What was the point of you coming into our thread and being disrespectful to our smash community? Regardless if our assumptions of the game in its current state is wrong, we want a place to voice our feelings and opinions of the new build without getting insulted upon.
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NC Brawl+ PR
- Thread starter NC-Echo
- Start date
KillerSOS
Smash Champion
*CT*
Smash Lord
This doesn't have to get political but it might get physical?
lord karn
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure you missed the basic assumption of his post. The point is that the game is being changed yet again before the metagame has a chance to develop. Maybe MK's drill rush is broken or maybe there are answers to it, that's not the point.
How do we know what B+ is currently capable of developing into? There are currently so few good players that actually play B+, that it's really hard to see what the potential of the game is. Even the few amazing players who play B+ play it on the side or just enter it and win because they are really good at Brawl. Even if we did have a huge community developing the metagame, the latest build has only been out for like two months or something.
Sure, there are some obvious broken things that needed to be fixed, like Ness and a few other things, and adding things like ledge-cancelling is cool. I just don't see why it is a good thing to go and add new game-breaking changes, like NADT and less hitstun. The game feels natural enough to me right now that I think the only things that should really be changed are character specific buffs and nerfs to keep the cast balanced.
It just seems like when the WBR released 5.0 they were like, "Here's a build really close to gold. Let's try not to change too much so we can let a metagame develop." Because of this general attitude from the WBR I decided to train pretty intensely with my friend, learning matchups, combos, practicing decision points, etc.
Now the WBR is like, "Just kidding guys, we let the metagame develop for a little bit now it's time to **** everything up again." Now pretty much all of the time I've put into learning the game feels completely wasted. Honestly, I might just stop playing B+ seriously and switch back to Melee until I know the game isn't going to change drastically anymore.
Edit: Also, you are assuming you've put more time into testing this game than us, when you really have no way of knowing this. Maybe you have or maybe you haven't. It doesn't really matter. Address the points not the person's credentials.
NC-Echo
Smash Lord
Veril, I suggest you read Lord Karn's post... get *****.
*CT*
Smash Lord
That was why I didn't want to learn B+ at first, but I thought the updates were more frequent. But I still like the concept, but the never ending changing game, just like the song that never ends.
Ledger_Damayn
Smash Ace
I didn't notice any significant difference when playing Pit, since most of his combos are only ever two or three hit (nair chaining or jab/tilt resetting into grab/smash is about his only longer combos from what I've seen/played), but playing as Charizard feels kind of gimp now, since more and more people can escape from his Uair chains. Perhaps the people I play against are learning to DI it properly, but I don't have the opportunity to play the game enough to be sure. That was just my experience.
I play a lot of Falco too, but I don't feel like he's any worse than what he use to be. Maybe his reflector **** is a bit harder to use, but his pillaring combos seem just as easy to pull off. Same thing with Fox's Uair follow ups.
I play a lot of Falco too, but I don't feel like he's any worse than what he use to be. Maybe his reflector **** is a bit harder to use, but his pillaring combos seem just as easy to pull off. Same thing with Fox's Uair follow ups.
Veril
Frame Savant
If you played the Beta with .44 hitstun, it got changed to .46: try it plz
@lord karn: You've basically laid out the most valid core argument against the beta's core mechanics adjustments. Its true, we will be turning back the clock in regards to the metagame somewhat. The thing is, the change is far less drastic than people make it out to be. This beta has not been public nearly long enough for people to make assumptions like: my practice was all in vain Q.Q
I made the EXACT SAME lrn2DI based arguement. At BtL2 I got really tired of all the Johning from people who just hadn't mastered the DI. Eventually you reach a point though where you can see that several combos genuinely are inescapable, have excessively large advantage windows (notably with d-throws), and just give the game a sloppiness that turns a lot of people off. I refuse to accept that shaving a few frames of advantage windows has suddenly killed a ton of combos when people have barely practiced the beta.
I know I've done more testing. That p***es you off that I would say this? I understand. Its still true. The amount of time I put into testing 5.0 is pretty absurd (think well over 100 hours of data collection and analysis), and so when I see people talking about how there's less hitstun than melee its fair to assume they aren't speaking from a vast hidden store of knowledge.
@ everyone else: I call you out on genuine mistakes and I'm trolling/insulting you. That's pathetic. I came here because I actually do care about public opinion of the beta, which I was dead against initially because of the lowered hitstun (it was .44 initially but was raised to .46).
