Newbie Mafia 3 | Jungle Republic | Ovah. Who won?

[Ronike]

Look, Cello, I am the number one proponent of "skimming = scummy", however, this crowd is one of the longest winded ones I have ever seen. Not by a little bit either. Its humanly impossible to read these walls of text over and over and over and over and remain interested, at least in my opinion, and I am sure I'm not the only one. I'm not saying you haven't done a good job (regardless of side BTW, as this could be **** well one of the best scum attacks ever if this is what it is), but seriously man, learn to condense your arguments.

On the converse, skimming when you are forming a case against someone and quoting them is a no no. Rebuttal Frozenuframu?

On another note: I love the nicknames for FF you kept using, lol'd heavily.
Um... FF is just the most experienced DGer around. IIRC, he was here for like the second or third swf mafia game. I don't know if Marshy is more experienced than him, but he (and I for that matter) are far more experienced than Mentos or Tom. Just pointing it out.

 

[Cello_Marl]

Thanks for the feedback, Ronike.

You are right about the wall o' texts getting hard on the eyes...
I guess I've been desensitized due to all the reading I've been doing.

If I don't take your advice, then all I'll be doing is damaging myself.
If people aren't listening, then my words are wasted.

I shall try to be more concise.

On the other note: lol, thanks~ I actually kinda felt I was taking this too seriously
and needed to do something to relax the tension or else I would explode.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

8th votecount

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soaring-raptor-blast (1) - Mayling
frozenflame751 (1) - Cello_Marl
Cello_Marl (1) - frozenflame751
Not voting: (7) - Ronike, Xiivi, soaring-raptor-blast, Mister Eric, Sold2, -Hilt-, Tandora

----------

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch!

 

[Mayling]

tantantantandora

I lol everytime at Cello's post. ****, son, that was long! But I read it!

What is metagaming? Using information outside of the context of the game/system to aid the decision making process. It has a negative connotation due to Table-top RPGs (which I'm sure most of us here have played at one time or another).

Every time FF mentioned metagaming I was like "Uh uh, oh no he di'int " (cause i used to be a dnder..)

What I got to say on the FF vs Cello debate: they're both scum! It's SvS and not in a good way like SpyVSpy!

I have to admit... looking back, I guess I was grasping at straws when I tried to connect Delvro and Cello. He's slowly climbing out of my scum chamber. The whole "disgard Delvro's post" just stuck out in my mind way too much... so maybe I tried to force things to connect. I might go back and try to readdress what I was thinking but I'm glad I accused him, cause this is juicee.

I'm going to go back and address the things I have with Matthew, though. I'm pretty sure he's waiting for me. But really, I have to agree with a lot of what Cello is saying, especially with the IC FF trying to push his weight around. When I read his post, it was like he riddled his posts with "oh, god, u r noob" in an attempt to make it seem like he was discrediting Cello. Cello's response earned a lot of points for being level-headed. I wasn't positive if it was a scum tell or something the D-gamers did... because Xiivi did it some too, didn't he? (Not to the extent of FF, I'd say... but a lil.)

Right now, I think I'd be up for a FF or Raptor lynch. I think FF is wolf.* And raptor is mafia. So I would rather go for FF, in an attempt to slay a wolf.

*My reasoning for FF being a wolf is a tad silly. It's cause he called Cello a wolf, when all the scum tells I picked up from Cello was because I linked him with Greg. Why didn't he just say he thought Cello was scum... instead of specifically calling him a wolf? I think it's cause he was trying to rally the new people around here, calling "wolf" because wolves are more dangerous than mafia... so people might be quicker to lynch him. Make sense? >.<; I think it might also be FF trying to imprint his own role onto Cello.

 

[Ronike]

Yeah, the condescending thing is pretty common, especially amongst the old dogs to newbies. I know I've done it a ton, as has FF.

As for the table-top games, I'm proud to say I've never played one. I'm far too cool for that.

 

[Mayling]

vote tanny best sister in da world

wow i have a lot to address.

there is soo much here that is wrong >_<

my FOS of you just stronger so

SUPER FOS: MAYLING!!!

I don't know why you're doing the FoS thing. Is it cause you're scum and you don't want to be the first to vote for an innocent?

you cleared people for really bad reasons. you and eric were "defended" by greg. why would this make you innocent? because greg dosent mind bussing? he still wouldnt want his scumbuddies dead regaurdless. in fact, I FOS'd you in the first place because greg defended you. you said you completely understood my FoS on you, and here, you try and turn it around to make you seem innocent.... feeling the bad vibes.

You're right. My reasoning for "clearing" people does seem like I'm grasping for straws a little.

However, I feel this needs to be clarified some, for people to understand where I was trying to go with my logic.

It's not that Greg doesn't mind to bus. It's that he goes out of his way to defend innocent people, so he gets into their good mindsets (he ESPECIALLY likes to do this with me). Like I said, it'd easier to target someone who is disagreeing with you than someone who is agreeing with everything you say.

I didn't mean to clear myself because Greg defended me. For the intent of the list, I know I'm not scum. Therefore, I took myself off. I normally hate when people do that, but where am I gonna go with a list that says "it's either Mayling, Cello, or Raptor." So I guess, if I weren't me and someone else, the list would be "Mayling, Cello, or Raptor." Especially because Delvro and I defended each other. However, if Greg and I were both mafia, the fact we defended each other conflicts with each others style. When Greg is Mafia, he will defend townies to get in their good gracious. When I'm mafia, I let people fight for themselves, especially if they're mafia... So I'm not linked to them. Similarly to Greg, I don't mind bussing my scum buddies at all. Take what you will from this... You've played with me, so you'll know if I'm lying or what. but I do feel that's what my style is.

you cleared tandora because I FoS'd her and Im not one to "bus". the last AIM mafia game we played, where I was mafia, I hammered EVERY SINGLE ONE of my scum partners. so why do you think I wouldnt FoS a a fellow mafia member if I were one?

You certainly aren't one to bus. One time, we were playing, I asked you specifically to bus me and you said "nuh uh." Therefore, it certainly sticks out in my mind that you hate bussing.

