Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[Meta_Sonic64]

As we do to you MS... My goodness... it's just the thing that you think the counters from us are all wrong, therefore we "don't" have arguements. You keep saying we're wrong about this and that that it's starting to get annoying ;/

I'm not saying your counters are wrong, but I counter them with another counter that you can't seem to counter. And to be honest you really don't have arguments. You guys post stuff like "The replacement thing was 6 years ago" as if it can't happen today.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Both points seem to counter each other.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Both points seem to counter each other.

Its all just speculation, Sakurai will have the last say, not someone in this forum. Until he gets deconfirmed I believe he will still have a chance of returning.

for brawl!

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

But all things do point against his return.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

Exactly.

We are not saying we decide what happens in the game we are saying that Sakurai does, and Sakurai is pointing towards Ness being out.

 

[Cless]

Yeah, he's probably not going to be back. I really hope more than ever that Sat will resolve everything, but I'm just gonna be let down like usual.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Its all just speculation, Sakurai will have the last say, not someone in this forum. Until he gets deconfirmed I believe he will still have a chance of returning.

for brawl!

This is exactly what I mean. Not only does he disregard our points, but he also continues to post this whenever he can't come up with anything else. You call us annoying for "saying your wrong", but this isn't annoying? Please

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

Um.. he had that for EVERY post, it's almost a sig, it's not an arguement. The arguement part is the part above. You just focus on his NESS FOR BRAWL part and go against him like that.

And when you say we come up with stuff like "it happened 6 years ago," and say it's not a counter, you're basically saying that is ludacris, and it's basically wrong. We come up with points that aren't points to you because you believe that something different will happen. You come up with points that aren't points to us. It goes back and forth like this, and that's why there's no point to this...

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

DarkDeoxys... just let me say...

Huh?

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

Too many points? What I'm saying is that the arguements we have are completely different from your arguements, so it basically goes back and forth and nothing changes.

 

[vesperview]

Too many points? What I'm saying is that the arguements we have are completely different from your arguements, so it basically goes back and forth and nothing changes.

Maybe we go back and forth because you don't have any arguments and are only looking for lame excuses when you should just call it off? Yeah, that seems about right.

 

[thesage]

Too many points? What I'm saying is that the arguements we have are completely different from your arguements, so it basically goes back and forth and nothing changes.

QFT

Basically a summary of everyone's arguments and their counterpoints

Ness is one of the "original 12" he can't be taken out
Lucas is a clone of him

Ness is bottom tier, be thankful that they took him out and put in Lucas who is more likely going to be a better character
go play ssb64

Lucas plays exactly the same as Ness
Only 2 specials are the same, 2 specials are different, and all the "A" moves are different. What defines a character more?

Ness is cooler than Lucas
Lucas is cooler than Ness

I want Claus in brawl over Ness
They can both be in/ I like Ness better

the phrase "up until now" means he's out
depends on your definition of the phrase/ "up until now" was used in the standard a combos and handicap updates

Ness was meant to be replaced by Lucas in melee
this is brawl not melee

Seriously, it's up to you which side has the best beliefs

 

[RDK]

Kirby Kong, you're completely misinterpreting the phrase "up until now". Why would Sakurai even use that phrase if he wasn't hinting at Ness's disclusion? Again, the pro-Ness crowd's logical fallacies astound me.

UP UNTIL NOW = PREVIOUSLY, BUT NOT ANYMORE.

 

[vesperview]

Up until now at the beginning of the sentence = so far
Up until now at the end of the sentence = not included in this game

It's not that hard to see.

 

[thesage]

Up until now the sun was in the sky.
The sun was in the sky, up until now.

Up until now, Ness has been in smash
Ness has been in smash, up until now.

Languages can be very ambiguous sometimes: dirty old man (is the man dirty from dirt or dirty in the mind?)

 

[vesperview]

Up until now the sun was in the sky.
The sun was in the sky, up until now.

If you use WAS, you're basically saying the sun is not there anymore in both of them

 

[AdmantNESS]

Examples of Ima made- Until Now:


Ima made watashi wa ichi-nen-kan Nihon ni ite, Hachikoo de oshiete ima****a, taihen tanoshikatta desu.
- So far I've been in Japan, and teaching at Hachikoo [this school's nickname], for a year, and it's been very enjoyable.

Koremade watashi wa (ni)kagetsu Nihon ni ima****a, taihen tanoshikatta desu.
- So far I've been in Japan for (two) months and it's been very enjoyable. [Replace "ni" with the appropriate number of months. "Koremade" may also be replaced with "ima made".]