Some other points:
*This is a BETA FOR F***ING BETA TESTING!
*We have not confirmed that any of these changes will be made official.
@lord karn: You've basically laid out the most valid core argument against the beta's core mechanics adjustments. Its true, we will be turning back the clock in regards to the metagame somewhat. The thing is, the change is far less drastic than people make it out to be. This beta has not been public nearly long enough for people to make assumptions like: my practice was all in vain Q.Q
I made the EXACT SAME lrn2DI based arguement. At BtL2 I got really tired of all the Johning from people who just hadn't mastered the DI. Eventually you reach a point though where you can see that several combos genuinely are inescapable, have excessively large advantage windows (notably with d-throws), and just give the game a sloppiness that turns a lot of people off. I refuse to accept that shaving a few frames of advantage windows has suddenly killed a ton of combos when people have barely practiced the beta.
I know I've done more testing. That p***es you off that I would say this? I understand. Its still true. The amount of time I put into testing 5.0 is pretty absurd (think well over 100 hours of data collection and analysis), and so when I see people talking about how there's less hitstun than melee its fair to assume they aren't speaking from a vast hidden store of knowledge.
@ everyone else: I call you out on genuine mistakes and I'm trolling/insulting you. That's pathetic. I came here because I actually do care about public opinion of the beta, which I was dead against initially because of the lowered hitstun (it was .44 initially but was raised to .46).
So true.
Some other points:
*This is a BETA FOR F***ING BETA TESTING!
*We have not confirmed that any of these changes will be made official.
NC-Echo
Smash Lord
Veril, if you have someone to say. Perhaps you should try to be a little less of a douchebag when you say it and then maybe people will listen to you. Coming into our thread and saying, "I know more than you, your wrong", is not achieving your goals, in less of course you are attempting to appear as a giant douche
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
come on, bill...
@.@
@.@
NC-Echo
Smash Lord
Fine, i toned it down.
Veril
Frame Savant
I apologize. Reading that "nobody had done any serious testing" made me very angry. The thing is, a lot of testing has been done. A lot of testing has been done... by me personally. Its possible that a lot of the opinions here come from having played the beta when hitstun was at .44.
.44 hitstun was too low, and the beta now has it set to .46. If you haven't tried the updated version, please do. The change to advantage windows is very small generally.
Example: CF's d-throw had ~41 frames of initial hitstun in 5.0. The beta version has only 4 frames less. Is that game-breaking? No. His d-throw combos still work, they just can sometimes be teched out of due to the lower angle and don't last forever due to the effect the hitstun mod has on growth. The adv window actually is lower than the point of earliest tech with DI at higher % for most of the cast, so even that doesn't kill the d-throw knee entirely, just makes it less automatic.
Do you see where I'm coming from. That's just an example but it reflects the changes overall. D-throw to Knee, **** in a can? In 5.0 d-throw knee was essentially guaranteed on any non-FFer at all %, and on FFers at higher %. No matter how you DI (as Jiggs for example), you will get knee'd. This is not theory-craft. In the Beta you have the option of DIing down and FFing to tech early and possibly escape followups. There is slightly lower hitstun so the combo will work within a more narrow window even without DI. So as the player being thrown, you need to know the point at which it is more practical to DI and tech, since this actually might result in a greater combo window than had you used an aerial to escape. If you use an aerial and DI you'll have to deal with whatever landing lag comes up, and of course, it might not stop the knee.
It isn't like vBrawl where there's a massive and ******** guessing game. The player on the offensive and defensive have better balanced options here than in either vBrawl or 5.0, and the thought that goes into these situations is, I believe, more intellectually appealing and more worth playing.
lord karn
Smash Master
About the time put into analyzing the game and whatnot. I don't doubt that you have put more time into researching the game than me. However, it's really hard for someone to quantify/qualify testing. You probably know a lot more about frame data, etc than I do for B+ specifically, but I've put in quite a lot of hours with THO learning specific matchups. It could very well be the case that we have looked into different things than each other, which means that it is quite possible that there are things that I know more about than you. There just isn't really any way to know unless we talk about it.
When it comes to matchups, especially ones that are hard, every subtle change to the game can make a big difference. For instance, Ganon can CG Fox to about 50% (further if he doesn't DI right) and it's important for me to know exactly at which points I need to do what motion to keep the CG going. Furthermore, I need to know what the optimal move to end the CG with based off of where he DIs to keep him at a disadvantageous position. Changing the hitstun and adding NADT makes it so that most of this information I have gathered is useless. In fact, it could put me at a disadvantage unless I do all the work over again, because I would be relying on knowledge of a previous build. Changing the game so much encourages people to not learn their characters, which makes it impossible to judge what actually should and should not be changed.