I was actually thinking of the "last aim game" we played in which you were the hammer every single time. But doesn't this only solidify the fact you are scum in THIS game? After all, you ONLY voted for Greg when he claimed. There was no saving him after he claimed. Therefore you voted for him.

Going back to the "aim game", you only HAMMERED your scum buddies because you weren't going to get the votes off them. And it's not that you just hammered them, you waited a while to see if you'd be able to save them... then you hammered them. You only hammer/bus when your scum buddies aren't going to be saved. ^_^ So I guess this works against you. You say yourself in this post "Wouldn't Greg want to keep his scum buddies around?" Well, I suppose YOU'D want to keep your scum buddies around, as well... and that's why you waited last minute to place your vote on Greg.

you cleared hilt because... you dont have a read on him?

It wasn't only the lack of "read" on him... but his attacks on FF and the evidence I found against you and Cello_Marl that helped me clear him.

this logic just screams "anti-town player trying to set up a mislynch".
your accusations from other games usually tend to have a lot more beef to them (when you are pro town) because its your honest suspiscions.
here it just feels like your trying to make a really big arguement out of nothing, and trying to make it seem like super scum-hunting. I think maybe your attack on me was partially based off the fact that I FoS'd you in my last post.

If I wanted to make a really big argument out of nothing, I would target Mister Eric (for being sillies, inactive, not contributing). I would target (more heavily) S2 (for being inactive, not contributing). I would target FF (because of what hilt was talking about.)

Your timing, placement, choice of words, FoS, unwillingness to vote are certainly not "nothing." It's something, alright.

To a degree, you're right. I wouldn't necessarily call this "OMGUS" but your FoS is what triggered off my suspicions of you.

also I didnt "defend" s2. I just confirmed that he usually has an aggressive playstyle. I still dont like the way s2 has been playing this game. it's totally different than his usual approach to mafia.

Agreed.

I FoS'd tandora because she didnt have very much to say about the argument against Delvro. she seemed to be gone for the better part of the attacks against him, and when she did finally make a post she blamed her hesitation to post her thoughts on "the tone of the thread" which made her uncomfortable (i think... lost my quote )

Didn't you say you disliked the arguments as well? :x So... that makes you suspicious as well, huh?

then, when she decided to comment on delvro, she said she thought he might be a seer. I was like " WHAAaaAAAAaaaTT???". i didnt see anything in his posts that even remotely made him seem like a seer. however, if she was mafia too, she would have wanted to get the town off greg's back by spreading fear that he could be seer. makes sense right? i FoS'd her because it seemed like a pretty scum-like thing to do and nobody else seemed to catch it.

It probably wasn't a good choice of her to state her opinion on if Greg was a seer. (I didn't even realize she did it, and had to look for this post every time it's been referenced. >_< I finally found it.)

But you're forgetting this too: If Tandora was mafia, and she said Greg was seer... and if the wolves believed her... who would have died that night? Greg, certainly, correct? Because seer is obviously the most dangerous role to the wolves by far... they'd want to eliminate the seer. So if Tandora was Greg's mafia buddy, she would have saved him for one day. If anything, wolves getting a mafia at night would have been a win for us.

..........................I think I JUST realized why you're doing the FoS thing (after I had my response typed out ._.) It pretty much destroys my suspicions of you as scum. I'm not exactly sure if I'm allowed to talk about it... (The game is on-going, but Matthew is dead) so I won't. I am deciding to go ahead and post this anyway, so you can see my counterpoints.

unvote: Soaring-Raptor-Blast

Vote: FrozenFlame

 

[Mister Eric]

Townies, scum and werewolves,

I'm stopping by to say that I'm not lurking, I havent even looked at the posts on pg 20 yet.
I have two things crippling me from posting more on things atm:

Internet here at morehead state is not letting me browse the internet for long periods of time (and it's just too aggravating trying to do anything on here at times), and I have 2 big projects due this week. I'm not flaking out on my statement of putting forth more commitment, but as for today, I'm totally booked on school work.

My last final is Dec. 11... can't wait =]
(and dont take that as me not going to post till then; certainly not. ill be posting tomorrow for sure. and also I will elaborate more on my FoS feels too, so i'm not flaking on that either. just keeping you all updated)

see ya soon.

FoS: my school

 

[DtJ Hilt]

..Alright. That was annoying. Finally caught up on it all. I didn't skim it, however my attention died out several, several, times during the whole thing.

I feel both of them are most likely town, however, I'm leaning towards believing Cello is scum. His argument has far too many holes for me to put much faith in it.

And this is to be expected with an argument based on metagaming. I'm not saying that your argument as a whole does or doesn't make you seem scummy, although, certain parts I see as propaganda. But putting faith in an argument based 90% on his past playstyle, I can't back. However, one thing you are right about are his explosive responses to both you and myself, when accusing him. I don't like it, but I don't expect him to change any time soon.

Now, on to my other suspects.

vote raptor. You barely threw out any suspicions on day one, and immediately threw a vote onto Delvro after his claim. You came back to post when mayling put suspicions on you. You then defended yourself, said you were suspicious of her, and said no more. What is it that you were wanting mayling to do? I have a feeling that whatever she would do, you would say that that's it, and put a vote on her regardless. However, as others have asked, why haven't you voted her since you find her so suspicious? If you think they're scum, lynch the scum! That's how town wins, right?

Now, on to mayling. I usually find "FoS's" pointless, but oh well.

FoS: Mayling. It really felt to me like you tried to get town to follow your lynch pool. What I really don't like is how you limited the pool down. Eric, Tandora, and Myself, were all removed for hazy reasons. I completely understand you taking yourself off of the list, if it's merely a list of your suspicions. However, I don't feel that that was the case, you could have easily been trying to lead us towards a mislynch, or rather, lynching your other opponent, if the person was the other faction.

Three others were removed from your list with the assumption that the mafia didn't try to convince Delvro to make his post the way he did. We do not know what the mafia has discussed and planned.

In response to your recent post about why you took yourself off the list, this was your original post:

I'm taking myself out as well... because I do believe he defended me... and for all intents and purposes of this list, I know I'm not mafia.