I still remember everything I've ever discovered up until now
(ima made mitsuketa mono wa zenbu oboeteru)

 

[DeuceBlade]

The up until mind thing will never die until Sakurai confirms or Deconfirms Ness... its kind of sad for people to jump to conclusions off of that when its used so loosely on the dojo... but hey.. can't expect everyone to be more open minded.

for brawl!

 

[RDK]

The up until mind thing will never die until Sakurai confirms or Deconfirms Ness... its kind of sad for people to jump to conclusions off of that when its used so loosely on the dojo... but hey.. can't expect everyone to be more open minded.

for brawl!

He's already deconfirmed Ness.






^ LOL, I'M DEUCEBLADE! I'M COOL!

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

The only tihng you seem to prove, RDK, is that you're immature.

vesperview, you obviously know what an opinion is, and you did a good job showcasing yours. I told you, call us idiots, we can call you idiots. Say we are wrong, we can say you're wrong. Say we have lame excuses, we can say you do too. Trust me, it's an ongoing cycle of opinions and that's all, that's what YOU fail to see.

 

[vesperview]

The only tihng you seem to prove, RDK, is that you're immature.

vesperview, you obviously know what an opinion is, and you did a good job showcasing yours. I told you, call us idiots, we can call you idiots. Say we are wrong, we can say you're wrong. Say we have lame excuses, we can say you do too. Trust me, it's an ongoing cycle of opinions and that's all, that's what YOU fail to see.

Oh please, you have proven your ignorance on the issue since the moment you came here, don't tell me that all of the sudden you have a good point for being here, cause it's blatantly obvious that you don't, I mean, you though Ness was Ninten for crying out loud! That's as if I went to advocate in favor of Marth to his thread when I know absolutely nothing of the Fire Emblem series, in fewer words, completely pointless.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Examples of Ima made- Until Now:


Ima made watashi wa ichi-nen-kan Nihon ni ite, Hachikoo de oshiete ima****a, taihen tanoshikatta desu.
- So far I've been in Japan, and teaching at Hachikoo [this school's nickname], for a year, and it's been very enjoyable.

Koremade watashi wa (ni)kagetsu Nihon ni ima****a, taihen tanoshikatta desu.
- So far I've been in Japan for (two) months and it's been very enjoyable. [Replace "ni" with the appropriate number of months. "Koremade" may also be replaced with "ima made".]



I still remember everything I've ever discovered up until now
(ima made mitsuketa mono wa zenbu oboeteru)

...You can use up until now instead of so far in these sentences.

Besides, let's replace So far with Up until now:

There's a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series so far, and Lucas is very similar.

Still sounds very conclusive.

HOWEVER: I barely care about that **** up until now. There are many other things that point to Ness's removal, and I've been fearing his exclusion since even before Lucas was revealed. I'm not jumping to conclusions here, he does have a very, very, very small chance.

 

[finalark]

The up until mind thing will never die until Sakurai confirms or Deconfirms Ness... its kind of sad for people to jump to conclusions off of that when its used so loosely on the dojo... but hey.. can't expect everyone to be more open minded.

for brawl!

Sakurai did say Ness is out.

Open minded? I'm open minded, just not a foolish fanboy who can't see the truth for what it is and must constantly keep believing his insane fantasy. That gets you nowhere. Last time I let fanboyism get in the way it made me waste fifty bucks on a poor game.

Ah well, on the 15th this will just become a "I told you so" topic anyway.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Sakurai did say Ness is out.

Open minded? I'm open minded, just not a foolish fanboy who can't see the truth for what it is and must constantly keep believing his insane fantasy. That gets you nowhere. Last time I let fanboyism get in the way it made me waste fifty bucks on a poor game.

Ah well, on the 15th this will just become a "I told you so" topic anyway.

What will you say "I told you, you should not have hoped for ness in brawl!!!11one11"

because all we do is hope he is in brawl.. we aren't saying he is.. So even if you are correct it still doesn't mean we were wrong to have hope for him.

but if we were right... we could say "I told you you should have not jumped to conclusions" how cool would that be.

for brawl!

 

[finalark]

But I'm not jumping to conclusions... where did you get you get that idea?

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

But I'm not jumping to conclusions... where did you get you get that idea?

Yeah, it's only jumping to conclusions if people you don't agree with do it. If you or other people that you agree with do it, it's irrevocable truth because you are always right, now deal with it you bunch of scrubs in denial of the obvious.