Now, perhaps Ganon's chaingrab, or any other specific thing, should be changed (although in the Fox/Ganon matchup I would probably argue that Fox still has a slight advantage). However, why make a sweeping change to mechanics when you could just change specific things about specific moves? This makes it much easier for the players who are learning their characters to easily incorporate the changes into their game. When sweeping changes are made, though, people have to retest everything.
I also don't see why it's a problem for there to be some inescapable combos. Melee had many, and most people still agree that it was a great game. I haven't seen a ridiculous combo in B+ yet that felt inescapable.
Honestly, I think that right now B+ is good enough of a game that we should be worrying a lot more about the community than continuing to make the game 'perfect.' I put perfect in quotes, because who is really to say that Cape's beta is actually a better game than the current one? I do know, however, that the constant changes in the game are turning a lot of the amazing players, like m2k and other pros, away from playing B+. In order for any particular build to reach it's potential, which is the only way to truly inform us if a build is, in fact, sub-par, we need to have lots of good players learning the game and entering tournaments.
This wouldn't bother me nearly as much if they hadn't left such a big gap between 5.0 and the current Beta, or had never made it seem like we were close to a gold.
Also, I don't think I was the one to post that it has less hitstun or whatever the original post was, but I did know that it was untrue. The thing that bothered me about your post was that you were asking us to assume that your opinion of the game mattered more than ours, when the very basic assumption of your post was assuming that we knew very little. It just seemed kind of hypocritical.
I'm not trying to kick you out of the thread or anything. I also care about the future of B+ and I'm glad people from the WBR are reading this thread.
Edit: I think by 'serious testing,' THO meant that since the metagame hasn't had time to develop, that the testing done is difficult to interpret. Or something like that. Perhaps he just worded it badly.
I would also argue that in a lot of cases four frames can mean a big difference, and it's still important for the player to retest things to make sure they still know what is guaranteed and what is not guaranteed.
Veril
Frame Savant
read my above post plz
Gimme a sec while I respond to the above.
Gimme a sec while I respond to the above.
Foxy
Smash Master
I want to thank you, Veril, for coming to this thread and discussing it with our NC players.
Even if everyone seems to have very opposing views, it's important to talk about it and explain the points.
Even if everyone seems to have very opposing views, it's important to talk about it and explain the points.
lord karn
Smash Master
This post is in response to Veril's most recent post, which was posted while I posted my last post.
I do admit that the one I was playing was the beta with .44 hitstun and not .46. It still seems, though, that any change in hitstun will change the game enough so that people who learned their characters will have to do most of the work again. Also, I don't really see why d-throw to knee being guaranteed is necessarily a bad thing. For a large amount of the window that it works, it would probably be better to do other things so that you could continue the combo longer, anyways. Even if dthrow to knee is stupid, why not just change something about CFs moves, so that there aren't so many over-arching effects that change lots of other things as well. It seems highly possible that the lowering of hitstun might affect things not intended.
I also don't really like NADT because it seems like keeping air dodges in allows more points of exit from combos, unless the player comboing reads the air-dodge, which makes it possible for crazy combos to exist if one player reads the other, which I like.
Either way, perhaps this new build is, in fact, a better game than 5.0. My main point is that we need to let the metagame develop so the scene can get better and more competitive. The difference in opinion here hinges on this point. I think the development of the scene is the main limiting factor in B+'s success, while you think we should keep changing the game.
Also, I agree with Foxy.
I do admit that the one I was playing was the beta with .44 hitstun and not .46. It still seems, though, that any change in hitstun will change the game enough so that people who learned their characters will have to do most of the work again. Also, I don't really see why d-throw to knee being guaranteed is necessarily a bad thing. For a large amount of the window that it works, it would probably be better to do other things so that you could continue the combo longer, anyways. Even if dthrow to knee is stupid, why not just change something about CFs moves, so that there aren't so many over-arching effects that change lots of other things as well. It seems highly possible that the lowering of hitstun might affect things not intended.
I also don't really like NADT because it seems like keeping air dodges in allows more points of exit from combos, unless the player comboing reads the air-dodge, which makes it possible for crazy combos to exist if one player reads the other, which I like.
