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Move Set: Changes, Custom, Nerfs, and More!

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
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:4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight:
What really makes it weird is that Famitsu said:
"he makes use of high speed and his long reach. In exchange for his strong point of attacks, his small body is very easy to send flying."

First of all, from what I saw with Meta Knight in the images, it seems that his reach is not that long. In fact, here's examples:
Aug-13-2014.jpg
metknight-wii-u.png


While it seems bigger at first Meta Knight's sword, in the first image, is pointing towards our direction just a tad, so it gives us an illusion of it being large. However it, like Brawl, is about the same size, if not a bit smaller. Now what was weird is that Famitsu said Meta Knight had a long reach, though while it's somewhat true with his disjointed hitboxes, it's still rather false due to Meta Knight having to come in extremely close (compared to Link, Ike and Marth) to really have any type of hit. While fast, yes, his speed is still predictable.

The second thing that strikes me off is the fact that it says he sis strong. However, again, looking at Meta Knight's attack damage, it's rather weak, and with possible nerfs in the new game, he could actually be much weaker in terms of damage output. And yet, he could also be weaker in terms of knockback output as well.

And now you have to go back to the image of Famitsu:
.jpg

As going with the topic of Meta Knight's attack, Mach Tornado, it seems as if the tornado is still within its animation, possibly meaning that it's a single fire attack with high knockback, not one of multiple attacks. It seems Famitsu got this one wrong, and even his upward special attack, where it says "While the initial attack has a high launching power, opponents hit by the following attack are blown even further away."

This doesn't seem to hold any feasibility due to the fact that most attacks that last within a long period of animation always tend to get weaker. Take for example Mario's N-Air; the longer it stays, the less damage and knockback it will go for. In fact, going to Brawl, only the initial few frames of Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop actually give tremendous knockback, and if hit in most other parts of the attack, it would have less knockback as it went on. Same goes with Meta Knight's neutral aerial, as the initial frames do more knockback than the ending ones.

A last example would definitely be the image of Shuttle Loop itself. The characters don't seem to have much knockback put onto them, though they may be low damage, it looks like the knockback that the damage does is decreased, and by seeing that it's the FD version of Battlefield, it gives it more plausibility that its knockback is worse. If at zero percents, here's my analysis comparison:

Shuttle Loop - Brawl: High damage with high knockback and fast recovery time, and a glide for extra mobility and recovery.
Shuttle Loop - SSB4: Lower damage and moderate knockback with a lower recovery time, though has two hits (possibly two loops) and can no longer glide, hindering his recovery. The attack itself seems to have poor range and probably won't be able to connect the second hit if the opponent flies far on first contact.
:4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight:
 
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CombatScouter

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
150
I can definitely tell that Meta Knight will be OP based on a few pictures of his specials; after all, Marth and Fox have been the same since Melee, right? /s

Seriously, why do I see so many people overreacting already? All we know is that his specials are visually the same as before, and that's it. We know next to nothing about the more technical changes to his moves like startup lag, ending lag, power, knockback, or anything else that really matters. For example, while Meta Knight with a shield breaker may seem scary on paper, the move could end up as punishable as the Bowser Bomb (which is also a shield breaker now).

This post isn't directed at anyone in particular btw, I'm just tired of seeing the same assumptions based on a few screenshots.
 

RanserSSF4

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Even though I did like MetaKnight in Brawl, I do agree that he was way too broken in Brawl, and I don't like playing OP characters in fighting games that much. I think the speed of metaknight should stay the same, but I do want him to get nerfed a little up to the point where he's not as OP/used as much as before, but still a good character. The nerfs to his gliding being removed and shuttle loop gives me a bit of hope, but we will have to wait till release.

Other than that, just like xD1x, I will definitly try him out to see how much he "might" have changed.
 

