Q&A New to Yoshi? (or not) Ask your questions here!

[D e l t a]

Lucky that I have probably the best thread bookmarked

http://smashboards.com/threads/2014-ssbm-compendium-of-knowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/

Yeah, it always helps having some advice from better players. I've learned most of this game from reading and learning on my own though. I feel that improvement highly depends on how easily things can be interpreted, and how you practice.

Omg. This is beautiful. Thank you so much for this thread.

I can see the implementation but it seems like in the heat of battle it's so much more instinctive for me to shield or spot dodge. How do you learn when and where to bring CC into your playstyle? Also, what about Yoshi's CC is better than normal? Just speed or potency?

I used to think Smash was such a casual game compared to games like Dead or Alive but then I started snooping around on smashboards and became obsessed with how deep it is! That being said, I've discovered nothing for myself. I've just learned the discoveries of those before me! Much thanks to you all

CC is great when you're at low % as you receive less knockback and can instantly retaliate. At some points you more / less just have to predict if their attack will be too weak to send you anywhere so you can CC it, or if you should shield/spot dodge, etc. The good things about his CC as I mentioned, are his added weight and good fall speed make him stay upright and able to take more hits than say Lucas or Jigglypuff.

The game becomes very in-depth at high levels, which is something I love about Smash. Most things have already been discovered, it's the performance and execution that matters at this point. Just play around with the game and you'll slowly start to learn what's good / bad and when to use certain moves such as knowing when to attack or shield. That's what I did outside of watching YouTube vods

 

[Zylix]

Most things have already been discovered, it's the performance and execution that matters at this point. Just play around with the game and you'll slowly start to learn what's good / bad and when to use certain moves such as knowing when to attack or shield. That's what I did outside of watching YouTube vods

It's crazy to see players like aMSa who have insane control over their character and you think about what they actually have to input to achieve what they're doing and how precise it is. It makes you realize how bad you really are! Luckily I don't have to play against people like him.

In your opinion, what things are most important to really learn? (i.e reads, tech skill, game knowledge, play style etc). It can be hard when there's so much going on in a match and you don't know where to start when trying to get legitimately better at the game.

 

[D e l t a]

It's crazy to see players like aMSa who have insane control over their character and you think about what they actually have to input to achieve what they're doing and how precise it is. It makes you realize how bad you really are! Luckily I don't have to play against people like him.

In your opinion, what things are most important to really learn? (i.e reads, tech skill, game knowledge, play style etc). It can be hard when there's so much going on in a match and you don't know where to start when trying to get legitimately better at the game.

Well technically speaking, everything is important to master overall

In my opinion, these are the steps I feel all players should follow. Simply a guideline, nothing more, nothing less.

Beginner

Spoiler

Encompasses anybody starting out competitive smash
Learn to control your character and understand how your moves act. Be able to not kill yourself and learn how to kill the opponent. Begins learning many things about the game at a potentially rapid pace.

Intermediate

Spoiler

This is around the time players either continue competitive smash or drop the game due to its intrinsic, complicated nature. The game and its higher speeds approaching top level play either intrigue or dismay players. For those who continue, they begin emulating the playstyles of their idols, or learning what moves are good/bad as well as certain timings. This is where patient play begins and aggressive styles develop into a less carefree style. Certain followups and options become realized. Matchups are learned, but generally are constrained to whatever character(s) your training partner plays. Habits are formed, realize what they are and how to not get caught in a repetition.

Advanced

Spoiler

For those that make it this far, congrats. This is the point where many will become PR'd or able to compete with the top players in their region. They have solidified most of their gameplay and have learned advanced combos, ledge guards, multiple approach options, finessed their punish game, encountered & learned most match ups, and are able to make very good reads consistently.

Top level

Spoiler

This is the point few players attain, but many strive to become. The range of skill goes from bottom of PR to competing and actually standing a chance at winning nationally. Typically the top 1-3 of the PR list every season. They have learned to adapt almost instantly, recognize playstyles in a heartbeat, and can manipulate the game how they want to. Knowledge and tech skill are second nature. Execution rarely fails, has near mastery over their character.

 

[Jayhawker]

Hey so I'm trying to pick up yoshi, and I've only been playing with him for a few days now. What should I learn as a new yoshi player? I'm working on perfecting my DJC and rising aerials, and I've learned that downsmash is OP, but I don't know a lot other than those and tilts for combos and such. Basically knowing I've already learned those things what should I focus on next? Also I'm struggling with being edgeguarded extremely easily and I've seen good yoshis use the double jump armor to power through moves and then counter them with an aerial, but I'm really bad at that, so any tips on timing that or when/how to use it or anything would be appreciated. Thank you!

 

[D e l t a]

The way I picture Yoshi, he's a tank on the ground and a helicopter in the air.

He has a good crouch cancel so at low % you can knock back any weak moves that the opponent uses on you. Learn to space out your moves, be patient as he has a relatively bad approach, know when and how DJ armor works, and watch videos when you get stuck. Hamyojo will demonstrate uses of movement and practical ability while Zubat is on a more relative level between top player and mid-level, then aMSa can teach advanced movement, ledge guards, and potential combos. Primarily the combos only work on Melee cast, but there's a number of similar PM characters to the Melee cast, so translate how aMSa likes to start combos and approach matchups to PM.

By "helicopter in the air" I mean that he has a limited distance that he can travel, it's fairly slow, and after a short while will need to land again. Mix up your recovery: double jump -> sideb to get a height boost and travel far horiztonally. Land on ledges with UpB / DownB then go from there. Use aerials immediately after the enemy tries to attack you. Uair will beat out footstools if they try to gimp you with this. Nair is a good landing option / when they try to hit you. It's fast and has low end lag when Lcancelled.

Just play around with Yoshi a lot and see what he can do. The best advice I can give is to find your own style first, then work in some of the more advanced things that other players do. Simply copying top players won't get you much farther than the average player.

