Dobs1007
Smash Ace
So true Cactuar once said to me "Props for playing Samus"Also good stuff Hugo coming back strong
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My Comeback, thoughts, and analysis of Samus and the Metagame
- Thread starter HugS™
- Start date
So true Cactuar once said to me "Props for playing Samus"Also good stuff Hugo coming back strong
GreatFox64
Smash Journeyman
an alternative to trick #1 is short hopping -> dair. it obliterates the reflected missile and allows follow-up.
edgeluca
Smash Lord
We all know and use this. DO IT HUGO
Bullet Bill
Smash Master
Ok so I'm about to go back to school tomorrow and instead of getting good rest I'm writing on the Samus boards, but for good reason.
So as some of you have heard, I'm returning to Melee. I haven't quit Brawl, but I'm most definitely focusing completely on my Melee game atm.
I had 3 questions when I decided to come back. And they were:
1. Am I capable of handling the current metagame?
2. Is Samus capable of handling the current metagame?
3. Can I become better than I ever was?
Through my observations and experiences, I answered all three questions with a resounding "yes".
I'll address each question in depth here:
1.Not to brag, but there are styles that are truly timeless in this game, and I was fortunate enough to have created one of them. For every new strategy that someone threw at me, I answered back. Perhaps not as quickly as desired due to my inability to play as fluently as I used to but, I certainly know I could deal with everything new.
2. Samus lived up to what I felt all along. Samus is fully capable of delivering an answer to everything she is dealt. This game is beautiful in that respect, and Samus is a character representative of that beauty. Sure, people now wiggle out of upB's a lot, have crazy angles to recover with, developed anti shield pressure strategies, but no matter. There were solutions to all these problems, and I will explain some at the end of this.
3. I can certainly become better than I was under the following condition:
- I continue caring about getting better
So far, so good.
And there are 2 big reasons for why I feel this way.
- I always had notions of ways to improve my game, even while I was in my prime. However, the metagame never called for it. I was a product of the community, and it functioned like an economy would; If there was no demand for improvement, I wouldn't supply it. Similarily, improvement is now demanded of me, so I supply it.
- My long break allowed me to part with bad habits. Because I have been "re-virginized" to melee, I am starting from scratch, fresh, uninfluenced by anything but my own thoughts. On top of that, I have my experience to build on, so I could skip much experimentation and dead ends.
________________________________________
New/Relived Tricks and Strategies
Now on to the fun stuff. My ideas on how to improve myself, including strategic analysis and brand new tactics:
I'll start with the new tricks. If you already do these things, don't bother posting about how you've been doing it "forever". I have never seen these tricks done by a Samus in tournament, and if it has been done, you haven't been successful enough with her to claim any kind of superiority over anyone, especially me. So be happy you discovered it, but keep it to yourself please. You can brag, but don't be condescending about it.
Trick #1
Canceling reflected missiles to punish.
How it works: Basically, Samus's best approach method involves missile canceling in order to zone in on your opponent. There need not always be a follow up, but you usually end up closing in.
When fighting a falco/fox, the 2 most popular characters in the metagame, reflectors essentially nullify our main approach. But then, by accident, I found a solution to this problem.
You can missile cancel, dash forward, then dash attack the reflected missile. There's not much novelty to that, it's been known by some people here and there. BUT, the best tricks are the most practical, and this has a practicality to it.
When you cancel the reflected missile with a dash attack, you are immediately free to do what you'd like, and when fox/falco reflect a missile, they are in reflection stun. They cannot shield, sidestep, or even jump cancel their shine. You are completely free to dsmash/dtilt/ftilt/and fsmash. There are properties of the shine that i'm not too sure of, but I hypothesized the following:
- There are 2 modes for shining. Reflection mode and offensive mode. When neutral, as in nothing hits the shine, both modes can be jump canceled immediately. But when a reflection occurs immediately after spacies are able to reflect, Fox/falco are stuck in reflect mode which causes tons of lag.
However, if a shine is allowed to be out for a while, it enters offensive mode, where even after a reflection the spacie is able to jump out quickly.
Naturally, you enter offensive mode the moment you shine as an attack. But if not, you enter this mode sometime after you have the shine out for a while.
That was a whole hypothesis based on observation. I invite anyone to test it and prove it wrong or right.
Trick #2
A character cannot tech/recover after tumbling to the ground after an upB before you can punish him.
