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Ness Video & Critique Thread

Eagleye893

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
2,452
Location
Earth
NNID
isJolTz
3DS FC
1821-9332-2146
I didn't get many matches that I played on stream/recorded, but the ones I did were against my friend, who I face almost every day, and the others some crew battles at the end. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamcustomcombo/b/311260347

First two matches are from 2:23:45 to 2:39:20
Me in crews is from 6:57:20 to the end.
The grab from being sucked was epic.

You batted him when he was in shield..... it went through, but I don't think it should have. If he shielded properly or spotdodged/rolled, you would've been in trouble. I suppose it was a good decision since he would have slid off the platform with the shield push, but sometimes it's better just to go with a grab, tilt, or just jump up and bait a shield drop, then react to whatever he does from that.

You Dash-attacked when D3 was above you.... Dash attack should only be used when the opponent is somewhat far in front of you and you hit with the second and/or third hit. If you were to wait back a bit and wait for him to land, perhaps the dash attack would have worked, but D3 has enough jumps to the point where it doesn't matter AND the platform was near him.

You FAir'd while landing and he put his shield up immediately afterward, THEN you dashgrabbed. The D3 could've just shield-grabbed instead due to a slight frame advantage, but mishaps like that happen. If I were the D3, I would've just been like "oh, the landing lag on the FAir makes me lol" and just grabbed.

You were just jumping around on that platform on SV when he was at a 45 degree angle from you... At least throw out some aerial PK Fires (with a proper airdodge or aerial to land) to make him do something.

Right after that, you went in with a fair from underneath him. UNDERNEATH PEOPLE = UAIR!!! DAT STUFF BROKE! he was at 130 though, so I see why you didn't. A tiny bit more damage = sure kill UAir on that fat guy.

I like the idea of dropping through the platform and going with a rising FAir to land back on it again while poking at the D3 at the left and right sides of a stage. Nice defensive harassment.

I went back a bit at this point to look at something I missed and earlier, around 2:25:00 or so, the D3 was charging an FSmash and the platform was moving away. You jumped backward, and THAT WAS A FREE PK Fire!!!! GAHHHH!!! Use your second jump to make sure you are within range to hit him with the bolt, but YOU COULD'VE GOT 6-10% on him for free. Don't miss the free shots.

You used a landing FAir on him and he shielded...... it shield poked, so you got lucky. Normally the D3 would shift his shield around so that it doesn't poke, then just Grab > Dthrow > Regrab > BThrow in that situation to max damage output.
NO FAIR ON SHIELD WHILE FALLING!!! BADBADBADBADBAD!!!!

FAir's small hits (baiting airdodge from that) > dashgrab was well placed. The platform was moving away, so no shenanigans with DThrow... :(
If you do things right, floatier characters will land on that platform and if you're skilled enough, you could platform cancel for a regrab or just go the safe route and go below him with a USmash/UAir or in front of him with a well-spaced FAir.

If D3 misses an FTilt by a tiny bit, pk fire will force him to shield. if he perfect shields, you're in trouble. Do a FH PK Fire and see what happens, then react.

At some points, you were standing on the platform just hopping. When the platform is moving towards the ends away from D3, as with almost any other character (not the spacies, rob or Diddy; snake is good if you know how to work your tail), you can just stand on the platform as it carries you away and send out a PKT. You are safe and the opponent needs to read your fanciful thundering.

!!!!!! When you catch people in pillars and they are within a reasonable percent for kill by either UAir or BAir, you win. Just throw them out there. RAR BAir and UAir for insta kill. NO EXCEPTIONS, JUST DO IT!!!! You missed a free UAir kill and got like 5% from that.

Okay, went back here again. Saw a Dashgrab at a longer distance from OoS (after perfect shielding)
Dashgrab when the opponent is... within your grab range only. Dashing USmash anything past that. Dash Attack anything past that. And by "dashing," I mean use instantly from your input of dashing. Dash Grab is the best frame-wise, but it doesn't cover a vast distance. USmash covers a ton and the sliding from your dash carries the charging yoyo to a nice little poke. In the case I'm talking about, 2:27:30-ish, the yoyo would've been fine.

Okay, now here's something I don't like. You put up pillars and just let them sit there. A D3 can't grab you if you're standing in a pillar, and that pillar will always be closer to the D3, allowing you to do more stuff if you keep spacing right. If he pokes out with FTilt or DTilt, you should be in a situation where DTilt won't hit you and quick enough to shield the FTilt. A pillar set up on a waddle-dee/doo will push you forward just a little bit, which will let you use more PK Fires or DashGrabs. Or random punishing DashAttacks.