Ragna22

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
904
I'd be lying if I said I didn't want the downward thrust down air from Project M but since I know that'll never happen, I think it'd be cool if at the end of his forward tilt combo he shoots a sword beam like in the Kirby games.
 

Downdraft

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
556
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Huntsville, AL
Nerf the following:
-Shuttle Loop(low knock back)
-Down Smash(slower)
-Nair(less damage and slight lower knock back)
-Tornado(doesn't suck the opponent in. Make it like Project M tornado)

Remove his transetting priority in all of his moves and MK all of a sudden becomes balanced.

Mk should be a small, light character who can combo greatly and be a aerial killer and sort of of a ground based character but he should have very low knock back to balance him out.

Giving him both powerful aerial game and ground games as well as powerful recovery was just too much!
I wonder how PM Meta Knight would fare in Smash 4. I feel like his PM changes would do well if they were adjusted to Smash 4.
 

ChickenWing13

Smash Lord
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Apparently Kirby is the best character as far as the E3 build of the Sm4sh demo. I'd imagine this means that MetaKnight will be even better. I can't see him getting dumbed down at all. Especially since this game is very similar to Brawl. Only thing I can see happening are his moves losing some of their properties from the last game. Other than that he'll most likely be the same "broken" character.

My only wish is that he had dual-wielding swords for twice the amount of damage.
 
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LiamMail

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 14, 2014
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283
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View attachment 22386
If we take a look at Meta Knight's profile box in this photo, we can see that Famitsu is explaining how Meta Knight is balanced in this game. Here it is, "he makes use of high speed and his long reach. In exchange for his strong point of attacks, his small body is very easy to send flying." Well, there you have it. Meta Knight will still be quick, and have strong sword priority in the new Smash like in Brawl, in exchange for being very light.
but how can metal be light... sorry i'm too serious lol v
 

MasterOfKnees

Space Pirate
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Apparently Metaknight is worse now. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen
This guy played the new demo and he listed Metaknight as one of the most nerfed. How do you guys feel about this?
That Ben guy was pointed out as a fraud, stated things that were proven to be wrong like not being able to disable items and Diddy not having a Dixie color-swap.

Either way, Meta Knight has still been nerfed according to Zipzo. Mach Tornado is easier to DI out of, Shuttle Loop is apparently a weaker Dolphin Slash, and he has noticeable start-up and landing lag on his moves. It's only justified though, and I'm personally pretty happy with it.
 

Ultima777

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
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145
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Florida
That Ben guy was pointed out as a fraud, stated things that were proven to be wrong like not being able to disable items and Diddy not having a Dixie color-swap.

Either way, Meta Knight has still been nerfed according to Zipzo. Mach Tornado is easier to DI out of, Shuttle Loop is apparently a weaker Dolphin Slash, and he has noticeable start-up and landing lag on his moves. It's only justified though, and I'm personally pretty happy with it.
Really? Well that is a downer. He said Robin and Shulk were top tier material, that got me excited because I wanted to play those 2. He also said Ike was improved a little. :/
 

Sol0ke

Smash Ace
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Well Zipzo said Robin and Shulk were really good too

Not to mention that he also said MK felt like a Melee character and definitely wasn't bad.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
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So how hard did the nerf hammer hit Meta Knight? I don't want him to be as OP as he was in Brawl but I hope he doesn't get nerfed to the point of uselessness. I was planning on maining this guy back in Brawl when he was revealed but I gave up on that since I dislike playing as OP characters, though this time I plan on playing him a lot.
 

Batavus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
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Yes.
So how hard did the nerf hammer hit Meta Knight? I don't want him to be as OP as he was in Brawl but I hope he doesn't get nerfed to the point of uselessness. I was planning on maining this guy back in Brawl when he was revealed but I gave up on that since I dislike playing as OP characters, though this time I plan on playing him a lot.
Well, according to Zipzo, MK is definitely not as OP as he was in Brawl, but he's still a solid character.

Oh, and hi y'all.
 