Basically, if you up B a character and it doesn't break out in time and manages to hit the floor, you can punish after your up B lag with your quickest moves below 7 frames of start up time. That includes dsmash, dtilt, ftilt, upB, and a few others.
That ALSO means that if you upB a character above one of the lower platforms and you see he won't break out, feel free to land ON TOP of the platform and punish, rather than trying to land below the platform to be safe. Keep in mind, the lower platforms are closest to the ledge, so it brings about edgeguard opportunities.
Also, keep in mind that you need not attack a character from the ground with your upB. You can intercept them from the air, making it harder for them to break out, and giving this a higher chance to succeed.
Once again, test test test!
General Strategy Improvements
1. Dtilt > Dsmash
I've learned to try and discontinue my use of Dsmash as punishment at low percentages. Dsmash is the quickest smash attack, and it is definitely strong. However, good DI prevents most follow ups.
Dtilt is EXACTLY as fast as dsmash, frame for frame, and it deals similar damage with the added ability to follow up. There's absolutely no reason to use Dsmash instead of Dtilt other than an inability to do so.
So I'm learning; Marth fsmashes my shield at low %, I wavedash out to dtilt.
Fox usmashes my shield, wavedash out to dtilt. Etc etc.
2. Shield Dash Spacing Calibration
This is something I've always done but wasn't exactly aware of until the need came for me to actually think about using it again.
It's a bit complicated, but bare with me.
Basically, you dash dance, but you shield in between to calibrate your spacing...
This game is fast, it's F***ING fast, so it is simply unwise to stand still and react in order to space properly. And it's too easy to approach a still opponent with all the offensive options given to us in this game.
Dash dancing solves this problem, but really, dash dancing is meant for characters with fast falling abilities and great short hopping games. Samus/peach/jiggs don't really have that. So peach spaces by floating, and jiggs spaces by WOPing and multi jumping. So what does Samus do?
She shield dashes.
What that means is while I'm dash dancing, the moment an approach is coming from my opponent, I shield to stop myself at the appropriate distance. Afterwords, it's a matter of choosing wavedashing/jumping out/sidestepping/holding shield/upBing whatever.
The point is, I'm spaced properly all while constantly moving to make it Harder for my opponent to space correctly himself.
I cannot stress enough how important it is to be constantly moving when playing the zoning/defensive game.
And for more advantageous dash spacing, you can also cancel the end of dashes by crouching instead of shielding to do an immediate "A" attack. Keep in mind though, you cannot crouch cancel the dash animation, so you must wait to be able to crouch. So use both appropriately for proper spacing.
Of all things i've written here, that's my most vital advice, as I see improper spacing as being the biggest problem for samus mains, and proper spacing being one of my best traits. This is one of the ways I do it.
______________________________________________________________
If you've read all of this, congrats, you've managed to learn something new with Samus, and are on your way to bringing her to levels she deserves to be at.
So that's my conclusion to this essay, you've all read enough
wow, what a good read. Rly good advice as well!
. It's great to see not only you doing very well at samus in tournaments but also something positive being said about non top 5 characters. I'll def have to try and implement some of this stuff when I play samus
forward
Smash Champion
HugS: I have a hard time dealing with Fox, and I think it's mostly because of his jump. It's so fast, and it seems like if he jumps over a jab, f tilt, or d tilt, then he gets a dair > shine > up smash. When I get Fox in his shield, what is the safest option to counter jumping? I know nair works, but it is not very safe.
Trick #3, are you saying after I up b fox/falco/falcon that I land to where they land, and hit them with d smash/ d tilt? That sounds so ****.
I sometimes have a hard time setting up max distance spacing on a jab and I'm beginning to think it's because I do WD into jab, so instead I'm going to use dash > crouch > jab to set it up. Which leads me to the next idea that for when you are fairly close to the enemy, WD is not a very good idea unless you are using it to escape from that spacing. Even then, that is probably not a good idea because up close is where Samus is most dangerous. WD should instead be used when you are far away from the opponent to quickly close the space, or to avoid a long range approach from the opponent.
Trick #3, are you saying after I up b fox/falco/falcon that I land to where they land, and hit them with d smash/ d tilt? That sounds so ****.