 

[TomBoComBo]

mental game is super important to Yoshi because he has the most options to work with out of all the characters

 

[Zylix]

I competed in my first tourney today and did better than I thought I would! I ran into some trouble with a Ness who would do retreating pika fires. I had to dance around them and if I got hit, he treated me to a dash grab, throw, Arial combo. How should a yoshi deal with such a tactic?

I also got beat by a Marth who was super fast and juggled me up and down Battlefield if I ever even missed an L canceled Arial. What's some tips or videos you could give to a blossoming yoshi?

 

[TomBoComBo]

if you get hit by a PKfire then you can either powershield it in the middle (it hits every 11 frames) and it's yours, or when he approaches you, you shield to grab parry him. Other than that, try to recognize the moments when he wants to PK fire and be either below him or jump over it (air vs ground PK). It no longer activates on shield, so if he's in the air, feel free to shield it. If he's on the ground, it's best to shorthop over and pressure him. If you're approaching the Ness alot, you're playing the MU wrong, make him approach you. be patient and pick him off with dtilts and well placed nairs.

As for Marth, you basically want to create the opposite situation where you're under him. If you get Marth off the ground, stay directly below him and eggs for days. Two Dtilts and a ledgehog can be enough to kill Marth. Early percents, you can cc almost everything a Marth will throw at you and punish him. Same with Nair OoS. Grabs are easy to see coming, cc the fair and the grab will be coming right after (1/3 things a Marth would do at low %s). Then you grab parry to punish or you shield grab which grab parries and gives you a free grab. Other than that, spacing is essential against Marth, in the air as well as on the ground. You want to space just outside tipper range, and wait for the moment when you can get in, or trade to get in. Grabs destroy everyone and Marth is no exception.

 

[qpMONKEYMIKEqp]

I go to my scenes weekly every once and a while and i do pretty well. Every time i go i get 3rd, 4th, or 5th. The characters that give me the most trouble so far is Samus and lucas. I only played the samus once so i really have no idea what i was doing wrong. the lucas i had a pretty good game against but once he initiated his combos i couldnt really get out. I didnt really try to use my super armor to get out because i was afraid to lose my jumps and get carried off stage. Any suggestions for those matchups. Also in tournament what stages are good and bad for yoshi... when stage striking i just pick the ones i like and dont like.

 

[Zylix]

If you're approaching the Ness alot, you're playing the MU wrong, make him approach you. be patient and pick him off with dtilts and well placed nairs.

If he just play a campy/spacing game, should I try to out space him with egg toss/ shffl's when he gets close?

As for Marth, you basically want to create the opposite situation where you're under him. If you get Marth off the ground, stay directly below him and eggs for days. Two Dtilts and a ledgehog can be enough to kill Marth. Early percents, you can cc almost everything a Marth will throw at you and punish him.

As yoshi, if you space a bit out of range of his attacks and he whiffs, what are the best/safest ways to punish in your opinions?

Other than that, spacing is essential against Marth, in the air as well as on the ground. You want to space just outside tipper range, and wait for the moment when you can get in, or trade to get in. Grabs destroy everyone and Marth is no exception.

Do you do anything specifically as Yoshi to space (i.e retreating pivot grabs, reverseDJC aerials, etc) of more generic dashdancing/wavedashing stuffs?

 

[TomBoComBo]

If he just play a campy/spacing game, should I try to out space him with egg toss/ shffl's when he gets close?

As yoshi, if you space a bit out of range of his attacks and he whiffs, what are the best/safest ways to punish in your opinions?

Do you do anything specifically as Yoshi to space (i.e retreating pivot grabs, reverseDJC aerials, etc) of more generic dashdancing/wavedashing stuffs?

1: eggs are always good and so are egglays when he's in range. If he wants to get close you have fairs nairs grabs bairs dtilts anything that you know you can safely do. Ness can't camp well unless he's just trying to wall you out with fires (which you can get inside that range really fast.) if he's trying to camp any other way (thunders or blasts) you can run up and grab him. You want him to approach you, simple as that, and Ness's safest approach is one after a PKfire.

2:Spacing just outside his stuff in the air allows for you to get to the ground faster and/or maneuver more (since marth's horizontal fall isn't as fast or as far as Yoshi's), You can punish in the air by either eating a move with DJ or spacing for an egglay or a fair. If you're both in the air, you want to be diagonally above him just outside of fair range. On the ground, you get a ton of mileage out of dtilts, grabs, and dashattacks (into a grab parry) when outspacing an Fsmash. Once you past tipper range, you can wale on marth with jabs and fairs and nairs and anything you think you can get away with without getting grabbed.

3: retreating pivot grabs are amazing in all matchups so I will always recommend those. The real key when it comes to spacing is percentage awareness and knowing what the opponent wants and when. If you present yourself in tipper range when you're at mid-high percents, the Marth will try to catch you. Prediction and calculations on when it's worth trading or when you can go in or when you can challenge is one thing that will help every MU with spacing and other aspects.
Essentially in this, know where the tip of marth's blade will be at any given moment (it helps to pick up Marth yourself, this would obviously help in the MU and it will help your Yoshi spacing as well as any other spacing with anyone else). Just memorize the tip zone and give the opponent opportunities to swing and punish them for doing so.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I go to my scenes weekly every once and a while and i do pretty well. Every time i go i get 3rd, 4th, or 5th. The characters that give me the most trouble so far is Samus and lucas. I only played the samus once so i really have no idea what i was doing wrong. the lucas i had a pretty good game against but once he initiated his combos i couldnt really get out. I didnt really try to use my super armor to get out because i was afraid to lose my jumps and get carried off stage. Any suggestions for those matchups. Also in tournament what stages are good and bad for yoshi... when stage striking i just pick the ones i like and dont like.

