Q&A New to Yoshi? (or not) Ask your questions here!

[AngryPiratehat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwyr7I9vrnM

lol well here you go. I cringe while watching it, but you can still get some ideas for neutral out of the play.

Oh that wasn't bad at all! Not sure why you cringe! That gave me some ideas and some questions.

First question is, how does one perform that god-like pivot grab that I just saw?
Second question is, which version of PM was that? 3.02?

 

[Timid_Panda]

Zelda is Yoshi's worst matchup by a wide margin. I don't, however, think it's so bad that you would need to specifically develop a counterpick. If you already have a secondary that has a good matchup against Zelda, go for it.

The rest of Yoshi's bad matchups are closer to even. If you are comfortable playing Yoshi against Zelda, you will likely be comfortable against the rest of the cast.

Thanks, I have no secondary at all and will be heading to my first tourney soon.
So I guess its just time to grind out Yoshi.
Annoyingly specific questions coming tomorrow.

 

[didds]

Oh that wasn't bad at all! Not sure why you cringe! That gave me some ideas and some questions.

First question is, how does one perform that god-like pivot grab that I just saw?
Second question is, which version of PM was that? 3.02?

This was 3.02 so pretty much the dair and eggroll setups aren't quite so relevant. For pivot grabbing I always just imagine the timing as similar to a jump cancelled grab timing, but substitute the jump input with grab, and the grab input with turnaround.

I mostly cringe because I'm at that point in my smash career where I have the fundamentals, but lack optimization with punishes and don't always play the neutral in the safest way, so when I watch these videos I can pick out the points where I could have done a lot more. For example, there are times I get the pop up and begin juggling, then rather then extend the combo to the point where I could feasibly kill someone outright, I end it early with an easy nair or something like that.

The goal of every player should be getting to the point where you don't really need people to tell you your mistakes, where you can analyze your own play and pinpoint what you need to work on.

And thank you for the compliment, I've only improved since then too

 

[ZomBiehn]

By no means is yoshi a underdog in sm4sh, yoshi is one to fear in tournament play

 

[AngryPiratehat]

This was 3.02 so pretty much the dair and eggroll setups aren't quite so relevant. For pivot grabbing I always just imagine the timing as similar to a jump cancelled grab timing, but substitute the jump input with grab, and the grab input with turnaround.

I mostly cringe because I'm at that point in my smash career where I have the fundamentals, but lack optimization with punishes and don't always play the neutral in the safest way, so when I watch these videos I can pick out the points where I could have done a lot more. For example, there are times I get the pop up and begin juggling, then rather then extend the combo to the point where I could feasibly kill someone outright, I end it early with an easy nair or something like that.

The goal of every player should be getting to the point where you don't really need people to tell you your mistakes, where you can analyze your own play and pinpoint what you need to work on.

And thank you for the compliment, I've only improved since then too

Thanks for that info, I've really gotta figure out how to incorporate that fanciness into my game (that string of grabs you got was awesome)

I would really like to get to that point... It seems especially hard because I don't have any way of recording my matches... maybe I could use my potato-phone to at least have some sort of footage. (I am in the market for a card or some way of capturing gameplay, so if you have suggestions I'm open to them!)

Also, the eggroll isn't a good setup anymore? I thought it was still ok as long as you didn't get shield grabbed.

 

[Scatz]

I would really like to get to that point... It seems especially hard because I don't have any way of recording my matches... maybe I could use my potato-phone to at least have some sort of footage. (I am in the market for a card or some way of capturing gameplay, so if you have suggestions I'm open to them!)

http://smashboards.com/threads/beginners-guide-to-capturing-and-recording-melee-footage.298260/

Main one is dazzle that people record on. Get one off ebay, get some splitters, and make sure you have a laptop strong enough to record without stuttering. Or you can use someone else's, and move stuff to an external HDD.

 

[didds]

Thanks for that info, I've really gotta figure out how to incorporate that fanciness into my game (that string of grabs you got was awesome)

I would really like to get to that point... It seems especially hard because I don't have any way of recording my matches... maybe I could use my potato-phone to at least have some sort of footage. (I am in the market for a card or some way of capturing gameplay, so if you have suggestions I'm open to them!)

