Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[Meta_Sonic64]

Seriously folks, can't you read people's arguments. He has made it quite clear that he isn't arguing Ness is deconfirmed (aka "has no chance"), he's merely arguing that Ness will not being in the final game. A perfectly legitimate opinion to have, and he's defending it reasonably well.

He's not a troll, he just has an opinion, and he's arguing it, and you folks calling him a troll is just a cheap tech to defeat his argument without using reason to oppose it.




There's something called being civil, learn to be it.

Anyway, he's not arguing Ness is deconfirmed, he's clarified his argument, he just thinks that Ness isn't gonna make it, which is different then saying that he has no chance.




I like Ness personally, however it seems to me like his prospects are grim, and the possibility that the English site jumped the gun doesn't help. He doesn't seem like he'll make it, but he isn't deconfirmed.

I commend you for being the most logical supporter I've seen in this thread.

 

[RedMage8BT]

What a coincidence that he's on your side!

Only teasing.

 

[RDK]

Seriously folks, can't you read people's arguments. He has made it quite clear that he isn't arguing Ness is deconfirmed (aka "has no chance"), he's merely arguing that Ness will not being in the final game. A perfectly legitimate opinion to have, and he's defending it reasonably well.

He's not a troll, he just has an opinion, and he's arguing it, and you folks calling him a troll is just a cheap tech to defeat his argument without using reason to oppose it.

I really wouldn't even acknowledge DeuceBlade at this point. All of his arguments consist of stupid > < smilies, and saying Sakurai's words have several interpretations. He's not even worth your time.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I really wouldn't even acknowledge DeuceBlade at this point. All of his arguments consist of stupid > < smilies, and saying Sakurai's words have several interpretations. He's not even worth your time.

Or most of his posts consist of calling people trolls for their arguments as well. He never seems to present a reasonable argument of his own, but instead post the smilies with one sentence as well as Ness for Brawl. The other Ness supporters seem to have a lot more sense and post something constructive.

 

[RedMage8BT]

But Sakurai's words CAN possibly have more than one possible interpretation. It is translated from Japanese, after all.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

But Sakurai's words CAN possibly have more than one possible interpretation. It is translated from Japanese, after all.

Yes, but said basically the same thing in all translated updates. I know they can but as I've already stated, that factor alone doesn't deconfirm him, but I still feel he won't be in the game.

 

[NukeA6]

Um, there are some people who can not be convinced that Ness still has a chance, these people refuse to think beyond "up until now", and jump to conclusions.. If Sakurai's quotes can not convince them that Ness still has a chance I don't think any of us can... Well atleast not the ones that are trolls.

I can look beyond 'Up until now'.

There's also the fact that Lucas has PK Thunder, PK Fire, and PSI Magnet. ALso, his PK Freeze does exactly what PK Flash does (with added freeze effect). There's also a time when Sakurai mentioned that he planned to replace Ness with Lucas. It didn't happen because Mother 3 was delayed.

FTL

 

[DeuceBlade]

I can look beyond 'Up until now'.

There's also the fact that Lucas has PK Thunder, PK Fire, and PSI Magnet. ALso, his PK Freeze does exactly what PK Flash does (with added freeze effect). There's also a time when Sakurai mentioned that he planned to replace Ness with Lucas. It didn't happen because Mother 3 was delayed.

FTL

If you are not a troll than my statement was not about you..

Some people do not infact Look beyond up until now, and believe hes out solely by that statement , But thats fine if you do not look beyond that statement as long as you don't jump to the conclusion that hes already out.

As I have said before Sakurai has not truly deconfirmed him so his chances are still there, If you believe he might be out then thats fine, but for the people who think hes out they are jumping to conclusions, and debating something with biased opinions and sometimes insults

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

If you are not a troll than my statement was not about you..

Some people do not infact Look beyond up until now, and believe hes out solely by that statement , But thats fine if you do not look beyond that statement as long as you don't jump to the conclusion that hes already out.

