Moveset speculation

[meleebrawler]

If you do indeed recover MP with physical attacks, I have a hunch that won't apply when buffs like Oomph are in effect.

 

[Teeb147]

If you do indeed recover MP with physical attacks, I have a hunch that won't apply when buffs like Oomph are in effect.

Why? The buff already costs mp. I doubt they'd make it even more costly by doing that.

 

[Jade_Rock]

They could make each move recover a certain flat amount of mp if it hits. So Fsmash would recover more than say jab.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Assuming they keep being true to the character, Hero could recover MP through:

Walking (item from DQV)
Gradually over time (... its a smash thing)
Hitting opponent (DQIX)
Steal MP magic (DQ3)
Bow ability (DQ8)

 

[RonNewcomb]

I can't wait to know what will be the 'downsides'/the limits to the Hero's versatility. It will probably have to do with MPs and how you regain them (assuming you can regain them somehow). I feel like it's the biggest missing piece of the puzzle to really understand the character as a whole.

Frame data on that sword is sluggish, even assuming some animations can be cut short. Link's dash attack is hard to land without sour Nair + post-100% spin state, for example.

Casting a spell isn't quick either.

He isn't particularly mobile.

How will our hero deal with rushdown? Link and Robin both struggled with that.

 

[Minik]

Think the Hero might be more fisticuff based than we currently think, down tilt being a kick of some kind is already different from other sword fighters, so maybe they'll have some quick but short range kicks.

 

[Chiroz]

https://youtu.be/iujUEdS4_x0

Here is part 2 of my video, there are a few misspellings and such (I didn't write the text myself) but it's not a huge deal.

 

[Teeb147]

https://youtu.be/iujUEdS4_x0

Here is part 2 of my video, there are a few misspellings and such (I didn't write the text myself) but it's not a huge deal.

Thanks for it. It's a bit long but you covered more details than others videos around. I didn't notice a few effects that you pointed out, like for kaclang and kamikazee (for intengibility ect), so that's really good to note, and I've been wondering if kaclang could be grabbed or not, so that's good. I think it kind of needs to not be grabbable to be decent.

Some of the effects you went through on woosh made me wonder about the rings again, but then i saw those on kamikazee too, so I'm still not convinced that charging happens like you mentioned. I think it could be different. Like on frizz the animation does stop short (and seems like a jump to being used) but that could just be how the animation is for it, it doesn't look that bad at full speed. But I am more open to it being chargeable like the others (robin, samus, etc), even if I have a few reservations about it. Just still think it could be some other mechanic that we dont understand yet.

If kamikazee's range is as big as you think, it could maybe be good for edge guarding too. I at least want to try it All the ones being hit were close though, so i'm not sure the hitbox follows the effects. there's plenty of hitboxes that dont, but you might be right so kamikazee could actually be good (like doing it when at very high percents when they're not).

I might take a look again at the circles in the trailer sometime, i'm still not sure about those parts.
I also dont think there's as many frames to the menu, or thinking pose, as you think. Just like many animations can be canceled. I think it can easily just depend on how they played. My bet is that zoom could be used without even going into the thinking pose like we saw in the trailer, in example.

Anyway, you did pretty good with the video, enough detail to think more in depth.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I’ll check the videos out soon.

I’m wondering, also, what happens if you kacklang in the path of everyone’s recovery. Since you can’t go through characters in this game, does that mean you could stop Ness’ pk thunder2 in its tracks?

Not sure if it’ll cause damage like Kirby’s down+b (why wouldn’t it) but if it doesn’t, it could at least make you an impassable object.

 

[Chiroz]

Thanks for it. It's a bit long but you covered more details than others videos around. I didn't notice a few effects that you pointed out, like for kaclang and kamikazee (for intengibility ect), so that's really good to note, and I've been wondering if kaclang could be grabbed or not, so that's good. I think it kind of needs to not be grabbable to be decent.