If you suspect a dashing shieldgrab, use my crazy "standing still pushback FH PK Fire" whatchamacallit. I forget how to do it since I haven't played in half a year. it's not really standing still, but it's pretty fast from standing still. It's like "dash > Jump > Wavebounce PK Fire" all at once. I forget terminology too. This will only work sometimes on larger characters, but it works better than short characters.
My play-style is oddly pk-fire based. xD

AHH!1 you were falling on top of D3 after using your FAir as he was shielding, then he kept up his shield and you NAir'd, which led to you getting grabbed. The height at which you NAir'd was good (close to ending just before laggy landing), but when he's got a pretty full shield, you don't wanna take that big of a risk. BAir instead while moving away from him, since it applies more shield stun, has a better chance to poke, and .... it's just better.

OHGODOHGODOHGOD!!!
You were standing just above him while he was grabbing the ledge, with your shield up, and he did a getup roll.... ANYTHING he could've done would have resulted in you getting a punish. Getup attack = BAir OoS, since you were facing the right way. Getup Jump = FH NAIR!!!!. the roll would've been just like SHOOMM!!!! dashgrab since it's easier to see. Standing... idk. Probably could've just DAir'd or something too to cover all the timings. I don't remember. I have a faint memory of me using Auto-canceled DAir's to do shenanigans......

Derp recovery for second stock................

PK Jump counters the toss spam.........

You fair'd when he spotdodged, so you could've followed with a NAir..... either that or an airdodge > turn-around grab.


Halberd isn't that great a choice. big flat part of stage..... the flying part is okay though. That CG for like 40 was bad for you.

That was the luckiest spike kill ever.... He could've just UAir'd, but he was dumb.

The good part of halberd is you can be under the stage and harass forever on the flying part. Do that more often.

What the announcer was saying is right.... Not about the Flash, but when D3 is offstage, you should destroy him. FAir, PK Fire, BAir. Watch the landing.
Also, refresh moves using dtilt on the waddledees. free refresh, and forces D3 to do stuff.

Nice timing on the spike at his getup... I like.



Hey, guys, just got back from a tournament and got absolutely destroyed against Will. Luckily, I got it recorded, so a critique on how bad I did would be nice.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamcustomcombo2/b/315007868 starting at 1:50:47

Do your worst. ;)
Don't play Ness vs. DK. It's honestly not worth it. Ness loses essentially every time. it's a -3 for Ness, no matter what people say.

Fail recovery. STOPPPPPP!!!!!!

What you need to do vs. DK is stuff that's difficult to react to at will (pun intended). Dashgrab, random FH PK Fires, etc. Throwing aerials at his shield is the WORST thing you can do ever. All he needs to do is grab you or do an aerial OoS and you lose any advantage. Make him do stuff first or force him into needing to react very quickly.

If you get a pillar on him, GET HIM ABOVE YOU!!! His DAir and FAir are slow and the NAir doesn't hit well below him. Having DK above you is super advantageous.

not a good match... :(


Should've known when he was landing DAir from that certain height that it would land with lag... free Fsmash or dashgrab.

when you connect with FAir on some of the small hits (meaning the enemy is still close to you and you're moving forward), follow with UAir or NAir. Both are fast and hit front more quickly than BAir.

That string just before the last kill was nice. xD I like.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRr4Orau5UE&feature=youtu.be

I use Ness as a secondary. Any advice is welcome.
Approaching FAirs against Marth are pointless. A single NAir or FAir from him just destroys it before the bigger knockback hit.

As I said earlier in this post, FAir's smaller hits should be followed by NAir or UAir when the enemy is kept close to you. If he goes further away, try to go safer.

Derp to the PKT2 kill. He just jumped in.

Moar Dashgrab, less bat. Dashgrab gets the distance in an instant. Bat's only to punish more obvious mishaps on your opponent's end.

The third kill was okay. The Marth could've airdodged and shielded......



There are a lot of bad opponents here.
 

baconator25

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Messages
34
Location
Queens, NY
Thanks a lot for actually critiquing. I've noticed a lot of what you pointed out after rewatching the videos, but there were still a few things you pointed out that I looked over, so thanks.

Hmm, and I had some bad recoveries in both of them, didn't I? I don't mean to make excuses for myself, but I guess I can attribute them to stream nerves. The first time from being on stream for the first time and the second because I was in the mindset of "oh, ****, I'm facing Will."

I really wish I got some matches recorded at the tournament I was at last weekend. I feel I've improved considerably since then. Oh well. Thanks again for the critique. :)


Also, I find it interesting that you say not to go Ness vs DK, but didn't comment on the Ness vs DDD match-up. Do you really think the DK match-up is worse?
 

Eagleye893

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
2,452
Location
Earth
NNID
isJolTz
3DS FC
1821-9332-2146
YAY! EXTENDING WITH NEW POSTS!!!

