New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Berserker.]

Wow... He resembles to Ridley....

 

[OmegaXXII]

Yup, no wonder Oasis wants him so bad, he speaks clone lol..

inb4oasisdefendsfirebrand

 

[Berserker.]

Defends Firebrand for what?

 

[Oasis_S]

I dunno, but just to be safe I'm going to call you a jerk, Omega.

He has an attack similar to what I was thinking of for Ridley's command grab...

 

[Big-Cat]

Looks like a character with enough persistant demand can get in. Look who got in SF x Tekken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFzmxnBNpk&

 

[Oasis_S]

Would Geno want to be compared to Poison.

...Assuming that was the character in question?

 

[Big-Cat]

Yep. All this time, I didn't think Poison was gonna happen, but lo and behold, it happened. Surprised Lili and Asuka weren't shown since they're all but confirmed at this point, but Comic-Con is still going on for a couple of days.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Defends Firebrand for what?

uh.....

I dunno, but just to be safe I'm going to call you a jerk, Omega.

He has an attack similar to what I was thinking of for Ridley's command grab...

yea... He speaks clone, cool character tho.

Looks like a character with enough persistant demand can get in. Look who got in SF x Tekken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFzmxnBNpk&

Oh hell yea!!!

Yoshimitsu aka Poison in SxT?

Awesome I say, has Sagat been confirmed? I haven't seen everything regarding the game due to spoils which I just got through doing. <_<

 

[Big-Cat]

Sagat's been confirmed since E3. The only ones we didn't know about were Poison and Yoshimitsu. Cammy, Julia, Sagat, Hwoarang, Dhalsim, and Steve all had character hint trailers, but the other two were given absolutely no clues that they were in.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Looks like a character with enough persistant demand can get in. Look who got in SF x Tekken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFzmxnBNpk&

Then why didn't this happen?

http://www.themmnetwork.com/2011/03/06/mega-man-x-takes-the-dlc-vote-crown/

No wait... Don't answer. This is yesterday's episode, I'm not going through this again.

But that's pretty cool that Poison got in.

In Japan, she NEVER was a ******. And in the US she was only a ****** in the SNES version (you can tell by his sprite). So I hope this clears up her myth.

 

[Luco]

Argh now i want to make another stage idea(maybe there's room for 2 ppl doing stage ideas o.O O.o )

 

[shinhed-echi]

Argh now i want to make another stage idea(maybe there's room for 2 ppl doing stage ideas o.O O.o )

Of course there is? Why would that stop you?

 

[Luco]

Ohh, did you just do the same thing as me where you put a question mark where you meant to put a full stop/exclamation mark? I do that all the time! ^^

As for your actual response, now i'm just going to have to think up another stage. I'll post it tomorrow ^^

 

[Hoots]

Yep. All this time, I didn't think Poison was gonna happen, but lo and behold, it happened. Surprised Lili and Asuka weren't shown since they're all but confirmed at this point, but Comic-Con is still going on for a couple of days.

That colossal sl*t was a hugely fan demanded charater? I will never understand the fighting community... Regardless, if it somehow could show that Geno has a chance... I'll take it!

 

[nLiM8d]

Edited by xeGO.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Also- Thank God for SSBFan, realism needs to counterbalance some of the speculations going on.

Amen. There's been some really ridiculous propositions made in here.

In unrelated news, I've started experimenting with designing stages as well. I personally find it a lot more entertaining than character designs because I like music a lot and half of stage design is picking the perfect soundtrack for a stage. Right now though, I need ideas for locations and music from these series;

Kirby
Star Fox
Fire Emblem
Megaman
Earthbound
Sin & Punishment

Right now, I'm working on Bowser's Castle and Death Mountain.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Not really but I'm really against the idea that he would even be suggested, he isn't deserving enough nor has he appeared on any significant Mario game, much less even played a role of some sort, a character such as Waluigi isn't worthy to be an "All-Star" alongside Wario and such IMO.

You do have a point there. However, because Waluigi has become such a common character in spin-offs, he should at least get the Assist Trophy treatment. He's not exactly a pointless character, since the name, Waluigi, basically means evil Luigi.