Some of the effects you went through on woosh made me wonder about the rings again, but then i saw those on kamikazee too, so I'm still not convinced that charging happens like you mentioned. I think it could be different. Like on frizz the animation does stop short (and seems like a jump to being used) but that could just be how the animation is for it, it doesn't look that bad at full speed. But I am more open to it being chargeable like the others (robin, samus, etc). Just still think it could be some other mechanic that we dont understand yet.

If kamikazee's range is as big as you think, it could maybe be good for edge guarding too. I at least want to try it All the ones being hit were close though, so i'm not sure the hitbox follows the effects. there's plenty of hitboxes that dont, but you might be right so kamikazee could actually be good (like doing it when at very high percents when they're not).

I might take a look again at the circles in the trailer, i'm still not sure about those parts.
I also dont think there's as many frames to the menu, or thinking pose, as you think. Just like many animations can be canceled. I think it can easily just depend on how they played. My bet is that zoom could be used without even going into the thinking pose like we saw in the trailer, in example.

Anyway, you did pretty good with the video, enough detail to think more in depth.

Thanks.

Just going to point out, my frame data on Thinking Pose is basically "frames before starting to charge" or another way to see it is "frames before circles start to spawn".

The way I got this frame data is by looking at Frizz Level 1 and Zap level 2 and noticing that circles start to spawn around frame 9-11 on both then I looked at Zap level 1 at the end of the video and I noticed that circles never spawned at all and that he just started performing Zap on frame 9-11, so that lead me to believe that "mandatory startup before thinking pose" is 7-9 frames because all 3 spells (2 as Zap level 1 and 2 are the same) where we can see the startup, all 3 share the exact same frames before the circles start "forming".

Also, take into account that I believe that charging is only when the circles are forming, not when they glow. So Kamikazee or Kaclang having glowing circles don't mean anything for the charging theory. The reason those glowing yellow circles are there it's because they are present in DQ games when a spell is cast. What is weird is the forming circles as that is not something that happens in DQ games (or at least not in 8 which is the one I just played). AFAIK the forming circles are something new added just for Smash and there must be a reason for them to do that as opposed to just always being full like in DQ 8 (unless it's present in some other DQ and it's a reference to that in some way).

I’ll check the videos out soon.

I’m wondering, also, what happens if you kacklang in the path of everyone’s recovery. Since you can’t go through characters in this game, does that mean you could stop Ness’ pk thunder2 in its tracks?

Not sure if it’ll cause damage like Kirby’s down+b (why wouldn’t it) but if it doesn’t, it could at least make you an impassable object.

People can pass through you if they are performing an attack so it won't stop them. You might push them a bit farther away from the ledge (like a very weak windbox) but it won't stop them. For Ness specifically if his Up-B hits you it will reduce the travel distance in half, so that is an actual valid way to kill Ness. Also you can take his PK Thunder so he doesn't hit himself and just falls to his death.

I have a feeling, based on nothing but my own belief, that Kaclang will make The Hero fall super fast and deal damage when falling like Kirby's down-b, but maybe not. Kaclang's usefulness will be almost completely tied to how long the endlag on it is.

 

[Minik]

Anyone know what animation this is from? It can't be an idle since the shield is put away.

 

[GolisoPower]

Anyone know what animation this is from? It can't be an idle since the shield is put away.
View attachment 228660

I dunno why, but it looks like a taunt to me.

 

[Chiroz]

Anyone know what animation this is from? It can't be an idle since the shield is put away.
View attachment 228660

Is that from the trailer? Let me know timestamp and I can try telling you. If his shield is away it’s probably the endlag of a spell as all spells put his shield away.

 

[GolisoPower]

Is that from the trailer? Let me know timestamp and I can try telling you. If his shield is away it’s probably the endlag of a spell as all spells put his shield away.

Nope, it was in a screenshot on the website.

 

[Chiroz]

Nope, it was in a screenshot on the website.

No way for me to know then. I would wager it’s the endlag of a spell or a throw because of the shield.