Good to mention that.

DDD has predictability to most of his moves, and so does DK. Where they differ is what matters the most, and that's the allocation of speed, kill-power, and damaging. D3 can CG you, but that's not as big of a problem so long as you keep near the boundaries of the stage's main platform and don't let him have easy hits. He can poke relatively nicely and his bair has decent range, but otherwise all of his moves are slow. RELATIVELY. this is a big point. Also, D3's kill moves are easy to see coming and NONE OF THEM ARE LED INTO BY A GRAB OR SOMETHING ELSE!!!

DK has a really fast, really long dtilt. DDD and DK have similar FTilts, where D3's is slightly longer. DK's BAir is better against ness because it has range rather than speed. ALL DK NEEDS IS RANGE ON HIS MOVES BECAUSE OF THIS FACT: CARGO INFINITE! You can argue all day and night that this isn't true and you control the break side, but that doesn't matter. Anyone with a decent reaction time will be able to pick up on the direction and turn to grab... AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF!!! THE RELEASE LEADS TO A DSMASH, WHICH KILLS INSTANTLY AT 105% ON ALMOST ANY STAGE!!!! So you can't get in on him whatsoever, and if the DK plays dumb and passive, throwing out the occasional few BAirs or ranged moves he has to over-ride your speedy short-ranged moves, he wins. his things do more damage and he kills WAYYYYYY quicker than you. WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY quicker. No contest.


DK kills too quick and reliably, D3 kills at average speed compared to other characters in the game and not nearly as reliably as DK kills Ness. D3 has a GR > Dtilt on the edge of the stage to put us in a bad position, but if any of you know how I recover, I'M SURVIVING THAT ****!!! unless I'm at like 120% or so because that just kills outright.


BACK TO VIDS!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDkNG4OrQjs&list=PL08785F7535D68688&index=6&feature=plpp_video

This is the most recent tournament I have been to. I know I need quite some work.
I would like any advice that I can get please.
SHOOT!!!!!

Deleted things

Okay

DANGO DANGO DANGO DANGO
-- Thank you shaky
http://youtu.be/qvzCmV3_12c

Less Rolling, Moar DashGrab.

Look at Yoshi MU. This guy's not doing it right. HadesBlades was just playing safe with grab stuff and I couldn't do much since when I did try something too risky, grab release > USmash.

Know the length of the tongue and how far it can go with dashes and such.

Eggs destroy your camping, so approach safely.

NO YOYO!!!

MOAR AUTO-CANCEL DAIRS, EVERYONE!!!!!!

okay, now save......SAVE!!!


Dtilt > Fsmash doesn't work if the person reacts correctly.

way too early for a Bthrow. 150% or so plus, plz.

BEHOLD THE POWER OF NESS' UAIR ON SNAKE!!! as long as you don't come from right underneath him as he's using his DAir, you're fine. Use the UAir. Also, don't go toward the feet of his NAir.

PKT can outcamp nades. See something about tail-whipping that stuff through curvy paths.

Mortar-slides are useless so long as you know how to shield or use PK Fire at the right time... or bat if you're super-skilled, but

LESS BAT!!! you did that way too much and bat sucks. It has like 2 uses.

Moar dashgrab, but be careful of tilt ranges.

Snake can GR > Ftilt you..... also sometimes UTilt......

PK Fire is nice in this MU, oddly enough. If he has a nade, PK Fire makes him drop it, and then you go from there.

Do what I call "The Dair Dance" on this one; basically jump around auto-canceling dairs until you know you're safe to run in or pick up a nade or PK Fire.

BAir and everything else to kill; BThrow is less reliable. YOU WANT SNAKE OFFSTAGE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE!!! don't put him above you.

ALWAYS WATCH THE SLOZIVES!!!!

Fair less in this mu. More likely to set off nades than other aerials.

A well-timed NAir/BAir can cancel the mortars he shoots off. Use this as a trick when coming down on him from his dash.

ALWAYS SDI THE FIRST HIT OF A MORTAR SLIDE!!! Idk where, just do it.

not an extraordinary match, IMO.



Would like to hear opinions on this Ness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6RW7mje1os

It's not me, but I think it's pretty awesome barring a few mistakes.
^USE THIS VID AS AN EXAMPLE OF A GOOD MATCH OF NESS vs SNAKE!!!!!

<3 Chrono.

My one critique is be more mindful of mortars.


Having control of a banana at all times = you win. Keep that in mind.

Your first game was played well, but you messed up on the recovery.... :(

Learn item-grabbing tricks. Anything from z-grab to DJC throws to landing and grabbing one.... just need to know, especially with things like zss or turnips. or rob's gyro.