A man can dream . . . .

Spoiler

An impossible dream though. He would've been a good candidate if Nintendo hadn't sold Rare to Microsoft.

 

[nLiM8d]

Edited by xeGO.

 

[Deleted member]

@Pseudomaniac: For a Sin & Punishment stage, use Agave as a music. Easily the best I've encountered from that game so far. For a Kirby stage, take a a very good look at Kirby Super Star, which has a fantastic soundtrack.

@Black Knight: Many of you seem to be overlooking one very important character, Roy. If we are going to see any additional Fire Emblem in the next game it will be a revamped, returning Roy. He has one advantage going for him, he can have his cake and eat it too. Because he wasn't in Brawl and returns retooled it will be hardpressed for some unfamiliar to not see him as a "newcomer", yet he also has the excitement of being a returning character.

Really I don't see any other option for Fire Emblem but Roy. It makes too much sense in every way.

That isn't going to be enough to get the developers to likely consider him as a third Fire Emblem character over such as Lyn, Black Knight, Caeda, etc., and I already have my doubt about us getting a second Fire Emblem rep. Even if Roy does return, he will be a lugified clone as the very best due to once being a full clone of Marth.

Can we try realistic best case scenarios now.

I would say the realistic best case scenario is 49 slots with no universal roster. Above is certainly possible, but unlikely.

everything we speculate is inaccurate. there is nothing that we can say that is truly set in stone. no matter how much logic we can conjure up, the human mind has a way of cancelling past judgements.

That's true, but speculating is pretty much the only thing we can do when it comes to judging character chances. If you have a problem with it, do something about it and change the topic.

To me, Pokemon Trainer and ROB were the only characters that were completely unexpected.

I wouldn't say R.O.B. was completely unexpected. A few people did speculate on him being playable.

Looks like a character with enough persistant demand can get in. Look who got in SF x Tekken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFzmxnBNpk&

Good point there. I think this shows that if demands for Mega Man/other extremely popular characters like Ridley and King K. Rool remains consistent or continues to grow that it'll make their chances that much more likely.

Would Geno want to be compared to Poison.

...Assuming that was the character in question?

The only characters that have remained consistent in support without dying down are Mega Man, King K. Rool, Ridley, and Bowser Jr. Geno has lost a lot of support ever since the failure that was the Geno's Alliance and he will never reclaim that popularity again. If he gets in, it will be by sheer luck.

 

[Pombo]

Have anything, besides the existence of a new SSB game, been confirmed yet?

 

[augustoflores]

just saw the link, saw poison and i got chills! (whenever i say chills, i think of grease

...not being able to have the insight to determine what developers decide. Not so much that we can't judge characters; otherwise there's no real reason to speculate.

pretty much, yea.... but there is more to it. i mean let's look at phoenix wright; apparently, capcom stated wright couldn't fight, and now we are in expectation to see him in UMvC3 (even though it was revealed solely by a leak and not official). the mind over at capcom said no, and now it says yes.
to further iterate, what this means for smash would be the inclusion of any character that has been turned down based on previous reasons like say Bubbles or Ridley.

(btw, bubbles would be really neat... but i seem to be the only one who can think of a really good way of using her pole spin moves.)
(to those whom already know that i do not see ridley's inclusion, know now that i am fighting a battle within myself to include him or not... it's becoming a stalemate... almost enough that i may split my persona in two.)

 

[Deleted member]

Have anything, besides the existence of a new SSB game, been confirmed yet?

- It will be both for the 3DS and Wii-U.
- Customizable options for the 3DS.
- 3DS will focus on single-player mode whereas the Wii-U will focus on the multi-player mode.

pretty much, yea.... but there is more to it. i mean let's look at phoenix wright; apparently, capcom stated wright couldn't fight, and now we are in expectation to see him in UMvC3 (even though it was revealed solely by a leak and not official). the mind over at capcom said no, and now it says yes.
to further iterate, what this means for smash would be the inclusion of any character that has been turned down based on previous reasons like say Bubbles or Ridley.

