Moveset speculation

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I've actually already been gimped as robin because of it though. It's not a huge weakness, but someone that knows how to take advantage of it can make it seem like a real weakness.

I do think zoom shouldn't cost much, but all the spells have different mp costs then the game, and psyche up usually doesn't have any, so... maybe zoom does in smash. But If I had to guess though I think all up-b spells wont cost less. maybe 4-5 mp or something.. hopefully less ;p
I see. I don't play Robin so I wouldn't know. I can see it going either way for us then. And yeah, how much MP a spell costs in DQ is definitely not an indicator of how much it will cost in smash (which is fine, balance is a thing).
 

Teeb147

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I see. I don't play Robin so I wouldn't know. I can see it going either way for us then. And yeah, how much MP a spell costs in DQ is definitely not an indicator of how much it will cost in smash (which is fine, balance is a thing).
Yeah. they all seem to be around 15 to 18 mp up to now i think.

And I meant to say that I think all up-b spells will cost less. It does depend how the magic system works.. but it could be a big weakness if they cost as much and someone runs out of mp. If it's like robin then just being knocked off the stage a couple times would be enough to run out. So that's why i think it'll cost a lot less for up-b spells.
 

Jade_Rock

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I think zoom will cost 0 since it did not have the spell cast circles around it. So you always have a recovery but may need menu time which makes you vulnerable.
 
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Reminder that Robin's up-b shared resources with his repeating jab. And that the up-b took two uses of that resource. :shrug:
True, but even with 2 uses per up B that still amounts to more up Bs than side Bs or down Bs. IDK how much rapid jab plays into it, not sure how much Robin likes to use that move.
 

Jade_Rock

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True, but even with 2 uses per up B that still amounts to more up Bs than side Bs or down Bs. IDK how much rapid jab plays into it, not sure how much Robin likes to use that move.
I believe it's about how long you hold the rapid jab down. It's not impossible for zoom to not take mp, but maybe I'm being very optimistic here.

Personally I've always found Robin's resource management to be dumb since it moves aren't amazing anyway, like I can't spam arcfire, but snake and ness can spam grenades and pk fire? I like the reference to the games, but practically it's dumb.

At least hero most likely has over 10 spells to make up for his resource mechanic.
 

Teeb147

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I believe it's about how long you hold the rapid jab down. It's not impossible for zoom to not take mp, but maybe I'm being very optimistic here.

Personally I've always found Robin's resource management to be dumb since it moves aren't amazing anyway, like I can't spam arcfire, but snake and ness can spam grenades and pk fire? I like the reference to the games, but practically it's dumb.

At least hero most likely has over 10 spells to make up for his resource mechanic.
Having a dozen or more spells definitely calls for some balancing :p Lets just hope they decided to go on the generous side and that it's fun to play them (and be able to do a lot of spells)

I think arcfire definitely doesn't merit having resources since it's so slow, but at least neutral b is good for the most part.
I usually like to use the fire finisher for the jab, but i have trouble doing it in ultimate. i think it could be because of the buffering system tho.
 

Frizz

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Robin's durability mechanic isn't too bad—his weapons breaking makes his playstyle much more interesting. If they didn't, it would be the same old bread and butter Arcfire to Levin F-Air over and over again. Having a limit on how many times you can use a move before it needs to recharge forces you to manage your resources carefully and mix things up a bit accordingly, sort of like how Fire Emblem plays. There's even a bunch of cool setups you could do with the broken weapons. Besides, Robin would probably be one of the most annoying characters to fight if he didn't have the durability mechanic.
 

Teeb147

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Robin's durability mechanic isn't too bad—his weapons breaking makes his playstyle much more interesting. If they didn't, it would be the same old bread and butter Arcfire to Levin F-Air over and over again. Having a limit on how many times you can use a move before it needs to recharge forces you to manage your resources carefully and mix things up a bit accordingly, sort of like how Fire Emblem plays. There's even a bunch of cool setups you could do with the broken weapons. Besides, Robin would probably be one of the most annoying characters to fight if he didn't have the durability mechanic.
I think the point is that when there's a drawback it has to be worth it. The levin sword is good, but arcfire is slow and most of the time it ends up biting me in the butt when i use it. Need to be really good at reading. And people can even dodge out of it, and all that.

