Newbie Mafia 3 | Jungle Republic | Ovah. Who won?

[#HBC | marshy]

2nd Vote Count

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Xiivi (1) - Tom
frozenflame751 (1) - -Hilt-
Mister Eric (4) - Tandora, Xiivi, frozenflame751, Ronike


Not voting (6): Cello_Marl, Delvro, soaring-raptor-blast, Mister Eric, Mayling, Sold2

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With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

 

[Ronike]

mayling, I love that you took the parts where my accusations made sense out of erics post. Here's the whole thing:

Understandable reasoning, but what information can I give on the first day? First days are fun days, to me anyways or from what I've seen from the only other game I've played before. Not really a whole lot of information to gather.

Also, if I live long enough, you get to see that I enjoy role playing a lot to with the game and as of right now, I'm just enthused to watch in this game of russian roulette rather than partake in it.

Until I actually have information...

VOTE: Still no one

now then, if one reads the first few paragraphs, you see that he says "what information is there for me to gather? Why bother trying?" and "I'd rather sit out this game of Russian roulette than partake". To me, these are early indicators that he plans to lurk and be inactive.

Instead, you completely took out the parts I was refferencing and tried to make me out as the bad guy, and didn't even acknowledge that you took a good chunk out. Although this would be a good time to demonstrate a finger of suspicion (FOS: formal showing of suspicion without use of a vote), I feel it is a better opportunity to lynch scum. unvote Eric vote: mayling[\b]

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

nothing to see here

I beg to differ scumshy. Where yo curleh mustache @?!

Step up son. Whatchu got?

 

[Mayling]

Why are you ignoring the part when he said "Until I actually have information" then? To me, that's the part of his post that indicates what he plans to do most... wait for more info to vote.

 

[Mayling]

now then, if one reads the first few paragraphs, you see that he says "what information is there for me to gather? Why bother trying?" and "I'd rather sit out this game of Russian roulette than partake". To me, these are early indicators that he plans to lurk and be inactive.

I see these as signs of a newbie who doesn't understand the importance of rvs.

From what it sounds like to me, he thinks we're just randomly voting for fun, not for information. He even says "Russian Roulette" like it's a gamble.

Then he goes on to say he's gonna wait for more information.

 

[Ronike]

Yes, but that also implies he plans to lurk. Instead of gathering info, he's just gonna sit back and let others create the info for him.

 

[Mayling]

How do you know he wasn't going to wait until he saw something suspicious and act on it then?

 

[Xiivi]

I beg to differ scumshy. Where yo curleh mustache @?!

Step up son. Whatchu got?

You realize Marshy is the game mod, right FF? Tom's the dGamer who's MIA.

Why are you ignoring the part when he said "Until I actually have information" then? To me, that's the part of his post that indicates what he plans to do most... wait for more info to vote.

What you don't understand is that, "waiting for information" is scummy itself.

Here's why:
This game is basic, there is nothing that will affect this game Day1 ability-wise. The only thing we have is what people post. The only way to find scum is to look at what people post and decide what their intentions are. To help the town lynch scum or to lead the town into mislynches.

Mister Eric stated he wanted to "watch" for more information and not do anything until then.

What does this cause?

It causes active players to become the lynch pool, instead of all players being the lynch pool. How? Because it's the same five people arguing against each other. If all the scum sits to the sidelines and just come in and vote when these townies have rubbed each other the wrong way, then it will very easily cause a mislynch.

There is information. People are making posts. People are making votes. Their intentions can be drawn from that. By sidelining, you only accomplish the following:
You lose the possibility of making a slip-up (something only scum should be worried about).
You don't do anything to aide the town (which is working against the town).
The best way to play mafia is essentially one big melting pot of discussion between all of the players. When players distance themselves from the game, this causes the game to become centralized among interrogating the active players as opposed to interrogating the scummy players. This hurts town. Watching everyone else "play russian roulette" and not play yourself, hurts the town. This is why active lurking is seen as a scum tactic and why it will be treated as such.

So... You plan to just sit on the sidelines? Instead of potentially trying to create something to lynch on by getting a scum to slip up? Or voicing concerns you have noticed? Unnaccepatable. Thats lurking/coasting. A very common scum strategem.

Vote: Eric

This comes off when you shape up (or if Im misreading it)

mayling, I love that you took the parts where my accusations made sense out of erics post. Here's the whole thing:



now then, if one reads the first few paragraphs, you see that he says "what information is there for me to gather? Why bother trying?" and "I'd rather sit out this game of Russian roulette than partake". To me, these are early indicators that he plans to lurk and be inactive.

