NCSU Smash Stacks - Round 9 @DUKE 10/30

[rPSIvysaur]

wow 702 that's some strong opinions you're putting out there.

 

[lord karn]

The way I look at it, is third should be getting a little more than their money back (unless there are like less than ten entrants). If redistributing the pot makes that not possible, then it shouldn't be redistributed. As it is, with $5 entries, we can't really pay out to fourth until we have like 25-30 entrants.

Now, we could raise entry fees. This has it's own distinct advantages. The most obvious is that we get more money in the pot so we can pay out a little further. The second, less obvious reason is that the people who enter are more motivated to play well. When you pay $10 to enter an event, you're not going to just want to waste your time. You're more likely to try harder and thus get better.

However, on the opposite side, having lower entry fees encourages more players to enter the tournament. When tournaments become too expensive, players travel to them less or travel and don't enter. We definitely don't want this.

So basically, we have to find the right equilibrium. I've always liked the idea of $7 dollar entry fees. This worked really well at the Billfests and Karnfests. I personally think we should rotate prices. Either rotate 5 and 7, or maybe 5/5/10. Something like that.


Edit: Also, mms do count in the power rankings. We consider a $5 mm pretty much the same as a tourney set. The only time they don't get counted is when no one on the panel knows.

 

[ZeldaRox!]

Rpsi is awesome!@

this made me smile

 

[Bl@ckChris]

dj, i'll mm u sometime soon. i'm not quite there yet.

pp, i know what the tourney experience is for, and i know where my money is going. i stand by my pride, but very few other people seem to have any pride in their own abilities, because we're busy saying we suck.

people with pride of their skill:
dj
cam
yay
fiz?
josh?

idk. but i've been sorta proud from the start. but i've also always been a realist. maybe thats holding me back. personally, i doubt it is. but i know where i stand right now, and i know my next level of people i want to beat in tourney. but those people aren't generally interested in mm's, so i have to rely on the luck of the bracket to pit me against them.

my goal is to find my limit. mentally. i'm not there yet. so i'm still playing.

edit: if we raise entry fee's, then we need to space these tournies more, and really decide which ones "matter" on the in between things we have. since this scene has become more of a family, we seem to want to get together every weekend. which is great...i guess. but we can't travel every weekend thinking that every tourney will have PR implications when in a month, we have 3-4 different tourneys, each getting about 20 people, when in theory, we couldve had one event with 30-40 people, that decidedly matters, with a 10 dollar entry. i try to go to every tourney there is for the whole experience thing, but this in itself is why i initally had GIG to be a smashfest: because every dang week there's another tourney, so nothing can get big.

 

[Dr Peepee]

kevin is just saying this because he wants to continue to beat our ***** in, take our money, and then tell us we did a good job.

what a ****.

Spoiler

luh yuuuuu kevin

I tell people they get better. If encouraging you guys is wrong then you can all just go back to being emo and wishing you had my time/support that I'm sure several of you take for granted and can continue to say "I suck" but now with "Kevin doesn't want us to get any better and doesn't like us, that ***hole."

trolling is fun

kevin, to be fair, u have made money at every tournament except for like 2

More than 2.

I STILL LOSE MONEY BECAUSE GAS IS EXPENSIVE AND EVERYTHING IS SO FAR AWAY.

whatever I don't feel like touching on this anymore. Call me greedy or whatever, I don't care.

said kevin the guy who gets FIRST AT EVERY TOURNAMENT.


who usually gets THE MOST BIGGEST $$$ PAYOUT.


yeah no it's great being THE #1 POWER RANKED PLAYER AND WIDELY ACCEPTED AS BEING TOP 10 IN THE WORLD


kevin nanney is ****ING BIASED


hey kevin i guess you're forgetting that WE'RE NOT YOU


(that last one is my favorite )

I bet you're partially serious with some of that. ****, thanks buddy.

The way I look at it, is third should be getting a little more than their money back (unless there are like less than ten entrants). If redistributing the pot makes that not possible, then it shouldn't be redistributed. As it is, with $5 entries, we can't really pay out to fourth until we have like 25-30 entrants.

Now, we could raise entry fees. This has it's own distinct advantages. The most obvious is that we get more money in the pot so we can pay out a little further. The second, less obvious reason is that the people who enter are more motivated to play well. When you pay $10 to enter an event, you're not going to just want to waste your time. You're more likely to try harder and thus get better.

However, on the opposite side, having lower entry fees encourages more players to enter the tournament. When tournaments become too expensive, players travel to them less or travel and don't enter. We definitely don't want this.