It's not always easy to balance a game. But i think with more experience they should be better at it now.. hopefully :p
 

Jade_Rock

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I think the point is that when there's a drawback it has to be worth it. The levin sword is good, but arcfire is slow and most of the time it ends up biting me in the butt when i use it. Need to be really good at reading. And people can even dodge out of it, and all that.

It's not always easy to balance a game. But i think with more experience they should be better at it now.. hopefully :p
For one this is the most balanced smash game by a decent margin imo.

Also I forgot item play and z drops can become combos for Robin. Guess durability can be useful.
 

Frizz

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I think the point is that when there's a drawback it has to be worth it. The levin sword is good, but arcfire is slow and most of the time it ends up biting me in the butt when i use it. Need to be really good at reading. And people can even dodge out of it, and all that.

It's not always easy to balance a game. But i think with more experience they should be better at it now.. hopefully :p
I'll admit that Arcfire is a bit tricky to pull off sometimes due to how slow it is, but it still is worth it when you land it because of the amount of follow-ups you could make because of it, like F-Air, U-Air, B-Air, U-Smash and Thoron—They're all very strong kill options.

Personally speaking, the durability drawback is worth it because of the amount of uses his spells have. Most projectiles are either meant as disruptions or kill options, but Robin's Thunder spells alone cover that.

Thunder is a quick, weak move that can be used to interrupt the opponent to either take a breather or continue a combo.

Elthunder is a general projectile that has decent range and killing power, which is useful for sniping opponents when they're off-stage.

Arcthunder is good for baiting out shields for a grab or Nosferatu or even a potential shield break. In Smash 4, it was a bit better—it was much easier to get grabs, Nosferatus, footstools, Arcfires, and even Smash attacks off of it.

Thoron is a strong kill option that covers the entire horizontal area and can be used to punish tech rolls, and can even be used after Arcfire.

Arcfire is a projectile that helps maintain neutral and setup for kill options. If it misses, it can be used as a temporary shield from some projectiles. It also covers ledge recovery options pretty well. Arcfire was arguably better and easier to pull off in Smash 4 as well—footstools, Arcfire chains, etc.

Elwind as a recovery option has a lot variety, it can be used to mainly get horizontal distance, vertical distance, or a mix of both. It even serves as a great spike move, since you recover while doing it. Its durability is easily offset by the fact that it is a great, if slow and predictable, recovery move, and that it recharges in 5 seconds anyway.

Nosferatu does a decent amount of damage and recovers a fair bit of health. As far as command grabs go, it's pretty good. It's great against shields and rolls, and it's a pretty decent ledge mixup option since most people would be caught offguard.

Of course, being interrupted mid-cast does still take away durability points, which is annoying sometimes, especially against Megaman and Villager, and Robin's projectiles DOES clank with a lot of the other, weaker projectiles when it really shouldn't, but it's not too bad. It's a minor nuisance at best.

TL;DR, Robin's spells have a lot of different uses in them, and I think that alone offsets the durability mechanic.
 
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The thing that bugs me about Robin's spells is that they're no better than similar tools on other characters: Thunder's only real benefit over other charge and storable projectiles is Arcthunder, Arcfire isn't much better than holy water, Nosferatu is unique in its usage, but probably the worst command grab in the game, and Elwind is pretty easy to intercept since it isn't especially fast and offers no protection. To bring it back to Hero, I think even if his spells wind up in a similar boat to Robin's where they're not any better than similar moves, having the sheer variety of different spells will offset their cost in a meaningful way.
 