As I have said before Sakurai has not truly deconfirmed him so his chances are still there, If you believe he might be out then thats fine, but for the people who think hes out they are jumping to conclusions, and debating something with biased opinions and sometimes insults

Biased opinions? Most of the things from my argument that you called "opinions" were facts that I had to actually point out to you. You probably call them "opinions" b/c it only shows how they lower Ness's chances. As for insults, your practically asking for them with the things you post. If you don't want people to insult you, then post things that are logical like some of the other supporters.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Biased opinions? Most of the things from my argument that you called "opinions" were facts that I had to actually point out to you. You probably call them "opinions" b/c it only shows how they lower Ness's chances. As for insults, your practically asking for them with the things you post. If you don't want people to insult you, then post things that are logical like some of the other supporters.

When you did state your "facts" they were countered... and then you went on and said "No one is bringing good points up because I am countering all of them" - this is when you started to go into opinion.. mode.. and began to self proclaim your ability to counter all Ness support logic..
but you didn't, you just gave your opinion and try to make it appear as fact.

Its sad that you think people are worthy of insults just because they are supporting their character, and I have used logic in support of Ness, it is just blown off due to narrow minds.

 

[Kirby knight]

If you are not a troll than my statement was not about you..

Some people do not infact Look beyond up until now, and believe hes out solely by that statement , But thats fine if you do not look beyond that statement as long as you don't jump to the conclusion that hes already out.

As I have said before Sakurai has not truly deconfirmed him so his chances are still there, If you believe he might be out then thats fine, but for the people who think hes out they are jumping to conclusions, and debating something with biased opinions and sometimes insults

Wouldn't someone who is proficient in Japanese or having it be their native language be able to tell you what Sakurai's statement truly meant?

That is of course if they can understand their own language....

-Knight

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

When you did state your "facts" they were countered... and then you went on and said "No one is bringing good points up because I am countering all of them" - this is when you started to go into opinion.. mode.. and began to self proclaim your ability to counter all Ness support logic..
but you didn't, you just gave your opinion and try to make it appear as fact.

Its sad that you think people are worthy of insults just because they are supporting their character, and I have used logic in support of Ness, it is just blown off due to narrow minds.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't like the facts when they're against you. As soon as you countered, I did counter back and since you want to talk about opinions, let's talk about how your counters weren't actually factual, but opinionated. Like the replacement argument, you used your opinion and stated things like "Sakurai wouldn't want to do that now" and that's all you came up with. You called that a counter and if I didn't counter back some other user did, so that's out of the picture. It isn't really self-proclaim, for all your arguments were countered. It's sad how you fail to realize that what you post, brings you insults. You are mainly the center of all insults, unlike the other supporters b/c they post something constructive. I have yet to see a good argument out of you and when you learn to actually post with sense, you won't be insulted as much as you are.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Wouldn't someone who is proficient in Japanese or having it be their native language be able to tell you what Sakurai's statement truly meant?

That is of course if they can understand their own language....

-Knight

Time shall tell what really has happened to Ness, all I can do is speculate and support, I'm not jumping to any conclusions.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't like the facts when they're against you. As soon as you countered, I did counter back and since you want to talk about opinions, let's talk about how your counters weren't actually factual, but opinionated. Like the replacement argument, you used your opinion and stated things like "Sakurai wouldn't want to do that now" and that's all you came up with. You called that a counter and if I didn't counter back some other user did, so that's out of the picture. It isn't really self-proclaim, for all your arguments were countered. It's sad how you fail to realize that what you post, brings you insults. You are mainly the center of all insults, unlike the other supporters b/c they post something constructive. I have yet to see a good argument out of you and when you learn to actually post with sense, you won't be insulted as much as you are.

Yes.. because you can counter all facts right? and for the replacement issue I said Sakurai wanted to replace Ness in melee 6 Years ago with Lucas.. Lucas is already in and while Ness could be replaced.. he could also just return to being hidden. (speculation :o)

and I don't really care if people insult me... I will just ignore them if it becomes excessive and immature like, that RDK guy.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

Astro quick response for your three "Up until now" examples:

The first: It says up until now you had to tap the button for the combo, now you don't you just hold it. You see? He was talking about the way it was performed not the thing itself.