 

[meleebrawler]

Why? The buff already costs mp. I doubt they'd make it even more costly by doing that.

I'm just concerned that if they don't implement some kind of measure like that, it would become the kind of spell you have on at all times, even if you're not actively looking to engage in close quarters.

Frame data on that sword is sluggish, even assuming some animations can be cut short. Link's dash attack is hard to land without sour Nair + post-100% spin state, for example.

Casting a spell isn't quick either.

He isn't particularly mobile.

How will our hero deal with rushdown? Link and Robin both struggled with that.

By throwing out Ganondorf-level attacks fueled by spell buffs and freezing them with a touch.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm just concerned that if they don't implement some kind of measure like that, it would become the kind of spell you have on at all times, even if you're not actively looking to engage in close quarters.



By throwing out Ganondorf-level attacks fueled by spell buffs and freezing them with a touch.

Ganon struggles vs rushdown very much, lol. Hitting hard and covering a lot of space doesn't really help when you can't get a single attack out , hahaha. I think we still need to see all of Heros special and sort of understand what each one does before we can fully analyze how well he will do vs Rush Down. For all we know he could have a broken frame 3 Up-B that would eliminate all rush down problems, lol.

 

[Teeb147]

I'm just concerned that if they don't implement some kind of measure like that, it would become the kind of spell you have on at all times, even if you're not actively looking to engage in close quarters.

Ok, well it really depends what they've done with the move. I dont like something that would make for less mp. There's other ways to balance it if it needs to be. We dont know how much it boosts dmg and if it's worth it for the mp in all situations, especially considering how good keeping that mp to mix up with magic could be, instead of leading to being left with mostly A attacks. There could also be a cool down on certain spells so they wouldnt be used all the time.

I think oomph doesn't need a drawback, but maybe there'll be a tiny one. I definitely dont expect it to be quite as much as shulk if there is one, anyway.
I do think it would've been cool to have a second buff (i dont count psyche up) to be able to choose between them, but i'm glad it's there and pretty curious how it's going to end up working

 

[RonNewcomb]

Ganon struggles vs rushdown very much, lol. Hitting hard and covering a lot of space doesn't really help when you can't get a single attack out , hahaha. I think we still need to see all of Heros special and sort of understand what each one does before we can fully analyze how well he will do vs Rush Down. For all we know he could have a broken frame 3 Up-B that would eliminate all rush down problems, lol.

I'm guessing d-tilt will be his answer. Zelda had a f4 d-tilt previously that setup into stuff. Since Luminary's d-tilt isn't a sword strike it should have faster startup assuming it isn't a slide. IIRC Ike and Cloud's jab are f4 as well.

But yeah, really interested in what his other two OoS options are, since the first two are Robin levels of useless in CQC.

 

[Slime Master]

If the shield bash has invincibility a la Palutena dash attack that might help with rushdown as well, at least a little.

 

[RonNewcomb]

If the shield bash has invincibility a la Palutena dash attack that might help with rushdown as well, at least a little.

I think that would have more utility vs other swordies. Like, parry Marthcina's f-air into punish, since the follow up attack has some frames before striking.

Then again maybe I'm assuming the bash works like a clank, nullifying both attacks. That's bad for us but still deals with other swordies wanting to fence.

Or maybe the bash is just flavor without gameplay difference. Blah, so many questions.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Chiroz great videos, exactly what I was looking for.

For spells cast without the thinking animation, could it be the animation was actually there, but only for one frame which the 30fps vid skipped?

 

[Chiroz]

I think that would have more utility vs other swordies. Like, parry Marthcina's f-air into punish, since the follow up attack has some frames before striking.

Then again maybe I'm assuming the bash works like a clank, nullifying both attacks. That's bad for us but still deals with other swordies wanting to fence.

Or maybe the bash is just flavor without gameplay difference. Blah, so many questions.

