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Q&A New to Yoshi? (or not) Ask your questions here!

Zylix

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Provo, UT
Such is how the world of improvement works. We hit plateaus and look for advice to find way around it. Maybe it's something that we need to become more precise in. Just know that the improvement curve will always vary, and getting stuck is only dependent on how you learn things and practice to incorporate them into the high level play.
The thing that is intimidating (at least to me) is improving the mental aspect of your game. The more I play the better I get at timings, spacings for certain moves and overall character control but it's frightening to play against someone who seems like they could 4 stock you while reading the Sunday paper. That feeling of "I'm going to lose and there's nothing I can do about it" is a huge barrier where overcoming it is much easier said than done.

Is it enough just to play against better people and you'll eventually adapt to their level? Or do you have to put all your focus and mental attention into each match? Cause that's exhausting :p

I don't think I could ever change characters, or even that I'd need to. I've been trying to develop my own playstyle and have messed around with campy/defensive , spacy and super aggressive and surely enough yoshi has a kit for all of it. Do either of you feel like you have a concrete developed playstyle with Yoshi? Or do you just do whatever moves/tactics seem fitting for the situation?
 

TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
Is it enough just to play against better people and you'll eventually adapt to their level? Or do you have to put all your focus and mental attention into each match? Cause that's exhausting :p

I don't think I could ever change characters, or even that I'd need to. I've been trying to develop my own playstyle and have messed around with campy/defensive , spacy and super aggressive and surely enough yoshi has a kit for all of it. Do either of you feel like you have a concrete developed playstyle with Yoshi? Or do you just do whatever moves/tactics seem fitting for the situation?
I personally do both, play others and put my all into a match. Yes it is demanding, but you don't have to do it all the time. Experimenting doesn't need full focus, it's more of having the control to do what you want. Like triple reverse falcon punch because you can. Doesn't mean it needs to hit, it's just doing to have fun. I personally love when my friends in the backround who watch going "Oh my god Tom, stop". It's a game, have fun. When you're learning, kill that "i'm going to lose" thought, it's not worth your time, it WILL hinder your play, and it's really not important.

That is a very interesting question, I haven't been putting my all into PM for a long while, and I think it's because life is too busy for me to care too much. I know I have a solid style with Yoshi, it's heavy in mental and solid punishes, micro situations galore. Thinking about that question though, I see that type of play in all of my characters. But I think it's all from how I play Yoshi, and not the other way around. Yoshi gives me the most options and allows me to act as fast as I process information.

Playing other characters will give you better grips on certain aspects of Yoshi; Because where Yoshi is a jack of all trades, other characters are masters of one. If Yoshi has even bars across all categories and even has unique categories to himself, other characters have more focused stats in certain areas. It's good to practice each category with each respective character so that when it all comes together, Your Yoshi can be ready for anything.

Hopefully that last concept doesn't go over your head, I'll try to explain it again if it's confusing lol
 

Feral Cadence

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
86
Location
Buffalo, New York
3DS FC
4699-7377-5328
While I would agree that Yoshi is a jack of all trades, he does seem to have better movement options than anyone else in the game. Or, at the very least, access to a greater number of movement options than anyone else at all times, due to his turnaround, J-shaped double jump. Ness, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Peach can all DJC, but Yoshi is the only one that entirely shifts his momentum AND direction, if he so chooses.

I guess my play style revolves around movement mixups, and trying to either bait my opponent or attack suddenly when they're not expecting it. I'm still working on getting myself comfortable enough with Yoshi that I have access to everything he can do, but my biggest thing right now is getting myself to play patiently. Luckily, I find great joy in not getting hit. :p
 

Zylix

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Provo, UT
Hopefully that last concept doesn't go over your head, I'll try to explain it again if it's confusing lol

That makes perfect sense. I used to play DK in brawl and my playstyle revolved around spacing with his OP tilts. When I would play other characters I noticed I carried over a lot of those tilt/based habits. The only problem is that becoming a master of a character's trait requires mastery with that character. I've put a lot of time into Yoshi and putting that much time into other characters seems like quite the commitment. It's probably more effective than trying to learn certain tactics all with Yoshi but it'd be hard for me to put much time into other characters when I'm so obsessed with improving my Yoshi.

While I would agree that Yoshi is a jack of all trades, he does seem to have better movement options than anyone else in the game. Or, at the very least, access to a greater number of movement options than anyone else at all times, due to his turnaround, J-shaped double jump. Ness, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Peach can all DJC, but Yoshi is the only one that entirely shifts his momentum AND direction, if he so chooses.