The second: That sentence would mean that handicaps were likely out of the game, but as the case is it was followed by another sentence which confirmed handicaps in the game.

The Ness one: He uses "Up until now" in reference to Ness being in the game and he doesn't say anything else to in some way confirm Ness.

*This was written two hours ago*

 

[RedMage8BT]

The first: It says up until now you had to tap the button for the combo, now you don't you just hold it. You see? He was talking about the way it was performed not the thing itself.

The second: That sentence would mean that handicaps were likely out of the game, but as the case is it was followed by another sentence which confirmed handicaps in the game.

1. He said "this won't change in Brawl" meaning you can still do it that way, and he's just adding to it.

2. An update about Handicaps wouldn't not confirm handicaps, no matter how many technicalities you push. The update was obviously going to confirm handicaps, no amount of "up until now" could change that.

 

[Kirby knight]

Time shall tell what really has happened to Ness, all I can do is speculate and support, I'm not jumping to any conclusions.

It's nice to have faith..to hope for something, but the evidence against Ness's return is great, you cannot deny that.

-Knight

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Yes.. because you can counter all facts right? and for the replacement issue I said Sakurai wanted to replace Ness in melee 6 Years ago with Lucas.. Lucas is already in and while Ness could be replaced.. he could also just return to being hidden. (speculation :o)

and I don't really care if people insult me... I will just ignore them if it becomes excessive and immature like, that RDK guy.

Maybe I haven't countered them all, considering others beat me to the post, but I'm pretty sure I can counter anything you've come up with. As for facts, I'll use your logic and call them opinions. As for your counter, it's an opinion, not a fact of which you seem to call "opinions". Good that you don't care about insults, but just as you ignore them, people will ignore your posts until they become mature and not such an excessive annoyance.

 

[RedMage8BT]

I'm not saying Ness's chances aren't slim, but basing that off of one three-word phrase is absolutely ridiculous, especially when the phrase has been defined in a way that contradicts your "logic".

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I'm not saying Ness doesn't have a slim chance of returning, but basing that off of one three-word phrase is absolutely ridiculous.

As I said before, I'm not and your post before somewhat helped MRKM prove his point. I've stated many reasons as well as others of why I think he won't be there, but people can't except some of the FACTS I give and instead call them "opinions"

It's nice to have faith..to hope for something, but the evidence against Ness's return is great, you cannot deny that.

-Knight

Well he continuously denies it b/c of his faith and nothing else.

 

[RedMage8BT]

I didn't say you were, I just said that some people are. In fact, I agree with you on most of what you say, but it's mostly a pointless argument, as we can't really know for sure until we have the game or he tells us for sure.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I didn't say you were, I just said that some people are. In fact, I agree with you on most of what you say, but it's mostly a pointless argument, as we can't really know for sure until we have the game or he tells us for sure.

Well, to be honest, I doubt Sakurai will ever come out and just say someone's deconfirmed, which is why people looked at the "Up Until Now" as a message(like ATs,etc.). The other updates that had those words, but confirmed whatever it was referring to the next sentence or pararagraph. I agree that we have to wait till the game is out or a character leak, but it's quite obvious the things aren't in Ness's favor and that's what people like DB don't understand.

 

[finalark]

I agree with Meta Sonic64.

 

[error_alt_delete]

Well, to be honest, I thought Sakurai will ever come out and just say someone's deconfirmed, which is why people looked at the "Up Until Now" as a message(like ATs,etc.). The other updates that had those words, confirmed whatever it was referring to the next sentence or pararagraph. I argee that we have to wait till the game is out or a character leak, but it's quite obvious the things aren't in Ness's favor and that's what people like DB don't understand.

HOO-RAH! YES

Spoiler

10charizards

 

[OysterMeister]

Well, to be honest, I thought Sakurai will ever come out and just say someone's deconfirmed, which is why people looked at the "Up Until Now" as a message(like ATs,etc.).

