Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[Uffe]

I can't say how to defeat Meta Knight with Ness. IC's on the other hand can be dealt with, I believe. Things you want to focus on when fighting the Ice Climbers are avoiding their grabs which are probably the worst in the game, and separating the two.

Advantages

1. PK Fire blocks off Ice Shots
2. PK Fire has decent ground range which should keep you out of harms way
3. PK Fire can trap IC's for a bit, but is a lot more useful when they're desynced, causing them to worry about their ally for a bit
4. PK Fire is also good when they're using their Blizzard
5. Forward air has good range, use it
6. Neutral air is good for separating the IC's
7. When Nana is off the stage, you can spike or nair her
8. One Ice Climber is easier than two

Disadvantages

1. Their infinite for one
2. Ice Shots go far
3. Ice Shots have a possibility of gimping
4. Blizzard has a possibility of gimping if used correctly
5. Unable to get grabbed without being punished
6. Better at baiting

The last two advantages aren't really advantages, I guess. But it is true that you can gimp Nana, even Popo, when they're off the stage. Without his ally, Popo has a harder time returning to the stage safely. Just avoid the Ice Shots as they return and give them a problem. Also, if they're above you, use your PK Thunder well and try to juggle one or the other. Popo is a bigger threat than Nana, but again, you want to separate the two. One more thing, take them to a stage with platforms. It shouldn't be hard to find a stage with platforms.

 

[Eagleye893]

I don't like PKfire against ICs, but I guess since everyone else DOES; it is useful enough. I was going to write a paragraph explanation of something, but really I can't think of anything to say that PKfire isn't useful. I couldn't think of anything to say of how PKfire should be used against ICs. All I CAN say is be safe with all approaches and other opportunities taken. Play as if your opponent is a marth that could infinite you still and somehow randomly acquired the ability to shoot projectiles. That's like an "OH ****!" moment, but I've based all grab avoidance measures off of ICs, marth, Pikmin, and MK (infinite, infinite + range, RANGE LIKE MAD!, Dashgrab that hates me) and combined into one.

 

[Dajayman]

PK Fire prevents ice block camping, since you unfortunately can't absorb ice blocks.

PK Fire > grab attempts if spaced well.

Fullhop lag-cancel Pk Fire = ****

 

[Uffe]

PK Fire is a decent attack. But you should properly space yourself when you use it against IC's. After all, their grab range isn't that great, and the only things that can really do harm are the Ice Shots and Blizzard. If they're unable to grab you, then you're basically safe. Of course I'm not saying that PK Fire is something you should rely on alone.

 

[Eagleye893]

I like pkfire, but i say it is meh in comparison to pkt and ftilt and dtilt and dashattack.

 

[Dajayman]

I like PK Fire better than all those moves you listed Eagle.

 

[Eagleye893]

Awwww... But dtilt is too pro!

Also, psimag. Gotta spam that.

 

[Bartolon]

They aren't. They both fail, live with it.

 

[Yink]

I personally think dtilt is a great attack, and so is PKF if you know what you're doing with it.

 

[Dajayman]

PK Fire is top tier in Ness' moves.

 

[Eagleye893]

correction, PKT is ness' top tier move. Here's how it goes.


GOD TIER!!!:
PKT/PKT2

TOP:
Bthrow
PKfire
Fair
Nair

HIGH:
Bair
Uair
Dtilt
Dsmash/Usmash
Uthrow
Utilt
Dair
Fthrow

MID:
Dashattack
PSImag
Ftilt
Jab
Dthrow
Getup attack (ledge <100%)

LOW:
Getup attack (stage)
Pummel
Getup attack (ledge >100%)

BOTTOM:
PKflash



Grabs don't count as attacks
Reasons, From bottom up.



PKflash.... It's terrible unless you get lucky or can mindgame REALLY well.

Getup attack... It's so slow.
Pummel... It's pummel. It can be quick for ness, but most of the time it won't make much of a difference.
Getup attack... can be punished, but fairly quick

Getup attack... Quick and well ranged.
Dthrow.... You need to be able to read your opponent very well. Unless you can do that superbly, you suffer inflicting less percent.
Jab.... It can help with jab-lock, but it is almost terrible anywhere else. If you are lucky, you can fake people out or even get the jab combo off fully, but otherwise there are many flaws in using it. It's good when your opponent isn't expecting it.
Ftilt..... good enough, but not great. It can give some knockback at reasonable speed, but doesn't have superb range. Good damage, but not great speed and range.
PSImag..... Underrated move. It heals you, it pushes people with wind, you get moving very easily around the stage, but people don't like the fact that it doesn't hurt people or push with enough wind.
Dashattack...... again an underrated attack. It does have fairly good range, can punish well, but people are worried about being punished out of it. Shielding the attack has some bad results for ness.