The assumption is the shield will just beat out attacks, no clank, we just win. There’s a precedence with Palutena’s Dash Attack and B-Air which both do that.

Chiroz great videos, exactly what I was looking for.

For spells cast without the thinking animation, could it be the animation was actually there, but only for one frame which the 30fps vid skipped?

There could be but what I am assuming is that if you just tap the button Hero never reaches thinking animation, he just casts the currently default spell.

If the shield bash has invincibility a la Palutena dash attack that might help with rushdown as well, at least a little.

You guys don’t really understand what the problem is vs rushdown. Basically in order to deal well with rushdown you need a quick option that can be performed OoS and normally can hit opponents both in front and on the back so people don’t just cross you up. Things like a frame 8 f-tilt don’t really help that much against rush down. D-tilts also don’t really help vs rushdown because they can’t be performed OoS. Zelda’s best tool vs rushdown is her neutral B which is actually pretty good because of the intangibility and yet Zelda still struggles vs them.

You need something like a super quick aerial, u-smash or up-b to deal with rushdown well. Another option is having really good movement and use the movement to avoid being put into a pressure situation but I doubt Hero will be super mobile, I think he will be middle of the pack in terms of movement.

 

[Minik]

I think spell menus will be able to be done in hitstun, which could be really good for kaclang if say done high up, though it depends on how kaclang ends, its one thing to tank damage as it hits you but if theres too much lag afterwards then I don't see the point of it. I wonder if maybe the metal effect of it will make the Hero drop down fast, perhaps even with a hitbox acting like Kirby down b. It's a move that interests me quite a bit in concept since smash doesn't really have just PURE protection moves.

 

[Teeb147]

I think spell menus will be able to be done in hitstun, which could be really good for kaclang if say done high up, though it depends on how kaclang ends, its one thing to tank damage as it hits you but if theres too much lag afterwards then I don't see the point of it. I wonder if maybe the metal effect of it will make the Hero drop down fast, perhaps even with a hitbox acting like Kirby down b. It's a move that interests me quite a bit in concept since smash doesn't really have just PURE protection moves.

Hmm. Well Shulk could do it, so that's not a bad thought at all. I'm really curious about if that can be a thing now too. Not just for kaclang, but it would definitely be cool if it could be a combo breaker.

 

[Jade_Rock]

Hmm. Well Shulk could do it, so that's not a bad thought at all. I'm really curious about if that can be a thing now too. Not just for kaclang, but it would definitely be cool if it could be a combo breaker.

Interesting if it can be done in hitstun. I think the each direction and hold B makes the sense then similar to shulk's b move. Though if you are in hitstun you can't do a move. In the trailer he immediately went into snooze animation. It is possible one b press selects the move then he simply pressed b again to use snooze?

Monado just activates automatically, but is isn't a move with an animation (besides the glow) and hitbox. Hero can't just do moves in hitstun like that.

 

[Teeb147]

Interesting if it can be done in hitstun. I think the each direction and hold B makes the sense then similar to shulk's b move. Though if you are in hitstun you can't do a move. In the trailer he immediately went into snooze animation. It is possible one b press selects the move then he simply pressed b again to use snooze?

Monado just activates automatically, but is isn't a move with an animation (besides the glow) and hitbox. Hero can't just do moves in hitstun like that.

It entirely depends how they programmed it. There's animation for when shulk enters a monado too, but it's not needed, or someone could see it as 'cancelled' even if that's not exactly the case, just like a lot of animations can, especially in Ultimate. As long as the effects gets triggered that's what counts.

If they wanted to put kaclang in but then would see that it's not very useful by itself then it could one way to make it. If the menu shows up even when in hitstun, and they set that the effect for it (not all spells tho) has priority when it's selected then technically it can all work. Or maybe at least it could be buffered so that the effect activates as soon as hitstun is over.

Anyway, it's all just ideas right now

 

[Chiroz]

A thing to consider about games is that they try to not be confusing. Things tend to be as consistent as possible.