Either way, perhaps this new build is, in fact, a better game than 5.0. My main point is that we need to let the metagame develop so the scene can get better and more competitive. The difference in opinion here hinges on this point. I think the development of the scene is the main limiting factor in B+'s success, while you think we should keep changing the game.
Also, I agree with Foxy.
Veril
Frame Savant
You're welcome. I'm sorry I was so abrasive initially. That was wrong of me, but I assure you I meant no disrespect to your community as a whole. The thing about being a douche though... it does get everyone's attention.
I'm sorry if players were lead to believe that RC1 was supposed to be permanent in any way shape or form. Almost as soon as it was released problems in the set became apparent. Ness is the most obvious of these.
I actually can help you out there WITH SCIENCE!
His d-throw CG is weaker, yes, but we improved the iasa on his up-throw, so I have a proposal for you:Don't discount the set just yet, try it with .46 hitstun mod and play around with Ganon's other throw options besides just d-throw. Keep an open mind about it. In exchange I'll post all of Ganon's 5.0 and beta throw frame data (one of the things I test...), as well as the analysis... when I get home later. I'll put up pretty graphs and explanations. Deal?
I think we should change the game once more and be done with it. Minor tweaks are all that we should need after this.
lord karn
Smash Master
I guess if 5.0 wasn't meant to be close to gold in the first place then it's not so bad that it is changing.You're welcome. I'm sorry I was so abrasive initially. That was wrong of me, but I assure you I meant no disrespect to your community as a whole. The thing about being a douche though... it does get everyone's attention.
I'm sorry if players were lead to believe that RC1 was supposed to be permanent in any way shape or form. Almost as soon as it was released problems in the set became apparent. Ness is the most obvious of these.
I actually can help you out there WITH SCIENCE!
Don't discount the set just yet, try it with .46 hitstun mod and play around with Ganon's other throw options besides just d-throw. Keep an open mind about it. In exchange I'll post all of Ganon's 5.0 and beta throw frame data (one of the things I test...), as well as the analysis... when I get home later. I'll put up pretty graphs and explanations. Deal?
I'll probably try the new build over Thanksgiving break, so that info will be very useful. I do intend to keep practicing and learning, it's just unfortunate that I'll have to go back over a lot of things.
Out of curiosity, is there any plan currently as to when we will get to a stable build? It would be awesome if we had something before pound, since it will likely be the biggest conglomeration of B+ players so far and would be a pretty valuable piece of data.
Unfortunately, I must go now.
Veril
Frame Savant
Honestly, I want a stable build ASAP and I know I'm not alone in the backroom. NC is the only notable region to so strongly oppose the beta (though not the current beta it seems...). The other major regions (NY, MD/VA) have expressed far more support for the beta. Its very much worth noting that the input of a lot of high level players from all these regions went into creating the beta. I hope that NC enjoys the latest beta more than the earlier one. Personally, I hated hitstun at .44 as well. It got changed because people weren't happy with it, same with stale moves.
Please (continue to) provide feedback from your play sessions, obviously being as specific as possible is ideal. I hope to see a stable, optimized variant of the Beta ready in time for Pound. Given the history of miscommunications though, I must make it clear that we can't promise anything.
Please (continue to) provide feedback from your play sessions, obviously being as specific as possible is ideal. I hope to see a stable, optimized variant of the Beta ready in time for Pound. Given the history of miscommunications though, I must make it clear that we can't promise anything.
OmniOstrich
Smash Lord
I was appreciative of the larger more detailed posts @_@
That's because you're grounded and have all the time to read such large posts.
NC-Echo
Smash Lord
This thread has became very funny. Sorry you still grounded Omni.
I'm just messin' lol.
But I didn't read anything that was said between the two after the first two posts.
I'll just continue my regular *****ing
Veril, my biggest worry is touched on in your post. It's true: lowering hitstun forces more quick thinking in combos (a dubious criterion for a game's depth to begin with). I'm not going to argue about that. The problem is when you start having to compensate for lowered hitstun by pushing the IASA frames further back, which you've mentioned would be done for Ganon's uthrow. Then, you find out that combos are again too easy so you lower hitstun, etc. etc. If you continue down this road, DI becomes less and less effective and more and more often, one move becomes most effective in covering all DI options. I'm not saying that this is going to happen. I'm just saying, make sure you know the possible effects of what you're doing. Someone warned about power creep around the time this project began, and this is a potential manifestation of a similar phenomenon.
