Moveset speculation

Sunredo

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According to Pereden’s tweet, if you reread it and look at the comments he is implying that it isn’t the spells that are random but rather that the act of the menu appearing is “at random”.

But from context Pereden believes what this means is sort of like saying “A menu with spells appears out of the blue!”

So when Sakurai says: “A menu with spells appears randomly” he means like it is magically brought to life, as opposed to an actual RNG factor.

Take into account that Pereden might be wrong, so we still don’t know, but it gives me hope that some people are reading it in a different way.
Multiple native speakers agreed Pereden was right with the translation so I doubt Pereden would be in the wrong here, or at least it doesn’t look that way.
As for what Pereden thinks it means, I’m pretty sure they think it’s RNG on what spells you get.
Of course this is all speculation based on what we have of the Famitsu article, nothing’s confirmed 100% yet.
 

Minik

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So im guessing the moves they showed off with 11 were neutral b frizz, side b zap and up b swoosh, all being the charge based moves while the menu is ALL down b, with none of the moves requiring some kind of charge to them.
 

Teeb147

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Multiple native speakers agreed Pereden was right with the translation so I doubt Pereden would be in the wrong here, or at least it doesn’t look that way.
As for what Pereden thinks it means, I’m pretty sure they think it’s RNG on what spells you get.
Of course this is all speculation based on what we have of the Famitsu article, nothing’s confirmed 100% yet.
I dont care too much if a few people think it's right. It's still not enough info to say for sure how it works. We need sakurai to clear up what he meant :p

On the plus side, there's plenty to speculate about how it could work. Personally I just want to wait to get official info because people make up way too many things based on very little.
 
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Jade_Rock

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What's Japan's reactions to this?

The one thing that doesn't make sense in the trailer is why did solo use bounce and psych up without the thinking animation if this is all mapped to one special? That doesn't sound possible unless you can switch fast enough to where the animation doesn't happen at all.
 
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What's Japan's reactions to this?

The one thing that doesn't make sense in the trailer is why did solo use bounce and psych up without the thinking animation if this is all mapped to one special? That doesn't sound possible unless you can switch fast enough to where the animation doesn't happen at all.
Maybe it's from a unique input, like how Inkling replenishes Ink? It doesn't have to be that particular input from that particular mechanic, but something else entirely.
 
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Here’s my thought and last hope at having some sort of control over hero’s moveset.

The spells are indeed random. But you can “store” at least one of them through another special.
 
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I dont care too much if a few people think it's right. It's still not enough info to say for sure how it works. We need sakurai to clear up what he meant :p

On the plus side, there's plenty to speculate about how it could work. Personally I just want to wait to get official info because people make up way too many things based on very little.
I'll take footage over a dubious translation of vague PR speak any day.

Look at every move with random elements and you see how the usage remains consistent even if properties don't. Even a misfired Green Missile is still useful in the same situations you'd use a normal one. Getting moves with completely different uses is atep too far.
 
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I'll take footage over a dubious translation of vague PR speak any day.

Look at every move with random elements and you see how the usage remains consistent even if properties don't. Even a misfired Green Missile is still useful in the same situations you'd use a normal one. Getting moves with completely different uses is atep too far.
Agreed.
Not that patterns can’t be broken but... as far as luck based moves go, their uses are always the same, in their weakest and strongest versions.

G&W: Judge Hammer
Luigi: Green Missile
Peach: Turnips
Dedede (Brawl) Waddle Dees/ Gordos
 

Minik

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I think the excuse with this rng would be that its choosable, you can choose not to do it and its gonna be telegraphed hard if the hero is busy checking its the right move. But yeah I hope its really not pure RNG. I would prefer just no RNG at all, if it has to change each time you use it I would at least be fine with it changing to the same menu layout list, like the one list that has sizzle would ALWAYS have sizzle and snooze etc and this goes for other lists. Like how Pikmin are ordered each menu would appear on the number of time you've cast down b.
 
