Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[kennypu]

agree with kenny. lrn pkt2 angles > almost anything.

Question: Does anyone else BUT me see potential in PKjump? Will anyone ever start using it again? Does anyone have super quick fingers like I do in order to do almost all variations without majorly altering controls (L as jump and go insane)?

Does anyone use PKjump other than me?


less doubtful of receiving answers:
How does everyone else use dash attack? dtilt? ftilt? bair?

^need to see. Give as much depth as you can with the last one, but less with dtilt and ftilt.

in real matches, I use PK jump a lot. Most good people know there is a landing lag after a usual pk fire, so they will try to approach you after the pkf. I usually follow up the pk jump with a rising fair or nair to punish them.

the only time i really use dtilt is when I'm going for the kill. dtilt trip->bat in the face is a nice kill move if it lands correctly. I know there are other uses for it, but as I like rangeful moves, I don't use it very often.

dash attack i use a lot. the range is wonderful. One things I am starting to do that you guys should do too, is to buffer the dash attack after an aerial move that slightly lags, such as short hop->uair. After learning BDacus with Diddy, I was looking to see if I can find any uses for it with ness. yeah the up smash slides a little bit and can be useful, I concluded that instead of doing BDacus, it'll be smarter to just buffer the dash attack and not the up smash, as it has more range. For those of you who don't know what a BDacus is, its a fairly new AT where you utilize the lag of an action to buffer a dash attack, then buffer a upsmash after buffering the dash attack.

bair is a very spammable move. its easy to connect two sweet spotted bairs at low percentage, great killing move if you want to use it for that, and has a long enough sex kick effect.

but yeah, pkfire is my favorite <3

 

[kennypu]

PKflash is horrible. The uncharged is very laggy and telegraphed and even if it hits it's not even strong when uncharged.

seeing that you're not a ness main, i'm assuming you don't know how to use it, but an uncharged pk flash will be used correctly after you jump a little bit. this reduces the landing lag greatly, it is less laggy then a grounded pk thunder. It is also not that horrible, its a great air dodge punisher. the timing makes it good enough to punish air dodges in the air. also most player jump slightly when they see pk flash, possibly giving you a mind game advantage of some sort.

 

[Placebo Effect]

but yeah, pkfire is my favorite <3

Air PK Fiyah to Ness missile. :3

 

[Eagleye893]

I'm surprised Kenny. Well maybe not. I know you know ness like the other higher up ness players.

For PK jump, do you also use the reverse or wavebounce variation? I can only do the wavebounce one apart from straight forward.

At barto, it takes a while to master. Trust me. I practiced a lil yesterday and failed.

 

[Mister Eric]

Hellu Ness Boards, you might be seeing me a lot here in the next little while asking questions about your character and how they perform on a certain stage.
Character boards seem to cycle through incomplete MU threads to new ones in hope to update them and finally complete them. This is the R.O.B. Boards attempt at completing a sufficient stage-discussion thread and I'm going to try my best to get accurate and thorough information, but I'll need your help. This will be the only question with an introductory. I just wanted to say hello and let you know that if you guys need info on anything for R.O.B. don't hesitate asking. ^_^

Anywho!

Q: How does Ness fair off on Delfino Plaza in general and against R.O.B.. Why is it good or bad? What can Ness abuse and what might possibly annoy you that R.O.B. can do on this stage? On a scale of 1 - 10, what do you see Ness' chances of doing well on this stage against R.O.B. 1 being the worst for you 10 being the best.

thanks guys =]
<beep3

 

[kennypu]

I'm surprised Kenny. Well maybe not. I know you know ness like the other higher up ness players.

For PK jump, do you also use the reverse or wavebounce variation? I can only do the wavebounce one apart from straight forward.

At barto, it takes a while to master. Trust me. I practiced a lil yesterday and failed.

lol what are you suprised about? I've been a while long enough to have knowledge on these things, I'm just not as active as you guys on the boards, so I guess i can be forgotten in the shadows :3.

and about the variations, i do the reverse a lot, but the wavebounce I can't really do all the time (i hate b-sticking) so I don't really use it

 

[Eagleye893]

lol what are you suprised about? I've been a while long enough to have knowledge on these things, I'm just not as active as you guys on the boards, so I guess i can be forgotten in the shadows :3.

and about the variations, i do the reverse a lot, but the wavebounce I can't really do all the time (i hate b-sticking) so I don't really use it

Darn... things never get out as I intend. I should've used this thing to scratch out the surprised comment and just say "meh, I actually would've expected it" as I was thinking.

And even then, I meant consistently in normal play, such as tourneys or MMs or srs friendlies. But oh well. Doesn't matter. Mostly everyone should know it by now, but I don't see many people use it in tourneys.