Whether or not you took yourself out of the lynch pool because of this, I felt like you were, to an extent, trying to convince us towards the reasoning that you aren't aligned with Delvro because he defended you. Suspicions and a Lynch Pool are two slightly different things. You, most likely unknowing, tried for the latter.

However, I do agree with your points and position on Raptor. And in response to your question of "who should we kill, mafia or wolves", I don't care either way. If we kill another mafia, that means there are two people out there our seer can detect as scum. If we kill a wolf, we're one step closer to not having to deal with the danger of night kills. I really feel Raptor is Mafia, so I'm sticking to that for now.

Also, FoS: Eric. Not for you disappearing, just now, or for your last post, but for the fact that you FoS'd me and S2 because we're "quiet". I have at least tried to show my suspicions of other players, and looked for them as well. If anyone, you should be putting the FoS on Raptor, if you're putting it on S2 and myself. Again, as I said before, I feel you voted me in the beginning because you saw an opening to place a vote (you were being pressured to at the time), didn't see a huge reason to remove it and didn't look to others for suspicions, so you just decided to leave it there, switching it to a FoS on the next day, since you felt the same situation was taking place.

S2, talk more bro

Oh yeah, Mayling, about mentioning something from the other game. I'd rather you didn't yet. After the game has ended, you can mention what you wanted to, but wait until after then, since two people from this game are still in it.

I'm kinda tired so sorry if this post is riddled with me repeating myself or if things don't make sense @_@

 

[soaring-raptor-blast]

vote raptor. You barely threw out any suspicions on day one, and immediately threw a vote onto Delvro after his claim. You came back to post when mayling put suspicions on you. You then defended yourself, said you were suspicious of her, and said no more. What is it that you were wanting mayling to do? I have a feeling that whatever she would do, you would say that that's it, and put a vote on her regardless. However, as others have asked, why haven't you voted her since you find her so suspicious? If you think they're scum, lynch the scum! That's how town wins, right?

ok, first of alll. WHAT IS SO SUSPICIOUS ABOUT VOTING FOR A GUY WHEN HE SAYS HE"S MAFIA?????? "lynch the scum right? thats how we win" and such. i didnt honestly believe he was scum until he admitted it, then when he did, I felt I could safely place a vote without being a part of a mislynch. -__-
how much more reassurance did I need??? sorry for being the first one to see his post but i promise it was just bad luck.

to answer your question about "what I expected her to do", I expected mayling to just raise hell, and make an even bigger post against me with fake logic and insist that i was scum even more. she didn't really, it seemed legit. I wont be voting for her.

there is more i wanted to address but i will get to that later. no time

BTW hilt, mayling dosent think im mafia now. maybe you should go back and look at that game since you dont want her to say it. you might be able to see why Im innocent

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

..Alright. That was annoying. Finally caught up on it all. I didn't skim it, however my attention died out several, several, times during the whole thing.

I feel both of them are most likely town, however, I'm leaning towards believing Cello is scum. His argument has far too many holes for me to put much faith in it.

And this is to be expected with an argument based on metagaming. I'm not saying that your argument as a whole does or doesn't make you seem scummy, although, certain parts I see as propaganda. But putting faith in an argument based 90% on his past playstyle, I can't back. However, one thing you are right about are his explosive responses to both you and myself, when accusing him. I don't like it, but I don't expect him to change any time soon.

Thank. You. Hilt.

At least SOMEONE in this game is using their head.

I can't get over how ludicrous it is that I'm being made out to be the condescending bad guy, guilty of ad hominem and what not when CELLO is the one doing the name calling and personal attacking.

Criticizing playstyle is NOT a personal attack. Criticizing people's backing for their suspicions is NOT a personal attack. Calling people out for using manipulative language and misrepresenting a person's arguement is NOT a personal attack. However, Cello seems to have convinced some of you that this is the case. Get your heads out of your *****.

Cello gave me a condescending nickname in almost every one of his quote boxes. Cello is the one who is trying to talk down to me and represent as a bad guy. A bully. He's trying to buy you all with emotial appeals to the moral high ground. AND SOME OF YOU ARE BUYING IT. Classic scum play and he's duping the **** out of you all.

Cello seems to have you convinced that me using capital letters for emphasis is greater personal affront (which is isn't, even in the slightest) than HIS NAMECALLING.

Has anyone other than me noticed Cello's departure from debating the core gameplay issues surrounding the debate, and his new focus on how I present my arguments, as opposed to what they are? Are any of you other than Hilt going to wake up and realize how badly he is trying to strawman me as the guy who has crossed the line into personal attacking when the exact opposite is true?

I should have seen this coming though. Ever since people started complaining about stupid stuff like using "ugh" in their posts, I knew I was playing with people who couldn't leave their emotional baggage at the door and play with the mental tenacity to evaluate arguments by their logical merit, not by how nice the person is being about it.

I'll be up front and honest here. If you don't have that mental tenacity, you have no place playing mafia. Not with people who actually take it seriously at least.

So yeah, I encourage you all to take another look at Me v. Cello and see who is really trying to undermine the player, and not their arguments. It's largely obvious Cello is guilty there.

And of course, so as not to be hypocritical, I'll be working on a proper rebuttal to Cello's latest discourse. Expect it in the near future.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Okay, looking over the FF vs Cello argument. One of the reasons I believed Frozen, to be honest, was actually his tone. He sounded angry during a majority of the post, and I was thinking scum would react much more calmly, but as a townie, I could believe him being frustrated. Mayling(and I think Cello too) made a good point of Frozen "throwing his weight" around, or appealing to authority. I think he could possibly have purposefully taken an angry tone, just to give the image of this pro player being pestered by some newbie who has no idea what he's doing.

Vote FrozenFlame
My main deal with FrozenFlame right now was how he contradicted himself. I personally don't like Cello's use of the metagaming argument, but I'll agree that although it isn't exactly reliable, it doesn't mean that Cello is wrong. I feel that it was more of a general trend, than a precise playstyle, but yes it seems to fit how Frozen plays as "scum." More importantly, though, he clearly did use metagaming before, and just put it aside. On top of this, Cello made some other good arguments.