Fthrow...... I don't know why I stuck it at bottom high, but it is fairly good. Good percent, GTFO move, can get people offstage or in bad situations. Fairly consistent knockback... not bad, but not great.
Dair.... ness' supposed godly spike. It helps in many situations (can setup a jablock also), but it is fairly slow and CAN have some lag if not done correctly. If it were faster, it'd surely be one of ness' top moves.
Utilt.... I put it under other things, because it does have it's uses, but not too often. It can put people into juggles, or combo at really early percents. It kills more easily than usmash, and can put people above you fairly consistently if spaced correctly. It is a quick move.
Uthrow.... Good damage, puts opponents in a juggle situation, puts you below the opponent for pkt wtf's. Good, but a smart player can avoid your followup stuffs.
Usmash/Dsmash.... these come hand-in-hand. Charging hitbox = very nice. Can knockback fairly well with dsmash. good shield pressure in some situations. Good, but if shielded properly you are in a world of hurt.
Dtilt.... THIS MOVE IS TOO PRO!!! This is my tier list.... I'm going off of some majority opinion, but this is for serious. If you get down all of it's potential followups and mindgames, it is unbeatable!!! It has to be offline in many cases or else you can't get your reaction down properly. You must be able to react quicker than your opponent for a full advantage, but a planned followup (nair, grab, dtilt once more, jab combo, etc.) is another way to keep some people from taking advantage of a hole you leave in your strategy.
Uair.... Great killing move. Autocancel on ground/landing, Hits people up (floaties beware!), combos into utilt early, good percent. DAS lead-ins.... great.
Bair.... Great DAS leader AND a good killing move. You've got bair>uair, Bair>nair, bair>first few hits fair.... Bair kills really early, good range, good percent, can lead into itself fairly consistently at low percents from FH.... Many peoples' favorite.

Nair..... Another great DAS leader, good speed, good damage and staying hitbox, leads into uair/fair nicely, but not bair. Great for pushing back opponents. Can provide minor pressure offstage and onstage. A great move overall due to it's many assets.
Fair.... This has been rated highly since the start. Great spacing, DAS to nair, can rack up damage if your opponent isn't careful.... I would personally rate this a lot lower, but I'll agree with some majority opinion.
PKFire.... Okay, despite what I say, this move is great. I don't like it at times, but it still manages to pull through often. Pillar = . Initial hit damage is good. Almost always forces an opponent to approach safely. Pillar allows more pressure by you UNLESS reflector opponent. Good move, but SDI and DI can make it less than good.
Bthrow.... great killing move. In fact, the most feared of all ness moves... apart from a PKT2 to the face. It's killing force is enough to give it it's high rank.

PKT/PKT2.... Almost nothing beats it. Great control. Can be canceled with other people unlike lucas'. Speedy. Tailwhipping to hit with head is easy. Mindgames are almost always given. PKT can kill off top REALLY early if your opponent is dumb. PKT2 kills really early regardless of where the opponent is. Can floorblast/whatever you call it. So you don't get punished as severely if your opponent expects your pkt2 toward them. Easily his best move.



EDIT: as you can tell, I just randomly thought this up. I want to change lots of these to fit my opinion, but I only really changed dtilt to an extreme amount. In fact, a couple of these don't agree with the majority at all. But who cares. It's rough.

 

[Dajayman]

People always overrate fair. Fair is actually my least favorite aerial.

 

[Eagleye893]

People always overrate fair. Fair is actually my least favorite aerial.

Ditto.... wait, I actually dislike dair more, but fair is a second to last.

 

[xoxokev]

pk flash needs to be up there with pkt imo

 

[-LzR-]

Why do you think PKfire is so good? It's laggy, it's slow and it does low damage that is all and you have a chance to get punished. It might be useful offstage thought.

 

[Eagleye893]

This is a general list for what most ness mains think. I'd switch pkfire and dtilt.

 

[Dajayman]

Lagless PK Fire and pivot PK Fire makes it safer to use.

 

[Chuee]

There is no such thing as "lagless" PKF.
Theres grounded PKF and aerial PKF.
Neither are that great because you can avoid both on reaction.

 

[SKidd]

la la la...

hmm hmm hmm...

 

[Chuee]

Ohhhhh nooooooo
not that

 

[Dajayman]

The Mario's have returned. DX

Lagless PK Fire is canceling the land lag of an aerial PK Fire with either a jump or an airdodge.

 

[Eagleye893]

Lagless is a shorter way of saying it, but it's a way of ending it more quickly with an attack, airdodge, or jump.

 

[Chuee]

FH PKF still has lag >.>

 

[Dajayman]

You still have lag.

 

[Chuee]

You have so much lag I can punish with Warlock Punch OoS.

 

[Uffe]

L...A...G Surfin' (The Laggers Anthem)

 

[Pokemon Trainer Red]

God, that never gets old. Thanks, SKidd.