Sakurai didn't seem to have any problems with Waluigi today. He mentions how he isn't playable in the first sentence of the update.

Still, I agree that I wouldn't expect Sakurai to come out and say that anyone is deconfirmed; that just wouldn't make sense. But it seems to me that subtle hinting at deconfirmation is just as suspect. It seems to me that deconfirming ANYTHING would be a bad move, and being sneaky and underhanded about it doesn't suddenly make it okay.

Which is why I find it odd that Sakurai mentions Ness at all. To my knowledge, there are only two characters who have been mentioned repeatedly on the Dojo but not revealed in the game: Ness and Ridley.

I suppose my point with all of this is that while I can't see Sakurai directly deconfirming a character, I also can't see him leaving subtle clues that deconfirm a character either.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Sakurai didn't seem to have any problems with Waluigi today. He mentions how he isn't playable in the first sentence of the update.

Still, I agree that I wouldn't expect Sakurai to come out and say that anyone is deconfirmed; that just wouldn't make sense. But it seems to me that subtle hinting at deconfirmation is just as suspect. It seems to me that deconfirming ANYTHING would be a bad move, and being sneaky and underhanded about it doesn't suddenly make it okay.

Which is why I find it odd that Sakurai mentions Ness at all. To my knowledge, there are only two characters who have been mentioned repeatedly on the Dojo but not revealed in the game: Ness and Ridley.

I suppose my point with all of this is that while I can't see Sakurai directly deconfirming a character, I also can't see him leaving subtle clues that deconfirm a character either.

Well then I guess you don't understand the concept of subtle messages.

 

[Cosine]

Sakurai didn't seem to have any problems with Waluigi today. He mentions how he isn't playable in the first sentence of the update.

Which is why I find it odd that Sakurai mentions Ness at all. To my knowledge, there are only two characters who have been mentioned repeatedly on the Dojo but not revealed in the game: Ness and Ridley.

Im sorry if I missed something, but when was Ridley mentioned?

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

With the Samus stage and music.

 

[Blu-ninja]

what are you talking about?

ness is in local calling card shop near you!

......

 

[Cosine]

With the Samus stage and music.

Well I knew that, but its not really mentioning like he mentioned Ness, because those were titles of something esle you could say the same about Ashley, K.K. Rider, and maby even X.

Even though Ridley is far more likly

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Omg Hatless Ness Comfirmedz!!

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Omg Hatless Ness Comfirmedz!!

With a blonde Jimmy Neutron hairdo

 

[Blu-ninja]

Omg Hatless Ness Comfirmedz!!

where dojo fails,

copyright excels!

 

[OysterMeister]

Well then I guess you don't understand the concept of subtle messages.

I'm not sure I understand your point?
You're saying that you don't think Sakurai would outright deconfirm a character because announcing what ISN'T in Brawl is bad press, right?
Well, I'm saying that subtly deconfirming something is still bad press. Deconfirming a veteran character is bad news; it doesn't miraculously become good news just because you tell it differently or less directly. I don't think being sneaky with your bad news softens the blow or makes it any less disappointing, so why bother being sneaky at all?

Im sorry if I missed something, but when was Ridley mentioned?

Sakurai mention the Metroid music as being traditionaly played during a Ridley boss fight, and Norfair as being where Ridley is traditionaly found. In each case he talked about Ridley as a character, not just as a part of the title.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you are not a troll than my statement was not about you..

Some people do not infact Look beyond up until now, and believe hes out solely by that statement , But thats fine if you do not look beyond that statement as long as you don't jump to the conclusion that hes already out.

As I have said before Sakurai has not truly deconfirmed him so his chances are still there, If you believe he might be out then thats fine, but for the people who think hes out they are jumping to conclusions, and debating something with biased opinions and sometimes insults

Look, I think we have a misunderstanding in terminology here, irregardless of whether Ness is going to actually appear in the game, it has already been decided and this decision has been observed and it's effects on other things have been observed.