Instead, you completely took out the parts I was refferencing and tried to make me out as the bad guy, and didn't even acknowledge that you took a good chunk out. Although this would be a good time to demonstrate a finger of suspicion (FOS: formal showing of suspicion without use of a vote), I feel it is a better opportunity to lynch scum. unvote Eric vote: mayling[\b]

FoS: Ronike

Your feelings about Mayling are strong enough for you to remove the pressure vote you placed on Eric?

Eric, once you make an active effort to draw conclusions out of the game, look for scum, etc... instead of being preoccupied with roleplaying; people will feel better about you.

 

[Xiivi]

Must I votes? =[ </3

You don't have to vote, but it puts more weight/commitment to your actions/thinking and helps establish yourself as a player in the game instead of a spectator.

 

[Mayling]

What you don't understand is that, "waiting for information" is scummy itself.

More like, I DO understand that... it's just that:

1) I know Eric enough to be able to read that it's not necessarily scummy behavior on his part. It's kinda like how you guys are referencing each other's games; I've seen this from him before.
2) I'm probably desensitized to it because a lot of people in our aim mafia wait for information, and complain that nothing's going on even tho there is.

Obviously, the KY mafia peeps and you guys play different. Just cause we're not ragin' down people's throats for not voting doesn't mean we're not all pro-town in our own ways. You guys are going to have to be patience with our practices and give us a chance to learn our style. If you guys are implying that we must conform to a certain, dry style of playing... I think we're going to be in trouble.

 

[Xiivi]

It's not attacking your playstyle. It's attacking things that are commonly seen as scummy. Mafia is a game of actions and reactions. If we hound on something we think is scummy and you react with a defense that doesn't convince us otherwise, then we'll continue to pressure.

I understand where you are coming from, but take it personally in thinking we're wanting you to conform. Many players here have drastically different playstyles. We're not asking Eric to change his playstyle, we're instead pressuring into contributing. We want his thoughts (we want everyone's thoughts), and will pressure people into giving them. It's a good way to prevent active lurking, which is a common scum tactic. That's about it.

 

[Ronike]

Mayling, have you guys ever played Forum mafia? Not being sarcastic or anything, but you keep referencing games together, and I'm confused as to whether this was forum mafia or not.

 

[Mister Eric]

i didn't mean I wouldnt do anything until then. I just dont like the idea of random voting is all and it is hard for me to gather info on the first day. this is only my second first day as a mafia player and both times i haven't really felt like i had a lead on anyone. tbh it's more confusing than anything. if my lack of catching onto things gets me lynched then i guess i will be more patient before joining a mafia game and learn how to read people a bit better.
"newb mafia" is a lot more pressuring than my first mafia
like i said, ill "get into character" and contribute a bit later after i do my thorough research over day 1. right now, i just dont have the time (papers due in the morning).
the only reason i'm posting so much atm is because i'm super duper paranoid. never been voted on before.
and i guess ill end this by saying, im not sure how it's common for "scum" to lurk/coast because. i agree that makes them look suspicious. and you'd think that real scum would do the opposite. is it really that common for them to lurk?

 

[Mister Eric]

yes, ronike, the game was forum mafia. i'm actually still playing that one atm. mayling's out tho

 

[Mayling]

It was on allisbrawl.

 

[Ronike]

@eric: You aren't posting too much, this is what I like to see. I realize it is a lot, but you can never post too much in a mafia game

Day 1s are generally hard to not mislynch, but the fact is they do give you information for d2, which is why d2s are easier. Day 1s you have to set your standards a bit lower for scumminess (at least, thats my opinion, other vets are more than welcome to shoot down this thought) and vote for the scummiest thing that there is, which may not be much.

If by get into character you mean roleplay, then don't. Read my other post for why. Just seriously, don't.

Yes, lurking is common in scum for all the reasons Xivii put foward. Keeps them from slipping up, keeps info from the town, and 90% of the time leads to a mislynch.

@Xivii: Yes. I see pressure votes as being less important than voting for someone I would like to see lynched. Editing posts to emit important info is something extremely scummy in my eyes, one of te scummiest things a player can do.

 

[Ronike]

Ok then, heres the deal:

People constantly doing scummy things doesn't make those things any less scummy.

First off, the other game is ongoing, how do you know Eric isn't mafia in that game?

Second, if only for policy, the above is true. We let someone get away with that once. His name was Hando. He has self hammered as townie in three or four different games and his name is close to being a swear word in dgs. I at least will not be making that mistake anytime soon.