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Agreed.
Not that patterns can’t be broken but... as far as luck based moves go, their uses are always the same, in their weakest and strongest versions.

G&W: Judge Hammer
Luigi: Green Missile
Peach: Turnips
Dedede (Brawl) Waddle Dees/ Gordos
It's not just Smash, that's the way I see randomness working in most fighting games. Whether it's the act of gathering evidence with Phoenix in MVC3, or Croagunk's specials in Pokken (Gunk Shot's variations may be very different, but other than the self-destruct they're all projectiles thrown from the air), they don't result in getting something completely unrelated to what you were trying to get when you initiated the move.

I think the excuse with this rng would be that its choosable, you can choose not to do it and its gonna be telegraphed hard if the hero is busy checking its the right move. But yeah I hope its really not pure RNG. I would prefer just no RNG at all, if it has to change each time you use it I would at least be fine with it changing to the same menu layout list, like the one list that has sizzle would ALWAYS have sizzle and snooze etc and this goes for other lists. Like how Pikmin are ordered each menu would appear on the number of time you've cast down b.
Funny you mention Olimar, because even when his lineup was randomized in Brawl his moveset was still pretty consistent regardless of the color at hand. And they still went to the trouble of reducing the randomness in 4.
 

Minik

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Honestly I think RNG could be gone on basically EVERY move in smash, from the big offenders like Turnips to little offenders like Pac-man galaga path, the only one that I can't think can be without RNG is judge because its made ALL around it. Ultimate newcomers have been without RNG so far which made me happy but its sad we might see what might be the biggest offender of RNG on a character I actually want to main.
 
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IMO there's nothing inherently wrong with RNG in fighting games or other competitive experiences, it's just that there are many more factors to consider when balancing them and making them healthy. I don't think smash has ever hit that healthy balance, but some thoughts on what healthy RNG might look like:

- It's never too weak or too strong an option; judge is annoying because it might do more damage to G&W than it does to his opponent, or it might be a OHKO. Both of those extremes are annoying for one of the players to have to go through.

- You have to deliberately "roll" for it. When Peach is pulling turnips, it's usually not because she specifically wants a stichface or bob-omb, it's because she just wants to throw turnips at you. It doesn't feel like she was taking any risks by pulling those turnips in the first place, which is why it's frustrating that one of those turnips happened to be a thing that can kill you.

- Both the user of the RNG attack, and their opponent have some way to react to the result. When G&W lands a 9 on you, your stock is gone. There's no counter play at all, your opponent got lucky and there was nothing you could have done about it. This is probably the most important rule and I would argue Peach's turnips are the only thing that abide by it right now.

And of course there's always balancing the rate that something happens with its reward and use frequency, which is a factor normal moves don't need to consider.

I think that if there is some way to see what the menu will be next time you use it, the menu will be the best example of good RNG we have thus far. If not, it will be clunky and awkward to the point of being unusable but for completely different reasons than how RNG usually ruins a move.
 

Minik

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Also big thing about Peach turnip is theres no BAD turnips, its either good or better. Wild gunmen is RNG based but you can never have 2 gunmen in a row unless you've cycled through them which while is BETTER than straight up RNG, is still tedious and awkward to keep track of for something thats ultimately not too drastic. We saw Peach F smash lose its RNG in TWO different ways which I don't get why that move in particular gets so much attention. The argument of RNG being hype when it happens can be true but, smash casual is literally built around it, characters themselves don't need to be random when stages and items are already RNG fueled. I really hope all this turns out to be a mistranslation lol
 
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Honestly I think RNG could be gone on basically EVERY move in smash, from the big offenders like Turnips to little offenders like Pac-man galaga path, the only one that I can't think can be without RNG is judge because its made ALL around it. Ultimate newcomers have been without RNG so far which made me happy but its sad we might see what might be the biggest offender of RNG on a character I actually want to main.
Believe what you want, all I see is Sakurai trying to talk about Hero's gameplay without revealing more than what was shown in the trailer and fumbling over his words in the process.