I sometimes have a hard time setting up max distance spacing on a jab and I'm beginning to think it's because I do WD into jab, so instead I'm going to use dash > crouch > jab to set it up. Which leads me to the next idea that for when you are fairly close to the enemy, WD is not a very good idea unless you are using it to escape from that spacing. Even then, that is probably not a good idea because up close is where Samus is most dangerous. WD should instead be used when you are far away from the opponent to quickly close the space, or to avoid a long range approach from the opponent.
Pi
Smash Hero
if he's jumping out of shield, and you're jabbing, you should have time to UB him if he jumps over you. if he jumps to retreat idk what you can do aside from predict it.
about trick #3, if you BOTH land on a platform after your UB (from the ground), and they don't jump/wiggle out of the hitstun, and are forced to tech, you are able to get a hit off if you fastfall your UB.
but lets say you ub them on FD and you both fall to the ground, i think there is too much time for you to hit them, unless they just tumble (but mostly they will jump and try to come down after you)
remember that you can vary your WD distance, aside from WD you can always walk, or pivot jab which i've been experimenting with. it's up to you, but i've never had problems spacing with WD
not hugs but figured i'd offer somethin
zDuck
Smash Journeyman
i up-B fox/falco on FD but when i'm coming back down i get naired/baired if they fall down in the direction i'm going, how do i prevent this?
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
Play Version 1 of Melee lol =)
Geist
Smash Master
Try hitting them until the screw attack's last hitbox, it sends them a bit farther than the rest of them. Also, FF asap, practice to get the timing down. FD isn't the best stage to be facing spacies, so ban it (if you have the option)
lololololol
that's definetly how I roll my melee style
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
FD is not a bad stage for Samus against spacies. There's no need to ban it unless the person doesn't like using Samus on FD for some reason.
Pi
Smash Hero
vs spacies I'm confident on BF and FD
They're quicker but BF jews their recovery and FD forces a one dimensional approach pretty much.
As well as taking away some combo's that the spacies use platforms for
They're quicker but BF jews their recovery and FD forces a one dimensional approach pretty much.
As well as taking away some combo's that the spacies use platforms for
Geist
Smash Master
ehhhh
I get ***** without platforms. I guess thats just me then.
I get ***** without platforms. I guess thats just me then.
edgeluca
Smash Lord
Yeah, I agree that FD and BF are good. As long as its not FoD though.
Geist
Smash Master
Aw I <3 FoD. I find the changing platforms interfere less with me than it seems it does other people, plus recovery is awesome. Other stages are still better.
But I still don't enjoy FD.
But I still don't enjoy FD.
TheLifeRuiner
Smash Lord
i think the changing platforms thing is a big john
i know this guy who plays falcon
and he loves FoD
he's not some noob either
SMOKE DA 2 JOINTZZZZ
i know this guy who plays falcon
and he loves FoD
he's not some noob either
SMOKE DA 2 JOINTZZZZ
Geist
Smash Master
I knew a **** falcon who killed sons on FoD. He stopped playing but w.e. I like it because it forces you to mix things up.
But yeah FoD johns.
But yeah FoD johns.
ES Lite
The Real Slim Shady
I always pick FD when i play.
i dunno why i just hate all the other stages.
i dunno why i just hate all the other stages.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
You and your brother need to come to my crib for a weekend or at least go to a tournament I attend so I can continue training your sexy samus.
My Samus helped me win a teams tournament yesterday =)
THE RED SPARROW
Smash Lord
So HugS, what's your overview of your recent match with M2K's Marth?
Pi
Smash Hero
yes please
did you get more friendlies in with his marth
or were you mad that he didn't go marth again?
i would be mad
**** that
i'm all about that sodium
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
Marth definitely has the advantage by alot against Samus but its not that bad. Well for me anyways.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
"A lot" of an advantage sounds pretty bad to me ...
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
Thats why I said its not that bad FOR ME lol.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Message taken.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
M2K was switching to Sheik for every second match anyway, even when he won the first ones with Marth lol. Anyway, HugS should practice changing up his playing style against Marth.
I don't have marth practice to figure out how to play it. And i don't fully trust how other samus players play it, cuz I feel i'd beat any marth that another samus can beat.
It's a top marth problem, not a regular marth problem. Socal needs a Marth lol.
It's a top marth problem, not a regular marth problem. Socal needs a Marth lol.
Pi
Smash Hero
I'll take this response over "marth ***** samus, unwinnable, counterpick time"
TheLifeRuiner
Smash Lord
someone get ken back
Nah it's just I get a lot of judgment for my marth game, when I really haven't heard of any other samus players taking out good marths that I haven't taken out myself.