Also, the eggroll isn't a good setup anymore? I thought it was still ok as long as you didn't get shield grabbed.

It still has it's niche uses, but it's not the unpunishable and stupid threat it was before. Aside from recovery and getting to the ledge fast, Yoshi usually has a better option.

 

[TomBoComBo]

By no means is yoshi a underdog in sm4sh, yoshi is one to fear in tournament play

This is Project M, wrong thread

 

[Mumbo]

Project M for project muerte

 

[Ben Prochazka]

Hamyojo "doesn't" like aMsa….how.Also, can someone confirm that these Edge Canceled Eggs are being done correctly

https://vine.co/u/946124376728801280

Thanks!

 

[AngryPiratehat]

Hamyojo "doesn't" like aMsa….how.Also, can someone confirm that these Edge Canceled Eggs are being done correctly

https://vine.co/u/946124376728801280

Thanks!

Can confirm. Edge cancelled eggs are good to go.

 

[Timid_Panda]

How the heck does @ hamyojo get Down-B to work like a freakin spatula on early morning pancakes?!?!

 

[hamyojo]

Hamyojo "doesn't" like aMsa….how.Also, can someone confirm that these Edge Canceled Eggs are being done correctly

https://vine.co/u/946124376728801280

Thanks!

I dont like aMSa? He's an amazing player and a super happy and fun guy to watch. I just love hating on him. He gets away with a lot of stuff because people don't know Yoshi things, and he took Melee Yoshi (Who I played as for years) farther than I could with my time with the character. I'm just jealous of him, lol.
And yes, those ECE's look fine. Make sure you can throw them backwards too, and it's safer to get to the ledge by double jumping at it instead, rather than down Bing, even though that looks cooler.

How the heck does @ hamyojo get Down-B to work like a freakin spatula on early morning pancakes?!?!

Notice who I get it on and the context. I can't get it on Lunchables any more, and only very rarely Sethlon. When people learn to tech, tech chase, and not be more than two frames off VS Yoshi he can't get in those down B's.
My new set up that I seem to always get is pop up fair, air fair, land and see where they tech/if they missed a tech and Down B then.

 

[Ben Prochazka]

I dont like aMSa? He's an amazing player and a super happy and fun guy to watch. I just love hating on him. He gets away with a lot of stuff because people don't know Yoshi things, and he took Melee Yoshi (Who I played as for years) farther than I could with my time with the character. I'm just jealous of him, lol.
And yes, those ECE's look fine. Make sure you can throw them backwards too, and it's safer to get to the ledge by double jumping at it instead, rather than down Bing, even though that looks cooler.

Lol ugh I was creeping on your Twitter (cause you're cool!) and like I think the commentators in a match you were in said you didn't like him.

Also thanks, yeah I was just doing that as practice, and it looks hella cool lol

 

[2 Trainz]

what's my best option for getting onto the ledge? I saw @ hamyojo saying double jump, but when going to edge guard I have always egg thrown to get an extra egg out.

 

[hamyojo]

what's my best option for getting onto the ledge? I saw @ hamyojo saying double jump, but when going to edge guard I have always egg thrown to get an extra egg out.

Double jump. Egg is good, but if someone grabs the ledge before you then you've slipped off stage and are far below the level as Yoshi... Which is a very bad place to be. Throwing out eggs is great, but the positive of that isn't heavy enough to outweigh safely grabbing the edge.

 

[didds]

What hamyojo said, save the egg for when you know you have time, just dont try to steal cookies with it.

 

[2 Trainz]

What about egg rolling? No one ever talks about it but if you need to be on the ledge quickly you can egg roll to the edge, then pop out and be on the ledge, meaning you can get on the ledge in a second or two, although I'm not sure where this leaves your jumps and I can't test it out right now. Also do you have any tips on doing double jump to grab, because I'm not really getting it right now.

 

[Festive]

What about egg rolling? No one ever talks about it but if you need to be on the ledge quickly you can egg roll to the edge, then pop out and be on the ledge, meaning you can get on the ledge in a second or two, although I'm not sure where this leaves your jumps and I can't test it out right now. Also do you have any tips on doing double jump to grab, because I'm not really getting it right now.