Charles, your posts are too long : (. Also, to answer your question, I blame AIM mafia and schoolwork. I just didn't feel like going through all of that with the time that I did have free.

Hilt, you talk more too : (.

Quick thing I caught right before posting: FF and SRB just now posted. However, I don't have the time at this moment to look at them. I'm trying to make it to a UK event.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Oh and a point of clarification for Ronike:

I am currently the most experienced mafia player still here at SWF if you base that only on SWF games. I participated in the site's first mafia game (to my knowledge at least, it was the first I'd ever seen on SWF since I joined the site, and it is also the first one in the archive list) Drab Emordnilap's SSBM mafia. I was Mario, nilla townie, and got NK'd night 1.

The only other player who I've seen play in a game recently that was also in that first game is Chill. Everyone else came later, Marshy included.

Whether people had prior experience with mafia before playing on SWF I don't know, so for all I know someone could have more mafia experience than I do here by having played forum mafia on other site prior to playing here.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

And since I got ninja'd by Sold2, lol @ your vote reason.

"Just because he's metagaming, doesn't mean he's wrong."

Really? Really?!

I almost WANT you guys to lynch me now just so you all can learn your lesson about how bad metagaming is.

I went to great lengths to show you the universality of the many aspects of my game play that Cello has tried to specifically tailor to his uses as "scum tells", yet you continue to eat out of the palm of his hand.

Cello is trying to convince you all that I'm trying to appeal to my "authority" to convince I'm not wrong just by virtue of my experience. This is a blatant strawman. I'm appealing to my experience to EDUCATE you guys. I've seen scum use IDENTICAL metagaming tactics to dupe sheepish towns into the most embarrassing of losses. I've seen new townies try to metagame to victory and fall flat on their faces and fail miserably. Metagaming sucks if you are playing with good, experienced players. I CAN maintain a constant playstyle across games and I KNOW this because I've DONE it. Cello tried to once again strawman me by saying "Oh look! Another appeal to authority! Instascum!" when the reality is, my point remains that I'm not saying you can't metagame me because I'm more experienced than you and better than you, I'm saying that trying to metagame me is going to fail hard, and IS failing hard because I've seen it attempted many times and fail almost every single time.

I really don't know what else to tell you guys. Metagaming is just plain bad. My role in this game was to try and teach these types of things, but despite my best efforts no one is willing to listen. If it is going to take the sting of my town flip to show you guys how the wool is being pulled over your eyes so hard it hurts to watch, then so be it. The town will still have a chance at winning, but you guys are going to have to step it up and get your heads on straight.

And FFS if you do lynch me, when I flip town, Cello better be the next effing play. If he's not scum (wolf or mafia, leaning more toward wolf though), I'll be ****ed.

Now back to working on direct rebuttal.

 

[Ronike]

Haha, you got nk'd in the first game too? Too good...

I thought Marshy came later, but my memory's a little hazy... I definetely remember when he was not that good tho (especially food court mafia... remember that one? The one where marshy lurked the ENTIRE game up until the last day, but we robbed you of the only sk victory ever due to my shoddy logic? Good times, good times...)

Still waitin on that rebuttal.

 

[Xiivi]

vote: mister eric

SRB vs. Mayling fizzled

Can all the people who followed Mayling's crusade on SRB (whether it was a vote or FoS), go ahead and explain why they did so and if they still have the same feeling about SRB?

 

[Cello_Marl]

Frozen has been skimming again. He paraphrased,

I personally don't like Cello's use of the metagaming argument, but I'll agree that although it isn't exactly reliable, it doesn't mean that Cello is wrong.

and entirely missed, two sentences down,

More importantly, though, he {Cello} clearly did use metagaming before, and just put it aside.

@Hilt You may not like most of my argument. You might disagree with most of it.
But, there is evidence here that must be examined.

1) What are your thoughts on his skimming through material to find support for attacks on other players?

2) What do you think of the use of his time posting appeals to our emotion by talking of the danger of lynching him, instead of presenting a defense to the skimming and defensiveness arguments against him and responding to questions from Ronike and Xiivi?

3) What of his hypocritical (not intended as insulting) argument that I am straw manning him (changing the subject to a weaker position, then defeating it and claiming it overcomes the other argument), yet it is clear he is focusing not on the issues which hang over him, but on his continued obsession with the dangers of metagaming (the very definition of a straw man)?

Frankly, I find it unusual that Hilt would want to try to shift the focus away from Frozen to Raptor until everyone's questions had been answered. You could say he wanted to pressure Raptor, but at what cost? Frozen's mythical "rebuttal" is always "sometime tomorrow". I sincerely doubt that he will crack and confess the same way Delvro did.
It's obviously stalling so that we lose time to discuss other suspects, and get a decent lead on his partner.

Xiivi's newer question is something that should be answered, but let's make sure we get the right play first.

I was open to hear Frozen's defense. I still am if he ever decides to post one.
But as it stands, I'll be satisfied when we all agree that Frozen is the correct lynch for the day.
Even if you do agree with Frozen's position on metagaming, then please at least acknowledge that the information he is slipping isn't automatically wrong simply by association.
S2 already has. Mayling already has. I believe Ronike has.
If you don't agree, then bring your reasoning to the table so that it may be discussed.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Tandora has been prodded. Mayling has requested replacement. I'm looking.

The I'm looking for a replacement 9th votecount

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frozenflame751 (3) - Cello_Marl, Mayling, Sold2
Cello_Marl (1) - frozenflame751
soaring-raptor-blast (1) - -Hilt-
Mister Eric (1) - Xiivi
Not voting: (4) - Ronike, soaring-raptor-blast, Mister Eric, Tandora

----------

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch!

 

[Tandora]

Sorry that I have fallen off the face of the earth. I've been very busy with moving Mom into the house. Every day I read the posts, but I'm so tired I know I'll just ramble.

It probably wasn't a good choice of her to state her opinion on if Greg was a seer. (I didn't even realize she did it, and had to look for this post every time it's been referenced. >_< I finally found it.)