MasterOfKnees

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Yeah, Meta Knight is going to be solid regardless, they have to nerf him waaaay beyond what we've heard for him to actually suck.
 

Sol0ke

Smash Ace
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Also, according to him, he kept his Dair and said he didn't notice any changes.

You know, the ultimate gimping tool?
 

Redcard

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Messages
43
The changes make it seem like Meta Knight will go from being broken to being viable and on the higher spectrum of mid tier, or lower spectrum of high tier, and I'm really excited about that. I won't feel bad if I want to play as him, and he'll still be fun.
 
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ChemicalExperiment

Smash Cadet
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We all know that Meta Knight was way too overpowered in Brawl, but has he been nerfed for Smash 4? Now that the game is out in Japan, we have the answers, I just haven't heard them yet. So, for those of you who have the game, or seen it, has meta knight changed? Is he still as brutal as in Brawl? Is he a viable character, or have they decreased his performance too much? I would really love to hear, because I haven't seen anyone talk about this since the game's release two days ago.
 

ChemicalExperiment

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Meta Knight is still a good character, definitely not as OP in Brawl.
So, what's changed? Today I've found out from many people that he isn't op anymore, but I still don't know specifics. Any idea of how his moveset and stats are different?
 

Sol0ke

Smash Ace
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Startup is longer on many of his moves
Up B is shuttle loop twice without the glide
Some attacks weakened

And that's pretty much it.
 

ChemicalExperiment

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Startup is longer on many of his moves
Up B is shuttle loop twice without the glide
Some attacks weakened

And that's pretty much it.
Thanks! I assumed it was something subtle like that, but I just wanted some confirmation. I have a ton of questions now that the game has come out.
 

New_Dumal

Smash Lord
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Someone has some videos of Meta Knight in Smash 4 ?
M2K,ZeRo or Nairo should post a video with some new combos or explaining all his changes.
ZeRo usually build videos like this, I'm waiting for it. MK always will have a space in my heart, even nerfed.
 
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Master Raven

Smash Master
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I'll just copypaste what I wrote on FB:

- Tornado hitbox is smaller and it no longer beats almost every move like in Brawl. It's super easy for characters to hit you out of it now (I kept getting hit out of it by Ganon ftilt and aerials, and Duck Hunt Dog's projectiles would always hit me out of it too among other things). According to Ksizzle it's also not good at poking shields anymore (I didn't have enough time to test that aspect out).

- His sword is smaller so he has to get in even closer. Plenty of characters will solidly outspace him now.

- Nair is *nowhere near* as strong as it was in Brawl. The hitbox is smaller so it's harder to hit consistently with it, especially because of how easy it is for characters to cross you up in this game. It is not a bad move though, just less reliable now but still solid if you use it intelligently.

- Uair speed has been reduced to half of what it was in Brawl. No more turbo mode juggles lol. It's around the same speed as it is in PM. Again it's still a good move regardless, but more fair now.

- Not really a nerf I think, but I noticed his Ftilt and Dtilt don't push him forward like it did in Brawl.

That's about it. Now in spite of these nerfs, he's still solid, and the game engine actually compensates for some of his nerfs. For instance he can get a guaranteed followup out of Dthrow with Fair now, and I'm confident that as the meta develops, MK will probably be one of the better characters at comboing. Because of the buff on rolls, his back roll actually got better (and the animation is cool haha). In terms of movement he's just about as fast as he was in Brawl. He still has IASA frames on his Ftilt. Because of the ease of pivoting attacks that means that you can pivot Ftilt for free and I think that's going to be a VERY good spacing tool for him. His new Up B is actually pretty good and KOs better than most moves I've seen in the game, and its vertical trajectory is good. His jab is better now as it has a bigger hitbox and the finisher is pretty decent.
 
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ksizl4life

Smash Hero
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Aug 3, 2008
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This character is very solid. Ive been playing him and Little Mac the most.

