Moveset speculation

[Chiroz]

Personally I kind of doubt that. It mostly seems to be 2 forms, at least from what we know, and there isn't really charging, just takes a bit more time to come out. I think a quick tap will do the first level. Of course, i dont know for sure, but it's what makes most sense to me.



I'm just glad that sizzle is in the game, but yeah maybe there's two forms as well. Even if it's just the pillar we saw, I'm glad that it makes a hazard on the ground, it could be really useful, especially with all the other options. (assuming that's what it is)

I just watched the beefy video, and i'm surprised they put something that has 2 buffs in it as a side special. They added a note in the comments that it could be neutral special instead, but it's too bad they didnt say that in the video, oh well. There's quite a bit of stuff that we'll know once sakurai reveals how it all works anyway.

Frizz has been shown to have 3 levels, and I am like 99% certain that they do charge, I can't wait to show my video on specials as I talk about specifically how you can tell how much charge he has and the frame data of uncharged move plus what frame charging starts. My friend is taking too long adding text to the video, lol.

 

[Teeb147]

I've seen a few places now where they think that the spells are moves you can swap, kind of like mii fighters. I think that it makes sense to some degree because people arent used to seeing a character that has so many moves in one match, but i dont think they have a mechanic for being able to do that on the character select screen or something, so I dont think it's 'customizing', though i think that could be neat as well. Of course, not as much as all in one match

Frizz has been shown to have 3 levels, and I am like 99% certain that they do charge, I can't wait to show my video on specials as I talk about specifically how you can tell how much charge he has and the frame data of uncharged move plus what frame charging starts. My friend is taking too long adding text to the video, lol.

I'm sure they have charge levels. 2 for sure, 3 maybe. But what I mean is that I really dont think you have to charge them like the others others. It probably uses more mp and just has a bit more cast time.

 

[Chiroz]

I've seen a few places now where they think that the spells are moves you can swap, kind of like mii fighters. I think that it makes sense to some degree because people arent used to seeing a character that has so many moves in one match, but i dont think they have a mechanic for being able to do that on the character select screen or something, so I dont think it's 'customizing', though i think that could be neat as well. Of course, not as much as all in one match



I'm sure they have charge levels. 2 for sure, 3 maybe. But what I mean is that I really dont think you have to charge them like the others others. It probably uses more mp and just has a bit more cast time.

How would you choose between level 1, 2 and 3 Frizz for example. So I will just start by saying what is on the video, the circles around The Hero denote charge level. If you look at when he casts Frizz level 1, Zap level 2 or Woosh level 2, he has circles slowly forming around him. If you look frame by frame when he releases Frizz level 1, his hand jump position to a completely new place when he "releases" the charge, not only that but the circles instantly complete and glow when he releases the charge.

If you look at when he casts Frizz level 3, the circles just glow because they are already complete, also the hand doesn't jump anywhere because his hand was already at the position of "max charge", which leads to believe that as you charge Frizz he will slowly move his hand upwards to that position but if you release it before max charge he will just jump to that frame.

Also, circles get about 1/4th done and he still casts level 1 Frizz (unless there are more than 3 levels of Frizz and that is level 2 which I doubt) which would mean that his "charge" works like Robin, where there are certain points where the spell "levels up". When he casts Zap level 2 and Woosh level 2, the circles are more than halfway done, when he casts Frizz level 3 the circles are completed.

My theory is that <halfway = level 1. Full = Level 3. >Halfway & <Full = Level 2. Also if you look at Frizz Level 3, he has the circles completed but he holds it for like 20 frames, which to me implies that you can hold max charge for some time before releasing it (think of Link's arrows).



I don't think higher levels will cost more MP, I think that by casting a higher level you're increasing your chances of completely wasting your MP with the longer startup which allows your opponent to evade it much easier or hit you before you cast it and that's probably "balanced" enough.

 

[Teeb147]

How would you choose between level 1, 2 and 3 Frizz for example. So I will just start by saying what is on the video, the circles around The Hero denote charge level. If you look at when he casts Frizz level 1, Zap level 2 or Woosh level 2, he has circles slowly forming around him. If you look frame by frame when he releases Frizz level 1, his hand jump position to a completely new place when he "releases" the charge, not only that but the circles instantly complete and glow when he releases the charge.

If you look at when he casts Frizz level 3, the circles just glow because they are already complete, also the hand doesn't jump anywhere because his hand was already at the position of "max charge", which leads to believe that as you charge Frizz he will slowly move his hand upwards to that position but if you release it before max charge he will just jump to that frame.

Also, circles get about 1/4th done and he still casts level 1 Frizz (unless there are more than 3 levels of Frizz and that is level 2 which I doubt) which would mean that his "charge" works like Robin, where there are certain points where the spell "levels up". When he casts Zap level 2 and Woosh level 2, the circles are more than halfway done, when he casts Frizz level 3 the circles are completed.

My theory is that <halfway = level 1. Full = Level 3. >Halfway & <Full = Level 2. Also if you look at Frizz Level 3, he has the circles completed but he holds it for like 20 frames, which to me implies that you can hold max charge for some time before releasing it (think of Link's arrows).



I don't think higher levels will cost more MP, I think that by casting a higher level you're increasing your chances of completely wasting your MP with the longer startup which allows your opponent to evade it much easier or hit you before you cast it and that's probably "balanced" enough.