If you are confident in your game, picking stages that you like and banning ones you don't like is a good start. You do want to start learning how characters kill and that will help with stage choice. (like never let marth take you to warioware). Lucas v Yoshi is an even MU because combos on each other are equally threatening, although Lucas has to work at least twice as hard for his. My advice is watch for Nair and be wary of your percents and when he wants an upthrow. And most importantly, grab him. If you get the grab, you get a FREE upsmash every time. If he DI's forward, it's a free chaingrab or dash Dsmash or dash Fsmash. If you grab him, you can get ludicrous damage off for almost no effort.

Samus you have to be more active in your spacing and be aware of how her moves work. Don't be conned into rolling behind her because she gets a free downsmash from that. Missiles are missiles, you can powershield them, clank them, eggroll through them (only mid-air rolling off a platform), or weave through them. Dtilt puts in work and aim to kill off the top or catch a low input for bad DI. Samus has a lot of tools to keep you away and a lot of tools to punish you for getting close. On the ground, don't get too close on low percents, the Samus will want cc into something. In the air you want to be above her, anywhere else you're at a disadvantage (except directly under her). Grabs don't lead to much if the Samus is good with DI and immediately smartbombs or jumps, but if it's always the same option, you can force the jump and doublejump Uair to follow. Always be wary of Samus's Nair, that's why you want to be above.

If I missed anything or need to clarify anything, just let me know

 

[Feral Cadence]

I've got my first tournament this Saturday since I picked up Yoshi, and I got together with a few people to practice. Apparently I convinced them that Yoshi is broken in 3.5. I've seen people pretty polarized on the issue online, either saying he's a 3.0 character in a 3.5 environment or that he's still too difficult to play, and without enough to show for it.

Personally, I think he's an amazing, but technically demanding character. I just wanted to ask about whether people who think he's broken just don't know the matchup, or whether he really does have too many options.

That being said, wish me luck! I'm the only Yoshi player in my area, and I'd hate to set a bad example.

 

[qpMONKEYMIKEqp]

I've got my first tournament this Saturday since I picked up Yoshi, and I got together with a few people to practice. Apparently I convinced them that Yoshi is broken in 3.5. I've seen people pretty polarized on the issue online, either saying he's a 3.0 character in a 3.5 environment or that he's still too difficult to play, and without enough to show for it.

Personally, I think he's an amazing, but technically demanding character. I just wanted to ask about whether people who think he's broken just don't know the matchup, or whether he really does have too many options.

That being said, wish me luck! I'm the only Yoshi player in my area, and I'd hate to set a bad example.

I would never go as far as to say that yoshi is broken by any means. I am no expert in the way of the yoshi but i would say im pretty good. In my scene i rarely show up and play but i have a solid group of friends that i play agains every week. At my scene i win 2-0 on everyone except the elite. I feel that my yoshi game is a gimmick to most people because they dont know the matchup. when i fall off the stage and rising nair them and their jaw drops they def dont know the matchup.

But the top players and my group of friends see everything coming. they know im going to punish off the stage and if i grab you get ready for the ride. My group of friends would also say yoshi is broken but if you walk out to your scene you will find out he is not but he is well versed.

Thank god for PM because i love yoshi and PM yoshi is so fun =]

 

[Zylix]

In an free trade situation, such as the opponent whiffing or you predicting a roll, what are the best ways to punish as yoshi? At high percents, dsmash can kill easy, but at low percents, just dsmashing/tilting seems like a waste of opportunity. What move/strings should I get in the habit of punishing with?

My group of friends would also say yoshi is broken but if you walk out to your scene you will find out he is not but he is well versed.

Thank god for PM because i love yoshi and PM yoshi is so fun =]

I thought Yoshi was broken until I started going to my scene's weeklies. He's not broken, but he does have an insane amount of options in pretty much any situation. There's almost always something you can do to counter what the opponent is doing.

PM Yoshi is the reason I only really play PM. He's got so much potential and tech, and I love how unique his playstyle is compared to all the boring spacies/marths.

 

[D e l t a]

Lucas main here and my training partner is a Yoshi main

From the extensive, countless hours into playing Lucas Vs Yoshi, here's what I know

Lucas gets pretty free combos as long as they're frame tight. If you even get a frame of no hitstun, Yoshi can DJ armor out. Nothing stops his armor from Lucas, but we're fast and can get footstools if you aren't paying attention. DI his Dthrow away only after 40%. At low % it's harder to combo off no DI. You might eat 20-40% but it's better than 50+ from backwards DI. If they DACUS when DI'ing behind, you can cancel knockback with the jump. Same for no DI

Yoshi combos I'm slightly unfamiliar with, but Usmash works well in the MU, combos into itself at low %, and kills past 120% (Lucas is a light weight fast faller). Uthrow -> Uair is pretty much guaranteed. Dthrow is good at low % and can get a free Utilt / Upsmash

In neutral, Nair thru PKF and space out tilts. CC everything. It's very hard for Lucas to combo a crouching Yoshi. Avoid his grab. Lucas combos aren't as bad from Dthrow on Yoshi as with other chars, but this takes away your crouch cancel and helps a ton. Stay calm under pressure.

Use eggs against his UpB (always works if you hit) and try to knock him out of the air. Grab ledge and force tether -> punish accordingly. He can't tether drop -> magnet anymore nor does he have more than 1 tether. If you can't immediately stop UpB in the air, wait for him to land and punish the 20 frame special lag.

Anything I may have missed let me know. Feel free to ask any questions you have

 

[Osmosis124]

What do I do after Egg Lay?
How do I recover effectively?
Are the back and forward throw just for getting people off stage?
Also how's well does he match up against Lucario, Link, and Falcon?

 

[TomBoComBo]

What do I do after Egg Lay?
How do I recover effectively?
Are the back and forward throw just for getting people off stage?
Also how's well does he match up against Lucario, Link, and Falcon?