I guess my play style revolves around movement mixups, and trying to either bait my opponent or attack suddenly when they're not expecting it. I'm still working on getting myself comfortable enough with Yoshi that I have access to everything he can do, but my biggest thing right now is getting myself to play patiently. Luckily, I find great joy in not getting hit. :p
I have a feeling you and I play Yoshi pretty similarly. I love how fluid and versatile Yoshi's movement is. I've pulled a lot of my playstyle from watching Hamyojo who has insane movement control (especially on platforms). Unfortunately I've learned that movement alone doesn't win matches against stronger players, although no one ever suspects the old 'jump past them turnaround DJC Nair' :D
 
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Zylix

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Provo, UT
Yall need to get adapters and get netplay so you can lose to my keyboard Yoshi
I actually got an adapter today. I already have the emulator set up I just have to learn how to play on netplay. I can't promise my ping will be any good though :p
 

Feral Cadence

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
86
Location
Buffalo, New York
3DS FC
4699-7377-5328
And I finally got my new computer, so once I get an adapter and set up Dolphin I'll be able to join in too. Or I could use a wired Xbox controller... :p
 

TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
I actually got an adapter today. I already have the emulator set up I just have to learn how to play on netplay. I can't promise my ping will be any good though :p
And I finally got my new computer, so once I get an adapter and set up Dolphin I'll be able to join in too. Or I could use a wired Xbox controller... :p
Add me on the ladder so we can play, I go by TomBo
 

Feral Cadence

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
86
Location
Buffalo, New York
3DS FC
4699-7377-5328
I just now joined the ladder. I'm trying to figure out how to add people on it. I still have to get an adapter before I'll be playing at the top of my game online, but for now I'm just happy I got Dolphin running correctly without any big issues.
 

Zylix

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Provo, UT
I've been told (by players better than me) that I need to work on my combo game as Yoshi. I usually can only get one or two hits off of a grab or a read. As a Yoshi player, should I be able to get more damage off after landing a grab/tech chase? I'll get around 25-40% typically.
 

TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
I've been told (by players better than me) that I need to work on my combo game as Yoshi. I usually can only get one or two hits off of a grab or a read. As a Yoshi player, should I be able to get more damage off after landing a grab/tech chase? I'll get around 25-40% typically.
that's good, as long as you can start learning how to string those together. and also when to finish them off. Yoshi gets a ton out of platforms and tech chases. If you want to be more dynamic with combos, try more rising Bairs. experiment
 

Zylix

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Provo, UT
that's good, as long as you can start learning how to string those together. and also when to finish them off. Yoshi gets a ton out of platforms and tech chases. If you want to be more dynamic with combos, try more rising Bairs. experiment
It doesn't seem like Yoshi can juggle quite as much as, say, shiek. Except for at low percents. I'm just wondering if i'm missing anything or if there's a straightforward way to work on my overall punish game. I'm usually pretty good about getting punishes, but I want them as fat as possible
 

TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
It doesn't seem like Yoshi can juggle quite as much as, say, shiek. Except for at low percents. I'm just wondering if i'm missing anything or if there's a straightforward way to work on my overall punish game. I'm usually pretty good about getting punishes, but I want them as fat as possible
Yoshi works more in strings than major combos. Bair will juggle until pretty high percents. The thing that "strings" those strings together is tech chasing. Like against Fox or Falco, if you get 1 grab and then get 3 correct reads, each is just about a 1/2 or 1/3 chase involving pivots and/or a jab reset. To extend strings, I personally like to use eggs to keep pressure just after creating distance. Like if I do a string and end it with an Uair, I follow it with eggs so I can control their descent and get more stage control. Fat punishes come mostly from Fairs and/or DJC Uairs. Effective as well are Rising Fairs off stage (my favorite thing) and creating bad-DI situations.
 