So basically, we have to find the right equilibrium. I've always liked the idea of $7 dollar entry fees. This worked really well at the Billfests and Karnfests. I personally think we should rotate prices. Either rotate 5 and 7, or maybe 5/5/10. Something like that.

People traveled several hours like I do from OOS to enter much more expensive tournaments back in the day WITH LESS PEOPLE. If it gets enough hype and those people have the spare time/money, then they should go or get motivated to go.

dj, i'll mm u sometime soon. i'm not quite there yet.

pp, i know what the tourney experience is for, and i know where my money is going. i stand by my pride, but very few other people seem to have any pride in their own abilities, because we're busy saying we suck.

people with pride of their skill:
dj
cam
yay
fiz?
josh?

idk. but i've been sorta proud from the start. but i've also always been a realist. maybe thats holding me back. personally, i doubt it is. but i know where i stand right now, and i know my next level of people i want to beat in tourney. but those people aren't generally interested in mm's, so i have to rely on the luck of the bracket to pit me against them.

my goal is to find my limit. mentally. i'm not there yet. so i'm still playing.

quoting because people need to ******* read it.

 

[TheLastCacely]

Hey guys, just stopping by to say we should leave everything the same because nothing was wrong with it.
ok bye

 

[ZeldaRox!]

The way I look at it, is third should be getting a little more than their money back (unless there are like less than ten entrants). If redistributing the pot makes that not possible, then it shouldn't be redistributed. As it is, with $5 entries, we can't really pay out to fourth until we have like 25-30 entrants.

Now, we could raise entry fees. This has it's own distinct advantages. The most obvious is that we get more money in the pot so we can pay out a little further. The second, less obvious reason is that the people who enter are more motivated to play well. When you pay $10 to enter an event, you're not going to just want to waste your time. You're more likely to try harder and thus get better.

However, on the opposite side, having lower entry fees encourages more players to enter the tournament. When tournaments become too expensive, players travel to them less or travel and don't enter. We definitely don't want this.

So basically, we have to find the right equilibrium. I've always liked the idea of $7 dollar entry fees. This worked really well at the Billfests and Karnfests. I personally think we should rotate prices. Either rotate 5 and 7, or maybe 5/5/10. Something like that.

rotating 5 and 7 sounds good. rotating 5/5/10 will be lulz on the third week when only like 10 people show up. I certainly refuse to pay $10 per event. I pay to enter tourneys to get better and have fun. I pull 1 20 out of the bank for each tourney: to cover both events, an applicable door fee (if I don't bring my wii) and lunch and that is as far as $20 takes me.

But, would anyone consider one of those 'little league' tournaments. I like that Hawaii does them. And I feel like we should too. It gives the PR board to see where the other players stack up who don't make it to semis and it gives them a chance to compete for money (attainable money that is).

 

[DJRome]

getting in the money is not necessarily about profiting per trip. everyone has some travel costs. it's about feeling good cause u made money. i agree it should be limited, but it has nothing to do with you spending gas.

lol chris, y u call people out and then not mm them? would u not mm people like josh or karn or david either?

little league?

go stroke ur own **** on your own time

 

[lord karn]

@PP's comment:

I would completely agree, if it wasn't for the fact that we have tournaments very frequently. Back in the day you'd get one tourney a month or so. We got down to almost that over the summer (which is one of the reasons bac2 got so hyped). Now we're getting back towards about 2 tournies every 3 weeks. If you also include the fact that there are many players who play both games, and that makes it even harder to enter a lot of tournaments. Most of the community just doesn't have enough money to enter high cost events constantly.

 

[TheLastCacely]

if we start paying to top 5... then people may settle when they get 5th, rather than striving to get top 3 like it should be. Give them more motivation by leaving the payout range small.


Hey guys, just stopping by to say we should leave everything the same because nothing was wrong with it.
ok bye

 

[Dr Peepee]

Like I said, it should be a restricted privilege for those who have proven they could have it.

There are other goals that people can use to make themselves feel better about their improvement.

@everyone has costs: I'd wager not many have $80+ for food and gas on a local weekend.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

josh i'm debating mming right now, but to my knowledge, karn and david aren't very interested in mm's. i don't wimp out when i call anyone out, it's honestly that i either forget or they're no longer interested.

dunno why i'm explaining myself to you on the boards though, we already talked about this lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@PP's comment:

I would completely agree, if it wasn't for the fact that we have tournaments very frequently. Back in the day you'd get one tourney a month or so. We got down to almost that over the summer (which is one of the reasons bac2 got so hyped). Now we're getting back towards about 2 tournies every 3 weeks. If you also include the fact that there are many players who play both games, and that makes it even harder to enter a lot of tournaments. Most of the community just doesn't have enough money to enter high cost events constantly.