Egglay depends on the experience and the person whom you're playing against. It's safe to immediately follow egglay with Bair or a thrown egg, then duck right under it so you can immediately punish or crouch cancel anything the opponent might do.

Recovering is situational, you want to be unpredictable at all times, but also know when it is and isn't safe to trade. I, more often than not, will just Dj past the opponent and just tank whatever they want to do, this lets you retaliate and safely get back (unless of course you're at high percents). The other options are to down b to ledge (make sure not to hold down or you're dead) or to eggroll back to stage. Eggrolling is good for longer distances and lets you be more tricky with how you get back, it's not always the safest option, but it can help you get back in a pinch and can even reverse the situation with it's hitboxes. DownB to ledge is only safe if you're comfortable with throwing eggs while off the stage. I have played and can see how effective that is to get back, but I personally just like to keep my armor so i can out-maneuver people (I'm all mental). If you get a habit of downBing to ledgem then you'll get punished by those who notice.

back and forward throws are actually only even 'meh' in certain matchups, they send the opponent up above you to easily double jump over you and back to stage. Yoshi wants to be either above-diagonal most of the cast, or directly below (with hitstun). I don't use either, if I do, it's backthrow because the angle isn't as bad and you can rising Bair to cover options faster. Dthrow and Uthrow just give you way more to work with and are generally just better.

Lucario is pretty even, Make your DI random and you'll get out of most stuff, he's tricky to hit but can be destroyed with combos. Both characters are more or less combo food to each-other. with the exception that Yoshi's Nair stuffs lucario's recovery. Keep that in mind.

Link is tough because he controls space incredibly well. Getting in on him and taking his space is the real challenge, powershielding is my trick to the MU. Once you get in on link, you can destroy him, his weight makes for perfect combo food. Link is chain grabbable if he DIs away (free Usmash or Uair string if he doesn't). Try and see when his opportunity to UpB you is and just shield, it only hits once and deactivates, so you get a punish any time.

Falocn used to be a joke in 3.0 but is slightly tougher in 3.5. He can combo you to death like any other character, but you can beat him in any place, on the ground, in the air, with positioning. He's super easy to tech chase, and gimping him is cake. Yoshi can punish a non-sweetspot with a Dair or Dsmash, or you can offstage Bair or Nair him then ledgehog.

Anything I missed or need to clarify?

 

[Zylix]

I've been running into issues trying to approach and chase as yoshi. I tend to approach with aerials such as shffld fair or nairs, but if the opponent dashes or rolls back they can punish me with a dash attack or grab or pretty much whatever they want Wwant.hat should I do to stop this from happening?

Also yoshis down throw is great for setting up combos, but what do you do if you down throw and they di away. It's usually too far out for me with follow it up with anything except maybe an egg toss. Note: This is primarily against my sparring partner who plays snake.

 

[Osmosis124]

What do I chain grab link with?

 

[TomBoComBo]

I've been running into issues trying to approach and chase as yoshi. I tend to approach with aerials such as shffld fair or nairs, but if the opponent dashes or rolls back they can punish me with a dash attack or grab or pretty much whatever they want Wwant.hat should I do to stop this from happening?

Also yoshis down throw is great for setting up combos, but what do you do if you down throw and they di away. It's usually too far out for me with follow it up with anything except maybe an egg toss. Note: This is primarily against my sparring partner who plays snake.

Approaching as Yoshi is an all or nothing gambit. It can be incredibly risky and unsafe, or you can put hefty amount of thought behind what you want to do and make the approach unbelievably safe. Being an all-mental player, I put a lot of thought behind every input so I can simply outsmart my opponent. Yoshi is my main because he has the most options in PM, simple as that. When I approach, (highly matchup dependent) Fairs or Nairs or Bairs L-canceling into jabs does great to create pressure and space. If they shield the Fair, the jabs will keep a normal shield at bay; powershield grab is the counter to that. Nair doesn't put enough pressure on the shield unless sweetspotted (which is not ideal for approaching un less it's a DJC) so you need to be crafty on how your spacing is on it. You might want to try to pressure the shield higher up and float over them to pivot grab, smash or b-reverse egglay. Bair is a tool that you can use often, but you have to remember that your hurtbox is garbage on that move and you can be knocked out of it easily. Again, if applied in a Shffl (without the FF) you can apply pressure and waveland out of it. So say you approach with a shorthop Bair , the opponent shields and you are to land in front of them, you can waveland to get behind them or get away from them after the move is done (or you can Nair, which is extra dirty) and gain positioning or surprise them. If they're bobbing and weaving to get away, you have to calculate that and be prepared to maneuver around that or chase them quickly.

One of my favorite things to play mind games is to "fake Fair". Meaning you put out the Fair and Lcancel it before the actual hitbox comes out. The trick is to do this so the opponent sees the beginning animation and reacts to it. When they react, you're already on the ground, fresh with any option you want. Try it out, it's a neat tool that actually applies to every character.

If the opponent DI's away, you have to be prepared for it and dash out for a Fair or Nair or a running Usmash (at low percents for the Usmash). Snake is light enough to get away, but heavy enough to have good hitstun, Uthrow will allow you more time to follow up with a Uair for damage or the kill.

What do I chain grab link with?

Dthrow is the tool, if he DI's back or not at all, you have to dash back and Pivot grab him for regrab, if he DI's away from you, you can just dash grab. This lasts until about 45%ish

 

[Zylix]

Being an all-mental player, I put a lot of thought behind every input so I can simply outsmart my opponent. Yoshi is my main because he has the most options in PM, simple as that.

Yoshi is undoubtedly one of the most well versed characters, especially when you get things like reverse DJC aerials down, but in such a fast paced game, how do you manage to put substantial thought into each move. I can't usually think more than maybe 2 layers of follow-ups/reactions max when in the heat of battle.

powershield grab is the counter to that.