(the preceding post should not be taken seriously in any manner. if anyone takes offense to the contents of this post, please file a written complaint with the nearest brick wall.)

 

[The Kirby Kong]

While Ness supporters say he has a chance to be in.
Ness bashers say it's a fact that he's out.

Last time I checked, facts and chances aren't the same thing. So they're not using the same arguments. Thus it's possible that one side is jumping to conclusions while the other is not...

Now then, let's repeat it once more.
UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW AN EXACT QUOTE FROM SAKURAI, SAYING "NESS = OUT" THEN YOU HAVE NO 'FACT' REGARDING HIS REMOVAL FROM BRAWL.

And as stated before, the "up until now" statement has nothing to say about Ness' position in Brawl, since well... it's a fact that "up until now" only refers to a prior event. (yes, look it up in a dictionary, "up until now" or "to date" only refers to a prior event. Whatever happens after that certain event is irrelevant. Things might change, or they might not).

Stupid example for people that don't get it yet:

"The sun has always been hot up until now" is a statement only referring to what happened before a certain point.

It doesn't automatically mean that the sun is cold after that point. Yes, it could be cold after that point, but that's an assumption you take from the statement, and nowhere does it actually imply that. If you don't believe me, look it up in a dictionary or ask an english teacher or something.

Now then, let's get our facts straight.

Fact: "up until now" does only refer to a prior event.
Fact: If above is true, it means Sakurai never said Ness is out.

But hey, I'm trying to look at this from two sides, so I'm gonna include the facts against Ness as well.

Fact: "Lucas was supposed to replace Ness in Melee"
Fact: "Some of Lucas' moves are similar to Ness'"

To which I say:

Fact: "Lucas and Ness' similar B-moves are just that, similar, not exact copies"
Fact: "B-moves are only about 20% of a moveset"
Fact: "Lucas' A-moves are completely different from Ness'"
Fact: "If above is true, Lucas and Ness are different enough to not be clones"

And once again, a few against:

Fact: "Movesets are prone to change in fighting games"
Fact: "If above is true, it means slight changes to B-moves still makes them count as the same"

That's the only facts I can come up with regarding this issue.

What does this mean? There are decent arguments for both sides.
People have shown good examples as to why they think Ness will get cut, as well as others have shown good examples as to why Ness will return.
But neither side has any facts regarding his current position.

After having looked at all that, I can draw the following conclusion:

- People that know for a fact that Ness is out are wrong.
- People that know for a fact that Ness is in are wrong.

- People that say Ness has a chance to be out are right.
- People that say Ness has a chance to be in are right.

If this thread was a discussion between the lower two, we wouldn't see so much flaming and could actually have a decent conversation as to what will happen to Ness.

But I'm afraid this is not the case, most Ness bashers tend to think they have facts, and thus belong to the upper faction.

And a discussion between people who see chances, and people who assume facts is a very silly one, and is doomed to become a flame war.

You guys may continue this nonsense if you wish, but if you face the truth you know it's pointless. That's also the reason why I'm not gonna reply any further, I think this last post summed everything up.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Thank you, TKK, you win at life.

 

[Corax The Cold]

it seems so Non-Nintendo for them to take out a character, but i guess you could argue that Ness wasnt that well known, i do know some earthbound fans that'll be dissapointed, but still excited for Lucas anyways

 

[DeuceBlade]

While Ness supporters say he has a chance to be in.
Ness bashers say it's a fact that he's out.

Last time I checked, facts and chances aren't the same thing. So they're not using the same arguments. Thus it's possible that one side is jumping to conclusions while the other is not...

Now then, let's repeat it once more.
UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW AN EXACT QUOTE FROM SAKURAI, SAYING "NESS = OUT" THEN YOU HAVE NO 'FACT' REGARDING HIS REMOVAL FROM BRAWL.

And as stated before, the "up until now" statement has nothing to say about Ness' position in Brawl, since well... it's a fact that "up until now" only refers to a prior event. (yes, look it up in a dictionary, "up until now" or "to date" only refers to a prior event. Whatever happens after that certain event is irrelevant. Things might change, or they might not).

Stupid example for people that don't get it yet:

"The sun has always been hot up until now" is a statement only referring to what happened before a certain point.

It doesn't automatically mean that the sun is cold after that point. Yes, it could be cold after that point, but that's an assumption you take from the statement, and nowhere does it actually imply that. If you don't believe me, look it up in a dictionary or ask an english teacher or something.

Now then, let's get our facts straight.

Fact: "up until now" does only refer to a prior event.
Fact: If above is true, it means Sakurai never said Ness is out.

