Moveset speculation

Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
3,627
Location
France
#41
I hope he uses his shield for F-Air or D-Air, I want more shield moves, lol.



Animations are not the end all be all. Depending on their hitbox, angle, knockback, frame data, Eerdrick's run speed, jump height, fall speed, air drift, moves will be used in completely different ways.
Yeah, it's only a matter of animations so far (although I don't see the dash attack as weak, so it will probably really close to Link's). When semi-clones share moves and don't play the same way, we can only expect Hero to be different!

Regarding the possibly missing spells, I see a mention of Heal. I believe we've not see this animation in the trailer, and the effects are those of healing items. Does the pose looks like healing spells in DQ?


 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,636
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
#42
Yeah, it's only a matter of animations so far (although I don't see the dash attack as weak, so it will probably really close to Link's). When semi-clones share moves and don't play the same way, we can only expect Hero to be different!

Regarding the possibly missing spells, I see a mention of Heal. I believe we've not see this animation in the trailer, and the effects are those of healing items. Does the pose looks like healing spells in DQ?



We saw this animation once when Bounce ended (Which would imply he can taunt during Bounce). It's speculated to be a taunt, but there's no confirmation. Definitely has a healing effect around him on that pic but that could be due to many other reasons.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
3,627
Location
France
#43
We saw this animation once when Bounce ended (Which would imply he can taunt during Bounce). It's speculated to be a taunt, but there's no confirmation. Definitely has a healing effect around him on that pic but that could be due to many other reasons.
It is not the same actually, albeit similar. During bounce, he raise his right hand and his sword is sheated, and it's speculated to be Psyche Up previously on this thread. Here, it's his left hand, and he still hold his sword.

But knowing how sneaky devs are sometimes with screenshots, it could also be Hero using an assist trophy / special flag while being healed, they are totally capable of doing that... x)
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,636
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
#44
It is not the same actually, albeit similar. During bounce, he raise his right hand and his sword is sheated, and it's speculated to be Psyche Up previously on this thread. Here, it's his left hand, and he still hold his sword.

But knowing how sneaky devs are sometimes with screenshots, it could also be Hero using an assist trophy / special flag while being healed, they are totally capable of doing that... x)
Interesting, yea I see the differences now. And it definitely could be Psyche Up. How many taunts have we seen also?
 
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
3,627
Location
France
#47
Interesting, yea I see the differences now. And it definitely could be Psyche Up. How many taunts have we seen also?
I think two, pointing the sword up and having a slime making you lose balance (love this one).

Anyone notice how Kamikazee is cast straight out of ironize?
Wondering if you can cast anything out of ironize.
I believe it's only the same pose. Between a metal dude and someone who is going to explode it's easy to tell which move is what!
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,150
Location
Ecuador - South America
3DS FC
5301-0890-0238
NNID
punchtropics
#48
I have a feeling we won’t be able to recover MP until we’re back on the stage with the bar full.

Also just realized how we’re going to end up being math chads for maining Hero.
Already having a hard time deciding what moves to use depending on the situation and the matchup? Cool! Now add some math calculations on the spot!

Man this character will be fun. And I hate math, lol.

Also, I really REALLY want Whistle as one of his commands.
At least to summon a pesky Slime on the opponent. Even if it has 1HP.
 
Last edited:

S-bow64

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
58
#49
Regarding the possibly missing spells, I see a mention of Heal. I believe we've not see this animation in the trailer, and the effects are those of healing items. Does the pose looks like healing spells in DQ?
In DQ XI, I believe the healing animation is an arm sweep from left to right but I can't recall what the "arm in the air" is. Items maybe ?
 
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
14
#50
Ok so I never looked at the smash site for his moves before but I think we have a guarantee as to another one of Hero's special moves:


This move straight up looks like Heal. More specifically, the animation matches closer to Moreheal but I doubt it will heal too much.
There's no other information on this move right now, but I can say for certain that Heal is one of the special moves as part of his menus.

As for the animation, it changes between games. In Dragon Quest 8 its the arm sweeping left to right (as with all spells). If I remember DQXI correctly, the hero just raises his arm like this.
 
Last edited:

S-bow64

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
58
#51
It does look like some kind of healing but that's not how the animation look but I don't think it's supposed to be consistent with DQ XI anyway. I mean we saw Zap and Snooze and the animation for these spells in XI are not like what they look like in smash.