I often get shield grabbed when I approach with a Fair. The grab usually comes out too fast for me to do anything. Do I need to change my approach or just space it better?

One of my favorite things to play mind games is to "fake Fair". Meaning you put out the Fair and Lcancel it before the actual hitbox comes out. The trick is to do this so the opponent sees the beginning animation and reacts to it. When they react, you're already on the ground, fresh with any option you want. Try it out, it's a neat tool that actually applies to every character.

I've done this by accident a few times. It's pretty funny because they usually shield of roll even though no hitbox came out.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Yoshi is undoubtedly one of the most well versed characters, especially when you get things like reverse DJC aerials down, but in such a fast paced game, how do you manage to put substantial thought into each move. I can't usually think more than maybe 2 layers of follow-ups/reactions max when in the heat of battle.

I often get shield grabbed when I approach with a Fair. The grab usually comes out too fast for me to do anything. Do I need to change my approach or just space it better?

I would say to enhance mental game, pick up netplay (if you can). Get dolphin and an Iso and join the ladder. You can play me, but you can play so many other people as well. There, because of latency, you learn to think farther ahead about what you do. I personally got good at the game playing on an HDTV and also have a backround in smash 64, which is an all-mental game. Latency of an HDTV is like 4x that of the latency on netplay, so the transitions are pretty easy for me.

The way you avoid the grab in that situation, is through grab parry. You Lcancel and buffer a shield. For the first 6 frames of Yoshi's shield, he ignores grabs. So if their reaction is instant, you parry it, and you get a free punish OoS. Then the real fun begins, because they might do that 2 or 3 more times before they realize that they can't just grab (granted that you parry it multiple times). Then they have to play in unfamiliar and hesitant territory. That's where you get them into making bad decisions and destroy them for it. That's what will help you think deeper because you'll have more mental stability and you'll be in control of the micro-situations.

 

[Zylix]

I would say to enhance mental game, pick up netplay (if you can). Get dolphin and an Iso and join the ladder. You can play me, but you can play so many other people as well.

Would you by any chance have instructions for setting up PM on an emulator? Or is it pretty intuitive? How do you get a controller working as well?

The way you avoid the grab in that situation, is through grab parry. You Lcancel and buffer a shield. For the first 6 frames of Yoshi's shield, he ignores grabs. So if their reaction is instant, you parry it, and you get a free punish OoS. Then the real fun begins, because they might do that 2 or 3 more times before they realize that they can't just grab (granted that you parry it multiple times). Then they have to play in unfamiliar and hesitant territory. That's where you get them into making bad decisions and destroy them for it. That's what will help you think deeper because you'll have more mental stability and you'll be in control of the micro-situations.

When you L cancel does it parry (do first 6 frames of shield) automatically or do you have to hold it just a bit longer? 6 frames doesn't seem like a long time and the timing has to be spot on or else you get grabbed. How do you get the timing down? I havn't messed around with Yoshi's parrying at all since it seems situational and to timing intensive. Is it worth practicing the timings?

 

[TomBoComBo]

Would you by any chance have instructions for setting up PM on an emulator? Or is it pretty intuitive? How do you get a controller working as well?

http://smashboards.com/threads/proj...ay-setup-optimization-guide-3-5-ready.346700/
This is the tutorial for setting it up.
If you need help with the brawl Iso, Message me on how to do it.
Getting a controller working is simple once you get a mayflash adapter, Though I personally have taught myself to play on keyboard, so it's your call. Mayflash adapters usually go for like $15 tops
And here you can look for matches and play http://www.smashladder.com/netplay

When you L cancel does it parry (do first 6 frames of shield) automatically or do you have to hold it just a bit longer? 6 frames doesn't seem like a long time and the timing has to be spot on or else you get grabbed. How do you get the timing down? I havn't messed around with Yoshi's parrying at all since it seems situational and to timing intensive. Is it worth practicing the timings?

Buffering inputs is putting the input in before it can be performed so you perform it the exact frame you're able to. So Yes, if you L cancel and hold, you'll go into shield the first frame shield is available. The parry isn't really about reactive timing, it's more about prediction and reading when you personally are vulnerable to a grab. In the study of options and micro-situations, if you put yourself into situations where the opponent's best option is to grab, and that option seems free, you get a free parry and a confused/frustrated opponent. More or less, you can start shielding when you have no time to do anything else when you're vulnerable. Eventually through that, you'll start seeing the situations when the opponent likes to grab, and the timing will become second nature.
All in all, yes the situations are choice, but it's very much worth having the option so that you can shut down grab heavy players and get that mental turnaround. Even against people who know what it is, like my own crew and region, it's still very demoralizing to get parried, it's a momentum killer.

 

[Zylix]

http://smashboards.com/threads/proj...ay-setup-optimization-guide-3-5-ready.346700/
This is the tutorial for setting it up.
If you need help with the brawl Iso, Message me on how to do it.
Getting a controller working is simple once you get a mayflash adapter, Though I personally have taught myself to play on keyboard, so it's your call. Mayflash adapters usually go for like $15 tops
And here you can look for matches and play http://www.smashladder.com/netplay

Thanks! I'll try to set it up when I get home and let you know if I need help.

In the study of options and micro-situations, if you put yourself into situations where the opponent's best option is to grab, and that option seems free, you get a free parry and a confused/frustrated opponent. More or less, you can start shielding when you have no time to do anything else when you're vulnerable. Eventually through that, you'll start seeing the situations when the opponent likes to grab, and the timing will become second nature.
All in all, yes the situations are choice, but it's very much worth having the option so that you can shut down grab heavy players and get that mental turnaround. Even against people who know what it is, like my own crew and region, it's still very demoralizing to get parried, it's a momentum killer.