The fact that we do not know what this decision is does not change the fact that it has been decided, thus Ness has only one of two possible statuses, "in" or "out", so in this case since it has been observed, the state is quantiumly locked, so we can fall to the classic definition of probability, "the ratio of the number of cases favorable to it, to the number of all cases possible when nothing leads us to expect that any one of these cases should occur more than any other, which renders them, for us, equally possible" (though we must note that the cases must be broken down into elementary enough forms to be utilized, thus we do not have to "expect" equal possibility, we know it). We can do that since the role of the observer has already been factored.


Thus, Ness is not possibly going to appear in Smash, there is a possibility that he is appearing and a possibility he isn't, because in this case probability is functioning to account for the sum of events that we do not know instead of deciding the results of an event yet to occur or an event that isn't quatiumly locked yet.

[/wall of text describing complicated math and physics concepts that nobody cares about]


Long story short, no, saying he's out is not in this case, the same as saying he's deconfirmed. It's saying that the odds favor him not being in the game.

I commend you for being the most logical supporter I've seen in this thread.

Thanks, I try to be.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Look, I think we have a misunderstanding in terminology here, irregardless of whether Ness is going to actually appear in the game, it has already been decided and this decision has been observed and it's effects on other things have been observed.

The fact that we do not know what this decision is does not change the fact that it has been decided, thus Ness has only one of two possible statuses, "in" or "out", so in this case since it has been observed, the state is quantiumly locked, so we can fall to the classic definition of probability, "the ratio of the number of cases favorable to it, to the number of all cases possible when nothing leads us to expect that any one of these cases should occur more than any other, which renders them, for us, equally possible" (though we must note that the cases must be broken down into elementary enough forms to be utilized, thus we do not have to "expect" equal possibility, we know it). We can do that since the role of the observer has already been factored.


Thus, Ness is not possibly going to appear in Smash, there is a possibility that he is appearing and a possibility he isn't, because in this case probability is functioning to account for the sum of events that we do not know instead of deciding the results of an event yet to occur or an event that isn't quatiumly locked yet.

[/wall of text describing complicated math and physics concepts that nobody cares about]


Long story short, no, saying he's out is not in this case, the same as saying he's deconfirmed. It's saying that the odds favor him not being in the game.






Thanks, I try to be.

If you did not try to sound so smart in your post it could have been more understandable and less contridicting..

You say that whether Ness will be in brawl or not has been noticed..then you say we don't know what the decision is but it has been decided, then you say he can be either in or out...then you go on to say its been decided and can't be changed...then you say his chances are equal for bad and good (50/50), then you say no one should expect it to be equal.. then you say it depends on which side you are on (support...against)... Then you say he might not get into brawl, then you say he might not appear or he could appear...then you say his appearance could change due to an unknown event...

Then you give a summary of something you didn't even talk about making it not a summary at all...

So basically... you said Ness could be in or out like 4 times... and that the decision is not known.. then you finished it by saying his chances are slim.

...Next time just say "Ness might not make it in brawl", although I believe he still has a chance.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you did not try to sound so smart in your post it could have been more understandable and less contridicting..

I conveniently posted my conclusion on the bottom which was confirmed by Meta_Sonic64, that he was never arguing that Ness was deconfirmed, merely unlikely. If you aren't familiar with probability my reasoning you didn't have to read it (it was a pre-emptive measure for people who know a lot on the topic, and all that related to the issue was summed up quite nicely).

Suffice it to say, there were no contradictions, however without a grasp of quantum mechanics and probability it seems that way.

You say that whether Ness will be in brawl or not has been noticed..then you say we don't know what the decision is but it has been decided, then you say he can be either in or out...then you go on to say its been decided and can't be changed...then you say his chances are equal for bad and good (50/50), then you say no one should expect it to be equal.. then you say it depends on which side you are on (support...against)... Then you say he might not get into brawl, then you say he might not appear or he could appear...then you say his appearance could change due to an unknown event...

Then you give a summary of something you didn't even talk about making it not a summary at all...