But you're forgetting this too: If Tandora was mafia, and she said Greg was seer... and if the wolves believed her... who would have died that night? Greg, certainly, correct? Because seer is obviously the most dangerous role to the wolves by far... they'd want to eliminate the seer. So if Tandora was Greg's mafia buddy, she would have saved him for one day. If anything, wolves getting a mafia at night would have been a win for us.

In my defense, I didn't state clearly that I thought Greg was seer until after he had declared Mafia. I had asked if I should guess at his job, but he said no and I let it go. I think my problem is that I tend to project how I would play onto others. If I have a job in Aimafia then I try to hit at what it is for others. I think I picked this up from listening to May talk about Mafia before I joined.

Obviously projecting what your job is is a poor tactic, just because it will get you killed one way or another. My prime example is when I was Doctor and I stated "I vote Dr x because he stole my niche" during RVS. This ended up getting everyone targetting me. When I was almost hammered, I desperately claimed "I'm the doctor!" and they lynched me anyway.

As far as the FF vs Cello debate, I think Cello is putting a lot of research into his arguments so that tends to lean towards town imho. FF's rebuttal seems way too hand wavy. If noobs can claim "I'm too noob to know better" and that be a bad argument, then I think an experienced player saying "You're too noob to know better" can also be a poor argument. This is not to say it cannot be true, but rather you cannot depend on that as the basis of your defense.

VOTE FROZEN FLAME

 

[DtJ S2n]

And since I got ninja'd by Sold2, lol @ your vote reason.

"Just because he's metagaming, doesn't mean he's wrong."

Really? Really?!

My main deal with FrozenFlame right now was how he contradicted himself. I personally don't like Cello's use of the metagaming argument, but I'll agree that although it isn't exactly reliable, it doesn't mean that Cello is wrong. I feel that it was more of a general trend, than a precise playstyle, but yes it seems to fit how Frozen plays as "scum." More importantly, though, he(FrozenFlame) clearly did use metagaming before, and just put it aside. On top of this, Cello made some other good arguments.

In the second link I literally talk about the vibes I get from Kev and Marshy! Another contradiction to Cello's metagaming BS. Just because I don't explicitly say the word "vibes" doesn't mean I'm not discussing them. Analyzing someone stylistically is the same thing as gauging the vibes you get from their text.

FF's strategy for scumhunting D1 is the way FF scumhunts at all times. Read posts and attempt to deduce the whys behind them. Motivation is everything in forum mafia. People can say anything, and WHAT is said is often misleading. Figuring out why people take the time to post what they do is where the scumtells are at.

When things are moving slow though, FF will typically bring fresh scumtell material to the forefront and gauge what people think about it. Discussion is always key.

Kev and Marshy seem to be playing normally. Stylistically speaking, FF wouldn't say that their playstyles are out of the ordinary. However, FF does contend that KevinM's piss poor lynch pool is highly scummy regardless of how he presented it. His style was fine, but his content is way off.

No read on Marshy atm.

I don't think I need to explain this.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=MetaGame
Frozen, care to explain why you feel so strongly against Metagaming?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

ok, first of alll. WHAT IS SO SUSPICIOUS ABOUT VOTING FOR A GUY WHEN HE SAYS HE"S MAFIA?????? "lynch the scum right? thats how we win" and such. i didnt honestly believe he was scum until he admitted it, then when he did, I felt I could safely place a vote without being a part of a mislynch. -__-
how much more reassurance did I need??? sorry for being the first one to see his post but i promise it was just bad luck.

Because he was already going to die, and it was such a shift in your posts. You refrained from voting and putting too much of an opinion on him until he claimed mafia. At that point, it's easy to vote for him, and would (in theory) make yourself look innocent. However, you're showing the same hesitance to vote now, so it may just be your personality, I don't know. It was more so a pressure vote, I'll remove it if I feel like it.

to answer your question about "what I expected her to do", I expected mayling to just raise hell, and make an even bigger post against me with fake logic and insist that i was scum even more. she didn't really, it seemed legit. I wont be voting for her.

So you didn't see her as backing down? That's what I saw, and it seemed more suspicious than what you were expecting, imo.

BTW hilt, mayling dosent think im mafia now. maybe you should go back and look at that game since you dont want her to say it. you might be able to see why Im innocent

I'm not suspicious of you because Mayling was. I'm not following her. Do you know why she thinks you're innocent? It seems like you're just trying to take advantage of her point, and riding off of it. Just because she vouches for you, doesn't mean you're cleared.

@Hilt You may not like most of my argument. You might disagree with most of it.
But, there is evidence here that must be examined.

I never said I didn't like it. I said it was unreliable. Saying "you're doing ______. You did that before in the past, when you were mafia," I don't see as enough reasoning to lynch. I'm not going to vote him solely on that. Not that I'm leaning towards his innocence, in the argument. Or that you don't bring up good points.

However, a lot of his post following mine came off as him buddying me, almost seeming like... flattery? When most of the people are against you, when one person seems to share your viewpoint on a matter, taking advantage of that person might be smart. It seemed like that's what he was doing.

Do not think that my last post was me saying that I do not see FF as potential scum. You did bring out some good points, although parts of it did have holes. However, I will not put my vote on him when a good 80% of your argument is based on Meta.

1) What are your thoughts on his skimming through material to find support for attacks on other players?

Regarding your recent point of his defense against S2, I think what he did was, see S2 call him guilty as well as vote for him, and immediately saw S2 as someone to retaliate against. I don't really like this, so you do have a point.

As regards to his past skimming, I don't remember you actually showing us proof of him skimming your (or someone else's) posts. You brought it up, but I don't remember the specific situations. Show me them if you'd like and I can give you my opinions on them.

2) What do you think of the use of his time posting appeals to our emotion by talking of the danger of lynching him, instead of presenting a defense to the skimming and defensiveness arguments against him and responding to questions from Ronike and Xiivi?

I think he's annoyed and backed into a corner. Take what you will from that.

3) What of his hypocritical (not intended as insulting) argument that I am straw manning him (changing the subject to a weaker position, then defeating it and claiming it overcomes the other argument), yet it is clear he is focusing not on the issues which hang over him, but on his continued obsession with the dangers of metagaming (the very definition of a straw man)?