AERIALS: Dair Fair and Bair are still good, albeit with a bit less range on them. Dair is still great for gimping, and thats big because trust me when I tell you, edgeguarding is not looking to be a big thing in this game. Almost every character has a great recovery and can make it back. Dair can stop that. Bair doesnt autocancel anymore and has lag. Up air still comes out extremely fast but has more recovery, you can still string or frame trap into nair or something else. Nair got super nerfed, does way less damage and knockback. I rarely use it.

TILTS: D tilt is the same, F tilt has a lot more knockback, I would say it's a nerf because it's harder to follow up and chase after it now. Jab is good because of the ender and because DI is less prominent in this game. Up tilt seems the same but has a bit shorter range.

SPECIALS: Tornado does get beaten out by a lot of stuff but I only use it to catch airdodges and sweep people off the ledge when they're hanging on there, just like I did in Brawl so I feel like nothings changed. Does around 12-14 damage and no one I've played with has been able to DI it. Megaman might be able to rush cancel out of it tho. Never approach with this move, it does nothing to shields. Theres a ton of lag if you dont autocancel it(and you wont be able to, shield is too close to the ground and you can only auto cancel by being high enough so that when MK is falling, he does one full prone spin as hes falling to the ground) and you WILL be punished.

Drill rush has startup, it lost its pop effect at the end of the move for the most part. It only happens when you go into the ground with it. As soon as you touch the ground, even if you just started the move, the move will end and you'll pop up and go into prone state. As for actually connecting with it, looks exactly the same as Brawl.

Shuttle loop is awesome. Has great kill power and great vertical range. At higher percents you can dash attack to jump up B, then fast fall to land and keep the pressure on as they come down, if they didn't die. It's deceptively fast.

Dimensional Cape is MKs best special move. This is your biggest mobility option, it feels faster. They increased the kill potential of the strike. It's all around buffed and great.

THROWS: His down throw is still really good. I love doing down throw, dash attack, jump tornado for a nice 30 percent at lower percents. You can go into fair too but it's all reactable. Look for using fair or dash attack after it. F throw is the same as Brawl as well, just chase them. Up throw is the same too.

SMASH ATTACKS: F smash is your strongest kill move. It kills around 90-100. freeze effect when you hit them kinda like Marths tipper, pretty neat. Down smash has a new animation but serves same purpose. I think its faster but does less damage and less knockback. It's your go to tool in case you couldnt edgeguard off stage and your opponent drops off the ledge and regrabs it, they wont have invincibility so you can just snuff them out with it. Always be on the lookout for a ledge regrab in this game if they dont come on stage, its very punishable.

Meta Knight is very solid. Tons of fun and I feel rewarded for playing intelligently.
 

ksizl4life

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
5,222
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NJ/NY
This character is very solid. Ive been playing him and Little Mac the most.

AERIALS: Dair Fair and Bair are still good, albeit with a bit less range on them. Dair is still great for gimping, and thats big because trust me when I tell you, edgeguarding is not looking to be a big thing in this game. Almost every character has a great recovery and can make it back. Dair can stop that. Bair doesnt autocancel anymore and has lag. Up air still comes out extremely fast but has more recovery, you can still string or frame trap into nair or something else. Nair got super nerfed, does way less damage and knockback. I rarely use it.

TILTS: D tilt is the same, F tilt has a lot more knockback, I would say it's a nerf because it's harder to follow up and chase after it now. Jab is good because of the ender and because DI is less prominent in this game. Up tilt seems the same but has a bit shorter range. Dash attack in this game are very good and MKs is no exception. Fast and puts them in the perfect position for pressure/followups. Rolls are also very good in this game, and MKs rolls are the same if not better this time around.