Also, I hate bstick. I just learned to have fast fingers. The wavebounce involves a near instantaneous flick, which is somewhat difficult to get. After a while, it's muscle memory.

Think dashdancing (brawl style, not melee style), but somewhat faster. That's how quickly you need to move the analog stick while also pressing jump and b.

GL with it. xD









DARN!!! I NEED TO GET FOCUSED!!! I DISTRACT MYSELF TOO OFTEN!!!

 

[Roguemagus]

I'm working on improving my Ness with advanced techniques (I have the instincts, but need to work on refinement). What should I work on first?

* PK Jump
* PK Thunder games (tailwhipping into II, aiming it right during recovery)

 

[kennypu]

imo, thunder is more important. It is needed for recovery, and good pkt control can rack up very fast damage in a safe and efficient way. pkt to pkt2 is something you can work on, but I don't think is necessary to practice, etc. since it is situational.

 

[Bartolon]

2nd one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Ng2nh0W9Y <-- There are many of them in that vid =D

 

[Eagleye893]

Pkt is over everything... Learn that first...

Then I'll help with pkjump.

 

[Dajayman]

PKT game is VERY important. PKT is one of Ness' most reliable moves if you can perfect it's control and you can predict your opponent well. PKT is both a very reliable and safe move, which is invaluable in any character's gameplay. It's essential to master it if you want to be a Ness main.

I think the most important PKT technique to learn is tailwhipping into a PKT hit. Uthrow an opponent and try to keep them in the air as long as you can with PKT. Learning how to loop your PKT as your juggling your opponent will ensure that your opponent will not hit the ground until after 2-3 PKT hits, or about 22% damage.

 

[Roguemagus]

Thanks for the training hint. Should I just use Mario as a dummy or experiment with smaller/bigger characters?

 

[Neon Ness]

Actually I don't think practicing looping PKT against a CPU will help that much. CPU is not very good at avoiding PKT from what I remember, they become really predictable really fast/fall for dumb things, whereas a human will most likely force you to loop it in different/more effective ways. But if you have no tournaments/humans to practice against I guess it can't be helped.

But training mode is fine for practicing PKT angles when recovering/PK Jump timing.

 

[Dajayman]

PKT looping practice needs to be practiced vs. humans, CPUs can be PKT juggled all day.

 

[Eagleye893]

PKT looping practice needs to be practiced vs. humans, CPUs can be PKT juggled all day.

This.

Practice PKT2 trajectories/paths in training mode if anything. Get down inverted and straight up and be able to sweetspot the ledge from every area... even above it... xD (I don't think that you can if you are directly above it... am I right by this?)

CPUs should only be practiced on if you want tech skill, like PKjump or timing every attack. The actual application of the move should only happen against humans, or else you won't get proper examples of where a technique can be slipped in.

Rules:
Play wifi for matchup knowledge
Go to tourneys for knowing your actual player strength and character knowledge/strength
Ask the ness mains for anything that you might need help on.

We are a wealth of information all combined in a couple of minds. Ask and we'll probably have a suggestion/answer/solution.

If we don't know it, congratulations on finding something we don't know... but tell us about it.

 

[PSI.kick]

Hey so I learned something on the tl forum that I havnt seen anywhere here. Idk if its new or not but its somewhat useful and easy to do, if you hold down on the control stick while pkt2 you dont auto-sweet spot the edge. hope it helps

 

[Dajayman]

That isn't new, I've been doing that as DK for a while to land laglessly back on the stage.

There is rarely a time as Ness where you don't want to autosweet spot the ledge, since not sweetspotting the ledge at the wrong angle can cause a "crash" and you'll fall to your death. This could only be useful if your opponent is right by the ledge expecting you to sweetspot.

 

[PSI.kick]

I'm having a lot of trouble jab locking. Can someone give me some tips on timing and spacing for it?

 

[Xebenkeck]

I'm having a lot of trouble jab locking. Can someone give me some tips on timing and spacing for it?

Honestly the jab lock is all about rhythm, you have to get into the rhythm of "jab-walk forward abit-STOP(otherwise you will ftilt)-jab again. Spacing heavily depends on how your opponent is DIing iduring the jab lock, if they arne't at all it's easy to perform, if they DI toward you it's easier becuase you don't have to walk as far, and if they DI away you have to be pretty percise to walking forward and jabbing. The only advice i can give is practise the jab lock in training, once you get the rhythem down, it's easy to perform consistently.

 

[PSI.kick]

Ok thanks.

 

[PSI.kick]

I have a question about grabs, whenever you are grabbed (as any character really) how do you fight free other than waiting for ten seconds, cuz button mashing really doesn't seem to be the answer...