A move that KOs yourself doesn't seem like the kind of move you want distributed haphazardly.

IMO there's nothing inherently wrong with RNG in fighting games or other competitive experiences, it's just that there are many more factors to consider when balancing them and making them healthy. I don't think smash has ever hit that healthy balance, but some thoughts on what healthy RNG might look like:

- It's never too weak or too strong an option; judge is annoying because it might do more damage to G&W than it does to his opponent, or it might be a OHKO. Both of those extremes are annoying for one of the players to have to go through.

- You have to deliberately "roll" for it. When Peach is pulling turnips, it's usually not because she specifically wants a stichface or bob-omb, it's because she just wants to throw turnips at you. It doesn't feel like she was taking any risks by pulling those turnips in the first place, which is why it's frustrating that one of those turnips happened to be a thing that can kill you.

- Both the user of the RNG attack, and their opponent have some way to react to the result. When G&W lands a 9 on you, your stock is gone. There's no counter play at all, your opponent got lucky and there was nothing you could have done about it. This is probably the most important rule and I would argue Peach's turnips are the only thing that abide by it right now.

And of course there's always balancing the rate that something happens with its reward and use frequency, which is a factor normal moves don't need to consider.

I think that if there is some way to see what the menu will be next time you use it, the menu will be the best example of good RNG we have thus far. If not, it will be clunky and awkward to the point of being unusable but for completely different reasons than how RNG usually ruins a move.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with Judge. This isn't Delibird's Present, no matter what outcome G&W gets, it's bad for the opponent to get hit by it, so they should always try not to get hit by it. And it's not that hard to do due to it having short range and not great startup, which when coupled with the low odds of getting that 9, means it's only really used to style or in desperation.

Vegetable is an item projectile no matter what, so they can all be caught or reflected to turn them against Peach.

And Wild Gunman is used the same way regardless of the gunman you get; deter approaches and condition defensive responses.
 

Minik

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A move that KOs yourself doesn't seem like the kind of move you want distributed haphazardly.
The excuse there is that you just wont choose it on the menu, if this move was literally metrenome then yeah theres no way the move would exist but it being a randomised menu makes it seem like it can happen.
 
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Believe what you want, all I see is Sakurai trying to talk about Hero's gameplay without revealing more than what was shown in the trailer and fumbling over his words in the process.

A move that KOs yourself doesn't seem like the kind of move you want distributed haphazardly.



I'm not sure what you're getting at with Judge. This isn't Delibird's Present, no matter what outcome G&W gets, it's bad for the opponent to get hit by it, so they should always try not to get hit by it. And it's not that hard to do due to it having short range and not great startup, which when coupled with the low odds of getting that 9, means it's only really used to style or in desperation.

Vegetable is an item projectile no matter what, so they can all be caught or reflected to turn them against Peach.

And Wild Gunman is used the same way regardless of the gunman you get; deter approaches and condition defensive responses.
I admittedly forgot Wild Gunman even exists so my bad on that front. That's a reasonable example of acceptable RNG.

As for the other stuff: I agree that Peach's turnips are probably one of the better examples of good RNG, but they're still flawed. As I said, Peach isn't usually pulling turnips with the intent of outright killing you, but if she happens to get access to a great kill option when all she really wanted was a projectile, all the better.

With judge, judge 1 is not a desirable result, the damage is negligible, it doesn't cause the opponent to flinch so it's punishable on hit, and it does more damage to G&W than it does to the opponent. Moreover, the ends are just so extreme. When you lose because of a stray 9, it doesn't feel like you got outplayed in any way. Even if it is attached to a bad move, it's not a move that's so bad that it justifies being stronger than Warlock Punch. It's also worth noting that judge 9 breaks shields while all other judge variants are punishable on shield, so there is a difference in which ones you would use when if you had the choice (though it is minor).
 

