Moveset speculation

Jade_Rock

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Frizz is guaranteed to be 16 or less, there's a picture of Hero casting Frizz and his MP is at 84.
Was it frizz specifically and not a charged version? I feel like it should be less then 10. Like imagine if snake could only use 6 grenades a stock lol. Guess it still all depends on how to refill mp
 

RonNewcomb

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You guys don’t really understand what the problem is vs rushdown. Basically in order to deal well with rushdown you need a quick option that can be performed OoS and normally can hit opponents both in front and on the back so people don’t just cross you up. Things like a frame 8 f-tilt don’t really help that much against rush down. D-tilts also don’t really help vs rushdown because they can’t be performed OoS. Zelda’s best tool vs rushdown is her neutral B which is actually pretty good because of the intangibility and yet Zelda still struggles vs them.

You need something like a super quick aerial, u-smash or up-b to deal with rushdown well. Another option is having really good movement and use the movement to avoid being put into a pressure situation but I doubt Hero will be super mobile, I think he will be middle of the pack in terms of movement
Uh, no, OoS options are a last resort. First answer to rushdown is press a faster button. Second is move. Third is sit in shield. Last is doing an up-b OoS that's minus a billion on block. Fox has no up-b OoS, Luigi has no mobility. Neither have rushdown problems because of their f2 jab.

Which brings us neat as a pin to Hero's d-tilt and patterns.

Sword attacks have slower startup than brawler attacks, and Smash 4 Zelda's d-tilt is literally twice as fast as her jab. Zelda Ultimate mains still mourn that loss.

I think it's possible Hero's d-tilt is the fastest button in his whole moveset.
 

Jade_Rock

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Who knows? We could end up with a fast OOS aerial or a good up B as I still think there's two more. Is Swoosh too slow for this?

With know jab and all his tilts and besides dtilt they are not very fast. What about faster projectiles, or is zap probably too slow? Snooze(seemed to have a rather large hitbox according to the trailer)
 
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Teeb147

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Who knows? We could end up with a fast OOS aerial or a good up B as I still think there's two more. Is Swoosh too slow for this?

With know jab and all his tilts and besides dtilt they are not very fast. What about faster projectiles, or is zap probably too slow? Snooze(seemed to have a rather large hitbox according to the trailer)
projectiles wouldn't be fast enough to be better options than attacks. For up b, who knows, but we only saw lvl 2 (swoosh), maybe Woosh(lvl1) could be decent, but i have a feeling it wont be as fast as some other characters' up-b (as out of shield options).
We havent seen dair and fair, so i guess it's still possible.

In the end we'll just have to test everything out once it's time ;p
 

Chiroz

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Uh, no, OoS options are a last resort. First answer to rushdown is press a faster button. Second is move. Third is sit in shield. Last is doing an up-b OoS that's minus a billion on block. Fox has no up-b OoS, Luigi has no mobility. Neither have rushdown problems because of their f2 jab.

Which brings us neat as a pin to Hero's d-tilt and patterns.

Sword attacks have slower startup than brawler attacks, and Smash 4 Zelda's d-tilt is literally twice as fast as her jab. Zelda Ultimate mains still mourn that loss.

I think it's possible Hero's d-tilt is the fastest button in his whole moveset.
Dude Fox has one of the best OoS options with his Up-Smash. Luigi has the best combo breakers in the game, extremely good OoS options in his F-Air and B-Air plus one of the most punishing Up-B OoS which the rushdown char HAS to avoid going too deep or too ham.

Having good frame data on grounded normals can definitely help you keep away rushdown chars, but it won't help you get out of their pressure once they do get close, for that you need good OoS options which aren't exclusive to Up-B. OoS are Up-B, U-Smash, Aerials and sometimes even other specials if they are quick enough.

Good movement is a solution to rushdown but I have a feeling The Hero won't be incredibly mobile, and if we go by datamines he's going to be middle of the pack. Staying in shield is not a solution at all, that's what they want you to do as it will allow them to put you in worse situations right afterwards.