The difference being is that we have yet to see a turn down character become playable yet in Smash Bros. Sukapon was planned for Melee but eventually turn down. As such, he will probably never be playable, as much as I hate to admit this.

Also, Ridley was never turned down, Sakurai just never really considered him a playable character. Now that he received a large back lash for this, Sakurai has no choice but to make him playable or to see an even larger back lash.

 

[Gallowglass]

Hey I was looking at the assist trophies on Smash Dojo and I found some evidence that Saki will probably be in the SSB4.

This quote in particular,

"He rivals just about any main character. There were many requests from users for his inclusion, and he IS pretty cool, so I did what I could to include him. After all, this game does let you enjoy a dream cast of supporting characters!"

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/assist/assist12.html

 

[Deleted member]

@Master Rapier: Already brought up, but good find regardless.

 

[Jaklub]

The difference being is that we have yet to see a turn down character become playable yet in Smash Bors. Sukapon was planned for Melee and eventually dropped. As such, he will probably never be playable, as much as I hate to admit this.

So, we're not seeing Mewtwo in Smash 4

 

[augustoflores]

but of course! there's only been 3 iterations. you can't find any patterns with just 3. look at it this way... let's say that there has now been 7 installments... now let's remove a character from the 4th installment ... okay... feeling some character removal backlash, whatever... now let's bring in that character back for the 7th installment. he/she just got relevant again in this future point in time which is why it was returned.

turned down is an umbrella term. technically, Ridley was turned down due to the reason he has given us. do you remember that reason? i do.

 

[JordantheGiant]

As far as Pokemon reps I see it going a number of ways. Keep in mind the following is only loosely ordered in likely hood.

If there are only four reps:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Victini

Pikachu
Jigglypuff/Victini
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Lucario/Mewtwo

Pikachu
Mewtwo
Pokemon Trainer
Victini

And five:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Lucario/Mewtwo
Victini

Sorry if this is a worthless post.

 

[JavaCroc]

Long Post Up Ahead​

This is my revamp on my essay on Victini.

What do you think of this essay in comparison to the last one? I'll make sure PM nLiM8d about this before sending this to other sites.

@shinhed-echi: According to GameFAQs, the order goes like this from most requested to least requested:

- Ridley
- King K. Rool
- Bowser Jr.
- Mewtwo
- Medusa

All of them have received high requests to be playable in SSB4. I think all have a fair shot of being playable (Mewtwo's chances are questionable, but still has a shot).

That order seems about right for villains. I don't think Mewtwo is more popular than Medusa, but I don't know for sure.

I'll take a look at the new Victini essay as soon as I can. I've got much on my mind today.

Not true. That seems to imply Black Knight was merely a boss battle Ike fought on several occasions. Bear in mind, that Zelgius (Black Knight's true identity) was the commander of Bengion's Central Army, together with the guise of Black Knight, I'd argue he's the deepest character who was developed throughout the Tellius Series. Moreso than Ike or Michaiah actually. (Those of you who finished with the final true ending know all about this).

Anyway, aside from story importance... Fire Emblem had two reps when it was Japan-Only, it's far more popular now, western releases sell more than Japan-Only, so that franchise boomed. It's characters are also VERY rich in fighter potential. Black Knight stands as the most likely newcomer. He's rivalled only by Lyn (who had a brief window of popularity, as why she's the assist trophy. She's since fallen by the wayside, only mentioned by non-FE speculators). Those who know Fire Emblem realize in the grand scheme, she's not important, being one of three main characters in her game, and being the primary in the tutorial section only. Caeda is the other contender, who's from Marth's series as the deuteragonist, she is Marth's wife later in the series. Drawbacks? Well, she's a cavalry fighter. It's integral to her fighting style, taking her off horseback would be like stripping Dedede of his hammer, yes it could work, but it's not how he fights.

The only drawback? If Fire Emblem gets no newcomers. Then obviously, no. But if they do, count on Black Knight.

There's also no chance of a new Fire Emblem coming out soon enough for a Lord to arrive. The newest Fire Emblem 12 has yet to be localized (Expect late august), which is only a remake of Marth's famicom game.