I don't think he's actually "Straw Manning" the topic onto meta gaming. The fact is that, from what I've seen, is that he's addressing your main point as you metagaming, and calling that meta invalid. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. I never looked up the word until just now lol.

Frankly, I find it unusual that Hilt would want to try to shift the focus away from Frozen to Raptor until everyone's questions had been answered.

I'm not trying to shift anything. I hadn't posted in awhile. There were a lot of posts for me to catch up through. I felt I should give my opinions on the matters discussed, as well as give my suspicions, and why they were my suspicions. I didn't ask anyone their opinions on raptor or mayling, that would be me purposefully trying to shift attention. In fact, I even had more to discuss about mayling than I did raptor. I didn't remove any attention from your argument against FF, it's still there, and is still being discussed.

It's obviously stalling so that we lose time to discuss other suspects, and get a decent lead on his partner.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying FF and I are partners because:

1)I agree with him against meta gaming
2)I brought up my suspicions of Raptor/Mayling

SRB vs. Mayling fizzled

Can all the people who followed Mayling's crusade on SRB (whether it was a vote or FoS), go ahead and explain why they did so and if they still have the same feeling about SRB?

Why didn't you attack Xiivi with the same point? In this case, he's actually bringing up the argument again, trying to get others to participate in it. Why does this not make him scum? That was your argument against me, right? However it doesn't fit me, but the argument does fit Xiivi. So he's scum right? No, your comment to that post of his was:

Xiivi's newer question is something that should be answered, but let's make sure we get the right play first.

I don't understand. Why isn't he defending his partner, trying to stall for time? That's what he's really doing, right? Not really. I can understand you thinking that he and I are scum buddies, that's cool. However, saying that it's "obvious" and pushing that it's definitely the case, is only you trying to find a way to discredit my opinion on the situation, since it doesn't completely support your stance.[/QUOTE]

 

[DtJ Hilt]

About Mayling's replacement, would you rather a DGamer or another newer player, Marshy? I have a couple of people that we do aim mafia with that may be interested. I just figured that since Tom was replaced with Mentos, another DGamer, it may be better to replace Mayling with another of ours, to keep the balance as it was.

 

[Xiivi]

Oh snap, I'm cello's partner and didn't even know.

Is it too late to jump on the frozen wagon or should I try to bus cello?

oh opps, nvm my role PM says brownie townie still

Guess we've got nothing to do but lynch Mister Eric! :D

 

[Cello_Marl]

I was writing this at 11 pm, but The Ultimate Fighter semi-finals replay came on, and my brother absolutely had to watch it. I'm currently using our tv as a monitor so I had to wait until now to finish.

It's obviously stalling so that we lose time to discuss other suspects, and get a decent lead on his partner.

This wasn't directed at Hilt, although I see where he thought it was from what I wrote.
I was saying that Frozen's lack of a rebuttal was the obvious stalling.

The major difference between the way Hilt and Xiivi had gone about pursuing their suspicions was Hilt's use of a vote. When I saw it, I thought it was unusual since I thought it would slacken the pressure on Frozen. But, that was looking at it from my point of view, and not Hilt's. Hilt has suspicions of his own, and I have mine.

Show me them {when Frozen skimmed articles} if you'd like and I can give you my opinions on them.

In post #279, I show that Frozen did not read my analysis of Delvro's math-based argument for why we should let him live.

My actual post beyond the quotes is just a rehash of my own quote in simpler terms (presented in an admittedly unkind manner, for which I apologize), and my own arguments refuting his claims.



At this point, the arguments against Frozen are mostly the fruits of my metagame analysis, and not the metagaming itself. You've all seen his responses (or lack thereof). Judge for yourself what it means.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Heh, leave it to Cello to accuse me of stalling just to pile more on.

I'm taking my time with this one to make sure I cover everything to the T. If I don't discuss every word in every sentence Cello will go ahead and try to dismiss my points by saying I skimmed, so I figured I better destroy his case against me by correct all the stuff he's criticizing me for: semantic BS unrelated to the the core of the argument.

Then again, it makes sense if you follow Cello's broken *** logic to call this scum stalling. Ya know, since I've been scum in past games and happened busy in real life and take my time with my posts, if the same is happening here I must be scum now. Isn't metagaming wonderful?

@ Hilt: Not trying to buddy you. Just wanted to commend you for being the only person in this game who has proven he can analyze arguments based on what's important, and furthermore, understanding how unreliable metagaming is.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

This wasn't directed at Hilt, although I see where he thought it was from what I wrote.
I was saying that Frozen's lack of a rebuttal was the obvious stalling.

It's obviously stalling so that we lose time to discuss other suspects, and get a decent lead on his partner.

This was the reason It seemed like it was directed towards me. Who's partner are you talking about then? Your sentence doesn't make any sense if you're not talking about me.

In post #279, I show that Frozen did not read my analysis of Delvro's math-based argument for why we should let him live.

Ah, alright, I see what you mean. What stuck out more to me was him not noticing that no lynch wouldn't really have a point with the wolves dead. But in a normal mafia setting, when it's 4v1, no lynch is the best option, usually, because we're all use to mafia having a night kill.

So to answer your question, I find it shady that he does seem to sift through posts, only seeming to notice certain points. I don't know if you're expecting more of an answer than this, but I do acknowledge your point and it does have some backing. This is one of the points I can lean more towards agreeing with, as it's based entirely off of his posts in this game, and not at all on Meta.

I'm really looking forward to his post, however, since it's taking him so long


@Xiivi, what's your exact stance on Eric? I kinda want to lean towards his lynch but I figure I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, again, until he can get the time to post. But considering that he wont have too much time, and far too much has been posted during his absence, I don't think that will happen any time soon.

@Tandora, someone putting more work into their argument does not necessarily make them in the right. It doesn't make the other person guilty, necessarily, either. They could both be town, and Cello's argument be false. They could both be scum, and Cello's argument be true, with us clearing him afterward. Cello could be mafia, digging up dirt to make FF seem guilty, not knowing whether he is of the other faction or not. Don't put faith in one's argument just because it's in a 2744 word post (lol)

 

[Xiivi]

Eric FoS'd two others for being low on the activity ladder after mentioning he was low as well.