Like even m2k says "so and so" are better at the matchup than HugS.
But they don't beat him either. I don't think they beat HBK in tournament either. Like is it just that they get closer sometimes? I mean I know alukard told me once that you can't outspace a Marth, that you gotta get in close. I got it, but then what? In closing that distance you leave yourself open to all kinds of damage. Without a super reliable grab, I don't see this as the optimal strategy unless there's more to it.
I mean does anyone got a video of how a samus should play a marth? One vs a top level marth or a marth I haven't beaten already?
I feel if I could just get that experience, even just a top 10 marth, I could get the match down clean. The only marth that gave us that kind of opportunity was Ken's, but he was too stingy to play with anyone, including myself. So I never picked up match up strategy.
Like even m2k says "so and so" are better at the matchup than HugS.
But they don't beat him either. I don't think they beat HBK in tournament either. Like is it just that they get closer sometimes? I mean I know alukard told me once that you can't outspace a Marth, that you gotta get in close. I got it, but then what? In closing that distance you leave yourself open to all kinds of damage. Without a super reliable grab, I don't see this as the optimal strategy unless there's more to it.
I mean does anyone got a video of how a samus should play a marth? One vs a top level marth or a marth I haven't beaten already?
I feel if I could just get that experience, even just a top 10 marth, I could get the match down clean. The only marth that gave us that kind of opportunity was Ken's, but he was too stingy to play with anyone, including myself. So I never picked up match up strategy.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
So you don't trust how my Samus plays against Marth?
My Samus goes even with M2K's Marth. He hates it whenever I grab him, which is alot lol.
DJ, your samus does not go even with m2k's marth. I'm not talking about friendlies.
You and M2k's marth are not tied in sets. However, if he has really chosen not to ever play Marth against your Samus in tournament, then we can't really assume that you would go even with it when it counts.
What other marths have you beaten? Which have you lost to as samus? In tournament.
Within the last 3 years, I think i've only lost to Ken and M2k for marths. Though I haven't fought against many other top marths.
I could be wrong about this statistic, it slips my memory.
You and M2k's marth are not tied in sets. However, if he has really chosen not to ever play Marth against your Samus in tournament, then we can't really assume that you would go even with it when it counts.
What other marths have you beaten? Which have you lost to as samus? In tournament.
Within the last 3 years, I think i've only lost to Ken and M2k for marths. Though I haven't fought against many other top marths.
I could be wrong about this statistic, it slips my memory.
GreatFox64
Smash Journeyman
hugo, try wavedashing in (out of shield) and up-b'ing immediately. it'll punish them for trying to grab. obviously it wont work everytime. but mix it up and i'm sure it'll catch them off guard.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
Forget it.
Dobs1007
Smash Ace
What about Falcomist? For me I personally hate the Marth matchup. Though only real good Marth I got to face was Cactuar and he just kept hitting me...
Pi
Smash Hero
Well first of all
Ban FD vs. marth
Even though I enjoy the fight there, it's not prime territory for samus to be fighting someone who can outspace her.
Marth is like the falcon matchup, only you don't even benefit from staying on the ground as much.
Unfortunately you do have to wait for the marth to mess up, though it isn't as bad as that sounds, a mess up could be fairing too early, throwing out 1 move that misses (even a jab can allow you to **** up his spacing).
You need to stay on eye level with marth if he's in wavedash -> dash attack/ftilt range. Yea, it's big.
If the marth see's you go into the air, and they are on the ground, they are in a great position. This is why I like platforms, it allows you to be in the -air-, but still mobile. Also this is why I'm liking SHFFM (seriously, it's a viable tech.), it's the fastest possible way to get a missile out and be back on the ground with no lag, if allows you to fire missiles in a smaller area.
Other than that, standing missiles, charged shots, they all work, marth shouldn't want to approach from the air, his aerial maneuverability aint so great, and his shield pressure at worse you can WD away from and reset the spacing.
Ideally the marth should be approaching you, standing missiles, uncharged shots, if you can get a save missile cancel off okay as well, wave dash in and out as a pseudo DD camp, throw out some Ftilts as bait, he needs to come in.
When the marth does come in there are responses to most of what he comes in with. Obviously if he comes in with a laggy attack (ftilt, fsmash, dash attack) the standard wd OoS punish is viable.