Look at a game like Blazblue, which has very, very low overall stun on most moves, and pretty much zero lag between gatling canceled moves. For the most part, the combo game in BB is actually very boring. You learn the safest combo starters, then you learn the combo that will do the most damage and leave you in the best position to start another for that situation, and realistically, you only really have to think about it once or twice every match. A good Smash example is the Gonzo Combo, which is difficult to escape from, if it's possible at all with a given character. DI won't help, and SDI (which is weaker in B+) is a must.
Of note is that BB is not imbalanced because of this combo system (it's imbalanced because of its guard libra system). And it certainly doesn't lack depth, nor is it especially unpopular, except among certain GG players. I suppose I just want someone in the WBR to acknowledge that any given tweak in the physics of the game is absolutely meaningless to how deep the game is, and to acknowledge that no matter how little hitstun there is, anyone who's being dominated will not enjoy the game as much as the person dominating, so worrying about the emotional impact of combo length is really unproductive. I know Supermodel From Paris posted a link to a blog about real-time balancing in some thread, I think it would be worth noting.
Look at a game like Blazblue, which has very, very low overall stun on most moves, and pretty much zero lag between gatling canceled moves. For the most part, the combo game in BB is actually very boring. You learn the safest combo starters, then you learn the combo that will do the most damage and leave you in the best position to start another for that situation, and realistically, you only really have to think about it once or twice every match. A good Smash example is the Gonzo Combo, which is difficult to escape from, if it's possible at all with a given character. DI won't help, and SDI (which is weaker in B+) is a must.
Of note is that BB is not imbalanced because of this combo system (it's imbalanced because of its guard libra system). And it certainly doesn't lack depth, nor is it especially unpopular, except among certain GG players. I suppose I just want someone in the WBR to acknowledge that any given tweak in the physics of the game is absolutely meaningless to how deep the game is, and to acknowledge that no matter how little hitstun there is, anyone who's being dominated will not enjoy the game as much as the person dominating, so worrying about the emotional impact of combo length is really unproductive. I know Supermodel From Paris posted a link to a blog about real-time balancing in some thread, I think it would be worth noting.
Veril
Frame Savant
The slippery slope argument has several flaws inherent in it. Why would a huge change like a hitstun reduction be made multiple times when its clearly a very controversial change to begin with? We won't change hitstun, at all, ever again, if the beta change becomes official. Seriously, I'll quit the wbr if that happens, an empty promise because it never would. If comboing became too easy we would simply tone down the reduction on the iasa. The iasa changes are designed to internally balance a characters throws somewhat so that they have a reason to use something other than just d-throw... or whatever dominant move is in question. The comparison with BlazBlue is likewise flawed because of the mechanic of IASA on hit, which is largely non-existent in smash, but radically alters the nature of the comboing game (though it is kinda a cool mechanic in small doses imo). Your statement on boring mindless combos applies perfectly to some of the "autocombos" of B+.
Finally, I F***ING LOVE EXCESSIVE COMBOS! Seriously, I do. I play MK, Jiggs, Ganon, and Lucas partly because of how **** their combos are. The beta set doesn't get rid of awesome sexy combos, it just makes them require more skill to set up and execute, and limits the % window some of them work in. Long combos aren't an issue so much as short, absolutely reliable and effective combos that will work regardless of DI.
On the throw changes: I'm testing them now (again... "sigh") to make CERTAIN that no characters throw got nerfed into uselessness. I promised I'd put up the Ganon charts when I was finished (just got home so I need a little time), if you have concerns regarding "insert character name here" I can do the same for them.
Finally, I F***ING LOVE EXCESSIVE COMBOS! Seriously, I do. I play MK, Jiggs, Ganon, and Lucas partly because of how **** their combos are. The beta set doesn't get rid of awesome sexy combos, it just makes them require more skill to set up and execute, and limits the % window some of them work in. Long combos aren't an issue so much as short, absolutely reliable and effective combos that will work regardless of DI.