Eggrolling is to be used for mixups and mixups only. Using it constantly is a good way to get you grabbed and thrown back off the edge, thus resetting the situation. Also if the opponent knows what moves beat eggroll or when to attack it (when in the air or if the egg is changing direction) then it makes things that much harder.

 

[2 Trainz]

Eggrolling is to be used for mixups and mixups only. Using it constantly is a good way to get you grabbed and thrown back off the edge, thus resetting the situation. Also if the opponent knows what moves beat eggroll or when to attack it (when in the air or if the egg is changing direction) then it makes things that much harder.

I don't think you understand me entirely, I figured this technique out myself, but after doing some searching I found it referred to as "egg roll ledge snap" which I find an appropriate name, anyways (I was trying to insert a link but I don't have enough posts, but if you scroll down on the yoshi thread list you will find a post called "Egg roll egg snap" that's the post I was trying to link) explains whats happening better than I can. Also another question I have is about the importance of fastfalling DJC's I have been trying and it seems incredibly difficult to DJC>FF>L-cancel within frames of each other, also when I fast fall my DJC Nair I'm not even sure anything happens, idk though that's why I am asking.

 

[didds]

I don't think you understand me entirely, I figured this technique out myself, but after doing some searching I found it referred to as "egg roll ledge snap" which I find an appropriate name, anyways (I was trying to insert a link but I don't have enough posts, but if you scroll down on the yoshi thread list you will find a post called "Egg roll egg snap" that's the post I was trying to link) explains whats happening better than I can. Also another question I have is about the importance of fastfalling DJC's I have been trying and it seems incredibly difficult to DJC>FF>L-cancel within frames of each other, also when I fast fall my DJC Nair I'm not even sure anything happens, idk though that's why I am asking.

what's probably happening is the you are a little slow on throwing out your aerial attack after DJ'ing. Since the jump is interrupted later, yoshi is still ascending which makes fast falling impossible, you have to reach the apex of the jump.

So yea, just practice pressing buttons faster. DJC aerials will give Yoshi a ton of options at varying ranges which translates to his out of shield too.

 

[Sape]

Hi, Im semi new to yoshi and here are my current struggles:

1. What are effective ways to techchase, I often just do eggthrows when they roll away or try to hardread with a downsmash but seem to barely get an advantage off the enemy being on the ground.

2. Are there any moves that are better to autocancel than l-cancel?

3. What are good out of shield options against quicker characters, grabs arent really happening and I mostly try to double jump nair or just downtilt to get room, am I missing something or is the mistake in the first place to get cought in the shield at close range?

 

[Mumbo]

What about egg rolling? No one ever talks about it but if you need to be on the ledge quickly you can egg roll to the edge, then pop out and be on the ledge, meaning you can get on the ledge in a second or two, although I'm not sure where this leaves your jumps and I can't test it out right now. Also do you have any tips on doing double jump to grab, because I'm not really getting it right now.

Eggrolling Yoshi's fastest movement option and is therefore Yoshi's fastest option to grab the ledge from the opposite side of the stage. Touching the ground at any point during eggroll will refresh your jump, so if you eggroll too far offstage and pop out while you are still in the air, you can jump back.

 

[Mumbo]

Hi, Im semi new to yoshi and here are my current struggles:

1. What are effective ways to techchase, I often just do eggthrows when they roll away or try to hardread with a downsmash but seem to barely get an advantage off the enemy being on the ground.

2. Are there any moves that are better to autocancel than l-cancel?

3. What are good out of shield options against quicker characters, grabs arent really happening and I mostly try to double jump nair or just downtilt to get room, am I missing something or is the mistake in the first place to get cought in the shield at close range?