What I like to do, is when I know the marth is coming in and not going to just shield, I dash attack them, in my experience it surprises them because since you haven't been approaching, they are deciding to, and are prepared to catch you with a spaced something, so when you WD -> dash attack them it closes a lot of distance and doesn't allow for time to react. Why Dash attack over Ftilt? Cause Ftilt you don't move forward, yea Ftilt is a great move, and it has it's uses in this matchup, but since he can outspace you, you really have to rely on surprises. Of course if Ftilting is working, use it.
If the marth approaches from the air, your main goal is to mess up his spacing, if he lands a space fair on your shield you're gonna get shield poked or be forced to WD away.
Personally, I know the lag time on like all of marths aerials, and if he throws one out that misses, you can punish him, unless he's like right near the ground. The smart thing for marths to do, if you're not in range, is to wait until they aerial, to counter this you WD in and shield, then UB them. Also if you are in a position, and you know they are waiting, jump and attack them first.
There are a **** ton of mind games that need to happen in this matchup. You have to be reckless and extremely safe at the same time. The only guaranteed hits you're going to get on marth is if he throws out a move that you shield/doesn't hit, which I see less and less of the higher level marth's I play.
Also don't go above marth, just don't do it, if he has you in the air, air dodge into him, yea you'll probably get hit but he won't be able to combo out of it, try to air dodge down through him.
Ban FD vs. marth
Even though I enjoy the fight there, it's not prime territory for samus to be fighting someone who can outspace her.
Marth is like the falcon matchup, only you don't even benefit from staying on the ground as much.
Unfortunately you do have to wait for the marth to mess up, though it isn't as bad as that sounds, a mess up could be fairing too early, throwing out 1 move that misses (even a jab can allow you to **** up his spacing).
You need to stay on eye level with marth if he's in wavedash -> dash attack/ftilt range. Yea, it's big.
If the marth see's you go into the air, and they are on the ground, they are in a great position. This is why I like platforms, it allows you to be in the -air-, but still mobile. Also this is why I'm liking SHFFM (seriously, it's a viable tech.), it's the fastest possible way to get a missile out and be back on the ground with no lag, if allows you to fire missiles in a smaller area.
Other than that, standing missiles, charged shots, they all work, marth shouldn't want to approach from the air, his aerial maneuverability aint so great, and his shield pressure at worse you can WD away from and reset the spacing.
Ideally the marth should be approaching you, standing missiles, uncharged shots, if you can get a save missile cancel off okay as well, wave dash in and out as a pseudo DD camp, throw out some Ftilts as bait, he needs to come in.
When the marth does come in there are responses to most of what he comes in with. Obviously if he comes in with a laggy attack (ftilt, fsmash, dash attack) the standard wd OoS punish is viable.
What I like to do, is when I know the marth is coming in and not going to just shield, I dash attack them, in my experience it surprises them because since you haven't been approaching, they are deciding to, and are prepared to catch you with a spaced something, so when you WD -> dash attack them it closes a lot of distance and doesn't allow for time to react. Why Dash attack over Ftilt? Cause Ftilt you don't move forward, yea Ftilt is a great move, and it has it's uses in this matchup, but since he can outspace you, you really have to rely on surprises. Of course if Ftilting is working, use it.
If the marth approaches from the air, your main goal is to mess up his spacing, if he lands a space fair on your shield you're gonna get shield poked or be forced to WD away.
Personally, I know the lag time on like all of marths aerials, and if he throws one out that misses, you can punish him, unless he's like right near the ground. The smart thing for marths to do, if you're not in range, is to wait until they aerial, to counter this you WD in and shield, then UB them. Also if you are in a position, and you know they are waiting, jump and attack them first.
There are a **** ton of mind games that need to happen in this matchup. You have to be reckless and extremely safe at the same time. The only guaranteed hits you're going to get on marth is if he throws out a move that you shield/doesn't hit, which I see less and less of the higher level marth's I play.
Also don't go above marth, just don't do it, if he has you in the air, air dodge into him, yea you'll probably get hit but he won't be able to combo out of it, try to air dodge down through him.
Dobs1007
Smash Ace
Thanks matchup is just tough imo and Cactuar is 100x better then me I know IHSB said similar thing to my viewpoint on matchup after he faced PC Chris using marth at Pound 4. Paraphrase if marth hits you u just get comboed and a smart player using Marth will just out gay you...
Dobs1007
Smash Ace
Opps double post so shout-out to my fell Samus Players