So in a situation where you approach with a fast falled Fair, and you expect the opponent to shield it, you would hold shield and then do an OOS move? Or is there a way to cancel the actual shielding and just get the parry?

 

[TomBoComBo]

So in a situation where you approach with a fast falled Fair, and you expect the opponent to shield it, you would hold shield and then do an OOS move? Or is there a way to cancel the actual shielding and just get the parry?

You can Shieldgrab for something quick (if you do the grab frame 7), but if you want to DJL OoS and do something you can try, but I just Nair OoS for a punish most of the time

 

[Zylix]

You can Shieldgrab for something quick (if you do the grab frame 7), but if you want to DJL OoS and do something you can try, but I just Nair OoS for a punish most of the time

Nair OOS is usually a safe bet although landing a grab could mean getting a combo for more damage than just a nair. I find Yoshi's standing and OOS grabs to be painfully slow. Does holding the shield button usually line the parry up with their grab? or do you find yourself waiting just a bit before beginning the shield after they block an attack?

 

[TomBoComBo]

Nair OOS is usually a safe bet although landing a grab could mean getting a combo for more damage than just a nair. I find Yoshi's standing and OOS grabs to be painfully slow. Does holding the shield button usually line the parry up with their grab? or do you find yourself waiting just a bit before beginning the shield after they block an attack?

It depends highly on the player, most times the buffer will make it line up really well with the grab. If they hesitate, you apply pressure with jabs. it's a flip of the coin sometimes, but if you parry a grab or two, then they'll think twice about it and you get to eat them in their hesitation

 

[Zylix]

I've gotten into the habit of approaching with aerials such as shffl'd Fair/Nair which is quite effective against weaker players but against people who play me often, I continually get powershield grabbed. What are some things I can throw in to counter this? I've tried run by aerials and they keep me safe but usually just get shielded.

Also, what are some ways Yoshi can set up a jab reset for a free downb or smash?

 

[TomBoComBo]

I've gotten into the habit of approaching with aerials such as shffl'd Fair/Nair which is quite effective against weaker players but against people who play me often, I continually get powershield grabbed. What are some things I can throw in to counter this? I've tried run by aerials and they keep me safe but usually just get shielded.

Also, what are some ways Yoshi can set up a jab reset for a free downb or smash?

A good way to mix it up would be to shorthop floating Nair and just go through them to land behind. If they've been expecting your shffl's then they'll react the same as usual, then you just turnaround and do whatever you want. When someone is shielding, you want to either apply enough pressure that they have to think about what to do to leave shield, or you play tricky and go for a grab.
Sometimes an empty hop will force your opponent into a decision, these are fun mixups to hyper aggression. Ultimately, it's what you're comfortable with. I personally recommend the floating Nair more (it's literally a shffl without a fastfall so you land behind them whilst creating pressure on shield

Jab resets are a pivotal part of my game (ask @Mumbo or any other Yoshi) and you can get them off of so many things:

• Dashattack gives you opportunities if you hit with sour spot or beginning hitboxes. Remember that this works primarily on low percents and will work longer on heavy characters (spacies, bowser, etc)
• Bair creates setups at the same percentages, it's best if you do it and Lcancel before the last whip comes out so they're grounded. In this one, the opponent's DI is a factor more and more with percentage, but Bair will lead into setups.
• Dair at low percents when the Opponent DI's down.
• Any Nair at low percents, dependent on DI more and more as percentage increases.
• Fair at any percent can lead to it though it's contextual
  • Fairs early in percentage don't send the opponent up, but will knock them down. Lcancel -> Jab -> anything.
  • Very early on, if you downthrow a character from below a platform (if they're light enough to land on the platform of course) and land above you on the platform, you can actually jab reset them with Fair. This only works at super low percentages and will work outside of that situation, but it's contextual.
  • Downthrow, Fair (you have to fastfall the moment the hitbox makes contact, or even before) and if the opponent doesn't tech, it's a free jab reset. This works at any reasonable percent (character dependent of course) and only smash DI will change the spacing (not by much)
• Ftilt and Utilt are good moves for setting up a jab reset on a crouch canceling opponent at low percents.
• low percent eggs will jab reset
• Crouch canceled Uair at low percents (opponent is crouching), but Utilt and Ftilt are more effective and more efficient.

As I mentioned before, Jab resets are a big part of my game. These are all contextual, but seeing the opportunities isn't hard. Yoshi has so many moves to set up jab resets (as you can see) so go nuts.

Anything else, my friend?

 

[Zylix]

As I mentioned before, Jab resets are a big part of my game. These are all contextual, but seeing the opportunities isn't hard. Yoshi has so many moves to set up jab resets (as you can see) so go nuts.

Anything else, my friend?

Not anything specific at the moment! Your bottomless well of knowledge has continued to quench my thirst! :D I think I'm just needing to develop a neutral game/playstyle. Learning all the techs doesn't make you a better player, it just gives you more options on the battlefield. Implementing them correctly is the true challenge.

Any tips for someone newer to competitive smash on improving neutral? I often times don't feel like I know what to do so I just play instinctively with the tech I learned but I can't compete with the big dogs just on instinct. Any help, yoshi-specific or not, would be appreciated (I know it's a broad and abstract subject. I'm just looking for ways to improve past practicing techs and timings).

 

[TomBoComBo]

Not anything specific at the moment! Your bottomless well of knowledge has continued to quench my thirst! :D I think I'm just needing to develop a neutral game/playstyle. Learning all the techs doesn't make you a better player, it just gives you more options on the battlefield. Implementing them correctly is the true challenge.

Any tips for someone newer to competitive smash on improving neutral? I often times don't feel like I know what to do so I just play instinctively with the tech I learned but I can't compete with the big dogs just on instinct. Any help, yoshi-specific or not, would be appreciated (I know it's a broad and abstract subject. I'm just looking for ways to improve past practicing techs and timings).