Then keep things the way they are. Lower entry fees means they should keep coming then, right?

 

[ZeldaRox!]

I'm kinda confused by that last part DJ....

but let me reiterate (I don't know exactly what they call it but its 'little' something.....I think league)

every year, Hawaii hosts a big tournament where everyone who hasn't won money at any of their tournaments that year can enter. They host this in the morning and then in the evening they host their regular tourney. I think NC could do something like this except like 1 every 3 months or so. More data for the PRs and a chance for people to win money who fall into that group of people who never do.

Of course you would have to stipulate that only people who had actually entered tourneys could enter into the 'little ______' one.

 

[lord karn]

I wasn't trying to say everyone spent as much as you, but that realistically if we made all our tournaments $10 that people would stop entering.

Edit: I guess that post wasn't related to me.

But for the one that was: I think we're pretty close to the ideal. I think we could just host every once in a while with higher entry fees.

 

[ZeldaRox!]

I wasn't trying to say everyone spent as much as you, but that realistically if we made all our tournaments $10 that people would stop entering.

Edit: I guess that post wasn't related to me.

But for the one that was: I think we're pretty close to the ideal. I think we could just host every once in a while with higher entry fees.

since Maria's seem to be the most hyped and have the biggest turnout.........and seem to be spaced pretty far apart, do you think that her tourneys would be the best ones to do this (especially since they run both brawl and melee)?

 

[OmniOstrich]

this discussion reminds me of magic for some reason

 

[bossa nova ♪]

you got me pegged wrong chris, im not very proud of my skill


i think i can do sexy ****, but i basically suck at this game




the people i beat just suck worse

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yo, zr, if its the people who hadn't won any money entering the amateur bracket or whatever you'd have it called, i doubt its having particular PR implications. jus sayin.

and yo karn, read my edit for my big post. i touched on that concept before i saw any of ya'll. get @ me.

yo pp, wouldn't less tournies with higher entry fees be better for you? more concentrated cash so that when you DO venture out of the cave known as shelby, you actually might profit. unless you just like seeing us all super often even though its not profitable, in which case you should...get used to being in NC? i dunno...

 

[DJRome]

he misses the billfests of $300 of winnings per game

 

[ZeldaRox!]

yo, zr, if its the people who hadn't won any money entering the amateur bracket or whatever you'd have it called, i doubt its having particular PR implications. jus sayin.

and yo karn, read my edit for my big post. i touched on that concept before i saw any of ya'll. get @ me.

yo pp, wouldn't less tournies with higher entry fees be better for you? more concentrated cash so that when you DO venture out of the cave known as shelby, you actually might profit. unless you just like seeing us all super often even though its not profitable, in which case you should...get used to being in NC? i dunno...

well if the argument goes that the same 3 or 4 people always win tourneys/end up in the final 4 (i.e. are the same ones that make money) then it seems to me that there are 6 or 7 other spots on the PR that are up for grabs.

 

[DJRome]

that data is generated with those other 3-4 people as obstacles. make ur own prs if u want, but the official ones should never include anything that forcibly excludes players. that **** is just dumb.

basically, if u fucin suck, tough luck

 

[Dr Peepee]

yo pp, wouldn't less tournies with higher entry fees be better for you? more concentrated cash so that when you DO venture out of the cave known as shelby, you actually might profit. unless you just like seeing us all super often even though its not profitable, in which case you should...get used to being in NC? i dunno...

kfvbahdvlidnvk,bdfvkhjvvnavskbjdabfhgu.sn blrgikdshfgdygksjlgkadgvjkadnlhgjs,kfbgah,djfs

I'm trying to prove a point with all of this. I'M NOT ARGUING TO GET MORE MONEY. I'M NOT BEING GREEDY. I'm arguing about this based on WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT, not what is best for me. The bigger events like BAC2/hyped stuff like GIG are what I profit enough on(unless I team with someone lower than like Cam on the current PRs sometimes) to keep making it to stuff, so I don't give a crap about money so long as I have enough to come to more. That's all I use my money on! Coming to more stuff because I love being with you guys and I love playing Melee. I hate being told I'm greedy and don't care and lie to people every time I talk about pot size and splits like I'm like that at all. I argue for better competition and an overall more successful state, and I'm sorry if some of you really believe that I'm somehow too pampered or fortunate to not understand how to properly do it.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

I mean half the pot goes to me even going to these bull**** ****s so w/e -_-

 

[Dr Peepee]

he misses the billfests of $300 of winnings per game

Yeah it was really nice when I got to come to stuff and not have to worry about how I'm gonna keep making it to things like I am now, you're right.