The question would be, if Kaclang worked that way, how would the other spells work? I can see being able to buffer spells in hitstun to be performed frame 1 after hitstun ends, but I can't see them allowing you to perform them in hitstun as it wouldn't be consistent with all the other spells he has.

Anyways, Kaclang has a lot of frames of startup even if we could bypass the whole thinking startup by buffering it in hitstun, it won't be a combo breaker in any way. We haven't seen any move that is quick enough to be a combo breaker although I am praying for quick aggresive Up-B.

 

[Slime Master]

You guys don’t really understand what the problem is vs rushdown. Basically in order to deal well with rushdown you need a quick option that can be performed OoS and normally can hit opponents both in front and on the back so people don’t just cross you up. Things like a frame 8 f-tilt don’t really help that much against rush down. D-tilts also don’t really help vs rushdown because they can’t be performed OoS. Zelda’s best tool vs rushdown is her neutral B which is actually pretty good because of the intangibility and yet Zelda still struggles vs them.

You need something like a super quick aerial, u-smash or up-b to deal with rushdown well. Another option is having really good movement and use the movement to avoid being put into a pressure situation but I doubt Hero will be super mobile, I think he will be middle of the pack in terms of movement.

That's fair. The other thing to bear in mind, though, is that frame data isn't final. Previous character trailers used footage from varying different pre-release builds (Wolf famously has different colored soles to his boots in different clips), and we only have the one video to base things off of, so there's no objective way to check for frame drops. That said, he's a swordie and swordies historically haven't had great startup data, so OOS problems are pretty plausible regardless.

 

[Teeb147]

A thing to consider about games is that they try to not be confusing. Things tend to be as consistent as possible.

The question would be, if Kaclang worked that way, how would the other spells work? I can see being able to buffer spells in hitstun to be performed frame 1 after hitstun ends, but I can't see them allowing you to perform them in hitstun as it wouldn't be consistent with all the other spells he has.

Anyways, Kaclang has a lot of frames of startup even if we could bypass the whole thinking startup by buffering it in hitstun, it won't be a combo breaker in any way. We haven't seen any move that is quick enough to be a combo breaker although I am praying for quick aggresive Up-B.

I knew you would say that, haha. You look at certain patterns too much. imo.
I'm just adding to a possible idea they could've done to make the move useful.

 

[Chiroz]

That's fair. The other thing to bear in mind, though, is that frame data isn't final. Previous character trailers used footage from varying different pre-release builds (Wolf famously has different colored soles to his boots in different clips), and we only have the one video to base things off of, so there's no objective way to check for frame drops. That said, he's a swordie and swordies historically haven't had great startup data, so OOS problems are pretty plausible regardless.

I agree, but also I would say that his frame data isn't going to become severely different. Designers will normally have an idea for a move, and you can sort of tell what their idea for the move is. If they think a move should be strong but rather slow, they might make it faster later on to balance it if it turns out that move is "bad", but it won't suddenly become a super fast move because that was never their intention.

So like, his frame data might become faster, but it's slow enough right now where it is safe to say it isn't going to be Sheik/Plumbers frame data, none of our moves will probably be combo breaker (unless one of the moves we haven't seen is a combo breaker).

I knew you would say that, haha. You look at certain patterns too much. imo.
I'm just adding to a possible idea they could've done to make the move useful.

Lol that is very true about myself, but imo, most of the things in life are patterns tbh, specially in video games. One of the main objectives of designing is to teach the player without telling them, and that is done through patterns. That doesn't mean everything has to have a pattern, but that you should always assume something was made in an intuitive way that allow players to explore and learn by themselves. If you start having random properties on every attack it becomes hard to learn and understand.

Just think of Smash. Look at how we can see a move and understand whether it's a Neutral B, an Up-B, a Side-B or a Down-B. They don't need to tell us what it is, we learn it because it has set up some patterns for us to understand.

Or look at how we can tell if a move is a Jab, or an F-Tilt or an U-Tilt, etc.