So basically... you said Ness could be in or out like 4 times... and that the decision is not known.. then you finished it by saying his chances are slim.

...Next time just say "Ness might not make it in brawl", although I believe he still has a chance.

Erm, no, you misread. I said nothing about equality, just two possible states (the classical definition of probability requires one break down most events into smaller events to the point where they have even probbility, the resulting event need not, for example, getting 3 heads from 3 coin tosses, each toss has 50% chance of getting heads, however the odds of getting the event you want is 12.5% because it's dependant upon a certain outcome from the previous events, and while the discrete events have even porbabilities, the final event only occurs in the way you want if all the prevous events occured in the certain manner, thus 12.5).


Now, understand my point, I am not disagreeing with either you or Meta_Sonic64, I am merely pointing out a misunderstanding between the two of you.

As I previously stated, the decision has already been made about Ness' appearance, however since we don't know what that decision is, we're not dealing with the probability of whether an event WILL occur, we're dealing with the probability that an event HAS occurred.




The event in question is the decision to place Ness in the game (or from the negative prospective, the decision not to). Did that decision occur? We don't know for sure because he has not been deconfirmed. The argument is therefore, "what is the probability that such an event occurred based on what we know". Meta_Sonic64, by saying that Ness is out, is saying that the odds are very low that the decision to put him in the game was made. This is very different from saying that Ness is deconfirmed (and though, these are often used to mean the same thing, he clarified what he meant by it).





So, you've won, congrats, but nobody was arguing with you. Almost nobody on the thread actually believes that Ness was deconfirmed. There are plenty of people who think that the odds that the decision was made to place him in Brawl are quite low, disagree with them if you believe them wrong, but do not act as if they are saying he is deconfirmed., because nobody is arguing that, at least not on this thread.

 

[Terrabottuti]

This is probably getting off topic now, but just in case somebody wants a higher quality version of the Boogleg Ness...

 

[AdmantNESS]

Nitpicking, but Ness wear blue and yellow, not red and white. But yeah, I hope Ness returns, or I'm going to have to change my account. Or delete and make a new one.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I'm not sure I understand your point?
You're saying that you don't think Sakurai would outright deconfirm a character because announcing what ISN'T in Brawl is bad press, right?
Well, I'm saying that subtly deconfirming something is still bad press. Deconfirming a veteran character is bad news; it doesn't miraculously become good news just because you tell it differently or less directly. I don't think being sneaky with your bad news softens the blow or makes it any less disappointing, so why bother being sneaky at all?




Sakurai mention the Metroid music as being traditionaly played during a Ridley boss fight, and Norfair as being where Ridley is traditionaly found. In each case he talked about Ridley as a character, not just as a part of the title.

Just b/c it isn't good doesn't mean he won't do it. He's practically stated in a journal entry that not all vets will be returning as well. Just b/c you feel that his subtle messages is a bad way of deconfirming doesn't mean that your opinion will stop him from doing it.

 

[SuperShrine]

Hello everybody! I´m new here so I´m nice to meet you.

I´m sorry if I bother someone by saying all that things in the Lucas forum, but I get confused, so please forgive me.

I was, just trying to support all Ness´ fans, so...here I go!

C´mon friends! Notjing is over just yet, so we are not sure if Ness is going to be replaced; There´s still hope!

I know that the posibilities are very low, but... who knows? Ness is very popular, more than Lucas, so, maybe, Sakurai is just trying to make us worry. It could be, that Ness would be a secret character, and that´s why the Dojo and Sakurai hasn´t have mentioned nothing about him.

Remember: As long as we can fly, we still have a chance

And, Atens is the place where democracy borns, so...let´s be happy!

We believe that the dreams can come true, right?...so we believe that Ness will be in Brawl, right?

Sakurai do things for his fans, and he can´t leave us like this, he can´t do this to the fans.

There´s still hope!

C´mon everybody, let´s express to Sakurai what we feel, and I´m sure that, if he notice, Ness and Lucas and Poo and...others will be there too

C´mon everybody, everythig is still UNTIL NOW