 

[Eagleye893]

Anybody going to ask some questions? It always seems to be that one person asks a question, we answer, and go off on a tangent... Or a super tangent.

I've got a question for all you ness mains: what are your most used moves in terms of percentage? Approximation pls, and make the percentages add up to 100%. Make grab a category by itself then separate into throws and different types of grabs (standing, dash, pivot, u/b/f/dthrow). If it makes a difference, put the method you use an attack with mostly, but only if it is different from the norm.

 

[Silhouette]

Sup guys
Question, you guys wanna watch some stream??

School is in Session, Cincinnati OH 60+ entrants.

Live Stream

ps: sorry if I missed your social

 

[Rockmix]

Can you do a Uair then when you hit the ground do a Utilt?
sorry if it doesn't make sense.

 

[Eagleye893]

At low percents, yes. a common thing. That's what many ness mains should have down.

 

[Yink]

Yes, and agreed. ^

 

[Rockmix]

alright just wondering

 

[Eagleye893]

When you touch the ground just after hitting your opponent, you experience a small amount of lag and you can get off the utilt.

You can also use some other crazy things with other aerials. Sometimes I can chain a souspot bair to dsmash or usmash, mainly because my opponent is forced to land and they are in the air for a short time. Another thing that is almost never a combo is fair (near auto cancel, which is first few hits) to jab or dtilt, but it works sometimes. Often the person will shield, expecting a jab or followup, so I will take advantage of that and grab.

The uair>utilt is almost always a combo below 30% or so, but can be SDI'd. It is useful, but it is also good to expect your opponent to know of the things they can do to counter you, mess with their mind by baiting that, then punish heavily. For example, I'll sometimes use this insanity with dtilt that I've recently found out. Two hits and a followup immediately after is what I've got as the perfect usage for dtilt: it allows plenty of room and can often bait a response from your opponent and punish. It often leaves room for a grab followup. It often leads into a jab. Sometimes though, your opponent can have time to hit with a jab. In that case, if you are Often using the two hits and your opponent picks up on that, they will try to get something in before you get the chance to get more damage. If you read this, you can just dtilt flurry a lot until your opponent smartens up slightly. The dtilt flurry can also lead to a trip, so then you get a free 30+% for the dtilt flurry mindgames and a nair or grab followup. They'll try to attack early on then realize "oh sh- I need to stop this!" so they shield. As soon as they shield you can get a grab.

 

[Rockmix]

Oh wow thanks!
Any other stuff I should know?

 

[Eagleye893]

I don't remember what I was saying there.

A lot of people will say dtilt isn't as good as I say it is. They may be right, but it helps a ton.

get the spacing down for dash attack. It has great range, quick, and can set up for stuff fairly well.

Needs Moar PSImag.

If you haven't gotten PKT and PKT2 aiming down to instinctual usage, do that. If you don't you lose. You need to be able to recover after EVERY bad shot at you.

Get down the spacing for every move. Fair less so. Bair, uair, nair, dair, Usmash, Dsmash, Fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, PKfire (air and ground).... I should've just said all but fair, but you get my point right? Fair is good at getting distance, but it sucks at being efficient at racking damage from a distance.

PKjump is a great asset. Don't need B-stick, but you can if you want... I hate it.

Mindgames. Ness is great at the mindgames.

I don't have much else. But also, HAVE FUN!!! best thing.



OH yeah, and the most important thing of all is NEVER FORGET A SINGLE MOVE!!! ALL OF NESS' MOVES ARE USEFUL!!! EVEN PKFLASH!! (PKflash is just so much less useful than every other move)

 

[kennypu]

IMO pk flash is a great move uncharged. theres barely any landing lag/no lag if auto cancel.
as for recovery, go on FD, and be able to recover straight up. If you can do straight up at will, you pretty much can do every other angle. If you want to get crazy, master recoverying when you turn the pkt the opposite direction. say your opponent is in front of you off the ledge. if you pkt, and turn your pkthunder in front of you as usual, it'll hit them and die. you'll have to turn all the way the other way and hit yourself on the right spot to go where you want. hard stuff.

 

[Eagleye893]

agree with kenny. lrn pkt2 angles > almost anything.

Question: Does anyone else BUT me see potential in PKjump? Will anyone ever start using it again? Does anyone have super quick fingers like I do in order to do almost all variations without majorly altering controls (L as jump and go insane)?

Does anyone use PKjump other than me?


less doubtful of receiving answers:
How does everyone else use dash attack? dtilt? ftilt? bair?

^need to see. Give as much depth as you can with the last one, but less with dtilt and ftilt.

 

[-LzR-]

PKflash is horrible. The uncharged is very laggy and telegraphed and even if it hits it's not even strong when uncharged.

 

[Bartolon]

I shield with L Eagle, So I am using R to PK jump now yesz.
But idk If I am doing it right though xD