This post show why the Black Knight has good chances to appear in SSB4 if we get a third FE character slot. I do think Caeda has very good chances too, though, and her chances are probably close to the Black Knight's. Her popularity is small at the moment, but it's growing. As for her being a cavalry fighter, they had to strip Captain Falcon of his Blue Falcon until Brawl to make him a playable character, and Fox didn't use an Arwing or Landmaster until Brawl either - all he had were his gun and reflector (which I'm not even sure originate from Star Fox). Caeda can very well fight on her own and use a horse as a Final Smash. I think Caeda's chances are underrated and Black Knight's chances slightly (but not overly) overrated. Of course, both characters could be in trouble if a new FE game is announced within a year or two.

Heh... who would've known MEDUSA would be 2nd only after almighty RIDLEY. :D

I thought people were saying "Kid Icarus doesn't deserve a second rep" all around. Guess these people aren't too vocal, or deep inside they do want Medusa.

Anyway, this was a helpful confirmation, so thanks.

Her fan base has been building up since Kid Icarus: Uprising announcements. I am very curious to see all your arguments against her inclusion.

Well, there is the potential roadblock that the sidekick gets added before the villain, in which case Magnus/Palutena gets the slot over Medusa despite being inferior characters (IMO).

And in terms of her fanbase, I think this is a case of exaggeration by her supporters (I'm indifferent, as long as she doesn't usurp a slot from a more deserving franchise newcomer). Her fanbase has only really kicked up after this summer's E3 (a little over a month ago)...no one was suggesting Medusa when she was first revealed at E3 2010, or because she was a retro female villain from the 80's. Even now, I doubt many people would even care about Medusa if Sakurai weren't in charge of Kid Icarus, which is where I think she draws the majority of her chances from. The roster will be decided in October this year, before Kid Icarus gets released (I believe...), so I doubt Medusa will garner that large of a fanbase outside message boards or hardcore fans who watch E3 and see trailers (the audience Sakurai -doesn't- cater to, in other words), or much of a large fanbase compared to fellow villains Ridley and K. Rool.

I don't want to attempt to second-guess Sakurai, because of his apparent instability, but if I had to guess, I would think he'd be a bit more humble toward his creations this go around, due to him pimping Kirby hardcore in Brawl, just like he apparently made Melee Kirby a bad character, because he was so good in SSB64, and didn't add Dedede to Melee because of his humble attitude.

Three months may be all she needs to get in SSB4, but her fan base has been growing ever since E3 2010, so it's not like she has been completely forgotten before this year. By the time Kid Icarus: Uprising is released, it will have had lots of time to gain lots of sales and Medusa will be that much more prominent to gamers all over the world. A late 2013-late 2014 release is plenty of time IMO and there's always that chance that Sakurai will include Medusa due to raving sales of Kid Icarus: Uprising.

Also, this isn't Sakurai's creation, so I doubt he'll be "humble" towards Kid Icarus.

Yes, Medusa's popularity is growing, but it's more based on the fact everyone believes Kid Icarus is almost guaranteed a second rep. If Sakurai wasn't behind Kid Icarus Uprising, few would support her or any other Kid Icarus rep. Her support is almost entirely based on the theory that Sakurai's biasness towards Kid Icarus will land it a second rep.

If Uprising perform excellently sales and reception-wise, I can see a new Kid Icarus rep very likely. Otherwise, I think the chances of it are overrated.

Captain Syrup gentlemen. How do you feel her chances are? (Too lazy to wait for SSBF's thread)

Underrated but deserving? Or underrated and staying obscure?

Sakurai hates Wario Land, therefore no Captain Syrup.

Underrated, not deserving, maybe a sticker

Probably not going to happen. Wario does not need a second rep and all her support comes off the fact that she's a villain and a female. At least Medusa has a lot more going for her then that.

Underrated, but deserving. She's the first Nintendo villainness to be recurring and is Wario's original archnemesis. I'd like to see her more often. Not sure how'd she play though.

Assist trophy. She'll summon that genie from the first Wario Land, who will basically pummel your enemies.