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Zylix

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Provo, UT
Yoshi works more in strings than major combos. Bair will juggle until pretty high percents. The thing that "strings" those strings together is tech chasing. Like against Fox or Falco, if you get 1 grab and then get 3 correct reads, each is just about a 1/2 or 1/3 chase involving pivots and/or a jab reset. To extend strings, I personally like to use eggs to keep pressure just after creating distance. Like if I do a string and end it with an Uair, I follow it with eggs so I can control their descent and get more stage control. Fat punishes come mostly from Fairs and/or DJC Uairs. Effective as well are Rising Fairs off stage (my favorite thing) and creating bad-DI situations.
I usually can't string more than 2 or 3 hits unless they fail to tech. I depend a lot on grabs for punishes but I've been having trouble with people who DI from my throws. I do a lot of Dthrows but if they DI away, I usually can't get any follow up. Not even running upsmash lands before they second jump away. Am I not timing it right or can Yoshi not always follow up a Dthrow?
 

TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
I usually can't string more than 2 or 3 hits unless they fail to tech. I depend a lot on grabs for punishes but I've been having trouble with people who DI from my throws. I do a lot of Dthrows but if they DI away, I usually can't get any follow up. Not even running upsmash lands before they second jump away. Am I not timing it right or can Yoshi not always follow up a Dthrow?
One thing with throws that's really interesting. This goes for any character by the way. Watch yourself play in a recording, or just be aware of yourself in playing a friendly. Whenever you Dthrow, do you wait to see what DI they'll have, then act? or do you act out of instinct the very moment you have the chance (basically picking an option to cover and covering it regardless). This fact can mean missing followups all the time because you're just a tad too slow. Following up is also character weight dependent, where like samus and mewtwo will almost always get away from lethal hits if they DI out because they're just too floaty. (you can still land weak Nairs if you act immediately). Yoshi can always follow up on Dthrow on most of the cast, sometimes it's just an Uair, sometimes it's a nice string. The focus you should have is keeping momentum and knowing when to just tack on damage and retreat.
When you get strings, think back to what I said before. You want to think ahead to what situations you can create and how you can cover options. If they don't tech, that's a jab reset cover or an instant Dsmash punish etc.
Take this scenario for example:
Let's say you Nair a Fox on FD and you both land close to the right side of the stage.
Here's my list of options

Option1: Tech in Place
techinplace.jpg


With the RED CIRCLE being you as Yoshi.
The YELLOW X is the Fox teching in place.
In this scenario, You have a few options, but they either have to be very fast, or tricky.

Most Foxes in this case will (ordered from most to least likely) buffer sidestep, buffer shine, or buffer shield.
If you're fast (already L canceled and on the ground before they have the chance to tech; DJC Nair):
GREEN AROW
Dsmash before their buffered options are out.
Dtilt in the same time span works.

more than likely you have to be tricky:
WHITE ARROWS
(This arrow is the higher one) you can fullhop Nair into jabs for shield pressure, this covers all options on tech-in-place. This can push them off the stage, or force another tech situation. most likely not lethal

You can Shorthop into Fair, this covers shine and also sidestep if you delay the jump for around 8 frames. This won't cover shield, but is not very likely to be shield grabbed or powershielded.

RED ARROWS
(arrow turning from the left) you can do a short pivot grab to create space and cover shield and shine. Sidestep will outlast it 90% of the time, but you're far enough away to reset neutral.

(straight right) You can standing grab which covers sidestep (tongue is out longer than sidestep lasts) and covers shield. This can lead to a lethal setup. It can also cover shine if you eat the shine with grab armor.

(not included) you can double jab to cover/pressure sidestep and shield and clank with shine. You can pressure with dtilt but is punished by shine and a perfect sidestep (can act before you after sidestepping)

Option 2: Tech to Left
techleft.jpg


You have more time to work with in this scenario, since rolling techs have more vulnerable frames.

GREEN ARROW
immediate punishes.

These include:
Fsmash
Turnaround Dsmash
DJC turnaround Fair
DJC turnaround Nair
Bair
turnaround tilts

RED ARROW
short pivot grab, sets up followups and tech situations.

WHITE ARROW
In this case, you want to play a mind game. The roll is up and they're basically in a tech-in-place position.

You dash right and dash back left then dashgrab. This covers all wakeup options and is only beat by a patient sidestep or a backroll.

Option 3: Tech Right
Techright.jpg


The opponent usually doesn't chose this option unless he's been forced into this scenario and wants to use different options..... And/or they're panicking.
At this particular point on the stage, Fox's full roll animation will keep him trapped at the ledge, giving you more time to set up and position your punish.

RED ARROW
Free dash grab on rolling frames. Gimp potential

WHITE ARROW

Free Fair or Nair on rolling frames for serve-up to Nair or Usmash or possibly a Dsmash (low enough percents)

GREEN ARROW

a short dash up or walk up and tipped Dsmash can kill due to opponent's almost guaranteed bad DI.