Bank account what?

I'm running off of the $333 I made at TO6 to come to stuff. It's not like I don't get some food with friends or lose money on most locals in between either.

I liked Billfests a lot more too because everyone didn't give me such a hard time then either. That was really magnificent.

 

[DJRome]

get a job smith wtf even i worked in high school

 

[Bl@ckChris]

you're at least proud enough to put money on the line. you recognize your own skill versus someone elses skill and realize (or at least think you realize ) that you're better than them, and can take money from them.

well, at least youre man enough to do that outside of tourney. that's primarily what i was referencing.

and yeah, i guess that's true zr, but having a pr implicating bracket without those that normally make money seems silly. of course it would only affect pr's from the 4-5th spot down but...it may as well just be a "who would win money if those other guys didn't win money" thing.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

get a job smith wtf even i worked in high school

I've been looking ever since I got back from Tipped Off 6.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I agree to larger pot splits myself. Being rewarded for placing 5th definitely felt cool and would inspire more confidence in me to enter future tournaments.

In Brawl singles at Duke, there was Kadaj, Stingers, PP, and Sushi all entered. Now tell me, how many people at that tournament besides those 4 even really thought they had a chance at 3rd place (super rigged bracket bros. aside)?

A reasonable chance at the money = more motivation = more effort = more improvement = more skill = more competition = better tournament scene.

Better placing players will always make a notable amount more money than those below them and will always have their proper motivation, while lower players would now have something to reasonably strive for in the near future.

Come on Kadaj and PP, you're always gonna be making the most money.....and you both proclaim to not really care much about the money anyway =P.

 

[TheLastCacely]

Hey guys, just stopping by to say we should leave everything the same because nothing was wrong with it.
ok bye

 

[ZeldaRox!]

that data is generated with those other 3-4 people as obstacles. make ur own prs if u want, but the official ones should never include anything that forcibly excludes players. that **** is just dumb.

basically, if u fucin suck, tough luck

I can already see that I have been gravely misinterpreted. And it is probably my fault for not being clear.

These tournaments would not be the end all be all for the final 6 or 7 spots. They would just give more data to the PR board to look at.

No doubt the 3 or 4 are obstacles in the way.

but seeding creates a vicious circle. The 5-10th ranked people will never have to meet the 1st-4th ranked people until semis. This means their positions are reinforced. And while I'm not saying this is a seriosu problem, it does raise some issues, particularly, you never see some people meet in tournament. The same 1, 2, and 3 seed people (who may in fact have potential to be 5 or 6 seed people) are eliminated early on by the top 4 people. This means they don't get a chance to face these other power ranked people in tourney.

By doing this smaller tournaments, you get a much wider diversity of matches and get to see who can beat who. And anyway, these would just be a small peice of data.

But the major part of my argument seems to have been completely ignored. By doing thse smaller tourneys, you can end this entire pointless argument. It gives a chance for everyone to win money. No longer will you have people like 'well I'm just going to have fun since I know x, y, z will win the money' but instead will be like 'wow, I really have a chance of showing my stuff and making money; I'm going to try really hard!!!" (or something like this). And those people who always fall outside of the money split finally get a chance to get that pride that comes with winning money. I really feel foxy made some good points and these smaller tournaments seem to address all those points.

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL shady XD

lol

 

[Shady Penguin]

LOL shady XD

lol

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin.

Deserving the money? What is right? Really now?

Surely you're more reasonable than to base your argument on such subjective and arbitrary standards.

 

[DJRome]

u were not misinterpreted. u only failed to understand what im saying

excluding 3-4 people = contrived situation. that situation does not mirror those of the other pr data tourneys so should be irrelevant.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

zr: bruh...if u do these "smaller tournies", then what are the people who normally make the money do? just sit around and watch? unless you make everyone who enters the smaller tourney enter the tourney with those 4-5 other people, then why should they want it to happen at all?

@defensive pp: i was actually asking which would be better. as long as we keep having 5 dollar weeklies with 20 entrants, thats what you'll get. if i remember correctly, billfests worked because once we saw the date of a billfest happening, we made sure that there was nothing the week before it, maybe even two weeks before it so as not to detract from attendance. i understand your position, and i am actually wondering which you would rather. 5 dollar weeklies, or 10 dollar monthlies with a 5 dollar tourney somewhere else in the month maybe. cause right now, NC is workin on these 5 dollar weeklies. and if we wanna do anything to these payouts, we'll need to shift to 10 dollar monthlies. i am asking your opinion on the matter of the shift.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin.