 

[Teeb147]

I agree, but also I would say that his frame data isn't going to become severely different. Designers will normally have an idea for a move, and you can sort of tell what their idea for the move is. If they thing a move should be strong but rather slow, they might make it faster later on to balance it if it turns out that move is "bad", but it won't suddenly become a super fast move because that was never their intention.

So like, his frame data might become faster, but it's slow enough right now where it is safe to say it isn't going to be Sheik/Plumbers frame data, none of our moves will probably be combo breaker (unless one of the moves we haven't seen is a combo breaker).






Lol that is very true about myself, but imo, most of the things in life are patterns tbh, specially in video games. One of the main objectives of designing is to teach the player without telling them, and that is done through patterns. That doesn't mean everything has to have a pattern, but that you should always assume something was made in an intuitive way that allow players to explore and learn by themselves. If you start having random properties on every attack it becomes hard to learn and understand.

Just think of Smash. Look at how we can see a move and understand whether it's a Neutral B, an Up-B, a Side-B or a Down-B. They don't need to tell us what it is, we learn it because it has set up some patterns for us to understand.

Or look at how we can tell if a move is a Jab, or an F-Tilt or an U-Tilt, etc.

Of course i'm not saying not to look at patterns, but lots of moves are programmed uniquely too and Hero is pretty unique. And we dont have much to look at in terms of menus besides shulk, so it's possible it could be like that, and then i think looking too much at the animations to try to know when the effects kick in might not always be reliable. Especially that everything is tuned with ideas in mind. Usually you start with something more general, and then fine tune it and make it unique based on what you think of it. It's easy to see kaclang as not being very useful especially in 1v1 matches (unless it has little lag on release), and i could see them honing the move to have something like that. But it's just an idea.

I think of how Yoshi has super armor on his double jump and it's sometimes useful to combo break since it's faster than air dodging, and before knowing about it you wouldnt think a jump would have that, but it's added in because his recovery isn't the best, and it's useful besides that too, so it's not too hard to see them experiment with the move and toy with the intangibility of it (and the timing). They take a lot of time to test and tune moves, so if they have the eye for it it could be one way to take it. I'm mostly just wondering how they want to make the move useful, and worth the mp too.

I think having the perspective of a designer goes a lot further than just streamlining everything, and there's always going to be new nuances to learn too, if it benefits players (so long as it's decently balanced..)

 

[Chiroz]

Of course i'm not saying not to look at patterns, but lots of moves are programmed uniquely too and Hero is pretty unique. And we dont have much to look at in terms of menus besides shulk, so it's possible it could be like that, and then i think looking too much at the animations to try to know when the effects kick in might not always be reliable. Especially that everything is tuned with ideas in mind. Usually you start with something more general, and then fine tune it and make it unique based on what you think of it. It's easy to see kaclang as not being very useful especially in 1v1 matches (unless it has little lag on release), and i could see them honing the move to have something like that. But it's just an idea.

I think of how Yoshi has super armor on his double jump and it's sometimes useful to combo break since it's faster than air dodging, and before knowing about it you wouldnt think a jump would have that, but it's added in because his recovery isn't the best, and it's useful besides that too, so it's not too hard to see them experiment with the move and toy with the intangibility of it (and the timing). They take a lot of time to test and tune moves, so if they have the eye for it it could be one way to take it. I'm mostly just wondering how they want to make the move useful, and worth the mp too.

I think having the perspective of a designer goes a lot further than just streamlining everything, and there's always going to be new nuances to learn too, if it benefits players (so long as it's decently balanced..)

I always try to look at it in the perspective of a game designer. "What are designers trying to achieve with this?" is the first question I ask whenever I see something. This is why everything becomes a pattern, when you think about what they are trying to achieve you can then see all the other ways they've achieved the same on other characters and then you can easily compare what the differences are.