 

[Eagleye893]

twirl around the analog and cstick simultaneously... really fast.

then again, it still is button mashing.... this method works best, and is really the only way to break out.

 

[Dajayman]

Spin the control stick smoothly and tap the cstick. Make sure the cstick returns to neutral every tap or the cstick inputs won't register. This technique allows the most inputs for breaking a grab, master it.

 

[P.I.E.]

What's the best strategy against a Marth in your opininon?

 

[Neon Ness]

All Marth players play differently, so there's no single strategy against the character. Just know that his superior range makes aerial zoning difficult since Ness can't really zone well on the ground... bair/fair/SH dair are probably Ness' best zoning tools, but it can be a rough fight.

You just need to play Marth players and watch for patterns while fighting them, and try different things out in friendlies. Also ask the person for advice if you lose against them often. Watching Ness v Marth videos might help a little, could give you ideas if you know what to look for.

Don't get grabbed. Or at least, not on one edge so you get infinited all the way to the other side of the stage. I'm pretty sure Marth has KO options out of grab release.

There aren't really any gimmicks or tricks Ness has on Marth, so it's pretty straightforward.

 

[Eagleye893]

Marth has a for-sure dsmash after grab releasing us... ground release specifically.

Marth has the gimmicks on ness if anything:

-- he can fair, upb, counter, and sideb from within our pkfire (I've had all happen to me from my friend... it's annoying)
-- his quick recovery makes it near impossible to get a pkt on him while he is going up...
-- gr... yeah
-- nearly all of his attacks will barely or outright outrange us. fair retreated doesn't help 100% of the time.
-- PKjump only helps if you can mindgame them... otherwise get upb'd.
-- PSImag wind sets up auto-tippers for marth.
-- PKT onstage is essentially useless...

We, as ness, are at a severe disadvantage to start... A severely defensive marth will win much more than a somewhat aggressive marth. All marth needs to do is fair camp and land and do other random things. Anything we do can be punished or has a counter on marth's end.

Ness has little: we have pkt2... good luck hitting with that super consistently.
our bair? first we have to get behind him or else it is useless.
our uair? same as bair, but even closer to the ground.
nair? good luck getting that close.
fair? have fun doing 1-2 damage each hit without any means of getting further in. A smart marth will be able to avoid this move entirely.
dair? I wish.
dtilt? ... I'm insane for even asking... my favorite move doesn't work unless you get really lucky.
ftilt? perhaps... punishing a whiffed fsmash... maybe powershielded dsmash... I have to see.
utilt? NO. even worse than dtilt.
jab? perfect shield third hit to upb = for ness. even not upb, sideb.
dashgrab? you can get it... it's really the only way in.
dashattack? ... I have only started getting this perfected recently. I need to assure it works
OoS options? Aerials are a maybe... mostly not though. Grabs = no. Usmash = maybe, but sword cuts through it like butter. PKT?!?!?!!?
PKfire? already said no... not enough followup. if it does hit, you can probably get a pkt, but that's iff it hits.
PKT? again...
PKFlash? NO
PSImag? Worst matchup to use it in.


We have nothing to do really. marth has so much over us.

I say outright, this matchup will eventually get to 75:25 or worse in marth's favor, once marth mains see what I see.

 

[Jiffyboob]

If Marth likes to do that FAir spacing crap, walk and then shield it when it comes out. You should be able to sneak in some OoS stuff or a dash grab when he lands.

 

[Dajayman]

PKT works well on Marths playing too defensive, just avoid having Marth attack the PKT head. Remember we have a projectile advantage against Marth, use that and whatever advantage we got on Marth. Avoid BF, Marth does too well there. FD is probably the best starter to choose. The openness is good for popping up and PKT juggling, our safest way to rack up damage on Marth. FD is also pretty large, outside of tipper smashes Marth is pretty pathetic at killing so you can live pretty long at FD. Brinstar is a good cp against Marth, take him there if you do lose.

 

[Neon Ness]

Remember we have a projectile advantage against Marth

Advantage? Like you said, he has aerials to eat the head. Actually now that I think of it, can Marth Counter PKT's tail/head? Lol I wonder if anyone's ever tried that.

Avoid BF, Marth does too well there.

How come?

outside of tipper smashes Marth is pretty pathetic at killing

When you say pathetic, do you mean his kill moves aren't effective until relatively high percents? Or do you mean you don't think he has a lot of kill moves?

Also remember in our current ruleset Marth doesn't have to kill you to win.

 

[Dajayman]

Marth is weak underneath himself while in the air, he'll have to dair to kill the head which too low to the ground = big landing lag. Counter could probably work, but can easily be "countered" by simply tailwhipping.