 

[Xiivi]

i didn't mean I wouldnt do anything until then. I just dont like the idea of random voting is all and it is hard for me to gather info on the first day. this is only my second first day as a mafia player and both times i haven't really felt like i had a lead on anyone. tbh it's more confusing than anything. if my lack of catching onto things gets me lynched then i guess i will be more patient before joining a mafia game and learn how to read people a bit better.
"newb mafia" is a lot more pressuring than my first mafia
like i said, ill "get into character" and contribute a bit later after i do my thorough research over day 1. right now, i just dont have the time (papers due in the morning).
the only reason i'm posting so much atm is because i'm super duper paranoid. never been voted on before.
and i guess ill end this by saying, im not sure how it's common for "scum" to lurk/coast because. i agree that makes them look suspicious. and you'd think that real scum would do the opposite. is it really that common for them to lurk?

"Scum knows lurking is scummy and will thus not do it. Thus the only people who will lurk are town. Thus it's not really scummy. Thus scum would have no problem doing it."

Assuming scum will not do scummy things and thus we should ignore these scummy things when they happen is circular/WIFOM logic.

yes, ronike, the game was forum mafia. i'm actually still playing that one atm. mayling's out tho

Hmmm...
Mayling, you said you didn't feel Eric's playstyle didn't exhibit scummy behaviour because he is playing similar to the game you had played with him before. Eric has not flipped as town/scum in that game.

You have either:
A) Talked to him outside of the game and know his alignment because of that. In which case you should not be mentioning it because the game is still ongoing.
or
B) Falsely defended Eric saying his play isn't scummy in this game because it is similar to that game when he could very well be scum in that game as well.

All talk about the game Eric is playing should be dropped as it is ongoing.

 

[Xiivi]

Ronike ninja-posted me. :/

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Mod note: Please refrain from discussing ongoing games, regardless of where they're taking place.

 

[Mayling]

@eric: You aren't posting too much, this is what I like to see. I realize it is a lot, but you can never post too much in a mafia game

Say this to Hilt, Raptor, and Tom then.

@Xivii: Yes. I see pressure votes as being less important than voting for someone I would like to see lynched. Editing posts to emit important info is something extremely scummy in my eyes, one of te scummiest things a player can do.

From my point of view, I was editing to emphasis the important part of the post. I didn't realize I was emitting the part you were targetting.

You have either:
A) Talked to him outside of the game and know his alignment because of that. In which case you should not be mentioning it because the game is still ongoing.
or
B) Falsely defended Eric saying his play isn't scummy in this game because it is similar to that game when he could very well be scum in that game as well.

I would defend myself against this, but seeing as it would be prolonging the discussion of the game, I'll drop it. I just linked the fact I've played with him before in accordance to how you guys were doing the same thing, and did something similar.

 

[Ronike]

The difference is the games we are referencing are over. Discussion about an ongoing game should be kept to a minimum, and drawing conclusions that hinge on a players alignment are a definite no no. At any rate, Mayling, he wasn't attacking you for it so much as just telling you not to do it methinks.

And about the editing, sorry, but between the overly defensiveness and that, I'm afraid I cannot take your words at face value.

 

[Mayling]

The thing I don't like about these "pro players" is they take your words and twist it to the extreme.

I didn't mean defend as in he was attacking me. I meant "defend why I referenced the other game." I realize it was a mistake, and I'll drop it. I totally forgot it was even on-going, because the game has come pretty much to a halt, to the point I have done so much to dismiss it. My bad.

As far as the "editing" and my "overly defensiveness" against it... why wouldn't I feel the need to clarify my actions when you're calling me scum for it? That's what I was doing: clarifying what I was trying to accomplish with the quoting. I'm not going to sit here let you twist my actions into something that they weren't.

 

[Ronike]

I wasn't saying you were being overly defensive about your editing thing, you've been overly defensive and taking it personally the entire game about everyting. I did the same the first time I played as scum.

And mayling, say what you want about the pro players, but this is an example of good play. The ability to look past just what someone posts and be able to ascertain why they would post that, what they mean, and why they posted what they posted is one of the key skills to mafia.

 

[Mayling]

I'm not you. You really shouldn't try and apply your own past experiences onto me.

 

[Ronike]

Ugh... defensiveness...

 

[Ronike]

Look, this isn't a personal argument, dont try to make it one.

 

[Mayling]

o_o I'm not.

I'm saying your argument isn't valid in my eyes.