Option 4: Missed Tech
No Picture necessary

Free instant Dsmash
Jab-Reset to charged Dsmash
Jab-Reset to DJC Uair string
Jab-Reset to Grab
Jab-Reset to etc.
This scenario exists with almost every character in the cast and can lengthen or restart strings. You just have to be smart enough to keep percentages in mind and know what your options are in each situation. You can get the knockdown with most of Yoshi's moves, knowing how to follow up will give you the fat punishes you desire.

If the images Don't show, they're also posted here:
Tech In Place: http://postimg.org/image/nv8jcjajp/
Tech to the Left: http://postimg.org/image/qig8lf2zf/
Tech to the Right: http://postimg.org/image/q3mptvhnp/

If I missed anything more optimal than what I mentioned, please correct me.
 

Animignis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
25
Hey guys,

I got my first video recordings in smash last week at a small tournament (15 people, placed 3rd) and I'm looking for some general feedback on how I might be able to improve. I don't have a whole lot of tournament experience so you'll probably see a ton of really bad habits. XD

Second Round (I think) WInners Bracket:
youtube.com/watch?v=lF_OmXuTKqU
Loser's Finals (WNDY ended up taking 1st in grand finals rather easily):
youtube.com/watch?v=cp4WqJjqES8

(I apologize that you need to copy-paste the links, it won't let me post them unless i have at least 10 posts... I promise they do not contain any viruses :p )
 
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Feral Cadence

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
86
Location
Buffalo, New York
3DS FC
4699-7377-5328
Woot! More Yoshi footage! There is a video thread though, just to let you know. I'm about to post a few of my videos there now.
 

TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
Hey guys,

I got my first video recordings in smash last week at a small tournament (15 people, placed 3rd) and I'm looking for some general feedback on how I might be able to improve. I don't have a whole lot of tournament experience so you'll probably see a ton of really bad habits. XD

Second Round (I think) WInners Bracket:
youtube.com/watch?v=lF_OmXuTKqU
Loser's Finals (WNDY ended up taking 1st in grand finals rather easily):
youtube.com/watch?v=cp4WqJjqES8

(I apologize that you need to copy-paste the links, it won't let me post them unless i have at least 10 posts... I promise they do not contain any viruses :p )
where are you from? I have a friend who uses/also uses the tag Bread
 

Animignis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
25
Woot! More Yoshi footage! There is a video thread though, just to let you know. I'm about to post a few of my videos there now.
Ah, cool. I'll go ahead and post mine there too I guess.

where are you from? I have a friend who uses/also uses the tag Bread
Aw man, I thought it was original. Rats.
I'm from the Cincinnati area. But I spend most of my time at college in Terre Haute, IN.
 
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TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
I got my first video recordings in smash last week at a small tournament (15 people, placed 3rd) and I'm looking for some general feedback on how I might be able to improve.
Fair warning, I don't sugar coat things when i review. Just remember that none of this is to hurt your feelings or create argument, only to point out what I see.

Ok, First vod: (I looked at WNDY one first)

I could tell you had some nerves going into it because your game was ridiculously stiff in the first match. The stiffness never really went away, but it lessened with each match. Tournament experience will grow on you and nerves will be less and less of an issue.

Your neutral is very stiff, and very focused on killing the 'impatient' player. What I mean by this is, when I watch your match, I see you going for reads and punishes all the time that involves the opponent being impatient. Lots of charged smashes and tilts and option coverage against an opponent that's too far away to care.

Your aerial game in the fist game didn't exist and it came out more and more with play, but this is what I still mean about being stiff. Yoshi is basically what I call a liquid character, constantly moving, flowing, attacking from every angle and making strings weave together from dynamic movement. Work more aerial movement into your neutral.

Your mental game is, for the most part, very shallow. It's very clear for an opponent to see what you want because of how you position yourself and/or how you spam the move a few times to azen them into approaching. This goes hand in hand with your current style geared towards impatient, unthinking players. Put more thought and purpose behind your moves so you can deepen you mental. Want a grab? don't run around the base of the stage and grab everywhere while the opponent is chilling out on the top platform. Instead chase them up, or empty hop into their range and drop back down so they push the fake pressure you gave them. Then you get your pivot grab and do whatever. Your followups are also a little shallow, you do a little too much watching and not enough acting in this case. Dthrow leads to IMMEDIATE punishes, Utilt is only one of them on spacies. You have to go for the gusto and get the followup as soon as you can. This means making a read on DI sometimes, it'll mean missing sometimes. But that's ok, it's part of learning and thinking faster.