A diddy shouldn't be killing you early unless he gets a banana in the right spot.

MOAR PK JUMP!!!!!!!!!!!! PK Jump is good on diddy b/c of the angle. it might not be as good if he's holding a banana, but if you are, go bananas.

When I say bananas are key, I mean if at all possible, go bananas. Your main goal is to use your dominant aerials, because FAir beats most of his stuff, BAir does a bunch of damage and I believe it's better than diddy's.... idk. UAIR TOO BOSS!!!

Know where you can land without being shield-pushed into danger. Always land where there isn't a banana behind you in relation to diddy. If he has a banana, just shield it, but not perfect shield. You can also air-dodge to get a banana from when he's throwing them at you. not difficult to see coming.

Beware the charge-shot canceling bananas.

The MU is basically just knowing all the little tricks of Diddy. After that, you're set. Just pick up on tendencies since they're easier to spot with diddy and you're good to go.

NAir is really nice.

THAT BANANA KILL WAS AWESOME!! <3

Diddy's sideB can be deceiving and mean. it has a ton of priority on the kick, so when he dashes at you, back off of the arc and do something like a tilt to cover the down-time.

I actually REALLY like your usage of bananas. The only problem is that you sometimes don't see the trip of your opponent coming, and to that I say "FOLLOW THE ARC AND DASHGRAB THAT GUY!!!!"

Diddy is all about knowing the physics of the game.



Just a note on the jab-lock. You need a certain amount of jab hits to be able to force a stand-up animation. I think it's like 3-4 jabs from the start of their grounded state. You charged bat expecting to hit, but he rolled because he could. Should've just FTilted to finish it.

FTILT IS BOSS FOR QUICK GOOD DAMAGE!

I like how you use DAir. Reminds me of how I used it back then.
When you hit his shield with the DAir, you backed off and it was good. Then he dashed at you and DAIR HAS AUTOCANCEL! OMG!!! you could've jabbed him or just spotdodged to avoid the grab.
KNOW ABOUT THE AUTO-CANCEL!!!!!!! LKAJSDFLKAJSDFLKJASDLFKJASDLKFJASLDKJF

I like how you move around the stage. You have very good stage-presence. keep that up.

YESSSSSS!!! Just after you killed ROB, the PK Fires you used.... <3 THANK YOU FOR DOING THAT RIGHT!!!!

You're under-estimating the range of ROB's FTilt and DTilt. Catch him off-guard instead and DashGrab or USmash from dash or Dash Attack to hit with only the 3rd strike. Those things have nice range and will do wonders for you. You ran in a couple times on him and he just tilted. Dashing in isn't good unless you either shield-dash or have another plan.

DON'T LAND IN FRONT OF PEOPLE WHEN YOU HIT THEIR SHIELD OR HIT THEM IN A SPOT IN WHICH THEY CAN SHIELD!!!!!!!! Shield grabs are the Bane of Ness. Just look at Marth and DK and D3. Also Snake.

You just fell on his upsmash............PSImag stallin' brah?

LOLOLOL DTILT!!! xP

SH NAIR OoS!!!! PLZ DO IT!!! this and FH NAir OoS are what Ness does best when the enemy gets too close or just to be defensive.

Nice UAir on his second stock. UAir too broke.

You attempted to dtilt too much... on characters like rob that have quick range up close, don't do that.

D3 is more susceptable to DThrow strings. keep that in mind. Doesn't mean to do them a lot, since that's not a good idea at all. Just DThrow can be good.

I really liked how you used PKT when your opponent was offstage.

When you chased D3 offstage, you started with a BAir and hit with a sourspot, then just jumped back up.... You could've fallen on him with a NAir or another BAir or UAir just for lulz and been perfectly safe to recover while putting him in a bad position with more damage.

really not much critique. Just praise.
Just NEED MOAR PK JUMP AND PSImag!!!!!



UAir is better for string continuation at low-mid percents. You jumped up with BAir and ended up pushing him too far out for anything to follow. UAir would've led to a BAir UAir or FAir.

When someone's in a grounded state, I often find it a good idea to just shield-dash over to them so you can go bananas when they get up. If you manage to perfect-shield YAYA GRABS!!! If not, you can just OoS NAir to get some other damage or get back.

That snake needs moar uptilt......

lol, he suicided.

You can't absorb 'splosives bro. xP

See chrono's vid above for any questions.

I like your stage-presence though.


Alright. I really need some help with these matchups. Especially the Rob one...
Any advice would be appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1niiYVEqm8c&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZRpjfYIgxg&feature=relmfu
Just so you know, Kirby's grab range is huge. Also, his off-stage presence is GODLY!!!! if the player is good and knows what to do.