Was it frizz specifically and not a charged version? I feel like it should be less then 10. Like imagine if snake could only use 6 grenades a stock lol. Guess it still all depends on how to refill mp
It was Kafrizz, but it being 84 doesn't mean it will cost 16, it means it will cost anywhere below 16. I myself don't think that charging Frizz will make it cost more MP, there's too many scenarios to take into account and I don't believe they'd want the player to keep track of so many things.






There's still a 3f jumpsquat even when jumping OoS... how much is shielddrop when it's been tapped, again?
11 frames to shield drop.
 
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Teeb147

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Dude Fox has one of the best OoS options with his Up-Smash. Luigi has the best combo breakers in the game, extremely good OoS options in his F-Air and B-Air plus one of the most punishing Up-B OoS which the rushdown char HAS to avoid going too deep or too ham.

Having good frame data on grounded normals can definitely help you keep away rushdown chars, but it won't help you get out of their pressure once they do get close, for that you need good OoS options which aren't exclusive to Up-B. OoS are Up-B, U-Smash, Aerials and sometimes even other specials if they are quick enough.

Good movement is a solution to rushdown but I have a feeling The Hero won't be incredibly mobile, and if we go by datamines he's going to be middle of the pack. Staying in shield is not a solution at all, that's what they want you to do as it will allow them to put you in worse situations right afterwards.






It was Kafrizz, but it being 84 doesn't mean it will cost 16, it means it will cost anywhere below 16. I myself don't think that charging Frizz will make it cost more MP, there's too many scenarios to take into account and I don't believe they'd want the player to keep track of so many things.








11 frames to shield drop.
Dont forget grab out of shield :)
tho i guess everyone has that, but grab range helps ;p
 

Chiroz

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Dont forget grab out of shield :)
tho i guess everyone has that, but grab range helps ;p
True but grabs OoS were nerfed in this game, the quickest ones are frame 10 which is ok, but the majority of them are frame 12, not exactly "fast".
 
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Teeb147

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True but grabs OoS were nerfed in this game, the quickest ones are frame 10 with the majority of them being frame 12. Not exactly "fast".
Ok. I heard that but didnt know how exactly. Makes sense, though still pretty quick in a lot of cases. Just not good against character with very low landing lag, especailly sheik who has virtually none.

At least we know we'll have plenty of options to try out with this character :D
 

RonNewcomb

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11 frames to shield drop
Seriously?! I thought it was 7 for vanilla drop and like 3 for drop after the shield was hit. Did this all change in Ultimate or is my memory just that bad!?

Good grief I see why you were making such a big deal out of OoS options now.
 

Teeb147

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Seriously?! I thought it was 7 for vanilla drop and like 3 for drop after the shield was hit. Did this all change in Ultimate or is my memory just that bad!?

Good grief I see why you were making such a big deal out of OoS options now.
Shield dropping has always been pretty slow (i dont remember for brawl tho), it's one reason why wavedashing is so god-like in melee, because you can do it out of shield and follow up or reposition easily.
In smash 4 it was still very important but not as much as in ultimate because there's very little landing lag now, so you need faster options from shield to answer rush-down.

Also, if you get hit while shielding there's going to be shield stun depending on the move (the more powerful the more there is, I think), and that's changed a bit in ultimate too, so it's harder to punish aggression as much. Shield-grab was really good in smash 4 because it was faster too. Now it's not a free punish (which is good), and you're actually not in the greatest spot when defending. It's still good tho, but movement and positioning is really important (like dash dancing).

I dont know if the meta will be trying to shield less, it's still really important, but yeah oos is very useful when playing defensive.
 
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Chiroz

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Seriously?! I thought it was 7 for vanilla drop and like 3 for drop after the shield was hit. Did this all change in Ultimate or is my memory just that bad!?

Good grief I see why you were making such a big deal out of OoS options now.
It was 7 in Smash 4.

Being hit has never changed the amount of Shield Drop frames, the difference you might remember is that there is a certain amount of “shield startup” before you can drop it.

In Smash 4 this was 4 frames, which meant that the minimum amount of time you had to spend in Shield was 11 frames (7 to drop + 4 minimum startup before drop), but if you were already in shield for more than 4 frames dropping it was only 7.