Last point to this, you were making me cry with the first match, you had such an easy victory slip by because you didn't know how to jab reset. If Fox (or any character) is prone on the ground because of a missed tech, you can jab them to force them to stand up. Then you get a FREE ANYTHING. You had at least 10 stock-ending opportunities off of jab reset that you decided to uptilt instead.

Second vod: (round 2)

You seem to be playing better, than in finals (granted it is less stress and it is a match that happened before the other vod)
but upon closer inspection, your opponent just wasn't good. Harsh, but I saw that any time your opponent showed a shed of patience, he won the trade or outright stuffed you. You were playing the game relatively automatically and not really thinking.
As an example, first game you were wavedashing back and forth with pretty solid ground movement to trick your opponent up, then You GOT him to mess up and he whiffed a grab. At that point, you go in and wreck his ****, but you just kept wavedashing and let the opportunity die. I don't know if you weren't paying attention, or if you didn't feel confident in getting the punish?

The confidence thing is actually the next point I need to bring across, You need more of it. Both vods, getting followups aand punishes seemed to be a major issue, even though the setups and opportunities were open and free. In friendlies, I recommend just going ham and seeing what you can get away with. Once you have those options down, start to look at what you can do to set yourself up for those punishes or reads or whatever. You can break it down to little parts that allows to cover all options down to eventually covering the exact options that your opponent will chose.


As a final point, just think as you play, don't second guess yourself, and put purpose behind every button press. If you're going to do something, know the next 3-4 steps you will take in any situation. It takes time, it takes practice, but you'll get there if you want it
 

Animignis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
25
Fair warning, I don't sugar coat things when i review. Just remember that none of this is to hurt your feelings or create argument, only to point out what I see.

Ok, First vod: (I looked at WNDY one first)

I could tell you had some nerves going into it because your game was ridiculously stiff in the first match. The stiffness never really went away, but it lessened with each match. Tournament experience will grow on you and nerves will be less and less of an issue.

Your neutral is very stiff, and very focused on killing the 'impatient' player. What I mean by this is, when I watch your match, I see you going for reads and punishes all the time that involves the opponent being impatient. Lots of charged smashes and tilts and option coverage against an opponent that's too far away to care.

Your aerial game in the fist game didn't exist and it came out more and more with play, but this is what I still mean about being stiff. Yoshi is basically what I call a liquid character, constantly moving, flowing, attacking from every angle and making strings weave together from dynamic movement. Work more aerial movement into your neutral.

Your mental game is, for the most part, very shallow. It's very clear for an opponent to see what you want because of how you position yourself and/or how you spam the move a few times to azen them into approaching. This goes hand in hand with your current style geared towards impatient, unthinking players. Put more thought and purpose behind your moves so you can deepen you mental. Want a grab? don't run around the base of the stage and grab everywhere while the opponent is chilling out on the top platform. Instead chase them up, or empty hop into their range and drop back down so they push the fake pressure you gave them. Then you get your pivot grab and do whatever. Your followups are also a little shallow, you do a little too much watching and not enough acting in this case. Dthrow leads to IMMEDIATE punishes, Utilt is only one of them on spacies. You have to go for the gusto and get the followup as soon as you can. This means making a read on DI sometimes, it'll mean missing sometimes. But that's ok, it's part of learning and thinking faster.

Last point to this, you were making me cry with the first match, you had such an easy victory slip by because you didn't know how to jab reset. If Fox (or any character) is prone on the ground because of a missed tech, you can jab them to force them to stand up. Then you get a FREE ANYTHING. You had at least 10 stock-ending opportunities off of jab reset that you decided to uptilt instead.

Second vod: (round 2)

You seem to be playing better, than in finals (granted it is less stress and it is a match that happened before the other vod)
but upon closer inspection, your opponent just wasn't good. Harsh, but I saw that any time your opponent showed a shed of patience, he won the trade or outright stuffed you. You were playing the game relatively automatically and not really thinking.
As an example, first game you were wavedashing back and forth with pretty solid ground movement to trick your opponent up, then You GOT him to mess up and he whiffed a grab. At that point, you go in and wreck his ****, but you just kept wavedashing and let the opportunity die. I don't know if you weren't paying attention, or if you didn't feel confident in getting the punish?