How is "She's acting this way. Hey! I acted that way when I was scum. That must mean she's scum" have any sort of validity? I mean, I understand it helps explain your vote... but I don't think it's smart to assume that it should be true.

I mean, reference to what we discussed earlier. It was mentioned when someone replaces another player, it really disrupts the flow of things. Why? They have two entirely different styles of play for the same role. that's why I don't think your statement holds any merit.

 

[Mister Eric]

mayling, I love that you took the parts where my accusations made sense out of erics post. Here's the whole thing:



now then, if one reads the first few paragraphs, you see that he says "what information is there for me to gather? Why bother trying?" and "I'd rather sit out this game of Russian roulette than partake". To me, these are early indicators that he plans to lurk and be inactive.

Instead, you completely took out the parts I was refferencing and tried to make me out as the bad guy, and didn't even acknowledge that you took a good chunk out. Although this would be a good time to demonstrate a finger of suspicion (FOS: formal showing of suspicion without use of a vote), I feel it is a better opportunity to lynch scum. unvote Eric vote: mayling[\b]

yes, i did indeed intend to lurk on day 1. im not sure if I would be dumb enough announce that I planned to watch rather than partake on more than one day. and generally, I do. most of you seem to be doing a well enough job provoking people, me being one of them. But then again, what risk am I in just watching?

Vote: -Hilt-

Vote Frozen for using who instead of whom.

This is the only post I believe that Hilt has made thus far. It has both, got him under the heat and out of any involvement with the game. This, to me, seems fishy. Imo, Hilt was most likely trying his luck at RVS and succeeded with staying out of the line of fire for the most part. Smells like scum to me. C'mon, smell him!

 

[Mister Eric]

edit: put "and generally, I do." after the first sentence.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Yes Xiivi, I know Marshy is the mod. I just wanted to **** around with him. XP

Scumshy isn't in a very playful mood though it seems. No worries. =P

Anyway, good call out on the WIFOM Xiivi. To restate what he said, assuming that someone doing something that is "too obviously scummy", isn't scum because it would be "too obvious" is circular logic. It's the very definition of WIFOM. Don't get caught up thinking like that.

@ Mayling, in Mafia, sometimes your words are going to get twisted. It's not out of malicious intent. Sometimes, it's going to be scum trying to make you look bad. Other times, it really is a simple misunderstanding on another person's part. Sometimes people get overly aggressive and big bad town v. town arguments happen. The important thing is to keep your head and spell out what you see as it comes. TBQH Mayling, I think you're doing a fine job with that. Call what you see as you see it. Ronike has a tendency to push people and when he's town he can get scum to crack that way. Just as he shouldn't hold your playstyle against you, you shouldn't hold his against him. Which playstyle is more "pro-town" is debatable, especially in different contexts. But in the end, keeping a cool head and responding to pressure in the most legitimate way possible is how good townies play. Don't let an aggressive player discourage you at all, especially from just playing and enjoying the game. We "pro players" aren't out to get the new people. The whole point of this game is to acclimate you guys to our games here in the hopes that you'll stick around and continue playing, after all. =)

But ja, more people need to speak mon.

 

[Xiivi]

Thanks for the input Eric!
unvote: vote: -Hilt- to build some pressure

-Hilt-, Tom, and raptor all need to jump into the game now as Mayling pointed out.

We've brought Eric into the game now, we need to get others in as well.

 

[Ronike]

<3 Mayling.

Anyways, what FF said about the circular logic is correct, however, there is a bad habit going around, so I want to straighten this out with you guys ASAP:

Just because this particular case of WIFOM (the circular logic) pretty much needs to be instantly ignored and pushed to the side (yay for occams razor) does not mean every single WIFOM argument should be pushed aside.

 

[Mister Eric]

Newb here...
WIFOM?
what's that?

 

[Mayling]

<3 Ronike

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Wifom

 

[Ronike]

more generally used here as a term for an argument in which you are suspicious of someone because you think that they did something a scum would do.

For Example: In FFVII mafia, Frozen got a lynch started on a vanilla townie that got to L-1, but he never actually voted for him. The deadline came and went and we moved onto night with a no lynch (as per the rules of that particular game). The next day came with Chill dead and alliance revealed to all. This brought the day to a point called Mislynch and Lose (mylo: If town doesn't lynch a member of the majority scum lynch, and the scum get off a night kill, scum win). Towards the end of the day, I attacked Frozen with the following argument based on what happened to said player:

If you were town, you would have started the lynch on Chill and voted and he would be lynched.
If you were mafia, you likely would have hammered on Chill.
Therefore the stranger possibilities must be examined: the most readily apparent is that Frozen wanted to get Chill to a point where he could become an easy lynch target and get the town to mislynch him in MYLO, thus winning the game for scum.