In DQ8 each character have their own animation that they use for every spell and in XI healing spells and the like really is the arm sweep.

What that means is, that it could very well be Heal even if the animation is different. Isn't that the most recurrent spell used by heroes in DQ ? (those who can actually use magic)
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,636
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
#52
It does look like some kind of healing but that's not how the animation look but I don't think it's supposed to be consistent with DQ XI anyway. I mean we saw Zap and Snooze and the animation for these spells in XI are not like what they look like in smash.

In DQ8 each character have their own animation that they use for every spell and in XI healing spells and the like really is the arm sweep.

What that means is, that it could very well be Heal even if the animation is different. Isn't that the most recurrent spell used by heroes in DQ ? (those who can actually use magic)
Having healing magic is incredibly common in RPGs (might or might not have been popularized by DQ itself, but the point of my post is that any RPG fan would expect a healing spell as part of the kit) and I would assume that it would make it in tbf.
 

S-bow64

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
58
#53
What I meant is rather that protagonists in DQ that tend to have magic usually have Heal and not about RPG in general.

Aside from Swoosh and maybe Bounce ( the male protagonist in heroes can use it in heroes 2 tho) all the spells they seem to have in smash were part of each MC's kit so Heal wouldn't be too surprising.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,150
Location
Ecuador - South America
3DS FC
5301-0890-0238
NNID
punchtropics
#54
The fact that we have Heal, supports my idea that MP will not recharge unless you lose a stock.

At least we’d have like 100MP to burn.

What I’m curious about is Bounce. People point out that Solo was taunting right after casting bounce. Does this mean you can play regularly while Bounce is active? Acting like a brief Franklin badge?
Would be amazing and true to the games.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
#55
The fact that we have Heal, supports my idea that MP will not recharge unless you lose a stock.

At least we’d have like 100MP to burn.

What I’m curious about is Bounce. People point out that Solo was taunting right after casting bounce. Does this mean you can play regularly while Bounce is active? Acting like a brief Franklin badge?
Would be amazing and true to the games.
I think that was actually a Psyche Up, not a taunt during Bounce.
Unless the Psyche Up animation is a taunt, but we already know it's part of the spell list.
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,636
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
#56
The fact that we have Heal, supports my idea that MP will not recharge unless you lose a stock.

At least we’d have like 100MP to burn.

What I’m curious about is Bounce. People point out that Solo was taunting right after casting bounce. Does this mean you can play regularly while Bounce is active? Acting like a brief Franklin badge?
Would be amazing and true to the games.
I doubt there's no way to recover MP. With the costs that have been shown that would mean that we can only cast 4-6 specials per stock depending on which ones we pick. Even if all Up-Bs cost 0 MP that would still be incredibly hindering.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
#57
Heal would make sense since I believe every DQ hero has had that spell. The only reason he might not is that real healing (like, more than a few percent at a time) is generally a lame/anti-fun mechanic in fighting games, but maybe the MP + cast time will mitigate that.

I am interested in how his moveset (especially specials) turns out. I agree that the most likely theory at this point is that his specials will each have their own spell list. Having the full multi-page spell list on one move (neutral or down B) would be unwieldy. There are some inconsistencies with this theory though from what I could see in the trailer. The spells in the first half (Frizz, Zap, and Swoosh) didn't display the spell names the way the rest of the spells did. Sure, they were using cinematic camera angles without UI, but so were some of the spells used later in the trailer that did display their names. Also, as best I can tell, the second half (named) spells all used the Chudat pose during startup (except the ones where the startup was cut off) and the first half spells did not. There's not enough evidence to make a judgement off of this, but there could be a fundamental difference between the way the named and unnamed spells work.

Anyway, I'm a huge DQ fan and I'm very excited. I'm literally unretiring from Smash for this.
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#58
Considering how much MP the spells use, I guess that there'll be a way to regenerate mp, because else it would only allow for around 5 spells per stock.

If it's like I'd originally thought about, it could be on attacks. Dont really know tho ;p
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
#59
Considering how much MP the spells use, I guess that there'll be a way to regenerate mp, because else it would only allow for around 5 spells per stock.