As far as neutral and improving mental goes, I personally recommend picking up smash 64. This will give you bare-bones view of mental.
Another, maybe simpler way, would be to get netplay and play on there. Lag is a limiter, but it's a limiter that makes you have to think farther into what you do. You'll also be able to play countless people around the country, and me.
Another thing to do about neutral is to learn what each character "wants". Marth wants a tipper, or to get you off stage or pressure you with range. Fox wants to get your percent up so he can upsmash or upair or whatever. etc. Picking up on the inner workings of the actual character will give you the ability to read an opponent deeper and improve your understanding of the game.
My neutral is a flow between being hyper aggressive and passive defensive. I get in, turtle up for a split second to tank whatever reaction is thrown at me, then I switch back.
Making it far in smash takes more than just knowledge and techskill, it's at least 60% mental. I know so many people that have the tools, but their minds are simply too weak to hold up to the ultra high-paced rock paper scissors for longer than a few minutes (or even less). Mental and emotional sharpness and focus will solidify experience and will help you retain what you learn, as well as stay calm under pressure and be a better sport in competition.
For Yoshi, if you want to improve your neutral, I recommend picking up Falcon and Marth. Marth will teach you patience and spacing, as well as allowing you to see the instant when you can switch mentalities to kill. Falcon is not only simply fun to play, but you have to be on point with your tech chases and your movement. He will allow you to be creative on how you get in and how you trick your opponent into rolling at your knee.
Smash is a big game, everyone plays it differently and according to their own personality. Micro-situation management is my specialty, Yoshi gives me the most options to be effective. Find what Smash means to you and evolve your game to fit you. Whether it means keeping Yoshi or switching, stay true to yourself and you'll learn faster and have way more fun.

 

[Zylix]

As far as neutral and improving mental goes, I personally recommend picking up smash 64. This will give you bare-bones view of mental.
Another, maybe simpler way, would be to get netplay and play on there. Lag is a limiter, but it's a limiter that makes you have to think farther into what you do. You'll also be able to play countless people around the country, and me.
Another thing to do about neutral is to learn what each character "wants". Marth wants a tipper, or to get you off stage or pressure you with range. Fox wants to get your percent up so he can upsmash or upair or whatever. etc. Picking up on the inner workings of the actual character will give you the ability to read an opponent deeper and improve your understanding of the game.
My neutral is a flow between being hyper aggressive and passive defensive. I get in, turtle up for a split second to tank whatever reaction is thrown at me, then I switch back.
Making it far in smash takes more than just knowledge and techskill, it's at least 60% mental. I know so many people that have the tools, but their minds are simply too weak to hold up to the ultra high-paced rock paper scissors for longer than a few minutes (or even less). Mental and emotional sharpness and focus will solidify experience and will help you retain what you learn, as well as stay calm under pressure and be a better sport in competition.
For Yoshi, if you want to improve your neutral, I recommend picking up Falcon and Marth. Marth will teach you patience and spacing, as well as allowing you to see the instant when you can switch mentalities to kill. Falcon is not only simply fun to play, but you have to be on point with your tech chases and your movement. He will allow you to be creative on how you get in and how you trick your opponent into rolling at your knee.
Smash is a big game, everyone plays it differently and according to their own personality. Micro-situation management is my specialty, Yoshi gives me the most options to be effective. Find what Smash means to you and evolve your game to fit you. Whether it means keeping Yoshi or switching, stay true to yourself and you'll learn faster and have way more fun.

I was at my second tournament yesterday and was able to beat a couple people who beat me last time meaning I'm improving. However, there are 3 or 4 people at my scene who are terrifyingly good and knocked me out easily. They play so quickly and seem to know exactly what I'm going to do even when I throw in mixups. It's clear I've got so much work to do mentally but it's daunting and almost seems impossible to get on that level.

I plan on getting into netplay as soon as I get a GC adapter. I'm hoping I'll be able to play people better than me more often than once a week.

I also have trouble with people who play campy. They dash dance until I make a move then out space and punish me. How do I deal with that?

Also, I gotta say thanks for all the support you've been giving me! I really appreciate it!

 

[TomBoComBo]

I also have trouble with people who play campy. They dash dance until I make a move then out space and punish me. How do I deal with that?

Also, I gotta say thanks for all the support you've been giving me! I really appreciate it!

Pick smaller stages and ban bigger ones. So ban out Distant planet, Norfare, Lylat, PS2 and pick Yoshi story, warioware, and battlefield. The bans are up to what's legal, but campy wants space and places to hide, it's less manageable on those stages.
When the opponent wants to camp, it gives you more time to think about what you want to do. Eggs help with keeping the opponent busy, make sure to be either in the air throwing them short, or on the ground throwing them long (obviously at decent range). Approaching campy opponents is always tricky, especially with some characters (like samus or sheik). but if you move fast and cover your approach with an egg, you can get in a good 50%+ of the time. Throwing an egg so it lands on them or near them, then panning the camera close so the egg isnt seen will make most opponents panic shield or roll. both give you the opportunity to punish, and in the case that the opponent is smart enough to avoid the grab or prioritize you, the egg punishes them and/or makes them release if they grabbed you. This helps you deal with powershield-grabs and lets you apply more layers of mind games to get what you want. Experiment, adapt, implement, form a new strategy, repeat. <-- You should do this not every game, not every stock, but every interaction you have with the opponent. You find the opponent's thought process, and you find what is guaranteed to you against that particular character. This builds on experience and compounds to deepen your understanding of the game.

And no problem, I put so much time into smash, and I'm actually studying to be a teacher! I find a lot of enjoyment out of instructing willing players, so thank you for being someone who's actually interested in what I have to say about this silly Dinosaur we all love.