Minik

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Anyway to take my mind off RNG, I was thinking that hopefully this character will be much better with grabs and throws than other sword fighters thanks to being well versed in fisticuffs. Could have some good animations that are much more powerful looking than typical sword fighters.
 

Jade_Rock

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Anyway to take my mind off RNG, I was thinking that hopefully this character will be much better with grabs and throws than other sword fighters thanks to being well versed in fisticuffs. Could have some good animations that are much more powerful looking than typical sword fighters.
Hmm. Haven't even thought about throws much. Honestly I want some actual puches and kicks in the regular attacks. We got down tilt and hopefully 1-2 more air attacks as those are usually faster than sword swings. But yeah, he should an above average sword throw game.

Joker has a great Dthrow, maybe something like that? Or did you mean something more powerful like Mario throws?
 

ThreeT

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Sorry I'm confused about one thing. It isn't completely RNG isn't it? You still have a selection between 4 moves that you get to choose. Even if it's random then at least you would be able to choose the best out of the four for the situation or plan based on it.
 

Jade_Rock

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Sorry I'm confused about one thing. It isn't completely RNG isn't it? You still have a selection between 4 moves that you get to choose. Even if it's random then at least you would be able to choose the best out of the four for the situation or plan based on it.
That's what it's sounding like, but by the time you do all that, I feel the opportunity to do anything would be gone.
 
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So thinking about how this might be semi-usable even if you can't know what the menu will be until you have to cast a spell: I'm thinking the only use for it is just after you launch your opponent and you have them in an edgeguarding situation. So spells that can ledge trap or restrict recovery path might be usable. Also would help a lot if you can turn around before casting a spell (or while you're in the thinking pose, in which case spinning around while thinking will be an amazing pseudo-taunt). Still definitely restricts the number of spells that will be useful, but I can see oomph, psyche-up, heal, maybe sizzle, and situationally kamikaze being used.

There are probably some ways they could make other spells useful too, if they're, like, insanely busted on their own.
 

Minik

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I feel like kracrackle slash has to be some sort of stored based move now if they want it to be remotely usable from an always changing menu. Also this all makes me wonder if maybe we have seen every spell they have.
 

JDCabrera

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Hero could be the lowest on every tier list and I would still make them one of my mains.

Eight has been someone who I deeply wanted to see in for years and the competitive scene won’t make me reject him.Besides, I win a lot of matches both online and offline with my mains, who a few are considered low tier by some people (:ultkrool: for example). Tier lists don’t really mean anything to me.


And yeah, we still have to wait and see how the moveset really goes as before judging. We only have to wait for the Hero’s update overview trailer to be clear about their moveset.
 
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Some people jump to conclusions waaay too fast.

It's fine to speculate, but keep in mind that you're all going with a theory.
Don't underestimate Sakurai and the team. They think about the competitive side and more. We'll see how it is and thought out once we get all the details and gameplay.
It's not so much that I'm confident we're going to get a bad menu system as it is I'm thinking about the it might have even if it's poorly implemented. I agree it's definitely worth a wait though, having a move be implemented in a way that's nigh-unusable for logistical reasons is completely unprecedented.

I should also clarify I wasn't really thinking about viability, I was thinking more along the lines of being fun to play. I'm no stranger to using low tiers.
 

ThreeT

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I still think Hero will remain a very good character due to it having Oomph and Psyche Up. These moves will probably increase his damage or knockback. Considering they are two moves instead of one, there is a pretty decent chance they will appear in the menu when you select it. These are great go to move when in most situations, and can turn the tables in a battle IMO.
 
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helloiamhere

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I cannot believe that the spells are random. That is some bull****. Imagine fighting snake or olimar or a belmont and instead of bounce you get a useless Kakrackle Slash.
 
