Veril
Frame Savant
There have been a number of threads making reference to the state of the community, discussing how we can improve, what has gone wrong, or putting forth some theory as to what our focus should be.
There are a few points I want to cover in this thread.
1. These threads have often highlighted a philosophical divide in our community; individual development through tournament attendance and results vs. character development through research and advancement of the metagame. Of course, both of these positions are valid, however, the second has never been adequately defended against the proponents of the first.
2. Our community is fundamentally sound and productive. There are flaws; no online group is perfect. These flaws are present to a much greater degree in other boards, and when a serious issue has arisen here, we have always dealt with it. These issues are:
-spam
-infighting
-elitism
-tech obsession vs. rejection
-level of activity
3. We can help eachother progress as players. Many of the quieter ones here are actually pretty good (rinoh comes to mind). That said, we are making a huge mistake by playing primarily Jiggs dittos.
A Philosophical Divide:
Tech development and Discussion vs. Personal Development and mastery of the basics
For those who read Lonejedi's thread regarding our community, you have an idea of the extreme of the personal development side. As you can probably guess from my... intense... response to him, I fall on the far end of the other camp. If you viewed it as a spectrum, most players fall closer to the middle. In regards to research, only a few players have been seriously involved. The same goes for tournament attendance. The Personal Development side has been very clearly and eloquently espoused by Thinkaman and many good ideas were put forth by Lone. Guess what comes now... my rebuttal.
The most obvious point is that this is a forum. People come here to read about techniques or matchups to keep up with the metagame. Most of the players who focus on mastering the fundamental aspects through practice actually contribute relatively little to our development as a community. We can all get better by playing... no s***. People who are trying to incorporate new tech into their games AND have a tourney record, like PNDMike, are really our best asset in that they determine what actually works. The assumption that people discovering or implementing new tech have no tourney or even legit offline experience is completely asinine.
In order to determine what tech is viable, it must be attempted. If you've never done so and don't intend to, you've been talking out of your a**. The reason I got so angry with Lone (thankfully we're cool now, he's a good guy) was that probably the prime example of new tech, rest interrupts HAS BEEN SUCCESSFULLY USED IN TOURNEY. Sorry about the caps, it was necessary. For many interrupts, you don't need crazy SDI (a common false assumption), all you have to do is hold down, and press b. That's it.
Jigglypuff, if you ignore all the new developments, and the possibility for future growth, even if all the basic aspects of smash were mastered, would not be viable at a high level. This is pretty much accepted by 99% of players here, or at least grudgingly acknowledged. Players like thinkaman are huge exceptions, and we haven't learned anything from watching him... because he has no (as far as I know) videos uploaded. Jigglypuff needs any and all tricks available to her, especially if they guarantee both a combo break AND a KO move hitting. "cough"
The Personal Development side has excellent points however, reading about techs won't improve you. It does give you the potential to improve in a way that would be impossible without the research. As a player, it is up to you to decide what you want to implement or not. If you aren't playing good people, you won't get better, period. This isn't exactly a radical idea. I've got some ideas as to how we can help eachother that I'll detail later on.
Is a good one... perfect, no. We share flaws that are pretty much unavoidable to a certain extent on any forum. However, all of these could be minimized simply through player recognition of them and a concerted effort to correct our own mistakes.
Spam is in my opinion are most significant issue. It was terrible before Illinialex got things under control, from what I hear. For a period of time, it was very low, basically from when I got here to late February. Whatever the reason, the amount of spam has been increasing steadily since then. STOP F***ING SPAMMING... as much. A little spam is good to lighten the mood and for the lols. There is simply too much now. I spam, I admit this, but I keep it to a minimum. There is no excuse for it. We have a chatroom. I'm actually glad Airgemini has been infracting people. We don't have a spam epidemic. If you want to see a board whose reputation is really hurt by their absurd spam, look at the Sonic boards. Funny guys, but WAAAAY too much spam. Lets not be like that.