Like I said, I agree that there's charge levels. I'm just not convinced that it has to do with charging it like we're used to. I think it could easily be different. I dont know exactly how, but if it's just holding the button on an option then that's fine. We still dont know if the menu comes up by pressing once or if we have to hold it. I could easily see it going either way, though considering how quick it seems to be with zap (lvl1), my thought is that we dont have to press twice for the default move (just one quick tap).

I think there would be changes in animation anyway, so i wouldn't read too much into positions to mean there was charging done manually.
I could take a look at those 20 frames youre talking about but my thought was just that it takes longer for cast time on those levels.

Anyway, a lot of it is specualtion, some things are hard to tell exactly for now.

 

[Chiroz]

Like I said, I agree that there's charge levels. I'm just not convinced that it has to do with charging it like we're used to. I think it could easily be different. I dont know exactly how, but if it's just holding the button on an option then that's fine. We still dont know if the menu comes up by pressing once or if we have to hold it. I could easily see it going either way, though considering how quick it seems to be with zap (lvl1), my thought is that we dont have to press twice for the default move (just one quick tap).

I think there would be changes in animation anyway, so i wouldn't read too much into positions to mean there was charging done manually.
I could take a look at those 20 frames youre talking about but my thought was just that it takes longer for cast time on those levels.

Anyway, a lot of it is specualtion, some things are hard to tell exactly for now.

I mean, Robin's Thunder which is frame 11 (faster than what Zap will be) is also a double tap. Most Charge Balls have comparable startup to what Zap does if you double tap really quickly.

If the charging was automatic there would be no reason to have a jump in animation, you could have the animation play out smoothly from the moment you input the move to the moment the lag ends. Why would there be a weird jump mid way through the animation?

I agree some things are hard to tell, but charging is something I am pretty certain about and it's the one thing I think many people haven't noticed in the video. I mean my question would be, why do the circles slowly fill yet all of a sudden get filled as soon as the animation jumps, as opposed to them filling up completely in a quicker fashion for lower levels of the spell and the animation not jumping at all.

Another hint is that if you look at Zap level 1 at the end of the video, The Hero doesn't fill the circles at all, they just appear completed and glowing and surprisingly the frame on which the circles appear completed and glowing is the exact frame on which the Level 2 Zap started filling the circles and the sword started to glow. This implies to me that that level 1 Zap released the attack frame 1 (didn't charge a single frame).

 

[Teeb147]

I mean, Robin's Thunder which is frame 11 (faster than what Zap will be) is also a double tap. Most Charge Balls have comparable startup to what Zap does if you double tap really quickly.

If the charging was automatic there would be no reason to have a jump in animation, you could have the animation play out smoothly from the moment you input the move to the moment the lag ends. Why would there be a weird jump mid way through the animation?

I agree some things are hard to tell, but charging is something I am pretty certain about and it's the one thing I think many people haven't noticed in the video. I mean my question would be, why do the circles slowly fill yet all of a sudden get filled as soon as the animation jumps, as opposed to them filling up completely in a quicker fashion for lower levels of the spell and the animation not jumping at all.

Another hint is that if you look at Zap level 1 at the end of the video, The Hero doesn't fill the circles at all, they just appear completed and glowing and surprisingly the frame on which the circles appear completed and glowing is the exact frame on which the Level 2 Zap started filling the circles and the sword started to glow. This implies to me that that level 1 Zap released the attack frame 1 (didn't charge a single frame).

I dont think there's a weird jump, not more than some other moves, but if you talked about it in your video then i can check it out. And i think it still makes sense for the circles not to be filled since there's other levels. It doesnt mean too much more by itself. It could end up like that too tho.

I dont think you can be certain about it with what we have, is the thing. Some things are better to be stated as speuclation.

 

[Chiroz]

I dont think there's a weird jump, not more than some other moves, but if you talked about it in your video then i can check it out. And i think it still makes sense for the circles not to be filled since there's other levels. It doesnt mean too much more by itself. It could end up like that too tho.

I dont think you can be certain about it with what we have, is the thing. Some things are better to be stated as speuclation.

I might just be overlooking some, but I don't remember a single move in Smash which has an animation jump midway through that doesn't involve player input in some way. Could you refer me to one?

Also, if the point of the slowly filling circles is to get to half way then why have it jump to being full all of a sudden as opposed to leaving them halfway.

Yea, I get you, you're right. it's still speculation, but if someone was to ask me about the thing I am most sure about in terms of Hero speculation I would choose "circles denote charge time" over there are 4 menus or any other theory for example, just because of the things I've seen in the trailer.

 

[Teeb147]

I might just be overlooking some, but I don't remember a single move in Smash which has an animation jump midway through that doesn't involve player input in some way. Could you refer me to one?

Also, if the point of the slowly filling circles is to get to half way then why have it jump to being full all of a sudden as opposed to leaving them halfway.

Yea, I get you, you're right. it's still speculation, but if someone was to ask me about the thing I am most sure about in terms of Hero speculation I would choose "circles denote charge time" over there are 4 menus or any other theory for example, just because of the things I've seen in the trailer.

I think that because it's a trailer, it's hard to tell exactly. And to me it doesn't really look like a jump, just different (fuller circle) animation for those levels of spells.

That said, I do think it can be like youre saying, easily enough, and I do like the idea of being able to charge all those spells, including woosh
So, let's hope it's cool like that, ;p especially if it holds the charge.