Say: "What are they trying to achieve with Kaclang?" then look at all the other moves that are meant to do the same as Kaclang and see what properties they have, then look at the differences and compare whether those differences are pros/cons, depending on whether they are pros or cons you can sort of start thinking of ways to "balance" the move in terms to the other ones that are meant to achieve the same thing.

In the example you give about Yoshi, Yoshi originally had no Up-B, so when you compared his Up-B to others, you knew his lack of height gain was a definite con, so he needed a pro that helped him fill that blank space that was missing. In that case it was making his Double Jump into a decent recovery move, and that solution was achieved by giving it super armor.

So if you were to say: "Well maybe The Hero's double jump has super armor", even though there's already a precedent my response will be "I doubt it because only one jump has super armor up to this point and there was an specific reason why they did that, whereas there's no reason that we know of for Hero to have it". That doesn't mean it can't happen, but that it's extremely unlikely that it does happen.

It's like if I started saying, well maybe Hero has 4 jumps. Or maybe Hero is the first character without a fast fall.

Like yea, anything like that could happen and those things I just said could end up being true. It's not bad to throw ideas out there, and you've said some interesting ideas don't get me wrong, but it's also not bad to point out that they are not probably to happen.



Anyways, I feel like I am an asshole at times when I talk to people in general because I am very cynical and as you said very pattern and fact oriented and sometimes I come off as rude or a "party-pooper". I will try to sort of let more fun and interesting ideas be talked about without giving my opinion on how probable I think they are to happen.

 

[Teeb147]

I always try to look at it in the perspective of a game designer. "What are designers trying to achieve with this?" is the first question I ask whenever I see something. This is why everything becomes a pattern, when you think about what they are trying to achieve you can then see all the other ways they've achieved the same on other characters and then you can easily compare what the differences are.

Say: "What are they trying to achieve with Kaclang?" then look at all the other moves that are meant to do the same as Kaclang and see what properties they have, then look at the differences and compare whether those differences are pros/cons, depending on whether they are pros or cons you can sort of start thinking of ways to "balance" the move in terms to the other ones that are meant to achieve the same thing.

In the example you give about Yoshi, Yoshi originally had no Up-B, so when you compared his Up-B to others, you knew his lack of height gain was a definite con, so he needed a pro that helped him fill that blank space that was missing. In that case it was making his Double Jump into a decent recovery move, and that solution was achieved by giving it super armor.

So if you were to say: "Well maybe The Hero's double jump has super armor", even though there's already a precedent my response will be "I doubt it because only one jump has super armor up to this point and there was an specific reason why they did that, whereas there's no reason that we know of for Hero to have it". That doesn't mean it can't happen, but that it's extremely unlikely that it does happen.

It's like if I started saying, well maybe Hero has 4 jumps. Or maybe Hero is the first character without a fast fall.

Like yea, anything like that could happen and those things I just said could end up being true. It's not bad to throw ideas out there, and you've said some interesting ideas don't get me wrong, but it's also not bad to point out that they are not probably to happen.



Anyways, I feel like I am an ******* at times when I talk to people in general because I am very cynical and as you said very pattern and fact oriented and sometimes I come off as rude or a "party-pooper". I will try to sort of let more fun and interesting ideas be talked about without giving my opinion on how probable I think they are to happen.

I was purely talking about yoshi's super armor to mean that they can add something unique and different to balance something out, in a similar way they might for kaclang, not hero's double jump

Also just noticed you changed your avatar. it's cute.

note: didn't mean to ignore everything else you said, i think it's fine to look at it differently. Sometimes just have to watch for not going too far with a viewpoint, i guess. (same for anyone)

 

[Chiroz]

I was purely talking about yoshi's super armor to mean that they can add something unique and different to balance something out, in a similar way they might for kaclang, not hero's double jump

Also just noticed you changed your avatar. it's cute.

note: didn't mean to ignore everything else you said, i think it's fine to look at it differently. Sometimes just have to watch for not going too far with a viewpoint, i guess. (same for anyone)

Thanks, I need to find a cute picture of The Hero too for when he releases because I am pretty sure I will main him, lol.