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Hey so it appears we've been wrong from the very beginning about how the menus would work:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77820384

Apparently Hero's menu system works off of RNG, meaning he likely has a standard UpB, SideB and Neutral/Down B depending on what the menu is on.
Honestly, I preferred the idea of menus for each special rather than RNG but here we are
 

Jade_Rock

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Hey so it appears we've been wrong from the very beginning about how the menus would work:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77820384

Apparently Hero's menu system works off of RNG, meaning he likely has a standard UpB, SideB and Neutral/Down B depending on what the menu is on.
Honestly, I preferred the idea of menus for each special rather than RNG but here we are
Great... We're screwed. Oh you got 0 recovery spells while recovering? Yay, you lost the set.

I honestly can't believe they decided to add that much RNG into a character if that's what actually happened. Who would think that's a great idea for balance?

Maybe the order of the 4 spells is random on each special? Still this sounds dumb.
 
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Hey so it appears we've been wrong from the very beginning about how the menus would work:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77820384

Apparently Hero's menu system works off of RNG, meaning he likely has a standard UpB, SideB and Neutral/Down B depending on what the menu is on.
Honestly, I preferred the idea of menus for each special rather than RNG but here we are
I really hope this is either a mistranslation or bad wording.
And that what he meant by random was either “we randomly chose these spells “ or “a menu with the various spells appear”.

RNG will ruin the character. It’ll be the no-airgame to Little Mac levels of ruin.
 
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Hey so it appears we've been wrong from the very beginning about how the menus would work:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77820384

Apparently Hero's menu system works off of RNG, meaning he likely has a standard UpB, SideB and Neutral/Down B depending on what the menu is on.
Honestly, I preferred the idea of menus for each special rather than RNG but here we are
I mean, unless there's something we don't know, this could hurt Hero's viability competitively. Granted, I'll still play Hero, but that's a little disheartening.

EDIT: I just had a thought: if that's a mistranslation error, and that they actually randomly picked spells from the games to put into the Command Window, then maybe you can select a loadout of spells before you begin the match? Like before you press the "Ready to Battle" button, and you select Hero, there'll be a large list in which you can pick four spells to use in battle before you start the match.
 
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If we look at this realistically, if Hero truly has an RNG menu then that doesn't mean he's screwed in his other moves.
He'll always have a recovery and two other moves that he can use at anytime. My main problem with this design is that it has much less versatility than what we had theorized. Instead of potentially taking longer/spending more MP for a better move/more situational move and planning out every single move you use, you instead have to open the menu and hope for the best that one of the options is something useful towards your situation, otherwise you'll be opening and closing the menu repeatedly throughout the game.
I hope its a mistranslation too, but we'll see how he plays exactly whenever there's another smash direct or whatever his gameplay will be showcased in.
 

Ayumi Tachibana

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OK, so this is the original text about the Hero's command inputs.

何らかの形でウィンドウが表示され、ランダムに出てくる呪文やワザを選べます。

The direct translation will be something like this.
"The window will be shown in a certain way, then you may select randomly appeared spells and moves."

To me, the most interesting is the "in a certain way" part.
May be Sakurai just being too-vague as usual, but this could be hinting that the command system is not directly tied to B moves.
I guess I should drop this here as well.
 

Chiroz

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If in fact Hero has an RNG menu (I really hope not for competitive’s sake), that would mean Frizz, Zap and Woosh (which were all shown before the menu and none showed any Thinking Pose and coincidentally are the 3 spells we can charge) are Neutral, Side and Up-B.

Our Down-B (Menu) would be rather useless though in most scenarios though. Having to open up a Menu to analyze which move to use between 4 random ones means that by the time we decide, the opportunity will be gone.

Unless there’s something like being able to “preview” your spells by opening the menu and then cancelling it and the spells don’t get “reset” until a spell is cast. This would allow you to see which ones you got before hand and pick them fast later on when the opportunity arises.

If it randomizes them every time you open up the menu then this special will be used very sparingly and mostly “fishing” for an specific special in very niche scenarios. That said many chars have 1 very niche special in their arsenal, so it isn’t the end of the world for Hero.
 

Teeb147

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I really hope this is either a mistranslation or bad wording.
And that what he meant by random was either “we randomly chose these spells “ or “a menu with the various spells appear”.

RNG will ruin the character. It’ll be the no-airgame to Little Mac levels of ruin.
Is there the original japanese column somewhere?