I would say the thing im most sure about is what they show more clearly. For the rest I still think you have some very good ideas for how it could work , tho I dont know if I'd say it's the most likely for everything, but it definitely makes a lot of sense.


edit: I'm wondering if there is frizz like we thought of it tho, if it's the case

 

[Chiroz]

edit: I'm wondering if there is frizz like we thought of it tho, if it's the case

Yes, in the Japanese trailer he says the name of Frizz and Kafrizzle

 

[Teeb147]

Yes, in the Japanese trailer he says the name of Frizz and Kafrizzle

Ok. Well that's good, tho i might be curious to check if Sizzle really is on the menu we saw in japanese too.

If those moves can be charged, I have a hard time picturing both zap and frizz being chargeable, and both in the same menu. Feels a bit complicated.

 

[Chiroz]

Ok. Well that's good, tho i might be curious to check if Sizzle really is on the menu we saw in japanese too.

If those moves can be charged, I have a hard time picturing both zap and frizz being chargeable, and both in the same menu. Feels a bit complicated.

Does anyone know how to read japanese? Lol

Actually I got a site with the names written, I can just compare them, brb.

 

[Teeb147]

Does anyone know how to read japanese? Lol

Nvm it's the same. ベギラマ is what sizzle is called in japanese. (and that's what shows for the menu in the trailer)

Which makes me wonder about frizz and zap like i said..

 

[Chiroz]

Nvm it's the same. ベギラマ is what sizzle is called in japanese. (and that's what shows for the menu in the trailer)

Which makes me wonder about frizz and zap like i said..

I don't see what would be different from both being chargeable. After you select one of them as your spell you need to tap the move a second time to release it. You cannot open up the menu while the move is charging, you can only release it just like you can't throw a Missile with Samus while Charge Shot is charging, only release Charge Shot.

I am also assuming that the default spell for each special changes to the last spell you used or hovered over on the menu (because I also theorize you'll be able to cancel the menu with shield or jump, but there's no proof of this, mostly just balancing. If you can't cancel the thinking animation without casting a spell then that will mean a lot of bad things for The Hero) which means that you can have Zap or Frizz as your "quick cast spell" and cast them super quickly by double tapping.

 

[Teeb147]

I don't see what would be different from both being chargeable. After you select one of them as your spell you need to tap the move a second time to release it. You cannot open up the menu while the move is charging, you can only release it just like you can't throw a Missile with Samus while Charge Shot is charging, only release Charge Shot.

I am also assuming that the default spell for each special changes to the last spell you used or hovered over on the menu (because I also theorize you'll be able to cancel the menu with shield or jump, but there's no proof of this, mostly just balancing. If you can't cancel the thinking animation without casting a spell then that will mean a lot of bad things for The Hero) which means that you can have Zap or Frizz as your "quick cast spell" and cast them super quickly by double tapping.

Oof, no i really dont expect it to change the default when you select a move. That would complicate things way too much. To quickly use (and change) moves on the fly you'd have to know in what order they replace one another and it just seems like too much to know for new people wanting to play the character. It makes more sense that it's always the same order, to me at least.

I think the menu will be cancellable too, but anyway going back to zap and frizz. I think zap would be the default spell (top of the menu), especially since sizzle is already the one for neutral-b.

If frizz had been there instead of sizzle, it could've made sense for chargeable moves (since sizzle could be down b), that they be the defaults. But now I'm even less convinced about them being manually chargeable. I just dont see side-b either not allowing other moves to be selected if youve started charging one, or for it to remember the charge of two different moves in the same menu.

Again it could be the case, but it just doesnt feel right, If sizzle had been on down b (and frizz instead of it), I would've thought it's a bit more straightforward. But as it is it just make it less likely that we know how it works to me.

 

[Chiroz]

Oof, no i really dont expect it to change the default when you select a move. That would complicate things way too much. To quickly use (and change) moves on the fly you'd have to know in what order they replace one another and it just seems like too much to know for new people wanting to play the character. It makes more sense that it's always the same order, to me at least.

I think the menu will be cancellable too, but anyway going back to zap and frizz. I think zap would be the default spell (top of the menu), especially since sizzle is already the one for neutral-b.

If frizz had been there instead of sizzle, it could've made sense for chargeable moves (since sizzle could be down b), that they be the defaults. But now I'm even less convinced about them being manually chargeable. I just dont see side-b either not allowing other moves to be selected if youve started charging one, or for it to remember the charge of two different moves in the same menu.

Again it could be the case, but it just doesnt feel right, If sizzle had been on down b (and frizz instead of it), I would've thought it's a bit more straightforward. But as it is it just make it less likely that we know how it works to me.

I don't think the moves will change order, I think your cursor will start where you left it. As in if you choose Snooze like in the trailer, anytime you perform that same special afterwards it will always be Snooze until the next time you open the menu, at which time the cursor will start on Snooze. It's the easiest way to allow people to perform the spells they want quickly and all you need to know is the order of the spells, which you would have to know anyways if the cursor didn't change either as you would need to know whether Snooze is 1, 2 or 3 clicks down to perform it again.

So it's the same learning curve as keeping the same move as default always, but it allows you to have an easier time casting the spells you want to cast.

I also don't think you can store charge. After you started charging a move you can only release it, you can't even cancel it. Think of Link's arrows.