 

[Teeb147]

Thanks, I need to find a cute picture of The Hero too for when he releases because I am pretty sure I will main him, lol.

Which hero?

 

[Chiroz]

Which hero?

Still thinking about it. I had never played DQ before but I am a fan of many other jrpgs so I fell in love with his menu/spells mechanic (assuming it works close to what we've been speculating of 4 menus). I am now 20 hours into DQ 8 and will play 3 afterwards, then 4 and lastly 11 when it releases on Switch.


Going purely by looks right now the alts I like in order are

Original Erdrick
Red/Black 11
Blue/White 8
Orange/Blue 4
Original 11
Original 8
Oiginal 4
White/Purple Erdrick


If Erdrick had the Orange/Blue alt I would have definitely mained that skin since I am a huge DB fan and he would have looked exactly like Gohan/Goku.

 

[Teeb147]

Still thinking about it. I had never played DQ before but I am a fan of many other jrpgs so I fell in love with his menu/spells mechanic (assuming it works close to what we've been speculating of 4 menus). I am now 20 hours into DQ 8 and will play 3 afterwards, then 4 and lastly 11 when it releases on Switch.


Going purely by looks right now the alts I like in order are

Original Erdrick
Red/Black 11
Blue/White 8
Orange/Blue 4
Original 11
Original 8
Oiginal 4
White/Purple Erdrick


If Erdrick had the Orange/Blue alt I would have definitely mained that skin since I am a huge DB fan and he would have looked exactly like Gohan/Goku.

It's pretty close to the skins i might use. Tho i like green hair so i'll probably use dq4 sometimes. ;p
I'm not sure which i like between 8's, but i like both.

As to back on the moveset, i'm really curious how people will use the different spells. I'm gonna try to use everything, but obviously some things are gonna be better at times. (or favorites)

 

[Jade_Rock]

It's pretty close to the skins i might use. Tho i like green hair so i'll probably use dq4 sometimes. ;p
I'm not sure which i like between 8's, but i like both.

As to back on the moveset, i'm really curious how people will use the different spells. I'm gonna try to use everything, but obviously some things are gonna be better at times. (or favorites)

Personally I can see myself using Blue 8 and original 8 the most since that was my first DQ. Erdrick looks cool too and I'm currently playing dq3 and dq5 is my second favorite DQ so that skin looks great!

Yeah some spells will be better than others, but the same can be said about all moves. I can see spells like frizz and heal being the most useful in general to space characters out and healing can never be bad no matter who you fight, assuming it isn't too much of a commitment. Swoosh as a ledge trap could work on many characters. Swoosh to a spike maybe(assuming he has one). Bounce seems to have a quick cast time and if he can move you can say, bounce and rush in on Samus/link.

The more situational ones I see are the buffs, if you can't find an opening to take that time, it isn't worth the mp probably. Kaclang we don't know much, maybe for doubles to tank kinda I honestly don't know.

 

[Teeb147]

Personally I can see myself using Blue 8 and original 8 the most since that was my first DQ. Erdrick looks cool too and I'm currently playing dq3 and dq5 is my second favorite DQ so that skin looks great!

Yeah some spells will be better than others, but the same can be said about all moves. I can see spells like frizz and heal being the most useful in general to space characters out and healing can never be bad no matter who you fight, assuming it isn't too much of a commitment. Swoosh as a ledge trap could work on many characters. Swoosh to a spike maybe(assuming he has one). Bounce seems to have a quick cast time and if he can move you can say, bounce and rush in on Samus/link.

The more situational ones I see are the buffs, if you can't find an opening to take that time, it isn't worth the mp probably. Kaclang we don't know much, maybe for doubles to tank kinda I honestly don't know.

zap seems very good as a fast projectile too. I think it'll be very good to use.
Too bad we havent seen the cost for it and frizz yet.