I kind of doubt they meant 'random' as in random spells pop up in the menu. I think they might've meant that random (or various) spells from the games were used in making the character.

Edit: I should've read the other post. I'm still on the fence about what's meant tho.


If it really is random, that'd be very weird for using spells quick.
 
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FeidaMack

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I imagine the spells would be shuffled once, and reshuffled per stock, or maybe per spell use, meaning you could probably cancel the menu after seeing it then make use of it later after knowing the available spells.
 

JDCabrera

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Just a thought about the menu thing.

What if each time you make the menu appear it just changes? With an option to quit the menu and try again with another set of spells?
 

Teeb147

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I only just saw ayumi's post. It looks like they actually used the english word for random (well in katakana). I'm really confused now as to how that would work. And it doesnt really make sense for recovery , tho depends how it really is. .. the thinking animation we saw for zoom makes it seem like there's a menu for that one too.. I'd expect it or woosh to always be there, but obviously i have no clue now.

I still think it could be something poorly worded. But we really need to see sakurai's gameplay details :/ We're supposed to see it before the release, so hopefully it'll be in early july so we dont have to wait so long with weird ideas about the spells lol.
 
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Chiroz

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Just a thought about the menu thing.

What if each time you make the menu appear it just changes? With an option to quit the menu and try again with another set of spells?
That would make 90% of the spells on the list completely useless in any competitive way. Might be fun to play as though.

If this is truly the case Oomph, Psyche Up and possibly Heal would be the only useful spells.

The reason being is that these spells are self buffs you can cast while the opponent is offstage. All other spells are meant to interact in some way with your opponent either by hitting him or avoiding being hit and adding so much startup to it (human reacion + analysis + input) would make them impossible to use in a correct situation.
 

JDCabrera

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I only just saw ayumi's post. It looks like they actually used the english word for random (well in katakana). I'm really confused now as to how that would work. And it doesnt really make sense for recovery , tho depends how it really is. .. the thinking animation we saw for zoom makes it seem like there's a menu for that one too.. I'd expect it or woosh to always be there, but obviously i have no clue now.

I still think it could be something poorly worded. But we really need to see sakurai's gameplay details :/ We're supposed to see it before the release, so hopefully it'll be in early july so we dont have to wait so long with weird ideas about the spells lol.
If the spell selection on the menu is indeed randomly chosen, I just feel that it will be possible to to cancel the menu anytime you don't find the spell you want.

Let's say for example that you want to use Kamikaze and you make the menu appear with a down b, but it however it isn't there. Well, maybe they could make it so you can turn the menu off by pulling another buttom action (up b or side smash for example).
After that, you could open the menu again to see if it appears.


It isn't the ideal thing, but I personally find it as one of the less problematic or awkward ways to make it work with a random factor.
 

Teeb147

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If the spell selection on the menu is indeed randomly chosen, I just feel that it will be possible to to cancel the menu anytime you don't find the spell you want.

Let's say for example that you want to use Kamikaze and you make the menu appear with a down b, but it however it isn't there. Well, maybe they could make it so you can turn the menu off by pulling another buttom action (up b or side smash for example).
After that, you could open the menu again to see if it appears.


It isn't the ideal thing, but I personally find it as one of the less problematic or awkward ways to make it work with a random factor.
I really really doubt it would be random everytime you open the menu. They are a bit better at catering to the competitive side. And even just casually it'd be confusing to always look for and see different spells. I really think we just dont know what's meant by it yet, if it really was used to mean random spells in the menu :/

It doesnt really dampen anything for me. I just really want to know what they actually meant :p
 
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Sunredo

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Well...brace yourselves. We'll have to see what kind of rng system it is. We know we can get menu's without recoveries because of the trailer menu not having it.
 

JDCabrera

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I really really doubt it would be random everytime you open the menu. They are a bit better at catering to the competitive side. And even just casually it'd be confusing to always look for and see different spells. I really think we just dont know what's meant by it yet, if it really was used to mean random spells in the menu :/

It doesnt really dampen anything for me. I just really want to know what they actually meant :p
Same.