As far as the other players who play faster, there's a brilliant fighting game quote to that. "If you lose to someone, it means they've lost more times than you have"

 

[Zylix]

And no problem, I put so much time into smash, and I'm actually studying to be a teacher! I find a lot of enjoyment out of instructing willing players, so thank you for being someone who's actually interested in what I have to say about this silly Dinosaur we all love.

As far as the other players who play faster, there's a brilliant fighting game quote to that. "If you lose to someone, it means they've lost more times than you have"

I'm slightly embarrassed to say I honestly hadn't thought of throwing an egg before approaching. It seems so obvious. I'm still pretty new on the scene and have had the opportunity to play against people who have been playing smash competitively for 5+ years. I'm rounding my third week and have been beating a fair amount of these "veterans". I've been told it's rare to find a new player who understands the game as well as I do and most of that comes from the time I spend on these forums! Especially having the luxury to get answers to any question that pops into my head. You'd make a great real life teacher!

I like that quote I couldn't help but wonder if the people who beat me so badly were ever mediocre players or if they're just naturally good at smash. It seems like it'll be hard to get my mental game to their level. Is it just a slow progression that comes from playing consistently? Or is it more like stepping stones where you learn something new->your game improves->repeat? How do you even go about learning to play on a higher/faster level?

 

[TomBoComBo]

I

I like that quote I couldn't help but wonder if the people who beat me so badly were ever mediocre players or if they're just naturally good at smash. It seems like it'll be hard to get my mental game to their level. Is it just a slow progression that comes from playing consistently? Or is it more like stepping stones where you learn something new->your game improves->repeat? How do you even go about learning to play on a higher/faster level?

The real thing is, How did you get good at L canceling or wavedashing? These basics become ingrained in your hands and mind, they become options rather than things you have to think about. The progression comes from practice, patience, and innovation. I know it's not wholly true, but I like to think that I pioneered Yoshi in PM, that I drove him past what he could/couldn't do. There are things that you will work on, like sniping with eggs, DJCs and other things. But when you play and you push the boundaries and have fun, you stumble upon stuff that works, stuff that makes sense, stuff that can actually be used in a real game. Being creative in friendlies helps broaden your game and gives you more to think about. Everything you learn will, through practice and refinement, become second nature and simply, an option, rather than a thought process. "I hope I hit him with that egg" turns into "I'll use this egg to apply slight pressure to his shield so I can jab pressure and pivot grab" and it all starts to seem slower and you have more control and you see more, can react quicker. Smash is a HARD game to play competitively, arguably the hardest to actually be great at. I'm where I'm at after 4 years because I am simply smart, and I absorb and process information very fast. My game is simply raw experience, if I've seen it, there's a way to beat it, solution, boom done.

What I'm getting at, is that smash is something that takes a ton of time to really start to understand. Learning takes a mindset of only wanting to learn about yourself, loss, win, whatever. What matters is you absorb everything you can and understand how you make decisions. Talking to yourself, teaching others (moi), asking questions, imagining situations, all can be done to improve yourself and gain experience. Everyone was trash at smash at some point. M2K was a scrub even after polishing his techskill for 1000s of hours. Don't expect immediate results, the results that come after tons of work are so much sweeter and drive you to go farther.

 

[Zylix]

The real thing is, How did you get good at L canceling or wavedashing? These basics become ingrained in your hands and mind, they become options rather than things you have to think about. The progression comes from practice, patience, and innovation. I know it's not wholly true, but I like to think that I pioneered Yoshi in PM, that I drove him past what he could/couldn't do. There are things that you will work on, like sniping with eggs, DJCs and other things. But when you play and you push the boundaries and have fun, you stumble upon stuff that works, stuff that makes sense, stuff that can actually be used in a real game. Being creative in friendlies helps broaden your game and gives you more to think about. Everything you learn will, through practice and refinement, become second nature and simply, an option, rather than a thought process. "I hope I hit him with that egg" turns into "I'll use this egg to apply slight pressure to his shield so I can jab pressure and pivot grab" and it all starts to seem slower and you have more control and you see more, can react quicker. Smash is a HARD game to play competitively, arguably the hardest to actually be great at. I'm where I'm at after 4 years because I am simply smart, and I absorb and process information very fast. My game is simply raw experience, if I've seen it, there's a way to beat it, solution, boom done.

What I'm getting at, is that smash is something that takes a ton of time to really start to understand. Learning takes a mindset of only wanting to learn about yourself, loss, win, whatever. What matters is you absorb everything you can and understand how you make decisions. Talking to yourself, teaching others (moi), asking questions, imagining situations, all can be done to improve yourself and gain experience. Everyone was trash at smash at some point. M2K was a scrub even after polishing his techskill for 1000s of hours. Don't expect immediate results, the results that come after tons of work are so much sweeter and drive you to go farther.

Smash is becoming apparently more difficult than I originally thought. When I started about a month ago it was so clear what I had to practice and get in the habit of doing and what I had to learn but now that i'm comfortable with yoshi-specific and generic advanced techniques, i'm learning there's a second layer of skill that isn't noticeable until you get wrecked by someone who isn't technically better but instead just make quicker/better choices. The path to that level of play isn't nearly as clear cut and concrete as just improving tech skill.

I guess what I'm really scared of is getting stuck at a sub-optimal level. There are a handful of people at my scene who have been playing for years that I can beat consistently just cause they seem like they don't really try to improve. They aren't bad but they just seem like they plateaued at a certain point and never got better. I want to avoid that as much as possible.

 

[Scatz]

Such is how the world of improvement works. We hit plateaus and look for advice to find way around it. Maybe it's something that we need to become more precise in. Just know that the improvement curve will always vary, and getting stuck is only dependent on how you learn things and practice to incorporate them into the high level play.

 

[TomBoComBo]

If you ever feel like you're plateauing, change it up. Pick up a new character, get on netplay, go to a tourney that you usually wouldn't