But hey, I'm trying to look at this from two sides, so I'm gonna include the facts against Ness as well.

Fact: "Lucas was supposed to replace Ness in Melee"
Fact: "Some of Lucas' moves are similar to Ness'"

To which I say:

Fact: "Lucas and Ness' similar B-moves are just that, similar, not exact copies"
Fact: "B-moves are only about 20% of a moveset"
Fact: "Lucas' A-moves are completely different from Ness'"
Fact: "If above is true, Lucas and Ness are different enough to not be clones"

And once again, a few against:

Fact: "Movesets are prone to change in fighting games"
Fact: "If above is true, it means slight changes to B-moves still makes them count as the same"

That's the only facts I can come up with regarding this issue.

What does this mean? There are decent arguments for both sides.
People have shown good examples as to why they think Ness will get cut, as well as others have shown good examples as to why Ness will return.
But neither side has any facts regarding his current position.

After having looked at all that, I can draw the following conclusion:

- People that know for a fact that Ness is out are wrong.
- People that know for a fact that Ness is in are wrong.

- People that say Ness has a chance to be out are right.
- People that say Ness has a chance to be in are right.

If this thread was a discussion between the lower two, we wouldn't see so much flaming and could actually have a decent conversation as to what will happen to Ness.

But I'm afraid this is not the case, most Ness bashers tend to think they have facts, and thus belong to the upper faction.

And a discussion between people who see chances, and people who assume facts is a very silly one, and is doomed to become a flame war.

You guys may continue this nonsense if you wish, but if you face the truth you know it's pointless. That's also the reason why I'm not gonna reply any further, I think this last post summed everything up.

Theres so much logic in this, it saddens me that some will just try to find flaws with it and completely disclaim it since they can not comprehend what it means.

I agree with everything stated.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

Theres so much logic in this, it saddens me that some will just try to find flaws with it and completely disclaim it since they can not comprehend what it means.

I agree with everything stated.

The irony... it hurts.

Seriously I have totally disproven all the points that Deuceblade came up with... and then all of Deoxy's "Counter" points and what do I get? "Its all speculation" seriously Deuceblade people dont bash you for hoping for Ness's inclusion but your blind stupidity.

 

[AuraLancer]

Why does this thread live still? Everyone just assume he's gone and then maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised in the end.

It hurts to see people dragging the corpse of one of my favorite game characters of all time through the mud.

So what if I have some slight hope he's still there? I don't need to be taunted about it.

Ness for Brawl. If he's not in, oh well.

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

The irony... it hurts.

Seriously I have totally disproven all the points that Deuceblade came up with... and then all of Deoxy's "Counter" points and what do I get? "Its all speculation" seriously Deuceblade people dont bash you for hoping for Ness's inclusion but your blind stupidity.

And his "stupidity" seems to come from the fact that he is hoping for Ness's inclusion in Brawl, so essentially, yes, people ARE bashing him for hoping for Ness's inclusion.

 

[vesperview]

seriously Deuceblade people dont bash you for hoping for Ness's inclusion but your blind stupidity.

QFT!

Spoiler

10char

 

[OmegaXXII]

While Ness supporters say he has a chance to be in.
Ness bashers say it's a fact that he's out.

Last time I checked, facts and chances aren't the same thing. So they're not using the same arguments. Thus it's possible that one side is jumping to conclusions while the other is not...

Now then, let's repeat it once more.
UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW AN EXACT QUOTE FROM SAKURAI, SAYING "NESS = OUT" THEN YOU HAVE NO 'FACT' REGARDING HIS REMOVAL FROM BRAWL.

And as stated before, the "up until now" statement has nothing to say about Ness' position in Brawl, since well... it's a fact that "up until now" only refers to a prior event. (yes, look it up in a dictionary, "up until now" or "to date" only refers to a prior event. Whatever happens after that certain event is irrelevant. Things might change, or they might not).

Stupid example for people that don't get it yet:

"The sun has always been hot up until now" is a statement only referring to what happened before a certain point.

It doesn't automatically mean that the sun is cold after that point. Yes, it could be cold after that point, but that's an assumption you take from the statement, and nowhere does it actually imply that. If you don't believe me, look it up in a dictionary or ask an english teacher or something.

Now then, let's get our facts straight.

Fact: "up until now" does only refer to a prior event.
Fact: If above is true, it means Sakurai never said Ness is out.

But hey, I'm trying to look at this from two sides, so I'm gonna include the facts against Ness as well.