I don't understand, it seems your disbelief is mostly from being a hard input (which it isn't, it's actually super simple but you might be thinking of another way to input the move that is much harder than what I myself am thinking about). But if not charging, how do you think the player chooses between Frizz level 1, 2 and 3 then?

 

[Teeb147]

I don't think the moves will change order, I think your cursor will start where you left it. As in if you choose Snooze like in the trailer, anytime you perform that same special afterwards it will always be Snooze until the next time you open the menu, at which time the cursor will start on Snooze. It's the easiest way to allow people to perform the spells they want quickly and all you need to know is the order of the spells, which you would have to know anyways if the cursor didn't change either as you would need to know whether Snooze is 1, 2 or 3 clicks down to perform it again.

So it's the same learning curve as keeping the same move as default always, but it allows you to have an easier time casting the spells you want to cast.

Considering that the other spells besides sizzle arent ones you'd use as often, I dont see the point of it changing position to them if you use them, that to me would mean having to always reopening the menu to go back to sizzle after using a buff/debuff.

Knowing that snooze would always just be b up b is easy enough by itself. (wrapping around to the bottom choice when on top)

 

[Chiroz]

Considering that the other spells besides sizzle arent ones you'd use as often, I dont see the point of it changing position to them if you use them, that to me would mean having to always reopening the menu to go back to sizzle after using a buff/debuff.

Knowing that snooze is just b up b is easy enough by itself. (wrapping around to the bottom choice when on top)

I edited my last message with some questions, but let me answer this first.

But you're talking about you wanting to use Sizzle more than the other moves. What if Sizzle ends up being mostly useless and Snooze is actually super good and you want Snooze to be your choice.

With storing the cursor, you would be able to go back to Sizzle quickly and cancel the thinking animation whenever you get half a second of breathing time (which if you don't you wouldn't even be able to cast the spell anyways).

Without storing the cursor certain moves would always have to pop up the menu which would hinder those moves a lot and hurt the "versatility" of the character very much. It would be way better for The Hero both competitively and casually for the cursor to be stored (casually because most people that aren't into competitive normally find that they like certain attacks more and want to perform those specific attacks way more than the others, so they'd probably prefer those spells to be easier to input/perform).

Also what if you're in an MU where you think Frizz is better than Zap (or viceversa) and you will be doing more of those, being forced to always go through opening the menu is suboptimal gameplay.



Edit: Also you seem to theorize that you always bring up the menu when tapping B and tapping B again selects the move which is something I doubt just because of the incredibly small amount of startup there is on some moves.

There is just too little startup for there to be a menu coming up on both Zap and Frizz in the trailer. It could be this way, but then you would have to be tapping buttons and directions incredibly fast every time you want to perform a special. It'd be very uncomfortable.

 

[Teeb147]

I edited my last message with some questions, but let me answer this first.

But you're talking about you wanting to use Sizzle more than the other moves. What if Sizzle ends up being mostly useless and Snooze is actually super good and you want Snooze to be your choice.

With storing the cursor, you would be able to go back to Sizzle quickly and cancel the thinking animation whenever you get half a second of breathing time (which if you don't you wouldn't even be able to cast the spell anyways).

Without storing the cursor certain moves would always have to pop up the menu which would hinder those moves a lot and hurt the "versatility" of the character very much. It would be way better for The Hero both competitively and casually for the cursor to be stored (casually because most people that aren't into competitive normally find that they like certain attacks more and want to perform those specific attacks way more than the others, so they'd probably prefer those spells to be easier to input/perform).

Also what if you're in an MU where you think Frizz is better than Zap (or viceversa) and you will be doing more of those, being forced to always go through opening the menu is suboptimal gameplay.

Snooze will be incredibly situational. It wont work on block and on people in the air, just like jiggly puff. And that makes it more of a finisher since there's sizzle which will (most likely) be incredibly good for putting something out on the field (like a hazard) which you can use to se up or box people in in a lot of situations.

It's more complicated to remember where your cursor is for quickly changing to another move, than always it being on top and remembering the pattern to quickly get to the moves you want.

Getting to the other moves that are more situational, or for buffing for a while, makes more sense for bring up the menu, and in whichever case you'd have to bring up the menu, so in both our cases it'll be an issue, since people will want to switch moves. Especially from buffs. You wont want a buff like oomph to stay there for easy access when you'll more likely use other spells before it runs out.

Staying on a move is much more (or as much) of a hurt on versatility, since youll have to open up the menu to change from it.

I can see what you mean in the case for zap and frizz, but i think both will be good in different situations, not for matchups.
That's my view on it anyway.


edit: I only just saw the extra stuff you posted. But i'll wait to reply about them.

 

[Chiroz]

Snooze will be incredibly situational. It wont work on block and on people in the air, just like jiggly puff. And that makes it more of a finisher since there's sizzle which will (most likely) be incredibly good for putting something out on the field (like a hazard) which you can use to se up or box people in in a lot of situations.

It's more complicated to remember where your cursor is for quickly changing to another move, than always it being on top and remembering the pattern to quickly get to the others.

Getting to the other moves that are used for certain cases, or for buffing for a while, makes more sense for bring up the menu, and in whichever case you'd have to bring up the menu, so in both our cases it'll be an issue, since people will switch moves. Especially from buffs. You wont want a buff like oomph to stay there for easy access when you'll more likely use other ones before it runs out.

Staying on a move is much more of a hurt on versatility, since youll have to open up the menu to change from it.