Deserving the money? What is right? Really now?

Surely you're more reasonable than to base your argument on such subjective and arbitrary standards.

Hahahahahahahaha

That's what I said alright. yup

 

[ZeldaRox!]

u were not misinterpreted. u only failed to understand what im saying

excluding 3-4 people = contrived situation. that situation does not mirror those of the other pr data tourneys so should be irrelevant.

I understood exactly what you were saying. However, it seems you ignored the my points.

I feel that the PR boards are generally correct for the first 4 or 5 positions. But the last 4 or 5 seem to be 'generally correct' but the ordering seems debatable.

I mean if I'm a 3 seed person and I always end up facing a top ranked player 1st round, I already know that I have to battle through losers to even be able to show my skill. If an upset occurred early on, then I'm out of the tourney round 2 (if it didn't occur, I can probably get to round 3 or 4). And thus my 3 seed is reinforced. And its the same situation next week. and the following week. But say I get wrecked by sushi, kadaj, stingers, etc. But say I go fairly even (even if I end up losing but I still gave them a run) against other top players.

Does this anecdote not demonstrate some of the issues with brackets. Also, if I do well against those other pr players, but I never get a chance to show it in tourney, doesn't that say something about how unfair this is being to me.

Honestly, I don't see why you are so quick to attack one of these tourneys. It lets a greater number of matches to be taken into account. If PR ranked member 7 8 9 and 10 show that they can beat most of NC whereas 4 and 5 show that they can beat 7 8 9 and 10 but end up losing a few people that 7 8 9 and 10 beat, then doesn't that seem to indicate something wrong with the PR calculations? Like I said, the last 5 positions are kind of iffy on placing. They only seem to indicate who wins among those 4 or 5 contestants but not among the rest of NC.


***
zr: bruh...if u do these "smaller tournies", then what are the people who normally make the money do? just sit around and watch? unless you make everyone who enters the smaller tourney enter the tourney with those 4-5 other people, then why should they want it to happen at all?
***

well......one thing they could do is not show up until later....

or they could just play friendlies if they feel like showing up early.

Its once every 3 or 4 months (or you can do what Hawaii does and just do it once a year....but I feel like most people would like a chance at money a little more often than once a year).

And I like how the 2 of you are trying to derail my entire argument by one little insignificant point blown out of proportion. I said these could be collected in the data. That is all. But the major point of my original argument was to end this bickering about no chance to win pride or money. I swear, create red herrings much?

and I did stipulate that to enter these smaller tourneys you have to have participated in other tourneys (we could set it to like 75% of the local tourneys).

 

[stingers]

cause i will not be beating pp, dop, yay or l0zr in...possibly ever.

ughhh

i hate u

 

[TheLastCacely]

but seriously guys.... we should just leave stuff the way it is.

no need to fix what aint broke.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@defensive pp: i was actually asking which would be better. as long as we keep having 5 dollar weeklies with 20 entrants, thats what you'll get. if i remember correctly, billfests worked because once we saw the date of a billfest happening, we made sure that there was nothing the week before it, maybe even two weeks before it so as not to detract from attendance. i understand your position, and i am actually wondering which you would rather. 5 dollar weeklies, or 10 dollar monthlies with a 5 dollar tourney somewhere else in the month maybe. cause right now, NC is workin on these 5 dollar weeklies. and if we wanna do anything to these payouts, we'll need to shift to 10 dollar monthlies. i am asking your opinion on the matter of the shift.

I don't really care. I'm not so self-absorbed that I should try to change the way we schedule tournaments so that I turn a profit. I've never done that and never wanted to make an issue of it but I lost my cool and still don't have it at the moment.

This argument has happened between DJ and I twice, and it's a tough one. I don't know what I want right now.

pros for more frequent:

-more play time and tourney experience for players
-more get-togethers if you enjoy smasher company like that
-less expensive(benefits those who can only come to stuff infrequently more)

cons:

-lots of time/money investment
-possible decrease in hype for a given tournament
-reduces number of fests available for just training or low-key atmosphere


Monthlies/two tourneys max a month...ies may be better for hype and you could still train during weekends for fests if you wanted to, but it's really about what you wanna prioritize.

I guess I'll argue for less tournaments but I really like seeing you guys so I don't know. I couldn't afford to do fests atm and that blows.

I hate being indecisive for 1000s of reasons right now.