In Smash Ult this minimum is 3, which means the minimum amount in shield is 14 frames, but dropping it after you are already in shield is 11.

And yes, this is exactly why having fast grounded normals doesn’t help that much vs rushdown chars. You need a fast aerial or Up-B/U-Smash if you want to reliably deal with rushdown. And even with a fast Up-B, the risk might be too high.

Look at Marth, one of the best Up-B OoS in terms of startup and hitbox, but the risk is extremely high so Marth is weak to rushdown.

Teeb post is pretty good in terms of explanation.
 
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Teeb147

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Wait, so even though Marth has a good up b oos, he's still weak to rushdown? Who is good at dealing with rushdown?
I think anyone who has a good fast aerial out of shield. Like Yoshi's nair is pretty fast and has good range, so it's a really good tool against rush down, especially because of great aerial mobility. (But suffers from not having a good grab, so maybe it balances out)

Marth's fair is really good but it's still slow before the sword swing hits in front, so i think that's why marth has a weakness to it. But honestly it's not.. overly big of a weakness. It's a fast sword character overall.

There's also exceptions like snake for good b moves, because the grenade is just so ****ing good.
 
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Interesting topic, no wonder I feel like I’m sucking at this game. I haven’t really made an effort to consider OoS options (other than with characters that I’m already used to, line Samus).
Maybe I’m still on auto-pilot shield-grab mode.
This has been eye-opening.
Now I’m hoping Hero has a pretty fast dtilt. Although it is a bit unorthodox of an oos option. I could maybe practice that with zelda?
 

Teeb147

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Interesting topic, no wonder I feel like I’m sucking at this game. I haven’t really made an effort to consider OoS options (other than with characters that I’m already used to, line Samus).
Maybe I’m still on auto-pilot shield-grab mode.
This has been eye-opening.
Now I’m hoping Hero has a pretty fast dtilt. Although it is a bit unorthodox of an oos option. I could maybe practice that with zelda?
Well like was said, the ground moves arent really good for if youre shielding, because you have to drop your shield to do them, and it's not as fast as upsmash, up-b, and jump aerials.

But if you can predict the other player then yes you can time well your ground moves or dash dance to get out of the way and go after them when they miss. (instead of shielding)
 
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Well like was said, the ground moves arent really good for if youre shielding, because you have to drop your shield to do them, and it's not as fast as upsmash, up-b, and jump aerials.

But if you can predict the other player then yes you can time well your ground moves or dash dance to get out of the way and go after them when they miss. (instead of shielding)
Hopefully we can Whoosh out of shield with a quick tap of Up+B (see, this is why I don’t like memory menu, what if we Zoom out of there instead?). Could generate enough distance to go back to zoning, or, somehow put us above an opponent in hit stun for a follow up (assuming we don’t enter complete free fall state).
 

Teeb147

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Hopefully we can Whoosh out of shield with a quick tap of Up+B (see, this is why I don’t like memory menu, what if we Zoom out of there instead?). Could generate enough distance to go back to zoning, or, somehow put us above an opponent in hit stun for a follow up (assuming we don’t enter complete free fall state).
Yeah I'd like that as well. I'm kind of iffy on it being fast enough, but also we dont know how woosh acts on the ground yet, so who knows. At the worst, jumping out of shield and then using it in the air could be good if there's a platform to get to, the tornado being in the way of them following.

There'll be tons to experiment :D
 

Chiroz

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Wait, so even though Marth has a good up b oos, he's still weak to rushdown? Who is good at dealing with rushdown?
Up-Bs are normally “last resort” OoS options as most of them put you in a huge risk if your opponent baits them out.

Say you are Luigi and I tap your shield, you can just f-air OoS and if I baited you out your F-Air is so fast that I can’t punish you with whatever I want, I probably only have very specific things I can punish you with. Whereas, if you’re Marth, your only OoS option is Up-B, it’s good, but if I happen to bait it, you’re eating any combo I want or a half charged smash. So the risk of getting out of pressure is eating a combo or dying, which means you need to be careful.