All of Kirby's moves are quick, so you need to take advantage of the one thing kirby doesn't have, and that's range and reliable kill-power.
BThrow and UAir are your main kill moves. Remember that.

You should try and make this match less shield-happy. I see you shielding a lot and not taking advantage of your dash-grab to dominate with slight range advantage. If you did do that, he'd be less shield-happy. Your range is your shield.

This kirby is too grounded. that's exploitable.

BAD RECOVERY! Could've lived on second stock.

If he utilts your shield, OoS Nair out.

USE MORE DASH ATTACK LIKE YOU DID THAT ONE TIME!! JUST HIT WITH 2nd AND 3rd!!!

Be less predictable with your recovery and note where the ideal spot to recover from is. If you drop too low, you won't be able to also land back on the stage. Ideal is around -30 degrees where horizontal to the ledge is 0 and perpendicular to the plane of the ledge above it is 90.

Too early of a BThrow on Wolf, but nice placement of the flash. Since he needed to reflect it, the flash made his reflector last longer, thus making him fall just far enough to not be able to reach the stage no matter what happened.

Know how useful his shine is to wolf. It dominates a bunch of things Ness does because of its deceptive range.

PSIMAG THEM LAZORS!!!!!! >.>

Don't try too hard to spike people when they're offstage. You should be just using aerials that will do damage. NAir, FAir, BAir. UAir only if it'll kill when they're offstage.

Derp on the last recovery. You could've lived.

Also, when the stage changes, if you jump up from the flat part, you get dragged down, so try to be on the flying platform when it changes.

Next vid.

You were basically just running into and being open for every attack.....

we all know lucas is easy, so no need to comment on that.







6 HOURS LATER!!!!
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
2,045
Location
cave plantation
Vs. Wario, he made alot of mistakes and you capitalised on them. cant really critique considering he made it really easy for you to punish.

Vs. IC's, once you get that split, dont go for popo if hes just standing there, nair, fair, spike, whatever. get nana asap, ness is great at doing this. also a tip, you can Psi Fire IC's when theyre grabbing the ledge. It hits nana and a Pillar will set off. against IC's, what you want to do is space with fair, being wary of their Side-B and when they do it punish then split them up. once you get a stock camp you pretty much just camp with lag-cancelled Psi Fire and using PKT if youre on the moving platform on SV.

Vs Fox, never airdodge land, just retreating fair, otherwise you risk getting dashgrabbed or usmashed. only against few characters can punish a retreating fair.

Vs Wolf, when he jump away, you should too and Psi Magnet. let your jump carry you a little bit off the ground and it should be safe to do it. this stops wolf from spamming, or makes him more cautious when he does. If you want to PKT him, loop it under him as he falls with his reflector. otherwise you did well in this match.

Vs Lucario, Use retreating lag cancelled Psi Fires more, not just pivot ones, these stop his aerial approach. you shoudl do some retreating sh fairs do make sure he doesnt just run at you and fair. this mu to me is like a race of who gets the fair in first. dont try to punish lucario when hes above us, dair beats everything. rather, wait for a dair then punish with fair, or PKT (like you did at 4:40). dont SH at lucario, he should be approaching you in this MU. dont use your back throw till 110%+, it wont kill lucario any lower and just stales the move.

from watching your videos, you have a bad habit or DJing back to the stage then airdodging right into the opponent as you land. you dont need to do this, just grab the ledge then PKT to get them away, or after you DJ PKT2 yourself directly into the ground, from where people will try to attack you and you can either stand up, roll away or do the getup attack.
These arent really rules, but more suggestions for improvement/mixups.
 

JTMerrell

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
313
Location
Chattanooga, Tennessee
Vs. Wario, he made alot of mistakes and you capitalised on them. cant really critique considering he made it really easy for you to punish.

Vs. IC's, once you get that split, dont go for popo if hes just standing there, nair, fair, spike, whatever. get nana asap, ness is great at doing this. also a tip, you can Psi Fire IC's when theyre grabbing the ledge. It hits nana and a Pillar will set off. against IC's, what you want to do is space with fair, being wary of their Side-B and when they do it punish then split them up. once you get a stock camp you pretty much just camp with lag-cancelled Psi Fire and using PKT if youre on the moving platform on SV.

Vs Fox, never airdodge land, just retreating fair, otherwise you risk getting dashgrabbed or usmashed. only against few characters can punish a retreating fair.

Vs Wolf, when he jump away, you should too and Psi Magnet. let your jump carry you a little bit off the ground and it should be safe to do it. this stops wolf from spamming, or makes him more cautious when he does. If you want to PKT him, loop it under him as he falls with his reflector. otherwise you did well in this match.