If it's like I'd originally thought about, it could be on attacks. Dont really know tho ;p
If they stick close to canon, I'd imagine either it regens slowly on its own or one of his unannounced spells is Drain Magic. Or maybe he gets some limited use MP restoration items on a taunt or something. Or, worst case scenario, it doesn't regen and you only get ~5 spells per stock, and maybe some of them (like Zoom) cost 0 MP.
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#60
If they stick close to canon, I'd imagine either it regens slowly on its own or one of his unannounced spells is Drain Magic. Or maybe he gets some limited use MP restoration items on a taunt or something. Or, worst case scenario, it doesn't regen and you only get ~5 spells per stock, and maybe some of them (like Zoom) cost 0 MP.
Yup those are all possibilities, though my gut is sitll that it would regen on regular ('A' button) hits. Regening slowly on its own would do for too much evasive gameplay, but even if it is like that I just like being able to recover mp ;p

I really hope sakurai doesnt wait overly long to detail everything
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
682
#61
Yup those are all possibilities, though my gut is sitll that it would regen on regular ('A' button) hits. Regening slowly on its own would do for too much evasive gameplay, but even if it is like that I just like being able to recover mp ;p

I really hope sakurai doesnt wait overly long to detail everything
That seems the most likely to me. If he has no method of regen besides dying, that's a huge weakness I'm sure.

He's gonna be extremely satisfying to play for people who love jrpgs. I'm excited for him and I've never played DQ.... and now I have to.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,150
Location
Ecuador - South America
3DS FC
5301-0890-0238
NNID
punchtropics
#62
So ZeRo made a moveset analysis video.

Ftilt looks interesting. Seems Hero hits with his shield first and then slashes.
I wonder if the first strike (with the shield) has super armor frames or at least blocks out projectiles.

Could provide a little more options to approach spammers.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
682
#63
I can see it having armor frames. It reminds me of MK's f-tilt. It also slides him forward a little bit so it could be a nice closer. I like it but something tells me F-tilt wont be a killing option. His F-smash looks good though. Lots of range and looks strong. I love his back air too. Stage spikes will definitely be a thing for him I think.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,150
Location
Ecuador - South America
3DS FC
5301-0890-0238
NNID
punchtropics
#65
Personally I kind of like how he has a few moves from other swordsmen in the game. Makes me feel like he’s a master swordsman who knows all of their styles, and blended them all into one moveset. ;)

I want to practice his neutral a lot, without Magic first. Once I get the hang of it, I’ll start practicing magic.

This might be the first time I actually use training room! I want to really direct every single move Hero has to offer.
 

Minik

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
171
#66
I think that Kacrackle Slash and the Thunder based moves are actually moves that enhance the sword with an element, to make your next sword attack have it. This would take away the use of your shield. The reason I think that is from what ive seen where some moves seem to be the same but without a shield on them and the fact that the description of Kacrackle Slash is enhance your sword have the power of ice for an attack, however, unlike in DQ where its a single turn move, in smash it would be a straight up enhancer move. Heres images.
1.png
2.png
3.png
4.png
6.png
5.png
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
#67
I think that Kacrackle Slash and the Thunder based moves are actually moves that enhance the sword with an element, to make your next sword attack have it. This would take away the use of your shield. The reason I think that is from what ive seen where some moves seem to be the same but without a shield on them and the fact that the description of Kacrackle Slash is enhance your sword have the power of ice for an attack, however, unlike in DQ where its a single turn move, in smash it would be a straight up enhancer move. Heres images.
Wait, where are the last two screenshots from? Is there more footagte?
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,636
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
#69
I think that Kacrackle Slash and the Thunder based moves are actually moves that enhance the sword with an element, to make your next sword attack have it. This would take away the use of your shield. The reason I think that is from what ive seen where some moves seem to be the same but without a shield on them and the fact that the description of Kacrackle Slash is enhance your sword have the power of ice for an attack, however, unlike in DQ where its a single turn move, in smash it would be a straight up enhancer move. Heres images.

The first 2 pictures are different swings. Look at how he holds the sword and also look at the sword trail after the move, it's a different angle. Zap has no hitbox on the Sword at least for Level 1 and 2, you can see Erdrick performing level 1 Zap at the end of the trailer and hitting Snake with a projectile that goes through him.

Now those loast 2 pictures, those are really interesting, where did you get that last picture?
 