The confidence thing is actually the next point I need to bring across, You need more of it. Both vods, getting followups aand punishes seemed to be a major issue, even though the setups and opportunities were open and free. In friendlies, I recommend just going ham and seeing what you can get away with. Once you have those options down, start to look at what you can do to set yourself up for those punishes or reads or whatever. You can break it down to little parts that allows to cover all options down to eventually covering the exact options that your opponent will chose.


As a final point, just think as you play, don't second guess yourself, and put purpose behind every button press. If you're going to do something, know the next 3-4 steps you will take in any situation. It takes time, it takes practice, but you'll get there if you want it
Wow, thanks for the in depth review! :D
And yeah, I don't need anything sugar coated, I know I've got a lot to work on.

Your analysis of my games against WNDY seems pretty spot on. He is probably the best smash player we have at the small college I go to so yeah I was really nervous.

My terrible habit of trying to bait impatient players is probably because I frequently play against a very impatient/aggressive Lucas player (my roommate). It works against him because he doesn't know how to space against Yoshi. I should stop relying on that. Ugh -_-

I'm also very aware that my jab reset game is pretty much garbage at the moment. For example, in the last game you'll notice on the final stock I had accidentally hit Jab2 instead of getting in a smash attack. This happneed multiple times and it was really upsetting. Would using C stick have fixed this problem? Or do I just need to be more patient with the jab buffer? I was really nervous and just couldn't hit the right inputs properly.

Overall, thank you for all the advice about punishes, confidence, upping my aerial game, etc. You have been very helpful.
 
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Scatz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
2,593
Location
ATL, GA
Why don't we have the video critiques in the VODs thread? It's relevant since that's where people normally post videos and ask for advice.
 

TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
Just wait for the jab animation to end, you have plenty of time to set up whatever you want
 

TomBoComBo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
544
100% serious question, how do I setup for fair spikes/meteors (is it a meteor?)
I need this hype.
It's a Meteor
The best ways I've been able to consistently do it are as follows:

On the Ledge:
If the opponent stays on the ledge until they become vulnerable, depending on the character, you can Dsmash them, or for ALL characters, you can Fair meteor to stage spike them. On the ledge, you simply shorthop fair, and you can ledge cancel if you need to in case they avoid getting hit. Fair to ledge covers 2+ options, no-choice option and Dj back to stage (in that instant of course). You can also punish the other options after ledge canceling back into a DJland or something on stage.

Off an egg:
You have to be a sniper and you have to know when your eggs are going to hit. You can get this setup off the stage or at the ledge, all you gotta do is be close/fast enough to follow up on it. If it's off the stage, you need to, of course, rising Fair so you can get back to stage.

On stage:
The only good setup I've found on stage is a weak Nair hit to turnaround Fair. I stumbled across this playing a friend. On Battlefield, I caught him with a reverse Nair at the top platform at like 60%~ (don't remember exactly), ledge canceled, turnaround DJC Fair for the kill. He did bang his chin on the stage on the way down, but that setup is an option and past DI, there was nothing he could've done about it.

Offstage: Multiple setups

Best one by far is off of dtilt. If you jab or nair someone so they ust get off stage, you can dtilt them before they grab the ledge. Then you instantly run out on them and Rising Fair to catch the panic jump. You can Rising Nair in this scenario as well.

Another is if you knock them off and Nair off stage (doing a shorthop then just falling with Nair) so they stay low and jump under&past you. Then you turnaround Rising Fair.

As a last super dangerous and stylish option, you knock them off stage, then you follow them with eggroll, hit them with the exit box, catch the panic jump with a Fair or Nair.
 

Sape

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you can punish bad recoveries, rising forward air is amazing.

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/385228
Hitbox cutting is bad so there is ton of random stuff afterwards thats still there.

The most i try to fair meteor is definately when your opponent misses a sweetspot and you just fair right at the ledge.
 

Feral Cadence

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Why don't I ever see Yoshi players using rising up air? I see plenty of DJC up airs, but at medium to higher percents, rising with the attack seems to lead to some awesome follow ups.
 