Fact: "Lucas was supposed to replace Ness in Melee"
Fact: "Some of Lucas' moves are similar to Ness'"

To which I say:

Fact: "Lucas and Ness' similar B-moves are just that, similar, not exact copies"
Fact: "B-moves are only about 20% of a moveset"
Fact: "Lucas' A-moves are completely different from Ness'"
Fact: "If above is true, Lucas and Ness are different enough to not be clones"

And once again, a few against:

Fact: "Movesets are prone to change in fighting games"
Fact: "If above is true, it means slight changes to B-moves still makes them count as the same"

That's the only facts I can come up with regarding this issue.

What does this mean? There are decent arguments for both sides.
People have shown good examples as to why they think Ness will get cut, as well as others have shown good examples as to why Ness will return.
But neither side has any facts regarding his current position.

After having looked at all that, I can draw the following conclusion:

- People that know for a fact that Ness is out are wrong.
- People that know for a fact that Ness is in are wrong.

- People that say Ness has a chance to be out are right.
- People that say Ness has a chance to be in are right.

If this thread was a discussion between the lower two, we wouldn't see so much flaming and could actually have a decent conversation as to what will happen to Ness.

But I'm afraid this is not the case, most Ness bashers tend to think they have facts, and thus belong to the upper faction.

And a discussion between people who see chances, and people who assume facts is a very silly one, and is doomed to become a flame war.

You guys may continue this nonsense if you wish, but if you face the truth you know it's pointless. That's also the reason why I'm not gonna reply any further, I think this last post summed everything up.

GOD! I love you so much!! you much logic

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

And his "stupidity" seems to come from the fact that he is hoping for Ness's inclusion in Brawl, so essentially, yes, people ARE bashing him for hoping for Ness's inclusion.

I take it you haven't read any of his previous posts then?

 

[DeuceBlade]

I take it you haven't read any of his previous posts then?

Now hold on, You claim that you counter everyone's post but that really is just your opinion, just because you think your "facts" can counter My and other peoples speculation does not mean they actually do.

This is what you do

Ness supporter: I think ness has a chance in brawl because him and lucas have different a moves, and only a bit similar b moves.

You: Oh noez Lucas and Ness r true clones and tooo similar I completely countered your point so I won deh argument.

Ness supporter: You can't counter facts with opinions..

You: they r not opinionz? they r deh true facts.

Please before you put yourself on a pedestal, realize that just because you think you are countering our points does not mean you actually are.

btw, if you are so sure that you are correct, why must you add insults to your post? it doesn't help you, it just makes you come off immature.

for brawl!

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

I take it you haven't read any of his previous posts then?

I have; nothing really stood out to me as making him head-bashingly stupid. But hey, maybe I have different standards than you.

for brawl!

...okay, I see your point, but I still don't consider him to be stupid, just maybe a bit annoying.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

Now hold on, You claim that you counter everyone's post but that really is just your opinion, just because you think your "facts" can counter My and other peoples speculation does not mean they actually do.

This is what you do

Ness supporter: I think ness has a chance in brawl because him and lucas have different a moves, and only a bit similar b moves.

You: Oh noez Lucas and Ness r true clones and tooo similar I completely countered your point so I won deh argument.

Ness supporter: You can't counter facts with opinions..

You: they r not opinionz? they r deh true facts.

Please before you put yourself on a pedestal, realize that just because you think you are countering our points does not mean you actually are.

btw, if you are so sure that you are correct, why must you add insults to your post? it doesn't help you, it just makes you come off immature.

for brawl!

I only insult people if they are acting like *****. But seriously I have countered all of your posts and then you reply with "Lolz its just speculation", and funny because I respected your opinio0n before you started doing stupid **** like this with (Yet again) no evidence to back it up.

And funny how your being hypocritical again, because that entire post was an insult towards me. So seriously and this is from the bottom of all our hearts:

SHUT THE **** UP.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I only insult people if they are acting like *****. But seriously I have countered all of your posts and then you reply with "Lolz its just speculation", and funny because I respected your opinio0n before you started doing stupid **** like this with (Yet again) no evidence to back it up.

And funny how your being hypocritical again, because that entire post was an insult towards me. So seriously and this is from the bottom of all our hearts:

SHUT THE **** UP.

Where did I insult you?

How am I being hypocritical?

this is just you once again trying to turn your opinion into a fact, and all things about Ness can only come from speculation since we do not know the final roster, or what could/will happen in brawl concerning him. So to say "speculation" can't be used, is being ignorant.