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I cannot believe that the spells are random. That is some bull****. Imagine fighting snake or olimar or a belmont and instead of bounce you get a useless Kakrackle Slash.
That's not a solid fact. Like we've been saying, it might be a mistranslation. Let's at least wait for the overview trailer before we start talking **** about Hero.
 
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Well since we know that RNG was mentioned one way or another, I want to throw out a few theories of how exactly this menu could work. A lot of these are similar and could be incorporated into each other, but I'm just brainstorming here.

1) Complete RNG menu that refreshes on some condition (changing menu, using an ability or whatever. I'm grouping these theories as one)

2) RNG on menu where you store what your next down B will be/use it instantly (explains lack of thinking pose. Perhaps A selects the move and B stores it? Something like that maybe? In this case, the menu does not reappear until the move is used)

3) There are still menus on every special direction, however you have the option to store/use a special move straight away (same as 2nd theory but joins it with our old theory. In this case, the reference to RNG refers to Sakurai's weird wording choice and is not how it actually works)

4) RNG menu on Down B, but there's a set order (order is either always set at the same or is a random order but goes in a continuous cycle, e.g. let's say you have Frizz, Oomph, Snooze and Swoosh, when you eventually go through all the menus you'll end up back at this one and its a set loop)

5) RNG menu effected by MP (Amount of MP determines what special moves you get, for example your menu will never display higher MP skill moves when you're lower MP)
 

Chiroz

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Well since we know that RNG was mentioned one way or another, I want to throw out a few theories of how exactly this menu could work. A lot of these are similar and could be incorporated into each other, but I'm just brainstorming here.

1) Complete RNG menu that refreshes on some condition (changing menu, using an ability or whatever. I'm grouping these theories as one)

2) RNG on menu where you store what your next down B will be/use it instantly (explains lack of thinking pose. Perhaps A selects the move and B stores it? Something like that maybe? In this case, the menu does not reappear until the move is used)

3) There are still menus on every special direction, however you have the option to store/use a special move straight away (same as 2nd theory but joins it with our old theory. In this case, the reference to RNG refers to Sakurai's weird wording choice and is not how it actually works)

4) RNG menu on Down B, but there's a set order (order is either always set at the same or is a random order but goes in a continuous cycle, e.g. let's say you have Frizz, Oomph, Snooze and Swoosh, when you eventually go through all the menus you'll end up back at this one and its a set loop)

5) RNG menu effected by MP (Amount of MP determines what special moves you get, for example your menu will never display higher MP skill moves when you're lower MP)

There's a bit more theories, like random is per slot instead of per menu, so the first ability is always X, Y or Z. 2nd is always A, B or C and so on.

If menu is cancelable and only changes on spell cast then 1 and 2 are effectively the same (can be used in the same way).

I am assuming 3 is our old 4x4 theory but it stores the last spell you used like I was suggesting earlier in the thread? This would explain why both Frizz and Zap jump the thinking pose and Psyche Up (which we know isn't the first on it's list if it's a set list) also jumped the menu.

I don't even understand what the point of MP is if we can't really manage it because we don't know what our future spells are going to be

I really hope it's 4x4 and not RNG.





It's not so much that I'm confident we're going to get a bad menu system as it is I'm thinking about the it might have even if it's poorly implemented. I agree it's definitely worth a wait though, having a move be implemented in a way that's nigh-unusable for logistical reasons is completely unprecedented.

I should also clarify I wasn't really thinking about viability, I was thinking more along the lines of being fun to play. I'm no stranger to using low tiers.

Ganon U-Tilt, Warlock Punch, Falcon Punch, Yoshi Side-B, and so on and so forth. There are plenty of moves that are nigh unusable. There have been moves that have been added knowing very well that it will never be used in a competitive environment. Also at times there are moves meant to only work in chaos where everyone is not paying attention. Plus this move actually has a "fun factor" to it that those other unusable moves don't even have.
 
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