On the throw changes: I'm testing them now (again... "sigh") to make CERTAIN that no characters throw got nerfed into uselessness. I promised I'd put up the Ganon charts when I was finished (just got home so I need a little time), if you have concerns regarding "insert character name here" I can do the same for them.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Yo Veril can you nerf Lucas somehow and give Lucas his old PK fire back. When I said Lucas needed a Zair (which is awesome btw) I meant in conjunction with his useful PK Fire. I mean it wasn't even too good before lol, not only did you nerf his recovery (magnet pull = 
now) but you made his already meh camping game even worse. I mean Lucas definitely was not deserving of a nerf lol, he's clearly in the bottom half of characters as is...
now) but you made his already meh camping game even worse. I mean Lucas definitely was not deserving of a nerf lol, he's clearly in the bottom half of characters as is...The fact that you (and pretty much all other members of the WBR) dismiss the "slippery slope" argument so flippantly is what worries me though. If you genuinely were concerned about it, my fears would be assuaged, but as it is, you seem to put yourselves above it as a group. That's why the argument holds water to me, because hubris is insidious and powerful.
And I used gatling combos as an illustration of what happens when combos become very rapid. Essentially, I'm saying that short, reliable combos are even more reliable if you lower hitstun, raise upgravity and compensate with some IASA buffs. And I don't believe for a minute when you say it's just throws; when I pointed out that raised upgravity might make ZSS's short hop double up air (extremely technical, but vital to low percent combos) impossible, whoever I was talking to (a member of the WBR) said that the IASA can be bumped back to compensate.
So obviously the will to compensate for one potential mistake with another potential mistake is there. When you act like it's not there, I can't help but worry.
And I used gatling combos as an illustration of what happens when combos become very rapid. Essentially, I'm saying that short, reliable combos are even more reliable if you lower hitstun, raise upgravity and compensate with some IASA buffs. And I don't believe for a minute when you say it's just throws; when I pointed out that raised upgravity might make ZSS's short hop double up air (extremely technical, but vital to low percent combos) impossible, whoever I was talking to (a member of the WBR) said that the IASA can be bumped back to compensate.
So obviously the will to compensate for one potential mistake with another potential mistake is there. When you act like it's not there, I can't help but worry.
Ledger_Damayn
Smash Ace
My roommate mains Sonic (argh), and all he does is run around and f/dsmash. And I almost lost. Due to the lower hitstun, he was able to spring away from any combo not entirely in hitstun. It was pretty frustrating. Just saying. Lol.
Ledger_Damayn
Smash Ace
Lol Jon, cry more that Ness' fair isn't 0->death combo.
Pit isn't very fun anymore. I usually stick to Falco/Charizard now.
Pit isn't very fun anymore. I usually stick to Falco/Charizard now.
Seems like a good opponent to practice your combos on. If you miss, you know you've screwed up.
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
i just play ic and spam bair and nair. i swear i'm playing them wrong but it works!
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
down b is better. but yeah, ic has like the best specials in the game.
That's interesting. I've seen a lot of "move tier lists," but I've never seen a BMove tier list.
Ice Climbers
Metaknight
Lucas
Falco
Captain Falcon (obviously, Falcon Punch more than makes up for any bad move)
Hrm..
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
well if we're really gonna make a b-move tier list, i'd say that its: snake, ic, wario, bowser.....?
stingers
Smash Obsessed
wario and bowser? o.O
Snake, Toon Link, ICs, Falco, Pikachu are top 5 imo
Meta Knight and Sonic are the next 2 probably...then I really don't know
Snake, Toon Link, ICs, Falco, Pikachu are top 5 imo
Meta Knight and Sonic are the next 2 probably...then I really don't know
I was going off of overall usefulness, not one specific move.
Metaknight can recovery well with all 4 of his
Falco has lasers, a 1 frame reflector, and a good horizontal recovery
Lucas can do ridiculous stuff with his B moves, I don't know their usefulness. Just seemed good.
Metaknight can recovery well with all 4 of his
Falco has lasers, a 1 frame reflector, and a good horizontal recovery
Lucas can do ridiculous stuff with his B moves, I don't know their usefulness. Just seemed good.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
snakes neutral b (best projectile) and down b (makes his recovery go from complete **** to pretty good) are enough to get him on the list
toon link should be obvious, 3 amazing projectiles and a good recovery move. ics are obvious, falco is obvious, i think pikachu deserves a spot over MK too because MK doesn't even need his specials for recovery (if all his specials sucked for recovery then MK would just glide everywhere he needed to be).
toon link should be obvious, 3 amazing projectiles and a good recovery move. ics are obvious, falco is obvious, i think pikachu deserves a spot over MK too because MK doesn't even need his specials for recovery (if all his specials sucked for recovery then MK would just glide everywhere he needed to be).