SPECIALS: Tornado does get beaten out by a lot of stuff but I only use it to catch airdodges and sweep people off the ledge when they're hanging on there, just like I did in Brawl so I feel like nothings changed. Does around 12-14 damage and no one I've played with has been able to DI it. Megaman might be able to rush cancel out of it tho. Never approach with this move, it does nothing to shields. Theres a ton of lag if you dont autocancel it(and you wont be able to, shield is too close to the ground and you can only auto cancel by being high enough so that when MK is falling, he does one full prone spin as hes falling to the ground) and you WILL be punished.

Drill rush has startup, it lost its pop effect at the end of the move for the most part. It only happens when you go into the ground with it. As soon as you touch the ground, even if you just started the move, the move will end and you'll pop up and go into prone state. As for actually connecting with it, looks exactly the same as Brawl.

Shuttle loop is awesome. Has great kill power and great vertical range. At higher percents you can dash attack to jump up B, then fast fall to land and keep the pressure on as they come down, if they didn't die. It's deceptively fast.

Dimensional Cape is MKs best special move. This is your biggest mobility option, it feels faster. They increased the kill potential of the strike. It's all around buffed and great.

THROWS: His down throw is still really good. I love doing down throw, dash attack, jump tornado for a nice 30 percent at lower percents. You can go into fair too but it's all reactable. Look for using fair or dash attack after it. F throw is the same as Brawl as well, just chase them. Up throw is the same too.

SMASH ATTACKS: F smash is your strongest kill move. It kills around 90-100. freeze effect when you hit them kinda like Marths tipper, pretty neat. Down smash has a new animation but serves same purpose. I think its faster but does less damage and less knockback. It's your go to tool in case you couldnt edgeguard off stage and your opponent drops off the ledge and regrabs it, they wont have invincibility so you can just snuff them out with it. Always be on the lookout for a ledge regrab in this game if they dont come on stage, its very punishable.

Meta Knight is good. Tons of fun and I feel rewarded for playing intelligently.
 

KassandraNova

Smash Master
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Metaknight also felt way heavier to me when I played him. He falls faster and tornado isn't safe on shield, neither is shuttle loop. He's still going to be a great character because he can still go off stage and gimp characters, it's just more difficult than it was in Brawl because of new ledge mechanics obviously, and numerous characters having amazing recoveries.
 

KenboCalrissian

YouTube: SewerBuddies
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My biggest question about Meta Knight is this: How many of his attacks are transparent transcendent? This was the biggest headache for me in Brawl, but at least it sounds like neutral B can finally be stopped.
 
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WaveDashCash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
91
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Lodi, OH
Hopefully META Knight no longer PWNS the META game. I can't describe how many times I've had to fight this guy in Online mode. He showed up in every other match I played, sometimes more than 1 at a time! It was just ridiculous how they made him so op last time. Ugh.
 

TheFadedWarrior

Smash Journeyman
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Am I the only one who thinks Meta Knight is still really good? Yeah, his range is small and his recovery is bad (at least for recovering), but he's still great imo
 

obeymalleo

Smash Ace
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Am I the only one who thinks Meta Knight is still really good? Yeah, his range is small and his recovery is bad (at least for recovering), but he's still great imo
You are not the only one at all. Meta Knight is my main in Brawl and this game, and I like his playstyle in this game. On top of that, Meta Knight is still a force to be reckoned with.
He'll probably be one of the more solid characters on the roster.
 

Curlz

Smash Lord
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Apr 30, 2009
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Lafayette, LA
In case this hasn't been posted yet, I figured I'd go ahead and post this for everyone even if it's just for reference.

Here is the damage output for each move when it is completely refreshed. Tests performed on Mario in Training Mode on Battlefield.