I can see what you mean in the case for zap and frizz, but i think both will be good in different situations, not for matchups.
That's my view on it anyway.

No you're wrong, staying on a move allows the player to choose how he is going to change his cursor. Staying on the top hinders versatility by making 12 moves have an artificially added startup time, so nerfing those 12 moves essentially. With the other way the player can choose which 12 moves to nerf and which 4 to eliminate startup on. This is not even theorizing (the "is it more versatile or not"), it's just how it would happen.

Yes, if the previous move was the one you use the most, you would have to change back but you changed knowing that it would change your cursor, you knew using that ability was worth changing your cursor and at any time you can change your cursor back. Whereas if you can't change your cursor, literally every time you want to cast the other 12 non default moves you will have extra startup and there is 0 you can do about it. If the menu takes 8 frames this means Zap will always have an extra 8 frames, and that's it, you just have to deal with it. It hinders versatility quite a bit.

You're arguing that allowing players to choose what their default move is is less versatile than having the defaults be forced by the game solely because you're thinking that Sizzle is the best option on the Neutral B menu.

Imagine Zoom being the default option on the Up-B menu, Zoom which has 30 frames of startup. Now all of the other moves, no matter if we had Marth's Up-B, have an added X frames of opening up the menu and now all of our Up-Bs are super slow and there's nothing we can do about it. Whereas if you can change your cursor you can choose the Marth Up-B as your default and now you have a frame 5 Up-B.

Also you're assuming a lot of Sizzle and a lot of Snooze. An example is, I'd rather have Mewtwo's Disable than Ganon's U-Tilt. You don't know how moves will end up, we haven't seen Sizzle.

And the fact about the cursor changing is it isn't as important for you to remember where the cursor is as you will be performing the move that you want most of the time, and as long as you remember the order (which you would have to anyways if the cursor didn't change), you know what is on top and below your cursor as well. It's much more forgiving for someone who doesn't main Hero, while also being much better competitively speaking for someone who does.



Obviously this is all speculation and it could go either way or even some way we aren't thinking about, but I would assume the Smash team actually thought about this character in a competitive environment and what would work or feel best for someone playing the character.

 

[shinhed-echi]

It's more complicated to remember where your cursor is for quickly changing to another move, than always it being on top and remembering the pattern to quickly get to the moves you want.

This, I cannot agree more.

You have no idea how much I hated that option in Pokémon. Which is why I always kept it off.
I’d rather “beep-beep-beep” a hundred times through the same menu than having to remember I left the cursor at the third slot.

 

[Teeb147]

No you're wrong, staying on a move allows the player to choose how he is going to change his cursor. Staying on the top hinders versatility by making 12 moves have an artificially added startup time, so nerfing those 12 moves essentially. With the other way the player can choose which 12 moves to nerf and which 4 to eliminate startup on. This is not even theorizing, it's how it happens.

Yes, if the previous move was the one you use the most, you would have to change back but you changed knowing that it would change your cursor, you knew using that ability was worth changing your cursor and at any time you can change your cursor back. Whereas if you can't change your cursor, literally every time you want to cast the other 12 non default moves you will have extra startup and there is 0 you can do about it. If the menu takes 8 frames this means Zap will always have an extra 8 frames, and that's it, you just have to deal with it. It hinders versatility quite a bit.

Also you're assuming a lot of Sizzle and a lot of Snooze. An example is, I'd rather have Mewtwo's Disable than Ganon's U-Tilt. You don't know how moves will end up, we haven't seen Sizzle.

And the fact about the cursor changing is it isn't as important for you to remember where the cursor is as you will be performing the move that you want most of the time, and as long as you remember the order (which you would have to anyways if the cursor didn't change), you know what is on top and below your cursor as well. It's much more forgiving for someone who doesn't main Hero, while also being much better competitively speaking for someone who does.

I dont like to debate, so I'm not going keep this going if youre going to be like that.

We're just specualting here. I'm not going to pretend to know how they designed all this when we dont know. We dont know. That's what i know, lol.
I dont like when people take speculation as if that's how it's going to be. We can talk about possible ideas, but that's it. (and some make sense for some things)

I dont think it would create extra startup, because the moves that count the most are the ones you'd want to use quickly. Sizzle and Zap fit that, and probably some others.

When you look at Zoom being used, he goes into the thinking animation for a bit, and i think it can easily be that zoom is not the first option and that someone would have to bring up the menu to use it. Maybe not, but that's just what i think makes sense for now. I could easily change my mind on that.

There's a few things you said that makes me think it could be a bit more like youre thinking, but I still think it's just one possibility.
I'm not convinced, but that's ok, they can make sense in how we think, and analyzing, but really we dont know, we need to see more details.

I'm going to leave it at that for now.

 

[Chiroz]

This, I cannot agree more.

You have no idea how much I hated that option in Pokémon. Which is why I always kept it off.
I’d rather “beep-beep-beep” a hundred times through the same menu than having to remember I left the cursor at the third slot.

It's different for a turned based game though, where performing attacks in a quick and also simple manner is not as important as in a fighting game. Having to beep-beep-beep through a menu 100 times in a match to cast your most used spell is probably more annoying than just remembering you need to beep-beep 5 times in a match when you use a situational one.

I dont like to debate, so I'm not going keep this going if youre going to be like that.