This is an example of WIFOM. Now, there are many holes to the above example, but when added onto the many other points I had on him, made a compelling case. Until one of the mafia denounced the entire thing as WIFOM and town ended up no lynching and ending up in Lynch or Lose (lylo) the next day, along with losing important roles. Town lost.

 

[Tandora]

Thanks for the input Eric!
unvote: vote: -Hilt- to build some pressure

-Hilt-, Tom, and raptor all need to jump into the game now as Mayling pointed out.

We've brought Eric into the game now, we need to get others in as well.

I would rather hear from Tom first, since he's supposed to be one of our role models. But to help build pressure, I'll support your vote, Xiivi.

unvote eric, vote hilt

 

[Ronike]

Tom has RL johns. He's inactive everywhere. I'm sure he'll be on when he can.

 

[soaring-raptor-blast]

okay! sorry for the inactivity, but i finally got some time to catch up! ^_^
I read through and this is some of the stuff I noticed

Well, first of all I still consider myself a newb since I haven't even finished my first game I can link you to that if you want to see how I play. I guess I just don't understand the first day that well. How can you vote when you dont have any leads? I figured people would get to know each other or get more into character first. I prefer playing the game longer than day 1 >.> so if I have to throw out a vote I eventually will, I just dont wanna cause what kind of person randomly picks on people for doin nothing? If I do vote, I wont have much reasoning. It would be as much as how xiivi voted for maymay for having a Pit avatar lol. And that kind of voting just seems silly.

I just try not to conform with what everyone else is doing (especially if it makes no sense to me yet haha)

Must I votes? =[ </3

I agree with this. I'm definateley not a fan of the random voting stage, and I dont plan on participating in it. Silly, sporatic votes may help get people talking but I'm uncomfortable making them for reasons like "the players avatar" and such. so dont expect a random vote from this guy.

mayling, I love that you took the parts where my accusations made sense out of erics post. Here's the whole thing:



now then, if one reads the first few paragraphs, you see that he says "what information is there for me to gather? Why bother trying?" and "I'd rather sit out this game of Russian roulette than partake". To me, these are early indicators that he plans to lurk and be inactive.

Instead, you completely took out the parts I was refferencing and tried to make me out as the bad guy, and didn't even acknowledge that you took a good chunk out. Although this would be a good time to demonstrate a finger of suspicion (FOS: formal showing of suspicion without use of a vote), I feel it is a better opportunity to lynch scum. unvote Eric vote: mayling[\b]

"OMGUS???" is what this looked like when i read it.

Obviously, the KY mafia peeps and you guys play different. Just cause we're not ragin' down people's throats for not voting doesn't mean we're not all pro-town in our own ways. You guys are going to have to be patience with our practices and give us a chance to learn our style. If you guys are implying that we must conform to a certain, dry style of playing... I think we're going to be in trouble.

yup! we are all very different so you guys are gonna have to learn to not look for the same "cookie-cutter" playstyles, from other games, because we are a bunch of weirdos.

and i guess ill end this by saying, im not sure how it's common for "scum" to lurk/coast because. i agree that makes them look suspicious. and you'd think that real scum would do the opposite. is it really that common for them to lurk?

this is true. in a good portion of the games i played, the mafia members were usually among the most active, seemingly pro-town players (unless they were just really bad at the game) This doesnt make lurking ok, in my book, but I dont think I would base a vote solely off of activity.

Tom has RL johns. He's inactive everywhere. I'm sure he'll be on when he can.

I would guess hilt is just busy too. he's a busy guy...... (i assume) so I think we should give him some time.

also i will try and be more active,now that I'm caught up, but i plan on being cautious with my votes.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

You don't have to defend me, Raptor, I've been busy but not so much that I haven't been able to keep up with this, for the most part. Forgot I still had my vote on FF though, haha.

My vote was obviously a joke, but I have a question for FF. Do you have any suspicions as of yet? The only times you've posted you've either given advice to others about the game as a whole, or agreed with someone's action, such as you voting Eric following Tandora to build pressure. I assume you calling Xiivi out for being too helpful was a joke, but I could be mistaken. I'm not saying these actionsare necessarily scummy, however, but a bit suspicious, and I'm curious to if you have any suspicions of your own.

However it's not enough for me to keep a vote on you, not sure if RVS has ceased yet or not, seems it has. unvote

Sorry for the inactivity, guys.