Even if Marth does kill the PKT head, if Ness played safe enough Marth won't be able to hurt us. A character having to deal with a projectile game is something I still consider an advantage.

When I say his kill moves are pathetic, I mean that they don't kill early enough. Untippered smashes don't start killing until after 130-140% on Ness. Hell, a fresh untippered fsmash at 120% near the ledge is something I survived once (my awesome DI :3). That is pathetic in my eyes.

And do you mean that Marth doesn't need to kill us to win because he can just time us out? I seriously doubt Marth is capable of time outs, he ain't Sonic or Metaknight. Just a simple LGL would make Marth unable to timeout, but even a ruleset doesn't have LGL then I seriously doubt Marth would resort to planking a Ness, a 7:3 matchup. The Marth player would have to be extremely gay, like gayer than Big Gay Al to even think about doing that to Ness. But who knows? Maybe that kind of a gay Marth main exists...

 

[Neon Ness]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if Counter worked on tailwhipping. I've never seen it done, maybe it's not possible... but I mean the tail does have a hitbox, so. Someone should try it out. My Wii's not set up lol.

Also, I agree in that Marth probably won't be timing out Nesses anytime soon. But I at least wanted to throw it out there. It's something people should be aware of before there's like 30 seconds left on the clock and you realize what's happening. There's no rule against being "gay" and in a tournament people will do whatever they think gives them the best chance of winning.

For the record, I think any character can time out any other character. It's just way less likely for some than others.

 

[Eagleye893]

Any player will play like that to get the win, dajay. As soon as marths realize that, we are screwed.

Never assume that no player of a character hasnt the proper knowledge to take you down, because that puts you in a worse situation.

 

[PSI.kick]

Ok ive seen a bunch of stuff about power shielding.
A) what is it
B) how do you do it
C) what's it useful for

 

[StarLight]

Kay, some Marth v. Ness info.

Neon, tailwhip will set off counter, yes. Other than dair and counter though, marth has a couple options to avoid and/or cancel pkt that you should be aware of. Neutral B charged is one(pretty good momentum boost), and bair being the other(Hitbox begins quite low). None of these are amazing options, granted, but they're there.

Attempting to dash grab between fairs will often get you a DB to the face.

Marth suffers both on the ledge and from being juggled. Attempt to keep him in these states for as long as possible. Watch out for ledge-dropped nair.

Just because Marth can DS, counter, etc. out of PKF, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be using it. It still creates a moment where you can attempt to bait these moves and punish accordingly.

Similarly Ness' fair is still useful here, decent option oos on Marth's fair(nonDASed). Just be careful and realize that you can't throw it out as often as you'd like to.

Get a feel for when the Marth will DB. If you shield that *****, it's free %.

If the Marth you're playing against is any kind of good at spacing, tippers will occur. Also, tacking on the extra ~20% to move within untippered kill range isn't too difficult if they're patient. Oh, and they always have gr -> dsmash, as stated earlier. Marth has trouble killing some characters, truth, but Ness isn't usually one of them.

tbh, this is a matchup I would simply counterpick on. If you're stubborn then try and keep your cool, don't get discouraged, and play as safe as possible. **** with their playstyle(Camp campers to force aggression, etc). Put simply, outplay them =/

Edit : tidE

 

[Neon Ness]

Ok ive seen a bunch of stuff about power shielding.
A) what is it
B) how do you do it
C) what's it useful for

Powershielding is when you put up your shield right before an attack hits you.

If you do it right, you'll hear a CLANK! and your shield will disappear quickly afterwards, allowing you to do whatever you want if you react fast enough.

It's useful for being able to punish faster. If you shield something normally, you get shield pushback which may knock you too far away to punish your opponent. Plus if you pshield you don't get any closer to having your shield broken.

One way to practice it is to run up and try to powershield slow projectiles, just to get a feel for it. If you have a friend to help you out, have them use Snake's Side B. Try to run towards it/stand still and powershield it by shielding right before it hits.

Put simply, outplay them =/

I think that was the most important part of the post. Words to live by!

 

[Eagleye893]

Why do I see tumbleweeds passing by?
I believe it might make me cry.
For nobody in here will post,
Not even those who do most.
I guess I'll just wait for some time. Sigh...


^my rhyming is terrible, but you get the point.

Also, can someone critique me on these terrible wifi matches?
I'll get more up ASAP, but I've gotta write essays at the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLbyIIJ6iJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taBRCtXdLj0

 

[Neon Ness]

They'd probably be better placed in the video thread. :l

 

[Eagleye893]

Ino, but nobody said anything...

 

[PSI.kick]

Crap my ness buddies i've neglected you xD

anyways, anyone have some tips for the olimar mu? I understand the oli aspect cuz i main him but what do i do as ness haha