I don't really feel qualified to answer 1 or 2 but for 3, shield grabbing is basically not an option for yoshi, in any matchup really. Nair out of shield comes out frame 9, is relatively safe, and has good coverage. DJC nair OoS has armor frame 8 and comes out frame 11. It can be punished harder because it requires you to commit to the double jump, and if you trade or get beaten, you have no double jump. However, I prefer DJC nair OoS because you can 1 turn around, 2 have the armor, and 3 get to the ground quicker. Buffer roll out of shield is also an option that you should consider, especially against characters with crazy pressure like spacies or Kirby utilt. If you can get consistent at Double Jump Landing (DJL), which involves double jumping the first airborne frame of your first jump, DJL downsmash OoS is an excellent option that comes out frame 16. It's a slower than Nair, faster than Grab OoS (lol frame 17) but it's stupid powerful and rarely expected. Just landing this once can make the opponent cautious when they try to approach your shield at a high % and relieve pressure.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hi, Im semi new to yoshi and here are my current struggles:

1. What are effective ways to techchase, I often just do eggthrows when they roll away or try to hardread with a downsmash but seem to barely get an advantage off the enemy being on the ground.

2. Are there any moves that are better to autocancel than l-cancel?

3. What are good out of shield options against quicker characters, grabs arent really happening and I mostly try to double jump nair or just downtilt to get room, am I missing something or is the mistake in the first place to get cought in the shield at close range?

I'll take 1 and 2

1. Tech chasing is very dependent on the player, when you pay attention to how the player thinks, tech chasing becomes easier because you can start to force them into making decisions. Say you Dtilt them away and they miss tech. An easy way to create a "safe aggressive option" is dashing at them. They see you dashing and think either you're trying to cover a roll, back or a regular getup. Then they decide to take one of the other two options being getup attack or rolling past you. Knowing this, you can cover 3 of those four options by simply wavedashing back after just being inside getup attack range. This will allow you to cover a roll in, a getup attack (the two options you wanted to bait) and a regular getup (which becomes a 2 option chase). Tech chasing is all about the player, Yoshi has a million ways to chase, never stick to one unless the opponent is brainless and chooses the same option repeatedly.

2. Bair actually doesn't need to be canceled at all, you can shorthop bair and waveland out of it, or Nair before hitting the ground.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'm finding P:M Yoshi very difficult to get used to. He feels less mobile than a cinderblock with a broken leg at the moment. Because I'm used to him being floaty and maneuverable (this is partially also what draws me to ), this is very jarring.

Anyway, is there anything I can do to not double jump cancel? I get how it adds more options, but it takes away most of my options because it always activates when I don't want it to.

 

[THE adversary]

Anyway, is there anything I can do to not double jump cancel? I get how it adds more options, but it takes away most of my options because it always activates when I don't want it to.

As in, rising aerials? just hold the jump button while you input the attack. does not work with tap jump.

 

[Festive]

I don't think you understand me entirely, I figured this technique out myself, but after doing some searching I found it referred to as "egg roll ledge snap" which I find an appropriate name, anyways (I was trying to insert a link but I don't have enough posts, but if you scroll down on the yoshi thread list you will find a post called "Egg roll egg snap" that's the post I was trying to link) explains whats happening better than I can. Also another question I have is about the importance of fastfalling DJC's I have been trying and it seems incredibly difficult to DJC>FF>L-cancel within frames of each other, also when I fast fall my DJC Nair I'm not even sure anything happens, idk though that's why I am asking.

Oh my bad. Guess I can't read lol. Didds response pretty much sums it up.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm finding P:M Yoshi very difficult to get used to. He feels less mobile than a cinderblock with a broken leg at the moment. Because I'm used to him being floaty and maneuverable (this is partially also what draws me to ), this is very jarring.

Anyway, is there anything I can do to not double jump cancel? I get how it adds more options, but it takes away most of my options because it always activates when I don't want it to.

turn off tap jump

 

[didds]

eh, tap jump off helps in the short run, but tap jump on will only give your character greater control in the end.

It should also be noted at @ Mumbo 's response that although djc nair oos is good (its personally my favorite option), you need to be careful with it at higher percent. If you get knocked out you are now jumpless and offstage.

 

[Feral Cadence]

For some reason, I often find myself DJC ing onto platforms when I'm trying to chase an opponent with an U-air. I know it's just a timing thing I have to practice, but I was wondering if there were any situations where DJC ing onto a platform would be better than either wave landing onto it or going for an aerial punish.

Other than style points, of course. DJC ing onto a platform to a charged smash is mighty satisfying.

 

[didds]

For some reason, I often find myself DJC ing onto platforms when I'm trying to chase an opponent with an U-air. I know it's just a timing thing I have to practice, but I was wondering if there were any situations where DJC ing onto a platform would be better than either wave landing onto it or going for an aerial punish.