Vs Lucario, Use retreating lag cancelled Psi Fires more, not just pivot ones, these stop his aerial approach. you shoudl do some retreating sh fairs do make sure he doesnt just run at you and fair. this mu to me is like a race of who gets the fair in first. dont try to punish lucario when hes above us, dair beats everything. rather, wait for a dair then punish with fair, or PKT (like you did at 4:40). dont SH at lucario, he should be approaching you in this MU. dont use your back throw till 110%+, it wont kill lucario any lower and just stales the move.

from watching your videos, you have a bad habit or DJing back to the stage then airdodging right into the opponent as you land. you dont need to do this, just grab the ledge then PKT to get them away, or after you DJ PKT2 yourself directly into the ground, from where people will try to attack you and you can wither stand up, roll away or do the getup attack.
These arent really rules, but more suggestions for improvement/mixups.
Thank you. I'll work on this. Is there any guides or anything that I could check out for Ness to learn the PKT at the ledge. I keep trying it, but I do not grab the ledge afterwards. I just die. and how do I Psi Fire?
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
2,045
Location
cave plantation
To PKT off the ledge, input your analog stick away from the stage, then instantly jump and up-b. the sooner the up-b, the lower you will be but its more safe. you'll learn the timing. you have to cancel the PKT straight away though, so send it into the stage asap.

lag cancelled psi fire is FH + Side-b at the same time, and when you're about to hit the ground you can DJ>Nair and this catches people off guard, or allows you to DJ>airdodge so you arent hit. there should be some videos on it if you look up lag cancelled Psi/PK fire
 

Nido

ily Sebby
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Jan 25, 2012
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Forsworn

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
66
Location
Miami, FL (Country Club)
The main points for me would be:

- Maybe I'm just a more aggressive/hasty player, but I will almost always try to hassle an opponent recovering onto the stage or from the ledge (unless they're MK or someone with good edge play, and even then maybe once in a while). Whether it be double-jumped aerials/jump to PKT2 mindgames/baiting airdodges for high-recovering opponents, or dair/fair/nair/aerial PK Fire/yoyo hanging on edge/PKT for when they're on the ledge, I want to annoy the heck out of them and make them work to get back onstage every single time. Try just trying to gimp opponents with the PKT tail when they're recovering low or about level with the ledge. Aim to hit them right when they'll use their second jump so they don't get much height from it, or if their up-B recovery is just poor in general. Nice grab releases and jabs at the edge to get/keep them offstage, though. Especially against Marth I try to go real aggro/get reads when they're recovering since he can't grab you in the air/on the ledge, so that's when I try to hurt him the most. The matchup will always be frustrating, though.

- Not enough N-air for my taste, especially out of shield. It's fast and has good priority when the move starts. If you can't incorporate it onstage more, try to use it when edgeguarding/for a fast KO move at high percents.

Overall a nice, patient Ness that needs to Ness ditto me again on AiB chat. :p
 

Forsworn

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
66
Location
Miami, FL (Country Club)
http://www.twitch.tv/morksqc/b/336295176
Well no one critiqued my Ness yet, so I'd like it to be done soon, please. My set starts at around 1:38:45.

Aside from having better control of PKT(2), anything else I should work on? =P
(I lack MU experience :p)
- Space aerials on opponent's shield better when landing so you're outside/not too far into their shieldgrab range.

- Mix in empty jumps every once in a while to see how they react. You can add SH FF air-dodging into the ground -> grab/shieldgrab if you see them shielding a lot, and mix that up however you want as you go. Air-dodge/land behind them -> turn-around grab, too. Just don't get too predictable.

- I love PKT as well, but I use it less against Wolf since he has a reflector and has the air speed to get to Ness while you're maneuvering it. Although I'm not sure if Wolf gets hurt if he passes through the tail while reflecting. Great PKT2 after the u-throw when he held reflector too long in that second game, though. I approve. ;)

- Try to be below Wolf as much as possible since his D-air isn't that great. Try some double-jumped aerials if you need to chase him better or close the distance to hit him.

- Some more SH/forward double-jumped N-air out of shield to counterattack better, and go for grabs too if you notice them shielding a lot after hitting your shield.

- Nice DI on some of those potential KO moves. And that jab lock game 1 as well, though there wasn't a finisher at the end of it.