Well then, I think if I find the time, I'm writing a Captain Syrup essay, because in my opinion, she is completely deserving.

Is there any love for Waluigi?

Waluigi has been a spin-off character all his life, and I don't think we're getting spin-off characters any time soon. Plus, his fanbase is limited, and there's more hate for the character than there is liking. Bowser Jr., Toad, or Paper Mario should get in before Waluigi.

What is this SSBF challenge everyone is doing?

I believe you know already by now, but I'll just repost my challenge SSB4 roster again:

Remove
- Toon Link
- Wolf
- Lucario
- Lucas
- Snake
- Sonic

Add
- Toad/Paper Mario/Bowser Jr.
- King K. Rool
- Ridley
- Victini/Zoroark
- Isaac
- Little Mac
- Ray
- Starfy
- Takamaru

 

[Célja]

Needz moar Falcon Paunch

 

[Pseudomaniac]

As far as Pokemon reps I see it going a number of ways. Keep in mind the following is only loosely ordered in likely hood.

If there are only four reps:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Victini

Pikachu
Jigglypuff/Victini
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Lucario/Mewtwo

Pikachu
Mewtwo
Pokemon Trainer
Victini

And five:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Lucario/Mewtwo
Victini

Sorry if this is a worthless post.

Jigglypuff is part of the original 12, and thus is extremely unlikely to be removed. And I doubt Mewtwo will be an on-disc character. Personally, I've always though Mewtwo and Lucario would be good candidates for the first wave of DLC characters, along with Toad\Bowser Jr. (whichever doesn't make it on the disc).

 

[---]

I'm bored, so here's my Cadea moveset along with a bad *** photo I found of her that is perfect for Smash. http://ikusaba.nomaki.jp/gallery/fe/ps/an-sheeda.htm

Spoiler

Cadea/Shiida

Notes:
Has a fast walking and running speed (close to ZS Samus),
Is Floaty and has good air speed,
Is light weight (about Zelda's)

Pros:
Amazing Recovery
Can Glide
Very Fast
Weapon Change leads to interesting mix-ups and unique strategies,
D-Air + Lance is one of the best Meteor Smashes in the game,

Cons:
Is light weight and floaty
Poor Projectile
Few Kill Moves


Specials:

Neutral - Javelin/Sonic Sword - throws her lance a short distance, you charge it up like Link's Bow in order to gain distance and speed, but it makes her a sitting target, / slashes her sword to create a magic air slash, can't charge, faster but weaker than Javelin

Side - Pegasus Charge - dashes forward a short distance and at the end slashes with her weapon, when she slashes it can be a Meteor Smash, think Wolf Flash but horizontal,

Up - Mount - mounts onto her Pegasus and is able to fly for a short period, same as Wings of Icarus, but can attack during it however it doesn't last as long, 2-3 Seconds,

Down - Weapon Change - Changes her weapon, from lance to sword and vice versa, lance has better range but poor knockback and vice versa, only on the ground, leaves her vulnerable for a second,

Final - Triangle Attack - launches opponent into the air and middle of the stage like Great Aether, the Pegasus Sisters (Palla, Catria, Est) appear on their Pegasus's and do their signature Triangle Attack, doing 3 hits 20 damage each, good knockback,

Tilts:

Neutral/Jab - starts a rapid stabbing motion similar to Link's jab with her weapon,

Forward - leans forward and stabs opponent's with her weapon,

Up - a basic vertical slash,

Down - swipes at the ground with her weapon,

Dash - slides

Aerials:

Neutral - same as U-Air but in a forward position

Forward - same as F-Tilt but in the air,

Up - spins her weapon similar to Ike's U-Air

Down - thrusts her weapon downwards, can Meteor Smash (with the lance it may be the best in the game),

Back - same as F-Air but backwards,

Smashes:

Forward - attacks with both her weapons for 2 hits,

Up - thrusts her equipped weapon up in the air,

Down - like Marth's D-Smash,

Throws:

Pummel - hits opponent with her knee,

Forward - pushes opponent forward a tiny bit, then stabs them in the back with her weapon,

Up - throws opponent up above her, she stabs them midair with her weapon,

Down - throws opponent down, jumps up and stabs them with her weapon,

Back - same as forward throw, but behind,

Other:

Gliding - Summons her Pegasus

Taunts:

1. Playfully spins her lance/slashes her sword
2. Pets her Pegasus
3. Holds her weapon out, Says "I won't lose here!", if fighting Marth she says "Please stop my love..."