Other than style points, of course. DJC ing onto a platform to a charged smash is mighty satisfying.

landing on platform is just another mixup, it has it's niche uses. Condition your opponent to expect the aerial punish and you'll be able to start drawing out rolls. Then you can get those stylish charged smashes while having it be a smart decision.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Thanks! Another question, probably for Hamyojo. Any advice for playing against Roy? It doesn't seem like he needs to commit nearly as much as Marth, and it's difficult to outrun him on most stages.

I might just need to work on my timing, of course. He just seems to command a lot of space.

 

[didds]

@ hamyojo ^

 

[TomBoComBo]

or ask me...?
Roy is chain grabbable

• If he DI's downthrow away then you can dash grab him, if He DI's into you, you can pivot, DJC Uair or Usmash.

Roy always wants an Fsmash, For most of his punish game, he'll try to catch and punish you with that. Augment your spacing to adjust to that, never leave yourself without an option when the hilt is in range.

Roy's recovery is pretty ass, if you can get a good Dsmash at mid percents then a ledgehog can be enough most of the time. Don't use eggs on him once he's off stage because he actually can benefit from being hit

If Roy doesn't sweet spot (so he can catch you on the ledge) you can dash back and dashattack his hand to kill him. The timing is slightly later than a dash attack to gimp Ike's recovery.

Don't hang out above Roy on a platform, Yoshi can deal with combos with super armor, but you start to lose options when he pressures you from below.

You want to try to zone Roy out in neutral, the more stage you control, the more threatening you are to Roy (since he's not a fast character and only has a limited zone of influence.) Dtilts will give you space and will allow you stage control. He will be trying to do the same, but You have tools he doesn't like Dtilt and if you gain the stage control, you gain the stock

Roy is combo food after a grab. at 0% you can Dthrow him into a triple Usmash for close to 60%. Nair OoS does well, DJC Nair OoS is slightly less safe because a powershield Fsmash is a way out (just a SH Nair OoS lets you float past him and out of range of a Fsmash).

Anything else I'm missing or need to clarify?

 

[Feral Cadence]

That gave me plenty to work on, actually. Sorry for not mentioning you before. I haven't seen you play, and I know Ham plays against Sethlon relatively frequently.

 

[didds]

or ask me...?
Roy is chain grabbable

• If he DI's downthrow away then you can dash grab him, if He DI's into you, you can pivot, DJC Uair or Usmash.

Roy always wants an Fsmash, For most of his punish game, he'll try to catch and punish you with that. Augment your spacing to adjust to that, never leave yourself without an option when the hilt is in range.

Roy's recovery is pretty ***, if you can get a good Dsmash at mid percents then a ledgehog can be enough most of the time. Don't use eggs on him once he's off stage because he actually can benefit from being hit

If Roy doesn't sweet spot (so he can catch you on the ledge) you can dash back and dashattack his hand to kill him. The timing is slightly later than a dash attack to gimp Ike's recovery.

Don't hang out above Roy on a platform, Yoshi can deal with combos with super armor, but you start to lose options when he pressures you from below.

You want to try to zone Roy out in neutral, the more stage you control, the more threatening you are to Roy (since he's not a fast character and only has a limited zone of influence.) Dtilts will give you space and will allow you stage control. He will be trying to do the same, but You have tools he doesn't like Dtilt and if you gain the stage control, you gain the stock

Roy is combo food after a grab. at 0% you can Dthrow him into a triple Usmash for close to 60%. Nair OoS does well, DJC Nair OoS is slightly less safe because a powershield Fsmash is a way out (just a SH Nair OoS lets you float past him and out of range of a Fsmash).

Anything else I'm missing or need to clarify?

meant no offense, ham is just the first one i thought of considering the Sethlon experience and stream footage to analyze.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I might not have much footage of stuff, which I hope can change sooner rather than later, but I definitely have extensive experience in every MU. Even @ hamyojo has said that I have more to say on anything MU or mental

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm not angry if I'm coming off that way, just come to me with those questions, I might miss things, but I'll be able to cover the majority of it.

 

[didds]

didn't think you were angry, just offering an explanation on my thought process