Minik

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
171
#70
The first 2 pictures are different swings. Look at how he holds the sword and also look at the sword trail after the move, it's a different angle. Zap has no hitbox on the Sword at least for Level 1 and 2, you can see Erdrick performing level 1 Zap at the end of the trailer and hitting Snake with a projectile that goes through him.
I think the elemental based moves will change in animation at least slightly because of not having a shield, F tilt might lose the shield bash part of it because of it. The reason Kacrackle slash has a different sword trail is because the trail is ice based rather than plain. I think the way Zap works is that its a typical charge based move that can be used to slash and shoot a projectile, but it also provides a passive buff when fully charged, indicated by the sword phsyically glowing that you can use on another move instead, like up smash. When the move is used again at full charge it will shoot off like Luminary does in the trailer. Erdricks sword when starting the final smash is also glowing which seems normal, but then he powers up the sword AGAIN so I think he actually went into the final smash with a charged up sword already ready.
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,636
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
#71
I think the elemental based moves will change in animation at least slightly because of not having a shield, F tilt might lose the shield bash part of it because of it. The reason Kacrackle slash has a different sword trail is because the trail is ice based rather than plain. I think the way Zap works is that its a typical charge based move that can be used to slash and shoot a projectile, but it also provides a passive buff when fully charged, indicated by the sword phsyically glowing that you can use on another move instead, like up smash. When the move is used again at full charge it will shoot off like Luminary does in the trailer. Erdricks sword when starting the final smash is also glowing which seems normal, but then he powers up the sword AGAIN so I think he actually went into the final smash with a charged up sword already ready.
I doubt they'll make 3 sets of animation for each normal in the game, I think Kacrackle Slash and F-Tilt are just different moves. Also why would you not have a shield when your move is powered up by an element?

As for Zap, that's a really interesting idea, I'll try and analize that picture a bit more.

Edit: Also, for the final smash bit, when that clip is shown he is already doing his Final Smash. Effects such as those (Incineroar revenge, Arsene) are hidden for during cinematic final smash animations as far as I am aware.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
3,627
Location
France
#73
Oh, those press kit pictures are interesting!

For Zap, my personal guess would be that you can angle the spell, and it's not a buff. If you look closely, while it looks a lot like the Up-Smash, his right hand is slightly not the same, holding the sword differently.

We can also see the intermediate variant of the fire spell here, shooting two fireballs.
https://www.ssbwiki.com/images/d/df/SSBUPressKitHero3.jpg
 
Last edited:

Minik

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
171
#74
I think the same move can slightly differ in animation, bare in mind Robin has 2 up smashes. I think its also why most of the moves are seen as basic sword swipes, because they can be powered up to be unique. Also heres Kacrackle Slash having the shield pop back on after the animation, which gives it credit to it being an alternate f tilt. You'll have to watch the trailer because smashboards wont let me add images for some reason but it happens in literally 1 frame.
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#75
I think the same move can slightly differ in animation, bare in mind Robin has 2 up smashes. I think its also why most of the moves are seen as basic sword swipes, because they can be powered up to be unique. Also heres Kacrackle Slash having the shield pop back on after the animation, which gives it credit to it being an alternate f tilt. You'll have to watch the trailer because smashboards wont let me add images for some reason but it happens in literally 1 frame.
I do remember seeing electrical effects on what seems to be a normal move, but i think it may just be another lightning skill that has that animation.
I'm not saying some of stuff youre saying isn't possible, it could be, but i really think you're making a lot of jumps based on very little that we know.

It's worth looking into it more, but i really think they would've showed us if attacks could be imbued. I actually talked about elemental fource a while back and how it'd be cool to have different elemental effects on attacks, but it would still take quite a bit of work for it, and I think they'd shown us if it was a thing. But hey I'm open to sakurai showing us even more cool stuff when he details them.
 

Minik

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
171
#76
I do remember seeing electrical effects on what seems to be a normal move, but i think it may just be another lightning skill that has that animation.
I'm not saying some of stuff youre saying isn't possible, it could be, but i really think you're making a lot of jumps based on very little that we know.