Costumes:

Green - Palla
Blue - Catria
Pink - Est
Orange - Elinca
White - Wedding Gown?


Kirby Hat: Gains her long blue hair, when copying her, he alternates between both her weapons,

Notes:
In FE3 she could dismount from her Pegasus to become a Soldier Class unit who fight with swords. So fighting on her legs is still a reality.

The Pegasus Sisters, Palla, Catria, and Est, need to make cameos in Smash. As not only are they the most popular Female characters in the FE Series, the Japanese love them, they also appear as playable characters in more FE games then even Marth. 5 games total, Marth only has 4. They deserve an appearance.

 

[JordantheGiant]

Jigglypuff is part of the original 12, and thus is extremely unlikely to be removed. And I doubt Mewtwo will be an on-disc character. Personally, I've always though Mewtwo and Lucario would be good candidates for the first wave of DLC characters, along with Toad\Bowser Jr. (whichever doesn't make it on the disc).

I agree with them being DLC. But I also wanted Plusle & Minun/Mewtwo for DLC in Brawl and we see how that turned out

So what Pokemon do you think will be playable?

 

[Deleted member]

but of course! there's only been 3 iterations. you can't find any patterns with just 3. look at it this way... let's say that there has now been 7 installments... now let's remove a character from the 4th installment ... okay... feeling some character removal backlash, whatever... now let's bring in that character back for the 7th installment. he/she just got relevant again in this future point in time which is why it was returned.

turned down is an umbrella term. technically, Ridley was turned down due to the reason he has given us. do you remember that reason? i do.

I never said there was a pattern, I'm just saying that it has yet to happen and I am not expecting it to change anytime soon.

Also, Ridley was never really considered by Sakurai to be a playable character at all, so it's not possible for him to have been turned down.

As far as Pokemon reps I see it going a number of ways. Keep in mind the following is only loosely ordered in likely hood.

If there are only four reps:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Victini

Pikachu
Jigglypuff/Victini
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Lucario/Mewtwo

Pikachu
Mewtwo
Pokemon Trainer
Victini

And five:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Zoroark/Lucario/Mewtwo
Victini

Sorry if this is a worthless post.

I actually think we're very likely to see five slots for Pokemon in SSB4. I have a good feeling that we'll see the following characters in SSB4:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Mewtwo
Victini

Four slots only becomes likely if Zoroark is involved.

 

[Hoots]

SSBF, why is Victini now more likely than Zoroark all of a sudden, and why can't Zoroark and Lucario coexist?

Oh, and btw, your ability to completely dominate and sway the opinions of almost everyone in this thread is impressive, my friend. General opinion seems to change depending on what you say. No offense to the dominatees of course. It is simply quite remarkable.

 

[JavaCroc]

Wow, thanks for posting the link to that site, ---. It has some awesome designs for character trophies on it. I recommend people take a look at it.

It's in Japanese, though, so hopefully you have Google Translator or the like.

http://ikusaba.nomaki.jp/gallery/top.htm

I never said there was a pattern, I'm just saying that it has yet to happen and I am not expecting it to change anytime soon.

Also, Ridley was never really considered by Sakurai to be a playable character at all, so it's not possible for him to have been turned down.I actually think we're very likely to see five slots for Pokemon in SSB4. I have a good feeling that we'll see the following characters in SSB4:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Mewtwo
Victini

Four slots only becomes likely if Zoroark is involved.

SSBF, why is Victini now more likely than Zoroark all of a sudden, and why can't Zoroark and Lucario coexist?

Oh, and btw, your ability to completely dominate and sway the opinions of almost everyone in this thread is impressive, my friend. General opinion seems to change depending on what you say. No offense to the dominatees of course. It is simply quite remarkable.