We're just specualting here. I'm not going to pretend to know how they designed all this when we dont know. We dont know. That's what i know, lol.
I dont like when people take speculation as if that's how it's going to be. We can talk about possible ideas, but that's it. (and some make sense for some things)

I dont think it would create extra startup, because the moves that count the most are the ones you'd want to use quickly. Sizzle and Zap fit that, and probably woosh as well.

When you look at Zoom being used, he goes into the thinking animation for a bit, and i think it can easily be that zoom is not the first option and that someone would have to bring up the menu to use it. Maybe not, but that's just what i think makes sense for now. I could easily change my mind on that.

There's a few things you said that makes me think it could be a bit more like youre thinking, but I still think it's just one possibility.
I'm not convinced, but that's ok, they can make sense in how we think, and analyzing, but really we dont know, we need to see more details.

I'm going to leave it at that for now.

I am sorry if I sounded like an asshole, and I am not trying to make speculation into "It's like this". When I said, it's not theorizing, I wasn't talking about your idea, your idea could very well be right and it could be how it works in game. I was moreso talking about the justifications for it.

Like say: "I dont think it would create extra startup, because the moves that count the most are the ones you'd want to use quickly. Sizzle and Zap fit that, and probably woosh as well."

Yes, it wouldn't create startup for the 4 moves that are set as default, but what I argued is that all other 12 moves would now have added startup, and that is not speculation or theorizing, that is just fact. IF your idea was the way it worked, then those 12 moves would forever be nerfed versions of what they could have been, even if the 4 chosen are in fact the best moves for each menu this would mean less versatility.

If those 4 are in fact the best ones for each menu, then whenever you cast a different spell, you would have to move your cursor back, equaling an amount of "extra startup" of (Different Moves Used * 2), but since those 4 are the most used spells that number would be low and all that extra startup would go towards niche or situational specials (plus you could frontload the startup by opening the menu when you have some breathing time, changing the cursor then closing the menu, thus eliminating the startup completely for when you actually need it).

Whereas if they aren't the best moves in the game and the cursor never changes, the amount of extra startup would be equal to (Different Moves Used), but in this case since those different moves are the best moves, this number would probably be higher. Not only that but the startup would now be added to your best spells as opposed to situational ones and there would be no way to frontload the startup, you would have to always go through that startup the moment you want to perform the special, thus no way to make it faster.



Also it's hard to believe that each list will have a default best spell for all MUs for all scenarios. Probably the best move on each list will change depending on the MU and depending on %s and as such it would make the Hero more versatile if he could decide to eliminate startup on certain specials depending on which MU he is fighting or at what % the opponent is at.



Anyways, sorry for continuing the debate after you said it was over. I will take my time out from the boards and be back when part 2 of my video is released. Sorry for any troubles.

 

[Teeb147]

Chiroz If youre going to make up a mechanic where someone can change the default, then why not think it possible that it can be done with another way (or button), instead of changing when it's used?

It could work but i think it shouldn't change just because someone uses a spell.
Of course, this is again all speculation. We dont know if there is a way it changes default or not. If there's a way, I think it's much better to be able to change it another way, so that someone could keep the default spell they want for quick access in any case.

 

[Jade_Rock]

It has to be storing cursor. Wanting sizzle after buffing may not even be the most optimal. I'd argue, more psych up(assuming tension stacks like in the games), oomph even more damage or snooze to sleep then smash would all be better than sizzle. Plus it'll let you stack psych up quickly which could be great considering what incineroar can do.

And having to select a recovery over and over(assuming menu's can be used in the air, I'd think you may die while recovering) would be very bad.

Edit: Also looking at the bounce portion of the trailer. We see hero casting bounce, standing and then using what looks like psych up. No thinking animation I think making the tap and hold theory with cursor storing more plausible.

 

[Chiroz]

Chiroz If youre going to make up a mechanic where someone can change the default, then why not think it possible that it can be done with another way (or button), instead of changing when it's used?

It could work but i think it shouldn't change just because someone uses a spell.
Of course, this is again all speculation. We dont know if there is a way it changes default or not. If there's a way, I think it's much better to be able to change it another way, so that someone could use a non-default spell without it changing to it.

It could very well be this way too. Although IDK how it would work. Like if you press A instead of releasing B then it stores the cursor? Could be and I see no real problem with it, but for some reason I doubt they'll do it that way.

 

[Teeb147]

It has to be storing cursor. Wanting sizzle after buffing may not even be the most optimal. I'd argue, more psych up(assuming tension stacks like in the games), oomph even more damage or snooze to sleep then smash would all be better than sizzle. Plus it'll let you stack psych up quickly which could be great considering what incineroar can do.

And having to select a recovery over and over(assuming menu's can be used in the air, I'd think you may die while recovering) would be very bad.

It's rare that you'll want a chance to do two buffs in a row while youre in the middle of fighting someone. If it stores it then it would be the same one. Using Oomph would mean it's stored on that one and it'd be the quick one used again. Which doesnt really help.

In a lot of cases people would want to quickly use a different move and if they have to remember which directions to press based on where it's stored, it's so much more complicated then always being on top and quickly changing to the one you want. To fight on the fly it's better if someone doesn't have to think ok do i go up because i did this move last? etc.

Zoom goes very far up, so i think it makes sense that it's not the default. It wont take long to use a move from the menu either, i think, if you know exactly which directions to press everytime.