TomBoComBo

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Why don't I ever see Yoshi players using rising up air? I see plenty of DJC up airs, but at medium to higher percents, rising with the attack seems to lead to some awesome follow ups.
Setups are difficult, but I use them. Uair to Rising Uair Uair or Nair or Fair or Dair is a thing, but the setup only kills on WW and is hard to do when the opponent has good DI. The other Rising aerials other than Dair are usually better options for tacking on percent, killing, and creating situations for more followups. Rising Uair is good, but only in choice situations (the same as when you DJC Uair) and at low-mid percents.
 

Feral Cadence

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Do you think it would be a better option when knocking your opponent offstage to just go straight to the nair after a DJC up air string, then, instead of a rising up air to a nair? The second option tacks on some more percent, but gives your opponent some elevation to play with too.
 

TomBoComBo

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It really depends on what you want to do in the situation and who you're fighting. Some characters have to recover low or get punished, some characters will get back at low percents regardless of where they are. The real question behind that is, do you want to tack on the damage and harass a descending target with eggs? or do you think you can gimp the opponent (or they're high enough percents) or kill them with a Dsmash on land after the Nair? (if they're heavy) Options are options, making the right choices is what will give you each stock.
 

BRUJO~

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I've been trying to play Yoshi recently, and I thought his double jump had armor. I keep getting hit out of djc aerials, then all the sudden Im offstage w/out a jump. Can someone explain to me how his double jump armor works, and how to avoid getting caught offstage without a jump?
 

Scatz

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Double jump armor is heavy armor. It has a set value that gets reduced based on the knockback of the move hitting Yoshi.

Double jump armor does not carry into Yoshi's aerials. The frame you use an aerial is the moment you lose the armor.
 

Mumbo

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Double jump armor is heavy armor. It has a set value that gets reduced based on the knockback of the move hitting Yoshi.

Double jump armor does not carry into Yoshi's aerials. The frame you use an aerial is the moment you lose the armor.
Actually its "Knockback reduction armor". I think the threshold for each of KRA and heavy armor is something like 200 kb units or something like that. When you hit heavy armor with x units of knockback, where x > 200, then they take x units of knockback. However, when you hit KRA with x units of knockback, x > 200, they take x - 200 units of knockback.
 

Limbose

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Actually its "Knockback reduction armor". I think the threshold for each of KRA and heavy armor is something like 200 kb units or something like that. When you hit heavy armor with x units of knockback, where x > 200, then they take x units of knockback. However, when you hit KRA with x units of knockback, x > 200, they take x - 200 units of knockback.
Subtractive Armor is the more common term, but yeah, that's pretty much how it works. When x <= 200 or whatever that number may be, 200 is still subtracted from the value, ending it at negative or zero. Negative knockback, of course, doesn't exist, so that's just 0, hence why you tank through things. It's not cumulative, though, so if you're hit by 10000 attacks with 199 knockback during your jump, you're still good. Only a sole hit with knockback over the threshold can break it. It's pretty funny to jump through an entire Bowser d-smash at 70-100ish% only to be poked a little at the end and punish him. Since each independent hit before the last one has very little actual knockback, it never gets rid of your armor except at suuuper high %s.
 

Feral Cadence

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So, I've got an issue. I've heard that Yoshi kind of destroys Marth, matchup-wise, but it's honestly my worst matchup. Is there a pretty specific way to play against Marth, or are the Marth players around me just that much better than me?
 

Limbose

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Fun fact, if you d-tilt marth when he's just off the edge at stage level and he already used his double jump, he dies. It's pretty funny.
 

TomBoComBo

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If marth outspaces you, you take percent. If you're bad at DI and taking percent, your stock might be RIP. If you get in on marth, you rip him a new one. If you take enough percent from marth and literally just shield every time you're in Fsmash range, you'll live forever (obviously not forever, but much longer than marth wants you to be). Dtilt destroys marth's spacing and creates punish opportunities. Marth has next to no tools when dealing with momentum+pressure other than spacing. If you can outspace, you just win. Up close, he has grab and upB out of shield. Grab parry gives you a psychological edge when dealing with marth pressure, and it makes him question what is safe when being pressured. Parry, spacing and smarts are the tools to beating marth
 

Feral Cadence

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Awesome! I'll keep all that in mind, practice up, and let you know if I see some major improvement. I appreciate the advice, guys. Especially TomBo. I'm using Black Yoshi now because of you. :p
 

Duplighost

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Does anyone know the frames in which Yoshi's super armor on his Flutter (jump) is active?

More or less, is it active during the beginning/middle/end of the Flutter?
 
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