While Zoroark and Lucario can obviously co-exist in SSB4, and I'd be very happy if they did (although I do support Victini more), the problem is it's a good chance Lucario could get replaced. He doesn't want to support a character if it has a good chance of replacing a character with a unique moveset and no need to go like Lucario, so he supports Victini because Zoroark has that chance and Victini is less likely (but IMO, still possible) to replace Lucario.

 

[augustoflores]

technically, saying that in all of the installments, there has yet been a character to return, that is in of its self a pattern. and further saying that you aren't expecting any characters who have been turned down to be playable... wait... really? i just noticed something of you... you've said what you've said above and stated ridley wasn't turned down simply because you believe in what you've stated above and at the same time you want the inclusion of ridley. So, by denying what i say, you can loophole through what you say to justify his inclusion.

You're either delusional, or you don't understand what it means to be turned down.

you know, i never said ridley can't get in, in fact, i said he has a chance due to human weaknesses. you're only digging a hole for yourself the more you try to debate with me.

 

[Hoots]

technically, saying that in all of the installments, there has yet been a character to return, that is in of its self a pattern. and further saying that you aren't expecting any characters who have been turned down to be playable... wait... really? i just noticed something of you... you've said what you've said above and stated ridley wasn't turned down simply because you believe in what you've stated above and at the same time you want the inclusion of ridley. So, by denying what i say, you can loophole through what you say to justify his inclusion.

You're either delusional, or you don't understand what it means to be turned down.

you know, i never said ridley can't get in, in fact, i said he has a chance due to human weaknesses. you're only digging a hole for yourself the more you try to debate with me.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, but if I understand you correctly, Ridley has a better chance than Sukapon, Dixie, etc, because the only reason he was never playable was because Sakurai just didn't think to add him. Plus, ya know, PEOPLE ACTUALLY WANT HIM, unlike the others. No one is losing any sleep over the loss of Toon Shiek.

 

[---]

While Zoroark and Lucario can obviously co-exist in SSB4, and I'd be very happy if they did (although I do support Victini more), the problem is it's a good chance Lucario could get replaced. He doesn't want to support a character if it has a good chance of replacing a character with a unique moveset and no need to go like Lucario, so he supports Victini because Zoroark has that chance and Victini is less likely (but IMO, still possible) to replace Lucario.

Wow, nice point, thats changed my mind a lot about the Pokemon Issue.

But I still want Mewtwo back before we get any more Pokemon Reps. We already have 6(8) for 5 (?) character slots, do we still need more Pokemon playable? lol

 

[augustoflores]

well, it's more of a longer discussion than just two posts. it stemmed from when i said:

everything we speculate is inaccurate. there is nothing that we can say that is truly set in stone. no matter how much logic we can conjure up, the human mind has a way of cancelling past judgements.

initially, i was responding to BKupa666 when he/she said:

One thing I'd like to point out is that Brawl ATs were chosen as ATs for specifically that role, and were therefore never in consideration to be playable for Brawl.

While I wholeheartedly expect and hope for some ATs to become playable, to say an AT character has priority over a non-AT character to be added to the roster, is simply inaccurate.

some time later, some guy said that he agreed with me 100x or something and gave a description to what i meant then nLiM8d said:

I can't speak for the guy, but I interpret his message as not being able to have the insight to determine what developers decide. Not so much that we can't judge characters; otherwise theres no real reason to speculate.

to which i replied with:

pretty much, yea.... but there is more to it. i mean let's look at phoenix wright; apparently, capcom stated wright couldn't fight, and now we are in expectation to see him in UMvC3 (even though it was revealed solely by a leak and not official). the mind over at capcom said no, and now it says yes.
to further iterate, what this means for smash would be the inclusion of any character that has been turned down based on previous reasons like say Bubbles or Ridley.