Infighting has been a big issue as of late. I'm not gonna name names. Things have calmed down a lot, but this bs is probably one of the worst things a community has to deal with. Look at the Peach boards and the absolute insanity that went down there. Now, I have been guilty of this as well. I got extremely upset with Lonejedi and it took a little while to get that resolved. The point here is it was resolved. He and I apologized and I respect and like him, even though initially I really wanted him to stfu and gtfo. I was wrong, but it didn't disrupt the board in any long term way.
Level of activity is way less of an issue here than it used to be. We have an influx of new talent, and there are people consistently working on... whatever really.
Tech obsession vs. Rejection... that arguement is basically detailed already. I honestly don't really give a s*** about any criticism directed at me regarding that at this point... Unless its from Illinialex, who has actually put in more work testing than me. If something is useless, by all means say that you think so, but avoid blanket statements. Especially if you don't even know how to execute something. The Yoshi boards have a tech addiction, we don't.
Elitism. Ok, most of the frequent posters are guilty of this. On the other hand, people say stupid crap on an almost constant basis. We obviously aren't the absurdly elitist Marth boards or tactical board a****** argument junkies. Mostly, we all need to be nicer to Woodman. I'm guilty simply by not trying prevent all the insults. He's good. So is rinoh. Woody: edit the things you write. You will be respected literally 10000x more, in other words, the amount you deserve.
Jiggs dittos are crap. Borderline useless. I've learned infinitely more playing Airgemini's Peach on a red connection than playing anyone's Jiggs. Why? Well, for one thing, I might actually play against a Peach in tourney. And Air is legit. I could wifi John but it really wouldn't be fair (PUN!). He beats me the majority of the time we play. The margins are smaller and smaller, but he is still winning. And offline I am so much better against Peach now.
Most of us have other mains or secondaries. While Lone did own my Lucas last time we played, I usually win any Jiggs vs. Lucas match. The same is true with MK vs. Jiggs. Or how I lose to G-regs Samus. But I'm beating GWs now, because I've played so many of those f***ers. Its a terrible matchup, but I know it well enough that I can, with difficulty, overcome that.
My point. Use your other characters more often, especially if its GW or any tourney viable character. The experience is much more useful than a rollout lagfest. And try to play people with better connections, it makes a big difference for Jiggs. The AiB ladder is your friend (OMG was Lonejedi right about that).
We should get some kind of practice routine, idk, thoughts.
There are a few points I want to cover in this thread.
1. These threads have often highlighted a philosophical divide in our community; individual development through tournament attendance and results vs. character development through research and advancement of the metagame. Of course, both of these positions are valid, however, the second has never been adequately defended against the proponents of the first.
2. Our community is fundamentally sound and productive. There are flaws; no online group is perfect. These flaws are present to a much greater degree in other boards, and when a serious issue has arisen here, we have always dealt with it. These issues are:
-spam
-infighting
-elitism
-tech obsession vs. rejection
-level of activity
3. We can help eachother progress as players. Many of the quieter ones here are actually pretty good (rinoh comes to mind). That said, we are making a huge mistake by playing primarily Jiggs dittos.
A Philosophical Divide:
Tech development and Discussion vs. Personal Development and mastery of the basics
The most obvious point is that this is a forum. People come here to read about techniques or matchups to keep up with the metagame. Most of the players who focus on mastering the fundamental aspects through practice actually contribute relatively little to our development as a community. We can all get better by playing... no s***. People who are trying to incorporate new tech into their games AND have a tourney record, like PNDMike, are really our best asset in that they determine what actually works. The assumption that people discovering or implementing new tech have no tourney or even legit offline experience is completely asinine.
In order to determine what tech is viable, it must be attempted. If you've never done so and don't intend to, you've been talking out of your a**. The reason I got so angry with Lone (thankfully we're cool now, he's a good guy) was that probably the prime example of new tech, rest interrupts HAS BEEN SUCCESSFULLY USED IN TOURNEY. Sorry about the caps, it was necessary. For many interrupts, you don't need crazy SDI (a common false assumption), all you have to do is hold down, and press b. That's it.