He then said he would be elaborating on the FoS's when he has more time. I don't think he actually has anything to elaborate based on how he laid down the FoS's in his original post and he's just going to attempt to justify them for no reason instead of looking elsewhere.

Let's quicklynch him!

 

[Tandora]

@Tandora, someone putting more work into their argument does not necessarily make them in the right. It doesn't make the other person guilty, necessarily, either. They could both be town, and Cello's argument be false. They could both be scum, and Cello's argument be true, with us clearing him afterward. Cello could be mafia, digging up dirt to make FF seem guilty, not knowing whether he is of the other faction or not. Don't put faith in one's argument just because it's in a 2744 word post (lol)

Hilt, I agree. I tried to make that clear in my post that I didn't necessarily think Cello was right, just that his methods seem pro-town, but I guess I was unintentionally vague again. I agree with two anti-town factions there is a chance both are scum looking for a victim. Also, lol.

My vote for FF was not from Cello's argument so much as FF's rebuttal. As I said previously, if "I is noob" is a bad defense for noobs, it should be a bad offense for experienced players. Not to say it is always a bad move, but it shouldn't be such a major part of the defense. FF has used other arguments, don't get me wrong, but I feel his constant reminder of Cello being new seemed like a smoke screen to me. It's hard for me to change a vote because I don't like second guessing myself and getting into WIFOM situations. I'm still reading and analyzing so don't think I'm completely sold yet.

Eric FoS'd two others for being low on the activity ladder after mentioning he was low as well.

He then said he would be elaborating on the FoS's when he has more time. I don't think he actually has anything to elaborate based on how he laid down the FoS's in his original post and he's just going to attempt to justify them for no reason instead of looking elsewhere.

Let's quicklynch him!

Hm, this post intrigues me and I wish to learn more. Hearing more from quieter posters is always good. Sometimes it is hard to come back after some time has passed, see that a new topic has started, and bring up old accusations.

 

[Tandora]

About Mayling's replacement, would you rather a DGamer or another newer player, Marshy? I have a couple of people that we do aim mafia with that may be interested. I just figured that since Tom was replaced with Mentos, another DGamer, it may be better to replace Mayling with another of ours, to keep the balance as it was.

Why is Mayling getting replaced? I looked over the forum twice and see no indication that Mayling is leaving the game. Is something going on behind the scenes or am I just completely not paying attention?

 

[Cello_Marl]

@ Hilt I was talking about Frozen in that sentence.
"Frozen is stalling, so we don't get a lead on Frozen's partner."

Frozen is digging his own grave at this point, to the point
that I think we'll be making the right decision toDay.
Continuing to rant about it is just wasting our time,
so let's talk about something else.

@Tandora While I would like to pursue Mister Eric more than Raptor,
I don't think we'll be getting any responses from him.
He's not been on Smashboards for over two days now according to
his profile page, whereas Raptor was on this morning.
We'll get a faster response if we talk about him, instead of waiting on
two idle players.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Cello, why is it that when you say today, you capitalize the D? toDay.

"Which way do you think the wind is blowing toDay?"

You did it here too. Just something thats kinda odd to me.

 

[Xiivi]

today = omg super serious irl day

toDay = omg super serious mafia day time is running out omg the wolves r gonna get me

 

[Delvro]

Almost forgot my mandatory "Bah, I'm dead" post.

It's ok though, I died with a smile.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Mayling was replaced because she requested it. §teel replaces Mayling. Say hi!

10th votecount

----------

frozenflame751 (4) - Cello_Marl, §teel, Sold2, Tandora
Cello_Marl (1) - frozenflame751
soaring-raptor-blast (1) - -Hilt-
Mister Eric (1) - Xiivi
Not voting: (3) - Ronike, soaring-raptor-blast, Mister Eric

----------

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch!

 

[Steel]

Sup :3 Expect a post from me ... somewhat soon. still catching up

unvote for now

 

[DtJ Hilt]

yay hi steel!

glad you were able to make it

to everyone else, i'll be gone for a while, I won't be able to post until this sunday. I'll address any posts made after I get back.

Looking forward to seeing your summary FF

 

[soaring-raptor-blast]

Sup :3 Expect a post from me ... somewhat soon. still catching up

unvote for now

Hello steel!

lets tear up some scum! :D

 

[Steel]

ok

i REALLY feel that frozen vs cello is TvT and that the wagon is a bad one. a lot of the votes are based solely on WIFOM crap and i think a lot of you were intimidated by the mass of cello's post and told yourselves he must have a really solid argument to be able to write so much on it. its about quality, not length. and i dont consider a wall of posts from his other games a quality argument. when we find some legit scum tells on FF i will gladly hop on his wagon but for now guys

vote: mister eric

mister eric or raptor can die today

 

[Mister Eric]

Hi §teel!...and more importantly hi everyone else.

I'm going to try my best to organize this without spending all night on it, so I will give it some chapter names.


Shame on me
First thing's first:

no more excuses though, I'm making myself sit down, read, and contribute on a much regular basis now.

to add some 'substance' to the post...

from what I've been able to gather, besides myself, S2 + Hilt has been the quietest among us, moreso S2.

so for now
FoS: Hilt and Soldier2

In all honesty, this was horrible play on my part. I made this move because I hated being inactive so long and I felt that I need to take some initiative because I feel like the heat likes to build on me whenever I'm not vocal enough (which is more than understandable). In result, I skimmed through the pages looking for people that I felt, at first glance, contributed the least. These two had been contributing in small doses, but much more than I. But, as I've always been told, it isn't the size that counts and after reading through from the Cello v FF debate to now, I've noticed that both have gave their reasoning and their beliefs. I've actually grown quiet fond to Hilt's posts which I will touch up on a little further within this post. But for now, I'm removing my FoS on Hilt and S2.


-------

Things I've Learned and Responses

I've learned a lot about this game just by reading through these posts. First of all, Cello's breaking down of posts literally gave me a headache and I feel absolutely braindead atm. I sucked at he Reading portion on the ACT as it was, and it was really hard to get down key points just from a read-through that took much more time than I wish it did. I felt like an achievement should have popped over my head for reading post 278.