Our best bet right now is to have a F-Air that is both quick and also starts from below Hero (best angle to start at would probably be around -30/330) going upwards, or to have a quick Up-B that has some unique property that makes it safer than most.




Interesting topic, no wonder I feel like I’m sucking at this game. I haven’t really made an effort to consider OoS options (other than with characters that I’m already used to, line Samus).
Maybe I’m still on auto-pilot shield-grab mode.
This has been eye-opening.
Now I’m hoping Hero has a pretty fast dtilt. Although it is a bit unorthodox of an oos option. I could maybe practice that with zelda?
D-tilt is good for spacing and walling out but it won’t help us deal with pressure once the opponent is already in. We need a good aerial or some unique Up-B.
 
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Teeb147

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I really like having good oos options, but it's not the end of the world if that doesn't end up being the case. I think the hero having so much diversity with spells, along with a sword, can make for lots of zoning and mix ups. You have to play to your strengths and make the best of it ;)
Still, the talk does make me very curious about down air and f-air.
 
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I really like having good oos options, but it's not the end of the world if that doesn't end up being the case. I think the hero having so much diversity with spells, along with a sword, can make for lots of zoning and mix ups. You have to play to your strengths and make the best of it ;)
Still, the talk does make me very curious about down air and f-air.
Heh, you're right. And don't forget, if all else fails, we still have PK Fir- I mean, Sizzle. We'll be fine. :D

Up-Bs are normally “last resort” OoS options as most of them put you in a huge risk if your opponent baits them out.

Say you are Luigi and I tap your shield, you can just f-air OoS and if I baited you out your F-Air is so fast that I can’t punish you with whatever I want, I probably only have very specific things I can punish you with. Whereas, if you’re Marth, your only OoS option is Up-B, it’s good, but if I happen to bait it, you’re eating any combo I want or a half charged smash. So the risk of getting out of pressure is eating a combo or dying, which means you need to be careful.

Our best bet right now is to have a F-Air that is both quick and also starts from below Hero (best angle to start at would probably be around -30/330) going upwards, or to have a quick Up-B that has some unique property that makes it safer than most.






D-tilt is good for spacing and walling out but it won’t help us deal with pressure once the opponent is already in. We need a good aerial or some unique Up-B.
Right.. Well, we still have Fair and Dair, although no dair has ever been used oos to my knowledge. What's the best Fair in the game that could be used this way? I'd say Marthcina, but you guys already covered why it's not exactly ideal.
 
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Chiroz

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Heh, you're right. And don't forget, if all else fails, we still have PK Fir- I mean, Sizzle. We'll be fine. :D


Right.. Well, we still have Fair and Dair, although no dair has ever been used oos to my knowledge. What's the best Fair in the game that could be used this way? I'd say Marthcina, but you guys already covered why it's not exactly ideal.
Mostly it’s about how fast can you get a hitbox at the 330 degree angle. Marth’s F-Air is “ok” in speed but it starts at the complete opposite angle and only reaches 330 degree at the very end, making it slow for OoS.

Luigi’s is good, Sheik, Sonic (although this one has a ton of risk like Marth Up-B), Wario.

The problem with quick F-Airs it that you can still take pressure from cross ups and ambiguous approaches. If people purposely start landing behind you, you won’t be able to punish them well.
 

Teeb147

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Heh, you're right. And don't forget, if all else fails, we still have PK Fir- I mean, Sizzle. We'll be fine. :D


Right.. Well, we still have Fair and Dair, although no dair has ever been used oos to my knowledge. What's the best Fair in the game that could be used this way? I'd say Marthcina, but you guys already covered why it's not exactly ideal.
Joker's d-air is actually pretty good. Palutena's is ok but nair is usually better, but dair can be better vs smaller characters. Some other characters have good ones but it's true i dont see them as much. Pikachu's is useful even if it's slower. I can't think of any besides joker that's a better option right now, but it can definitely be a thing.
 
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RonNewcomb

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Uh yeah don't use d-tilt OoS, use it instead of shielding, if at all.

Or just shield and take the throw. Few chars get throw combos anymore so sometimes it's better than opening yourself up for an even worse punish.