You did pretty well against that Wolf seeing as you lack Wolf experience and he seemed pretty competent.
 

yoshi8984

Smash Lord
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TimmyTendo
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Alright, thanks. I also learned to watch out when he uses his Side-B from now on. :p

The Jab Lock on Game 1, I forgot he could DI off the stage because if he didn't he probably still would've been on stage and then I could've finished with a F-Tilt lol. Well, that was my fault. :p
Speaking of that, you are right about spacing my attacks, I know I got punished a few times for doing an F-Tilt and other things on his shield. =P

idk why but I haven't been grabbing much lately, usually its been only when I can kill them with B-Throw. I gotta work on that too lol

Also I was using Yo-yos less than I normally do, but I guess I was being kinda predictable with them lol
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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cave plantation
Alright, thanks. I also learned to watch out when he uses his Side-B from now on. :p

The Jab Lock on Game 1, I forgot he could DI off the stage because if he didn't he probably still would've been on stage and then I could've finished with a F-Tilt lol. Well, that was my fault. :p
Speaking of that, you are right about spacing my attacks, I know I got punished a few times for doing an F-Tilt and other things on his shield. =P

idk why but I haven't been grabbing much lately, usually its been only when I can kill them with B-Throw. I gotta work on that too lol

Also I was using Yo-yos less than I normally do, but I guess I was being kinda predictable with them lol
Never finish a jab lock with f-tilt, always f-smash D:
 

P.I.E.

Smash Ace
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841
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lol im proud of you timmy xD if you shielded that sideB you could've batted him into game 3 xD but bthrow when you have the correct opportunity :p you saw how you played in game 2? Don't hold those skills back for when you're in danger of a loss, always play your absolute hardest with that "Oh man, I have to go in" mentality, it helps a bunch :D
 

Tikao

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
618
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Berlin, Germany
okay , my first match here , so i need critique (obvious :p )
http://de.twitch.tv/bonnsmash/b/350223318 (yeah german commentary xD)
starts at 4:00:00 + a few seconds (or something like that)
maybe not the best match to show how i play ness , cause i don't use pkt2 that much like in game 2 , but it's the only set i could post here

also , i don't know how to sdi out of Pit's fsmash xD ...

and it would be great to don't say only things , I've done wrong , so also things , I've done right , because i need some mixup and i'm just like trying some new stuff and changing my playstyle a bit , so it's like "that is already good , don't change it"
 

Luco

Smash Hero
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Okay well I really enjoyed that Bair extension of hitboxes on SV that killed pit, that was just great.

Iirc you can SDI out by smashing the stick the way pit is facing (basically the way out). I could be wrong though because it's been a while since i've versed a decent pit.

Remember with pit, you don't have to approach. His approaches aren't that amazing so it becomes a game of bait and punish. I would have liked to see some more grabs in to combos, for instance my favourite is Dthrow to Fair, that kind of thing. i enjoyed the PKT2 edge-guarding but sometimes it got a little off track, I assume you know your PKT edge-guarding and won't really hassle you on that because it was probably just an honest mistake.

Against pit, as Ness and Lucas (since this applies to both), try to make your thunder take you up instead of to the side. That way, if he reflects you it isn't such a problem. It also would have been nice to see you jump offstage and try to pressure him with Fair and Bair because his upB at first is REALLY unsafe. I mean, hit him out of it and he's a dead angel. :p

Uhh, I did enjoy your Fair spacing, thought that was nice as well.

I'll leave it to more experienced Ness' to review and critique, that's just my thoughts on it. In all, you have a decent Ness. ^_^
 

Nido

ily Sebby
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Jan 25, 2012
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961
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Australia
I swear I'm watching my own Ness except with more Fairs and less Bair, speaking of which, use more Bair, it's godly

Magnet cancel please, vs Pit it can be used to jump after eating an arrow and then recover high to avoid another reflection.

:phone:
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
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cave plantation
okay , my first match here , so i need critique (obvious :p )
http://de.twitch.tv/bonnsmash/b/350223318 (yeah german commentary xD)
starts at 4:00:00 + a few seconds (or something like that)
maybe not the best match to show how i play ness , cause i don't use pkt2 that much like in game 2 , but it's the only set i could post here

also , i don't know how to sdi out of Pit's fsmash xD ...

and it would be great to don't say only things , I've done wrong , so also things , I've done right , because i need some mixup and i'm just like trying some new stuff and changing my playstyle a bit , so it's like "that is already good , don't change it"
to di/sdi out of the fsmash, when you get GR'd, DI close to pit, and then sdi/di the first hit of fsmash behind and above pit, then punish with uair/nair i think. not sure about bair.

okay in this MU you used PsiMag wayyyyy too much. It's not very good on Ness because of the horrendous endlag (if you dont magnet something), and it can be baited and punished quite easily unless you run away and use it (even then its risky, you could get dash attacked easily.