To some things I've learned through posts:

Mafia is a game of interpreting intentions, not just reading language and pointing out semantic errors, or trying to build bridges between entirely unrelated pieces of evidence.

I totally agree with this. And I feel that the direction I was heading in was towards the later half of that quote. I think the RVS got me on that path and I was easily manipulating myself to think that I should attempt pulling out what isn't fully there (with good reasoning at least); I was just trying to contribute by adding something new to the discussion, but what I've been picking at hasn't been important for the sake of mafia.

If I don't have a strong idea of who might be scum, I'm not going to act like I do.

Agreed.

I was very busy, often traveling on weekends, so the reason i was stalling wasn't because I was scum, but because of RL johns.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with rl johns in the way and I hope you all can understand my lack of good, hard leads and contributions. The week before finals sucks.

unvote:

cell vs. frieza is looking pretty TvT at this point, if one of them was a bg I'd say it was the green one.

I lol'd hard at this.
but what is bg? since you called me one or however it was used in my context.
And I'm surprised more people haven't went with your votes on me, and when I first saw your initial vote, I thought I was going to be in deep when I got to the last post. And well, I suppose I still am in deep with getting so behind in an in-depth discussion.

Hm, this post intrigues me and I wish to learn more. Hearing more from quieter posters is always good. Sometimes it is hard to come back after some time has passed, see that a new topic has started, and bring up old accusations.

I say it is, and I'm lucky that all eyes aren't on me and that this debate blew up the way it did. But I'm going to do what I can now.

------------------

Where my Suspicions are Heading

Like I said before, my past FoS's were poorly played and now looking at it, I indeed do not have a lot to elaborate on. I do indeed now have some sort of hunch and I would like to say first of all that out of the cell and freiza debate, I'm going to have to say that I was more swayed by FF's posts than Cello's. Cello, I feel as if you're grasping at over-exhausting us with information that although is relevant, shouldn't be thought upon so heavily. You kept bringing up previous mafia games and pointing out flaws within his play that just simply uninterest me. Call me an out-of-the-box thinker, but getting nit picky at every little grasp of information you can gather might be just blowing this evaluation out of proportion. There are more than one scum and wolf left and they're, and perhaps yourself, are getting the luxury of putting an overload amount of pressure FF and ignoring what I see as awkward play by others.

The awkward ones I'm getting to are SRB and Mayling. Hilt did a great summary on their styles of play and why they are suspicious:

vote raptor. You barely threw out any suspicions on day one, and immediately threw a vote onto Delvro after his claim. You came back to post when mayling put suspicions on you. You then defended yourself, said you were suspicious of her, and said no more. What is it that you were wanting mayling to do? I have a feeling that whatever she would do, you would say that that's it, and put a vote on her regardless. However, as others have asked, why haven't you voted her since you find her so suspicious? If you think they're scum, lynch the scum! That's how town wins, right?

&&&&&

FoS: Mayling. It really felt to me like you tried to get town to follow your lynch pool. What I really don't like is how you limited the pool down. Eric, Tandora, and Myself, were all removed for hazy reasons. I completely understand you taking yourself off of the list, if it's merely a list of your suspicions. However, I don't feel that that was the case, you could have easily been trying to lead us towards a mislynch, or rather, lynching your other opponent, if the person was the other faction.

@ SRB: Although I remember your style of play from a previous game, I'm trying my best not to let that get in the way of this one. But you were just so much calmer about getting pressured before. Now I see this:

ok, first of alll. WHAT IS SO SUSPICIOUS ABOUT VOTING FOR A GUY WHEN HE SAYS HE"S MAFIA??????

BTW hilt, mayling dosent think im mafia now. maybe you should go back and look at that game since you dont want her to say it. you might be able to see why Im innocent

As sure as you are, I'm going to pressure you a bit more here.
Vote: soaring-raptor-blast

I'm doing this because A.) Voting for either FF or Cello is out of the question for me until I'm convinced otherwise. Even though I overall agree with FF's position, even Cello hasn't done anything too alarming but try to bust someone; I just feel he needs to tone it down a bit. And I'm definitely not sure whether it's TvT. I wouldn't expect a debate of sorts being so lengthy but due to lack of experience, I'm unsure there.

B.) As Hilt stated, you attempted to prod Mayling but then backed down from it. I'm really curious as to why you had second thoughts about that. I think we all have gotten our feet wet already so I'd rather hear a good explanation as to why you're cooling off on the Mayling suspicions instead of it all simmering down without much effort at all but seeming offended. I know that things seem clear between the two of you due to may's sudden epiphany, but since the mass can't know what that is, I'm still going to be pressuring about this.

@Mayling: I agree with Hilt here when he says that him, Tandora and I were all removed for hazy reasons. It did seem like poor reasoning that Greg would defend me only if I was innocent. As much as you know him and as much as he was risking it all to try to get our alliance with him for that day, doesn't mean that wasn't still a bit of scuminess lurking about within that post. So I do believe you should take good note on his post, but don't draw too many conclusions on it. I'm never free unless I prove I'm free. No one else can sway that belief.

I'm sure I'm not addressing everything that I want to. I feel something else will pop in my head that I thought of along my read, but this is what I have for now.

alright i ran across a few terms while catching up that i will either have to look up or you guys can update me on:
OMGUS, bg, Occum's Razor, Flip werewolf and TUSM
ok guys, this is probably pretty jumbled together but ill more than likely post more tomorrow. im just sick looking at this computer now. spent all evening on this haha. sorry if i fail to make sense anywhere. night everyone.

 

[Xiivi]

OMGUS:
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=OMGUS

bg = bad guy
gg = xiivi

Ockham's Razor
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Ockham's_Razor

Flip werewolf = someone dies and it is revealed they are a werewolf

TUSM = a user on this site who has played some mafia games

unvote: vote: soaring-raptor-blast

If he flips scum then Steel (Mayling) needs to die.

Steel don't abuse the Aladdin card.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Alrighty, change of plans, seems I won't be leaving until later on today