Jigglypuff, if you ignore all the new developments, and the possibility for future growth, even if all the basic aspects of smash were mastered, would not be viable at a high level. This is pretty much accepted by 99% of players here, or at least grudgingly acknowledged. Players like thinkaman are huge exceptions, and we haven't learned anything from watching him... because he has no (as far as I know) videos uploaded. Jigglypuff needs any and all tricks available to her, especially if they guarantee both a combo break AND a KO move hitting. "cough"
The Personal Development side has excellent points however, reading about techs won't improve you. It does give you the potential to improve in a way that would be impossible without the research. As a player, it is up to you to decide what you want to implement or not. If you aren't playing good people, you won't get better, period. This isn't exactly a radical idea. I've got some ideas as to how we can help eachother that I'll detail later on.
Our Community
Is a good one... perfect, no. We share flaws that are pretty much unavoidable to a certain extent on any forum. However, all of these could be minimized simply through player recognition of them and a concerted effort to correct our own mistakes.
Spam is in my opinion are most significant issue. It was terrible before Illinialex got things under control, from what I hear. For a period of time, it was very low, basically from when I got here to late February. Whatever the reason, the amount of spam has been increasing steadily since then. STOP F***ING SPAMMING... as much. A little spam is good to lighten the mood and for the lols. There is simply too much now. I spam, I admit this, but I keep it to a minimum. There is no excuse for it. We have a chatroom. I'm actually glad Airgemini has been infracting people. We don't have a spam epidemic. If you want to see a board whose reputation is really hurt by their absurd spam, look at the Sonic boards. Funny guys, but WAAAAY too much spam. Lets not be like that.
Infighting has been a big issue as of late. I'm not gonna name names. Things have calmed down a lot, but this bs is probably one of the worst things a community has to deal with. Look at the Peach boards and the absolute insanity that went down there. Now, I have been guilty of this as well. I got extremely upset with Lonejedi and it took a little while to get that resolved. The point here is it was resolved. He and I apologized and I respect and like him, even though initially I really wanted him to stfu and gtfo. I was wrong, but it didn't disrupt the board in any long term way.
Level of activity is way less of an issue here than it used to be. We have an influx of new talent, and there are people consistently working on... whatever really.
Tech obsession vs. Rejection... that arguement is basically detailed already. I honestly don't really give a s*** about any criticism directed at me regarding that at this point... Unless its from Illinialex, who has actually put in more work testing than me. If something is useless, by all means say that you think so, but avoid blanket statements. Especially if you don't even know how to execute something. The Yoshi boards have a tech addiction, we don't.
Elitism. Ok, most of the frequent posters are guilty of this. On the other hand, people say stupid crap on an almost constant basis. We obviously aren't the absurdly elitist Marth boards or tactical board a****** argument junkies. Mostly, we all need to be nicer to Woodman. I'm guilty simply by not trying prevent all the insults. He's good. So is rinoh. Woody: edit the things you write. You will be respected literally 10000x more, in other words, the amount you deserve.
Practice Practice Practice:
Jiggs dittos are crap. Borderline useless. I've learned infinitely more playing Airgemini's Peach on a red connection than playing anyone's Jiggs. Why? Well, for one thing, I might actually play against a Peach in tourney. And Air is legit. I could wifi John but it really wouldn't be fair (PUN!). He beats me the majority of the time we play. The margins are smaller and smaller, but he is still winning. And offline I am so much better against Peach now.
Most of us have other mains or secondaries. While Lone did own my Lucas last time we played, I usually win any Jiggs vs. Lucas match. The same is true with MK vs. Jiggs. Or how I lose to G-regs Samus. But I'm beating GWs now, because I've played so many of those f***ers. Its a terrible matchup, but I know it well enough that I can, with difficulty, overcome that.
My point. Use your other characters more often, especially if its GW or any tourney viable character. The experience is much more useful than a rollout lagfest. And try to play people with better connections, it makes a big difference for Jiggs. The AiB ladder is your friend (OMG was Lonejedi right about that).
We should get some kind of practice routine, idk, thoughts.