Offstage, look for the moving platform, that would have saved your first stock. if there is no platform to mixup, recover high. if you must recover low, jump>airdodge back on stage, and if you are punished DI back onto the stage. a little % is better than being gimped. if you have to PKT2, try to use it directly under the ledge and recover straight up, so pit cant send you backwards.

your PKT1 use the last stock first match was great, your brought it back to almost even. That Pit Spammmmmmedddd barrel roll, so remember to SH dair a lot to punish that noob strat.

against ZSS dont use bair OOS, its bad. nair OOS or out of a weak hit

that is all
 

Tikao

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
618
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Berlin, Germany
Offstage, look for the moving platform, that would have saved your first stock
i just forgot Pit can Reflect our pkt2 xD ... later , i recovered safe against him ... i dont have any MU experience against Pit , so now i'll remember this D:
 

Luco

Smash Hero
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If it's any consolation Tikao, the exact same thing happened to me when I first met invisi. It just takes practice and experience. ^_^
 

baconator25

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Messages
34
Location
Queens, NY
http://www.twitch.tv/rundas1234/b/371078061

11:00 is me vs Will
33:00 is me vs John #'s

I had a bunch more matches from that night, but unfortunately, these were the only recorded ones.

Hopefully I can get some more up soon.

On a side note, I love Ness's dsmash.

EDIT:

I also have a LOT of recorded matches here http://www.twitch.tv/rundas1234/b/372787280

They're almost all against Will, but there's a match against John #'s here and there.

I pretty much get consistently 2 stocked by him (with the occasional 1 stock, occasional 3 stock). Ness vs DK is definitely not a fun match up.
 

SFA Smiley

The SFA King
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Jan 19, 2010
Messages
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Virginia/Arizona
Hey guys ive been using ness a lot lately and think i wanna make him one of my lower tiers since i no longer have any. Ive always wanted to use him but just never felt the need to learn him. Ive got some friendlies uploading that i'd love to have critiqued
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
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cave plantation
Hey guys ive been using ness a lot lately and think i wanna make him one of my lower tiers since i no longer have any. Ive always wanted to use him but just never felt the need to learn him. Ive got some friendlies uploading that i'd love to have critiqued
sure thang bby gurl
post and ill give ya my input
 

Kokomaniac

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
359
Location
Massachusetts
Ok, I use pk fire in many different ways. Full hop retreating or non retreating pkf is good for catching them in a pillar and mixing up. Against those with slow approach or that are big, like Charizard in this example, throwing out max range grounded pk fire is usually pretty safe and can get them caught for some damage and follow up opportunities. You can cover your recovery with it when you're high up in the air by throwing it out above them and if you can get it to blow up, recovering becomes easy. Finally, use it angled or just on the ground to try and get them caught in a pillar offstage for gimp, harass, or a set up for dair or footstool (footstool if you're totally badass). Just mix it up in your gameplay and you'll feel out how you like to use it.

In general, use dair and nair a lot more, they're really good and using nair as an out of shield option is great. If you're facing an opponent that can trade fairs with you, a lot of the time you'll have to abandon fair and use nair instead so that instead of trading 1 damage for 14 damage, you'll trace evenly. Dair is really strong especially when canceled on the ground and can set up for spikes and jab locks and is generally a great move, especially when you're above someone on platform.

You're really really aggressive which can be good, but you get yourself killed by going ham offstage or being really risky. Play safer and pick your spots to go in. Space with fair, you're just kinda running at people with it but spacing it right will keep you really safe and dangerous to your opponent at the same time

Watch some videos on YouTube, I think shaky's matches are good ones to learn from. He plays really well and he casters highlight the mistakes the makes so that you can avoid them.
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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cave plantation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozj0_1TLrCg&list=UUwnhsWt3-73_qm_m89bBkfQ&index=7

What I mainly need advice on is knowing which move to use in what situations. Also how to use PK Fire correctly. Thanks for whoever can help me.
writing as i watch
you have some amazing bair's.
also recovery vs squirtle, send ur PKT low, and try and hit urself upwards on an angle after he water guns you away from the stage.
ns suicide lol
if you dair on someones shield try and fast fall it afterwards to give yourself less lag
you should do Pivot PK fires as a mixup, or fullhop PK fires.
when edgehogging Ivy, tilt you control stick a very little amount upwards (not too much or you'll get up)and you wont get stage spiked like that - this works against olimar too
use bair/nair to DI after getting hit, theyre the least laggy.
very much enjoy the dash -> perfect shield -> grab.
you need to use nair more, its like ness' best move, fair doesnt come close to it. nair is the move you use in any situation.
try using SH airdodge as an approach option, its a nice mixup.
learn to use pivot grabs more, you miss a lot of dash grabs because you went too far.
 

Kokomaniac

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
359
Location
Massachusetts
Yeah nice tips. When he was talking about making dair have less lag that's what I was talking about when I said canceling dair on the ground. I'm pretty sure you can DI faster out of ivys bullet seed up move thingy but I'm not sure how
 
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