Thx both of you for updating me on mechanics. I'm still stuck in 4 mode.
 
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Teeb147

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Shield grabbing is still good a lot of the time too. Depends on the move and timing but still very useful.

Peach and Snake. Mostly Peach who can float sideways on top of her opponent during. Oh and Lucario. Those dairs stop upward momentum.
Oh yeah, good if can't reach or for mix ups. (edit: i find lucario kind of tough to use. myself. and snake has other good tools)

also dont forget about not double posting.
 
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Chiroz

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Shield grabbing is still good a lot of the time too. Depends on the move and timing but still very useful.



Oh yeah, good if can't reach or for mix ups. (edit: i find lucario kind of tough to use. myself. and snake has other good tools)

also dont forget about not double posting.

Yea, frame 10-12 isn’t bad, it’s just subpar. Grabs are still ok against most of the non-top tiers in the game.

Snake’s D-Air is really good OoS. Huge hitbox, frame 3.
 
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Teeb147

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Yea, frame 10-12 isn’t bad, it’s just subpar. Grabs are still ok against most of the non-top tiers in the game.

Snake’s D-Air is really good OoS. Huge hitbox, frame 3.
Faster than i thought for sure. I dont use snake so i just know how super good the nades are :p

and i think for grab it still depends on which move they use and the spacing. Like, never use it against a float canceled nair, but if it's fair and they're close enough then you could grab. (+also any laggy situation or if they shield.)
 
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Slime Master

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Been thinking about it more and I'm a lot less confident that MP will regenerate automatically over time than I used to be. I feel like the precedence we have for that isn't very strong, the stuff that gradually generates on a spectrum only includes ROB's fuel and Wario waft, everything else is one (or, in the case of Robin, several) use, then wait till it fully regenerates, then get one more use. The things that do auto-regen are fairly special cases in that you usually won't be specifically stalling for them for long periods of time. Wario players will, but they still need to interact with the other player in order to get them into waft's kill range, and the charge time it takes for waft to be useful is long enough that it's unreasonable to exclusively stall the whole time you're waiting for it. We can't really have that slow of a charge time because we're too crippled without MP for that to be useful (and I'm pretty confident we will recharge in some meaningful way, otherwise sizzle would have to be absurd to justify spending 1/5 of our MP).

Really, it just seems like poor game design for our primary method of MP regen to be "just wait" because it will cause players to try and stall and avoid interacting with the opponent for extended periods of time, which is the opposite of what you want from a fighting game. I think a manual recharge method a la Inkling or recharging when dealing damage are both reasonable methods, I'm beginning to think the former is more likely, but we'll see.
 

Teeb147

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Been thinking about it more and I'm a lot less confident that MP will regenerate automatically over time than I used to be. I feel like the precedence we have for that isn't very strong, the stuff that gradually generates on a spectrum only includes ROB's fuel and Wario waft, everything else is one (or, in the case of Robin, several) use, then wait till it fully regenerates, then get one more use. The things that do auto-regen are fairly special cases in that you usually won't be specifically stalling for them for long periods of time. Wario players will, but they still need to interact with the other player in order to get them into waft's kill range, and the charge time it takes for waft to be useful is long enough that it's unreasonable to exclusively stall the whole time you're waiting for it. We can't really have that slow of a charge time because we're too crippled without MP for that to be useful (and I'm pretty confident we will recharge in some meaningful way, otherwise sizzle would have to be absurd to justify spending 1/5 of our MP).

Really, it just seems like poor game design for our primary method of MP regen to be "just wait" because it will cause players to try and stall and avoid interacting with the opponent for extended periods of time, which is the opposite of what you want from a fighting game. I think a manual recharge method a la Inkling or recharging when dealing damage are both reasonable methods, I'm beginning to think the former is more likely, but we'll see.
Yup, I doubt it'll be regenerating in a passive way that would encourage running away a lot. I think it was ryumo that mentioned that when we were talking about a possible mp system like a month ago.