It could very well be this way too. Although IDK how it would work. Like if you press A instead of releasing B then it stores the cursor? Could be and I see no real problem with it, but for some reason I doubt they'll do it that way.

If it's the case that a default can be changed, then that's what makes the most sense to me. Just to make people not have to always change and remember it when they use a new move. Maybe A or Grab or something else, sure.

 

[Chiroz]

Also, I will try to repeat that it could end up being exactly like you're theorizing with just double tapping B and the menu opens up every time. There's nothing to tell us it's NOT like that, I am just arguing that would make Hero much worse competitively and even casually. Not that he would be bad because of it, just that he could have been better otherwise.

 

[Teeb147]

Also, I will try to repeat that it could end up being exactly like you're theorizing with just double tapping B and the menu opens up every time. There's nothing to tell us it's NOT like that, I am just arguing that would make Hero much worse competitively and even casually. Not that he would be bad because of it, just that he could have been better otherwise.

Well in my view your idea would be worse competitively and casually. Changing the default everytime a spell is used is both confusing to new players as well as makes it harder competitively if they use moves, like a buff, and then would have to use something else just to make another spell back the default. And i can see other reasons too.

From the way they used zap in the trailer, it feels to me like it's maybe meant to be the default for side b as it's quicker than frizz, and seems to have a good hitbox even for up close.
Obviously it's hard to tell too much from just what we saw, but that last part is just an impression i have, it's not like an argument im using to say that's how it is.

If there's a way to change the default that's another button, then I'm completely fine with it, because it wouldnt even have to change the cursor location, just make it the one tap (b) move.

My idea right now for how it'd work is that tapping b does the default, so that would mean the menu would come up by holding b. That leaves it up to being like shulk where someone can just press the directions and release b. If it wouldn't work on release, then i think that yes it would be double tap to use the default, and b and then quickly a direction plus b again to use another spell. It could be quick if someone already knows which input to do. The third option would be the longest one to get to, unless there's a shortcut like maybe pressing left or right.

That's my ideas for now. So i'll at least put it out there since we've talked so much. I'm not set on any one idea tho, that's just the ones im leaning towards right now.

 

[Jade_Rock]

Hmm could it be like shulk where after holding B each move is a direction? Like hold side+B, reset stick to neutral while holding B, and then up down left right picks a move?

 

[Teeb147]

Hmm could it be like shulk where after holding B each move is a direction? Like hold side+B, reset stick to neutral while holding B, and then up down left right picks a move?

That's what I'm thinking, and you wouldn't need to reset the stick for side b if it's just up and down. So if you do side-b you could just do up or down to get the other options. We didnt see the other menus so maybe they're structured differently for each too.

And we dont know if there's more than 3 options for the other menus. If there's 3 for them then it's very easy, it's either up or down (if not doing the default, i mean). Pressing up wraps around to the bottom choice, and pressing down goes to the second one. Or maybe left and right too.

If there's 4 choices for each, like for neutral-b, maybe it could add that left or right (or something else) gets to the 3rd option.

Sizzle (default)
Psyche up ( hold b and then down + release.... or b down b if it's not on release)
Oomph ( b and right or left, or just down or up twice)
Snooze ( b and up)

 

[Jade_Rock]

What would be kinda cool is if we can swap the order in the controls menu, but I doubt it. Also changing the default.

 

[Teeb147]

What would be kinda cool is if we can swap the order in the controls menu, but I doubt it. Also changing the default.

It's one reason i really want sakurai to give us the details. There's just so much going on and there's gotta be something special we can do one way or another, it's a pretty unique character.

-
edit: Chiroz sorry i missed one of your posts, but looks like it was mostly about the startup, and I do think it'd be nice if there was a way to minimize it for all moves (not just the default). The way i thought it up wouldn't lead to much startup for them since im thinking the inputs can be taken quickly by the game, and also ones like oomph dont need to be as quick, in the case that it would be like that. But maybe there's an even better idea that sakurai decided on.

 

[Minik]

If each special does bring up its own menu, then SURELY they have to be listed as different moves, like surely they wouldn't just list it as:
Neutral b: Spell
Side b: Spell
Up b: Spell
Down b: Spell
But the menu we've seen so far seems pretty mixed, having sizzle and snooze alongside oomph and psyche up.

 

[Chiroz]

If each special does bring up its own menu, then SURELY they have to be listed as different moves, like surely they wouldn't just list it as:
Neutral b: Spell
Side b: Spell
Up b: Spell
Down b: Spell
But the menu we've seen so far seems pretty mixed, having sizzle and snooze alongside oomph and psyche up.

Where exactly are you talking about? Like in a strategy guide? Or do you mean the in game tips/training mode moveset?

Because both of those can be changed to describe 16 moves as opposed to 4, in fact even if there was only 1 menu, describing it as "Spell: you can choose one of 4 spells in game which are comprised from a list of a total of 10 spells before the match" is not good at all, you have to go into detail for all 10 of the spells you can choose otherwise might as well not even list it at all.

It's one reason i really want sakurai to give us the details. There's just so much going on and there's gotta be something special we can do one way or another, it's a pretty unique character.

-
edit: Chiroz sorry i missed one of your posts, but looks like it was mostly about the startup, and I do think it'd be nice if there was a way to minimize it for all moves (not just the default). The way i thought it up wouldn't lead to much startup for them since im thinking the inputs can be taken quickly by the game, and also ones like oomph dont need to be as quick, in the case that it would be like that. But maybe there's an even better idea that sakurai decided on.