(btw, bubbles would be really neat... but i seem to be the only one who can think of a really good way of using her pole spin moves.)
(to those whom already know that i do not see ridley's inclusion, know now that i am fighting a battle within myself to include him or not... it's becoming a stalemate... almost enough that i may split my persona in two.)

and then we start with the SSBF v augustoflores debate.


as to what you're implying, hoots... i never said that. i know people want him, i know people would kill for his inclusion (dramatic, i know). the only reason he's not playable was what sakurai stated (too big, wingspan, etc... not because he didn't think to add him. he did add him, and he depicted him the way he envisioned him to be... massive!), opinions change, he has stated that it could work but that he'd be "very very slow, do you want that?"

as for x character over y character, it's all up in the air, it's always been.

Back to the SSBF v augustoflores debate. he responds with:

The difference being is that we have yet to see a turn down character become playable yet in Smash Bros. Sukapon was planned for Melee but eventually turn down. As such, he will probably never be playable, as much as I hate to admit this.

Also, Ridley was never turned down, Sakurai just never really considered him a playable character. Now that he received a large back lash for this, Sakurai has no choice but to make him playable or to see an even larger back lash.

to which i say:

but of course! there's only been 3 iterations. you can't find any patterns with just 3. look at it this way... let's say that there has now been 7 installments... now let's remove a character from the 4th installment ... okay... feeling some character removal backlash, whatever... now let's bring in that character back for the 7th installment. he/she just got relevant again in this future point in time which is why it was returned.

turned down is an umbrella term. technically, Ridley was turned down due to the reason he has given us. do you remember that reason? i do.

then he defends his words with:

I never said there was a pattern, I'm just saying that it has yet to happen and I am not expecting it to change anytime soon.

Also, Ridley was never really considered by Sakurai to be a playable character at all, so it's not possible for him to have been turned down.

then i countered with:

technically, saying that in all of the installments, there has yet been a character to return, that is in of its self a pattern. and further saying that you aren't expecting any characters who have been turned down to be playable... wait... really? i just noticed something of you... you've said what you've said above and stated ridley wasn't turned down simply because you believe in what you've stated above and at the same time you want the inclusion of ridley. So, by denying what i say, you can loophole through what you say to justify his inclusion.

You're either delusional, or you don't understand what it means to be turned down.

you know, i never said ridley can't get in, in fact, i said he has a chance due to human weaknesses. you're only digging a hole for yourself the more you try to debate with me.

this is the entire discussion... (although something was left out... jaklub replied to SSBF saying "So, we're not seeing Mewtwo in Smash 4")

well, that's everything.

 

[Deleted member]

SSBF, why is Victini now more likely than Zoroark all of a sudden, and why can't Zoroark and Lucario coexist?

Oh, and btw, your ability to completely dominate and sway the opinions of almost everyone in this thread is impressive, my friend. General opinion seems to change depending on what you say. No offense to the dominatees of course. It is simply quite remarkable.

My full answer is in here.

The short version: Victini is more important to the 5th gen then Zoroark, more relevant then Zoroark, his movie came out three months before SSB4 starts development in comparison to Zoroark's movie being 1 1/2 years before SSB4 starts development, he is the only Pokemon to have a central role in two movies aside from Mewtwo (Who is playable in Melee, hint, hint), and is growing in support whereas Zoroark's support is deterioration. Pretty much nothing aside from him being Mew-like is keeping him from being playable at this point. Also, JavaCroc basically summarized why I am against Zoroark's inclusion.

Thanks for the compliment.

technically, saying that in all of the installments, there has yet been a character to return, that is in of its self a pattern. and further saying that you aren't expecting any characters who have been turned down to be playable... wait... really? i just noticed something of you... you've said what you've said above and stated ridley wasn't turned down simply because you believe in what you've stated above and at the same time you want the inclusion of ridley. So, by denying what i say, you can loophole through what you say to justify his inclusion.

You're either delusional, or you don't understand what it means to be turned down.

you know, i never said ridley can't get in, in fact, i said he has a chance due to human weaknesses. you're only digging a hole for yourself the more you try to debate with me.

Let me explain this again. There is a difference between Sukapon's and Ridley's case. Sukapon was planned (And as such, considered), but was turned down, which makes him unlikely to appear in any other installment. Ridley on the other hand was not even given a though to be a playable character and as such, did not have the opportunity to be turned down. Also, the bolded is not a contradiction.