This is pretty new stuff for smash though, so i really dont know how they'll do it. But I do think the ink method could be interesting too maybe. Shield+B using a sorcerer's ring. But it could also be totally different from what we know up to now.
 

Jade_Rock

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So let's see

Cloud- can charge manually, take and deal damage
Little Mac-take and deal damage
Robin-multiple uses then wait for recharge and have a full charge
Joker-deal damage, time and can kinda charge manually
Inkling-manual charge
Wario-just time

If I missed something sorry, but looking at these, the most common is deal damage at 3/6
Manual charging is also 3/5 if we count joker.
Time is 3/6(or 4/6 with Robin) and
taking damage is 2/5 and is kinda on joker since he can lose arsene while taking damage.

Are there other meters/mechanics I'm missing?

There is not a clear winner, but I believe dealing damage will be it. If we know his 4 down Specials already (and it's more than likely we do with heal most likely being one) Down special is what is used to manually charge(expect inkling), and I doubt he will have a manual charge+heal.

Dealing damage makes the most sense for simplicity and balancing sake. Auto regen? Maybe. Very small amount though like 0.5/sec or something. But some people seem to doubt this one as well. Run away to heal rinse and repeat sounds boring and campy. Dealing damage makes him aggressive.
 
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So let's see

Cloud- can charge manually, take and deal damage
Little Mac-take and deal damage
Robin-multiple uses then wait for recharge and have a full charge
Joker-deal damage, time and can kinda charge manually
Inkling-manual charge
Wario-just time

If I missed something sorry, but looking at these, the most common is deal damage at 3/6
Manual charging is also 3/5 if we count joker.
Time is 3/6(or 4/6 with Robin) and
taking damage is 2/5 and is kinda on joker since he can lose arsene while taking damage.

Are there other meters/mechanics I'm missing?

There is not a clear winner, but I believe dealing damage will be it. If we know his 4 down Specials already (and it's more than likely we do with heal most likely being one) Down special is what is used to manually charge(expect inkling), and I doubt he will have a manual charge+heal.

Dealing damage makes the most sense for simplicity and balancing sake. Auto regen? Maybe. Very small amount though like 0.5/sec or something. But some people seem to doubt this one as well. Run away to heal rinse and repeat sounds boring and campy. Dealing damage makes him aggressive.
Joker doesn't get any meter from dealing damage, it's the other way around as he only gets it from taking damage (including a reduced amount from his teammate being damaged), and time only if he's at a percent or stock deficit. A Joker playing perfectly may actually never get Arsene in the whole match, unlikely but possible.

I don't really see aggression being too effective except against certain zoners with Bounce. He's just not very fast moving. And like in a classic JRPG, being slower than your opponent means you have to attack second most of the time. Carefully mix your swordplay and sorcery to counter your opponent's moves.
 

RonNewcomb

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Maybe he gets a set amount of MP back on causing a KO.

Regarding some missing rings around some spells, maybe he's using an item instead. So, no MP cost on some abilities.

:shrug:
 

Jade_Rock

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Oh sorry, yeah my bad on joker. Anyway, I guess without the circles, zoom is probably 0mp so he can have a free recovery, then again Robin does not have that luxury.
 

Slime Master

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Boingburg, SL
Oh sorry, yeah my bad on joker. Anyway, I guess without the circles, zoom is probably 0mp so he can have a free recovery, then again Robin does not have that luxury.
I think elwind has the lowest recharge time of Robin's spells, as well as the most uses barring only spamming uncharged thunder. I think the durability on Robin's upB is there more for consistency and not really meant to be a significant weakness.
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,774
I think elwind has the lowest recharge time of Robin's spells, as well as the most uses barring only spamming uncharged thunder. I think the durability on Robin's upB is there more for consistency and not really meant to be a significant weakness.
I've actually already been gimped as robin because of it though. It's not a huge weakness, but someone that knows how to take advantage of it can make it seem like a real weakness.

I do think zoom shouldn't cost much, but all the spells have different mp costs than the game, and psyche up usually doesn't have any, so... maybe zoom does in smash. But If I had to guess though I think all up-b spells will cost less. maybe 4-5 mp or something.. hopefully less ;p
 
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