I'm used to seeing my mains being mocked on the competitive community for not being top tier stuff, and even that doesn't stop me from winning many matches both online and offline with them.

I just play Smash for fun, and even if Hero was considered the worst character I would keep maining him since I've been waiting years to see Eight in Smash.
 

Teeb147

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Well...brace yourselves. We'll have to see what kind of rng system it is. We know we can get menu's without recoveries because of the trailer menu not having it.
up-b will still be a recovery regardless. There's no way they'd make that part random to the point that there's none.
 

JDCabrera

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What if the non-menu special attacks are weaker versions of the spells, kinda like Joker's specials when he doesn't have Arsene?

Maybe Zoom for example covers less distance when not used from the menu.
 

Chiroz

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According to Pereden’s tweet, if you reread it and look at the comments he is implying that it isn’t the spells that are random but rather that the act of the menu appearing is “at random”.

But from context Pereden believes what this means is sort of like saying “A menu with spells appears out of the blue!”

So when Sakurai says: “A menu with spells appears randomly” he means like it is magically brought to life, as opposed to an actual RNG factor.

Take into account that Pereden might be wrong, so we still don’t know, but it gives me hope that some people are reading it in a different way.
 
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OK, after having some time to think about it, I'm still disappointed, but no longer to the point where I think I'll openly dislike the character (barring some uncharacteristically dumb design decisions). I'm confident the menu will only be for one special (probably down B) since having four different menus that all potentially have the same spells would be dumb, and since we've seen that the frizz, zap, and whoosh lines don't require going through the thinking pose.

If there's some way to look at the menu without casting a spell and some way in which the same menu can persist (e.g. it doesn't change if you don't cast a spell, or you keep the same menu per stock), that is kind of a neat idea, trying to work with the tools you're given and having those tools change at certain times. The fact that you get four different options alleviates the pain of RNG a bit too, since odds are at least one of those options will be usable.

I still have a couple complaints though: the first is just a personal gripe, it's not the gimmick idea I had fallen in love with; I don't dislike this new gimmick, but I think it's a lot less cool. Second, MP seems a little superfluous now, since we already have a trade off for having so many options in the RNG; I'm also not sure if the non-menu spells will cost MP at this point (I kinda hope they don't). Lastly, and I think most importantly: if there's only one menu at all times, why is it not visible at all times? It would make so much more sense not to have to open it to see what options you have and then memorize those so you can use one when the opportunity arises.
 
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I really hope this is either a mistranslation or bad wording.
And that what he meant by random was either “we randomly chose these spells “ or “a menu with the various spells appear”.

RNG will ruin the character. It’ll be the no-airgame to Little Mac levels of ruin.
Nah, as long as his regular kit is reliable, I can't see random spells in the command ruining him. At most, it'll make one of his special moves a crapshoot.

I'm open to it. If there's a random element to the character I imagine that there's a way to control or manipulate it to get what you want. I'm just eager to learn how it works.
 
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Nah, as long as his regular kit is reliable, I can't see random spells in the command ruining him. At most, it'll make one of his special moves a crapshoot.

I'm open to it. If there's a random element to the character I imagine that there's a way to control or manipulate it to get what you want. I'm just eager to learn how it works.
I'm not sure if this applies, but Game and Watch's Judge is randomized, yet I've seen some amazing plays with him competitively.
 

Jade_Rock

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I guess having it open at all times would take up too much screen space. Especially in things like 8 player.

But overall, if this isn't the tap for spell and hold for menu thing, I can't see this character being a viable option. By the time you open the menu and click a spell, the opportunity to use it is most likely gone.

Like someone charging a smash? Oh wait let me open my RNG menu and hope for Kaclang and take the time to cast it. Wait Samus, can you not shoot the charge shot? Give me a second to cast bounce...
 
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Maybe choosing a spell would be like Simon's attack when you hold the jab button. Hold A, tilt the joystick to pick the spell, then release A to cast it. That could be what indirectly ties it to special moves (Which I believe was said in the interview)?
 
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