It's cool.

Mostly the startup would come from having to click B then possibly Up and Down at least once, maybe twice, then releasing B. People have a hard time just short hopping (which is already 3 frames), imagine making that 1 input into 2 possibly 3, even if you think it's super quick, it's going to be around 10 frames or so, which is a lot in the context of a fighting game. This will happen anytime you want to choose an ability that's not default, no matter what system is put in place, the non-default skills will have an artificially added startup. We can only hope that they took that into account and that all moves have a pretty quick startup after the menu closes so that the added startup between menu and skill is low enough.

 

[Teeb147]

It's cool.

Mostly the startup would come from having to click B then possibly Up and Down at least once, maybe twice, then releasing B. People have a hard time just short hopping (which is already 3 frames), imagine making that 1 input into 2 possibly 3, even if you think it's super quick, it's going to be around 10 frames or so, which is a lot in the context of a fighting game. This will happen anytime you want to choose an ability that's not default, no matter what system is put in place, the non-default skills will have an artificially added startup. We can only hope that they took that into account and that all moves have a pretty quick startup after the menu closes so that the added startup between menu and skill is low enough.

Yup I hope they did and thought of a solution, but tbh when i saw the spell menu I thought that the possible extra startup is not a bad trade off for having so many options. I think that just like in street fighter and how people get extremely quick to make quarter circles and such, it's essentially the same thing for what i thought up. Anyone who's able to be quick with that (and ryu in smash), and even bayonetta's down angled side-b should be proof that it can be done fast and wont add much at all. The third option is really the only one that would have extra, and for all i know it might be fine. I dont expect the menu to even pop up in competitive play because of how fast people would be to do it.

 

[Minik]

Yeah I meant like ingame tips/move list, even Sonic spindash moves technically have different names so it'll be interesting to see how they handle it with this character. Also has Kirby hat been discussed? Are we assuming he gets sizzle, psyche up, oomph and snooze? Wonder if it'll pop off after it runs out of MP.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I can't wait to know what will be the 'downsides'/the limits to the Hero's versatility. It will probably have to do with MPs and how you regain them (assuming you can regain them somehow). I feel like it's the biggest missing piece of the puzzle to really understand the character as a whole.

It's not that i necessarily want downsides but i just have a feeling that there's going to be some, based on some other character's designs, in which versatility comes at a price (e.g. each of Shulk's Monado Arts have their corresponding nerf(s) and have their own time limits, Olimar's Pikmins are killable and come out in a pre-determined order, PT's Pokemon are vulnerable right after they get out of the Pokeball, etc.).

It could very well be a combination of things of course, maybe when accessing a spell menu the Hero is vulnerable for a minimum of frames before the 'thinking animation' becomes cancellable, maybe the menu can only be accessed from the ground, maybe MPs are really hard to regain, ??? Idk, i wish i'd know, it's keeping me up at night (not really )

Also has Kirby hat been discussed? Are we assuming he gets sizzle, psyche up, oomph and snooze? Wonder if it'll pop off after it runs out of MP.

It might be like the Inkling hat, when Kirby is out of Ink, he can't use splattershot anymore but keeps the hat.

Man, i hope Kirby will get a whole spell menu. It would be such an awesome powerup plus we'd get a 'thinking Kirby' animation out of this, everyone wins!

 

[Teeb147]

I can't wait to know what will be the 'downsides'/the limits to the Hero's versatility. It will probably have to do with MPs and how you regain them (assuming you can regain them somehow). I feel like it's the biggest missing piece of the puzzle to really understand the character as a whole.

It's not that i necessarily want downsides but i just have a feeling that there's going to be some, based on some other character's designs, in which versatility comes at a price (e.g. each of Shulk's Monado Arts have their corresponding nerf(s) and have their own time limits, Olimar's Pikmins are killable and come out in a pre-determined order, PT's Pokemon are vulnerable right after they get out of the Pokeball, etc.).

It could very well be a combination of things of course, maybe when accessing a spell menu make Hero vulnerable for a minimum of frames before being cancellable, maybe the menu can only be accessed from the ground, maybe MPs are really hard to regain, ??? Idk, i wish i'd know, it's keeping me up at night (not really )


It might be like the Inkling hat, when Kirby is out of Ink, he can't use splattershot anymore but keeps the hat.

Man, i hope Kirby will get a whole spell menu. It would be such an awesome powerup plus we'd get a 'thinking Kirby' animation out of this, everyone wins!

View attachment 228550

The MP is already a down side, even if it could be fun, because it takes a lot just for one spell. It does entirely depend on how much recovers. I'd be surprised if it can't be recovered somehow, because only being able to use a few spells per stock wouldnt be very fun.
Very curious about it too.

-

Just want to add that the talks we've had today here made me recognize there's could be quite a bit of stuff to wonder around the menus. It's not obvious yet, seems like.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Well so far, my favorite analysis videos have been
Gamexplain
BeefysmashDoods
ZeRo
...
...
...
Salem and M2K dead bottom. I wouldn’t even put them under a “favorite” category.

 

[Teeb147]

Well so far, my favorite analysis videos have been
Gamexplain
BeefysmashDoods
ZeRo
...
...
...
Salem and M2K dead bottom. I wouldn’t even put them under a “favorite” category.

Well I like that gameexplain covered stuff on the stage and all that, at least.