Jab:
•1% Per Jab
•2% Finish
(Tapping A in front of opponent will do a 7% total combo [5 jabs->1 Finish)

Forward Tilt:
•FT1-2%
•FT2-2%
•FT3-3%
(7% total)

Down Tilt:
•5%

Up Tilt:
•5%
(7% on tipper)

Forward Smash:
•16% (Uncharged)
•17%-19% (Partially Charged)
•22% (Fully Charged)

Down Smash:
•DS1-7% (Uncharged)
•DS1-8% (Partially Charged)
•DS1-9% (Fully Charged)
•DS2-10% (Uncharged)
•DS2-11%-12% (Partially Charged)
•DS2-14% (Fully Charged)

Up Smash:
•US1-3% (Uncharged)
•US2-2% (Uncharged)
•US3-4% (Uncharged)
(Uncharged Up Smash hits for 9% total)
•US1-3% (Partially Charged)
•US2-2% (Partially Charged)
•US3-4%-6% (Partially Charged)
(Partially Charged Up Smash hits for 10%-11% total)
•US1-4% (Fully Charged)
•US2-2% (Fully Charged)
•US3-5% (Fully Charged)
(Fully Charged Up Smash hits for 12% total)

Neutral Air:
•5% (Sour Spot)
•7% (Sweet Spot)

Forward Air:
•FA1-2%
•FA2-1%-2%
•FA3-3%
(Forward Air hits for 6%-7% total)
(FA2 is a spike depending if you Fast Fall or not. If it spikes, it does 1%. If it does not spike it will do 2%. It is possible to spike your opponent AND connect FA3 and if this happens they will be sent flying instead of being Spiked)

Back Air:
•BA1-2%
•BA2-1%
•BA3-4%
(Back Air hits for a total of 7%)
(BA2 is a Soft Spike)

Down Air:
•6%

Up Air:
•5%

Forward Throw:
•3%
(45 degree trajectory)*

Back Throw:
•10%
(40 degree trajectory)*

Down Throw:
•7%
(50 degree trajectory)*

Up Throw:
•10%
(80 degree trajectory)*

* - Vector Dependent

Neutral Special:
•1%-2% Per Hit (Mashable)
•3% Finish

Side Special:
•1% Per Hit
•3% Finish

Down Special:
•14% (Slashing Upwards/Away from Face//Backwards Movement)
•15% (Slashing Downwards/Away from Body//Stationary)
•16% (Slashing In Front/Across the Body//Forward Movement)

Up Special:
•USp1-6% (Aerial)
•USp1-9% (Grounded)
•USp2-6%

Please let me know if there is anything I messed up on as there is room for human error. Hope this helps guys.
 

Skye Kitsune

Smash Rookie
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I like meta knigt in smash 4, i feel like he rewards smarter play. Lots of people are trying to play him like Brawl MK which is the problem, once you are used to him not being crazy overpowered he is a pretty solid character.
 

Katakiri

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So I was messing around with MK in training mode, looking for the kill set-ups this character so desperately needs and I managed to find something very useful:

Down-Tilt puts characters into spinning-knock-back very low to the ground at high percents (about 90% to 130% depending on the character's weight) which puts them in a knock-down-state when they land which is where you can catch them for a killing blow. They can tech the landing if they react fast enough however so it's not guaranteed.

You can land anything you can use out of dash attack with the set-up and, since this set up only works at high percents, the ideal moves to use are Grounded Shuttle Loop or Dimensional Cape. There's not enough time to stop dashing and Smash Attack nor does MK's walking speed reach them fast enough.

I like Dimensional Cape to be flashy :yeahboi: but using the Shuttle Loop option gives you a sort of hit-confirm where you have enough time to watch for a tech before you have to Up-B. It might sound like Shuttle Loop is always the best option because of that but Shuttle Loop is also one of MK's best damaging moves with D-Throw > Up-B and Dash Attack > Up-B being so potent for damage so the move could be stale and not KO, in which case Dimensional Cape probably will. Just keep that in mind.

And if they tech, we just Nado on-top of them for a free 22%.

So we have combos from throws until like 80+% and kill set-ups off our fastest tilt. Who said we got nerfed? :denzel:
 
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