It's worth looking into it more, but i really think they would've showed us if attacks could be imbued. I actually talked about elemental fource a while back and how it'd be cool to have different elemental effects on attacks, but it would still take quite a bit of work for it, and I think they'd shown us if it was a thing. But hey I'm open to sakurai showing us even more cool stuff when he details them.
I can't think of literally anyone in smash who has SLIGHTLY different animations for different moves which is why I think this. Up smash seems rather basic in its base form, but if it has the potential to literally shoot out thunder then that would explain why its a thrust upward, with up tilt being an arc above them. I know it seems strange to have a mechanic thats not even really in DQ but having a mechanic based on a description of a move from DQ, to make it more interesting than a one and done ice slash move FEELS like Sakurai. If you told me the character was gonna have Oomph AND Psyche Up I wouldn't believe it but we know they do.
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#77
I can't think of literally anyone in smash who has SLIGHTLY different animations for different moves which is why I think this. Up smash seems rather basic in its base form, but if it has the potential to literally shoot out thunder then that would explain why its a thrust upward, with up tilt being an arc above them. I know it seems strange to have a mechanic thats not even really in DQ but having a mechanic based on a description of a move from DQ, to make it more interesting than a one and done ice slash move FEELS like Sakurai. If you told me the character was gonna have Oomph AND Psyche Up I wouldn't believe it but we know they do.
We haven't seen all the spells. There could be an up-b spell that's zapple or a lightning skill that could be like that. (like some that are in dq11)

I've talked about elemental imbuing, with the fource skills, but that's less known to those heroes. It would be super cool tho.
 
Last edited:

CostLow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
388
Location
Germany
3DS FC
2509-2293-9367
#78
Quick thought. I've been trying to wrap my mind around a few things, and I think I have a theory now. Some of the specials look to either have charge elements or take extra time to cast the spell for. If choosing a spell locks you in to a really long casting animation wouldn't that greatly hinder the fighter? Also, if it does, how much sense does it make to release such a weak DLC concept that players would need incentive to pay for?

I don't think the menu appears for every special. That would make him overly cumbersome because you would either press any special and then have to select the move to use or you would have to hold the special button to access the menu instead. That just doesn't make sense. So, here's my hypothesis.

The menu is opened only by pressing neutral special and then choosing a spell from a rotational list. All other specials have a standard move only. For instance, uSpc will always give the one with tornados (which is charged like diddy), side special gives the Fire one (also chargeable), down special is the standard shield stance (mp charge similar to joker). Furthermore, the spells that boost attacks likely just add a special effect to certain non-special attacks.

Thoughts?
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#79
Quick thought. I've been trying to wrap my mind around a few things, and I think I have a theory now. Some of the specials look to either have charge elements or take extra time to cast the spell for. If choosing a spell locks you in to a really long casting animation wouldn't that greatly hinder the fighter? Also, if it does, how much sense does it make to release such a weak DLC concept that players would need incentive to pay for?

I don't think the menu appears for every special. That would make him overly cumbersome because you would either press any special and then have to select the move to use or you would have to hold the special button to access the menu instead. That just doesn't make sense. So, here's my hypothesis.

The menu is opened only by pressing neutral special and then choosing a spell from a rotational list. All other specials have a standard move only. For instance, uSpc will always give the one with tornados (which is charged like diddy), side special gives the Fire one (also chargeable), down special is the standard shield stance (mp charge similar to joker). Furthermore, the spells that boost attacks likely just add a special effect to certain non-special attacks.

Thoughts?
Either they can be charged, or become stronger versions when tension is up, or there's higher versions of them on other buttons. It's hard to tell right now.

I think the menu will be quick to animate and someone doesnt need to browse it to press quickly directions and either releasing the button or pressing again will make the spell happen.
You missed that zoom is likely up-b as well. Side-b is likely to be zap as well (the lightning one). And down b has multple possibilities too. they showed a lot of spells in the trailer. So the side specials have multiple ones too. That or they're changeable somehow. hard to tell ;p
 
Last edited:

CostLow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
388
Location
Germany
3DS FC
2509-2293-9367
#80
Either they can be charged, or become stronger versions when tension is up, or there's higher versions of them on other buttons. It's hard to tell right now.

I think the menu will be quick to animate and someone doesnt need to browse it to press quickly directions and either releasing the button or pressing again will make the spell happen.
You missed that zoom is likely up-b as well. Side-b is likely to be zap as well (the lightning one). And down b has multple possibilities too. they showed a lot of spells in the trailer. So the side specials have multiple ones too. That or they're changeable somehow. hard to tell ;p
Have you really played Shulk? Quick menu or not, that is a lot to keep up with if there's only a few options. Turn it into a thing you do for every special and the character becomes unplayable.

I'm pretty certain the menu only appears with one specific command and then the alternative spells are unleashed from the menu only. The one menu list we saw didn't even seem to have the same type of specials. There was a combination of up, down, neutral, and side special variants. This doesn't explain the way they are "upgraded" but there's no way the developers would give you the ability to kamikazee rapidly. I'm willing to bet that the options change according to chance and that the list changes either every stock after using each one.
 
Top