Move Set: Changes, Custom, Nerfs, and More!

[Nintendrone]

MK doesn't need all nerfs; I think MK could use a slight buff to Dimensional Cape to make it more practical for recovering/attacking.

EDIT: I'd also think that it'd be interesting to retool Tornado into a chargeable (non-savable) projectile fired in a straight line from MK's sword, like he does with Tornado in the Kirby games, only much smaller.

 

[SmashBroski]

I'd be really happy if pic-related is his new D-air.

Spoiler

Also crossing my fingers for some Return to Dreamland influence (attacks, dash, etc.)

 

[Sunnysunny]

How about a d-smash that isn't a 2 frame kill move. That'd be pretty nice. Or a 2 frame n-air that doesn't do 21 damage. pretty rad. Or maybe a nado that can actually be DI'd out of, doesn't have near complete invulnerability, doesn't eat shields for ****ing breakfast, that's more punishable then just 10 frames of lag.

#salt

But really, nerfing his up-b is atleast a step in the right direction. and the new ledge mechanic addresses his perfect planking problem so we don't have a repeat of what happened in brawl. Infact that's great that he can no longer make it safe and he actually has to commit to it on the ground. The biggest problem with it in brawl was it had invincibility on start up, making it a great reversal but also it could be made safe with the glide attack, making it just a "Why the hell not?" move.

That's basically metaknight in a nutshell in brawl. "Why the hell not throw out this move?" too many of his best moves were perfectly safe to throw out when spaced properly, and his mobility was high enough to easily weave in and out of the opponents attack range making it almost always a losing battle in the spacing game. There was near no risk to any of his actions. It also doesn't help that he shield pokes like a madman, so just being within his attack range would eventually get you killed.

Making tornado a bit more punishable, reducing the damage of n-air, and adding slightly more end lag to his aerials would be a nice transition I think. I honestly think he should stay insanely quick, and keep his gimp game. Really the biggest problem with him is the lack of commitment. Just fix that and he'd be fine.

 

[Ussi]

Remove tornado's ability to make MK accelerate through the air fast. Have MK have a distinct air speed weakness

 

[EchoesOfRain]

Well it seems that Drill Rush and Dimensional cape have returned, so no HUGE overhauls. Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop are still open for changes, it seems

 

[topspin1617]

Shuttleloop isn't as safe now because glide is gone and probably won't have as much KO power with it being 2-hit now.

I'm sorry, I've seen a couple people say this... but could someone show me where Sakurai comments on Shuttle Loop? All I can find is the Miiverse post with the picture, and the comment just says "Meta Knight's Up Special move...". In another thread I saw someone say that Sakurai said something about the power being reduced, and here you say it's now a 2-hit move, but I can't find the actual original info myself =(

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Metaknight Salt Protection thread? This thread is far more informative than all the whining about 'zomg pls nerf' on his announcement thread.

 

[Petrichor]

I'm sorry, I've seen a couple people say this... but could someone show me where Sakurai comments on Shuttle Loop? All I can find is the Miiverse post with the picture, and the comment just says "Meta Knight's Up Special move...". In another thread I saw someone say that Sakurai said something about the power being reduced, and here you say it's now a 2-hit move, but I can't find the actual original info myself =(

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Nerf everything and he will still be top tier

 

[topspin1617]

Oh, thanks!

I wonder why the Miiverse site only has "Meta Knight's Up Special Move..."; odd.

 

[Ultinarok]

How about a d-smash that isn't a 2 frame kill move. That'd be pretty nice. Or a 2 frame n-air that doesn't do 21 damage. pretty rad. Or maybe a nado that can actually be DI'd out of, doesn't have near complete invulnerability, doesn't eat shields for ****ing breakfast, that's more punishable then just 10 frames of lag.

#salt

But really, nerfing his up-b is atleast a step in the right direction. and the new ledge mechanic addresses his perfect planking problem so we don't have a repeat of what happened in brawl. Infact that's great that he can no longer make it safe and he actually has to commit to it on the ground. The biggest problem with it in brawl was it had invincibility on start up, making it a great reversal but also it could be made safe with the glide attack, making it just a "Why the hell not?" move.

That's basically metaknight in a nutshell in brawl. "Why the hell not throw out this move?" too many of his best moves were perfectly safe to throw out when spaced properly, and his mobility was high enough to easily weave in and out of the opponents attack range making it almost always a losing battle in the spacing game. There was near no risk to any of his actions. It also doesn't help that he shield pokes like a madman, so just being within his attack range would eventually get you killed.

Making tornado a bit more punishable, reducing the damage of n-air, and adding slightly more end lag to his aerials would be a nice transition I think. I honestly think he should stay insanely quick, and keep his gimp game. Really the biggest problem with him is the lack of commitment. Just fix that and he'd be fine.

Agree with all of these points, well said. This pretty much sums up my thoughts on MK.

 

[LeeYawshee]

I'm hoping his up tilt is changed to the up thrust from the Kirby games, his down air becomes the move everyone wants, and he gets an actual combo instead of slashing like a mad man. I can't say anything of him is incorrect, especially since he is Sakurai's character, but it would be cool to get those moves as they would work perfectly in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

How about replacing Tornado? Its easily one of, if not his best attack, completely annihilating lower tier characters. Maybe raising his sword above his head and then shooting a somewhat weak projectile like the Sword ability? If Mach Tornado isn't replaced, then it needs to be nerfed drastically. Such as taking away some of its mobility and near perfect trapping attributes. Not to mention make it so he can be hit out of it easier.

 

[GM_3826]

Nerf everything and he will still be top tier

Not if everyone else is buffed to compensate. Which, based off of what we've seen, seems to be the case.

 

[extremechiton]

the gliding mechanic has been cut completely. this doesn't just affect mk, but also pit and charizard.
im glad the gliding is gone, cuz in brawl, mk could just do a standard glide, recover from anywhere, and still use his shuttle loop glide even if he canceled the standard glide.

mk had too many recovery options, and that made him the perfect edge guarder, with his multiple jumps and multiple recovery options.

no mk is slightly nerfed with out the glide, but I still wonder about all his b moves that also aided In recovery.

 

[Oblivion129]

I think people are exaggerating. He only needs minor changes. He wasn't impossible to beat, he just didn't have a clear counter, so people would just main him and the competitive scene was filled with him.
I'm sure he won't be banned in Smash 4. There's nothing to worry about.

 

[Raetah]

But remember up b now is a "highly technical and effective move"

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Well it seems that Drill Rush and Dimensional cape have returned, so no HUGE overhauls. Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop are still open for changes, it seems

Oh which pictures shows those moves?

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'm glad the glide is gone mostly because MKs and Pits could use it and their other recovery options to abuse Final Destination (among other stages that followed a similar basic floating platform design) flying underneath it, going back and forth from one edge to the other to avoid actual combat for a majority of the match. That was such a pain for me in online Basic Brawl.

Still really doubt Mach Tornado's going anywhere though. It'll probably just get nerfed.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Mach Tornado is too iconic to just be removed... I mean, I'd hope.
But perhaps it would be better for it to be removed and remembered fondly then for it to be nerfed to the point of obsolete use.

I'm torn.
So pretty.

And still, I want to see a SSB Meta Knight ballet.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Oh wait i found the pictures with meta knights side special and down

Thats his side special looks the same

Silly me i forgot that weird affect around meta knight is dimesnoial cape effect (this is his down B)



Anyway one thing we have not talk about his moves, what do you think the custom moves varations might be for meta knights moves?

 

[ProjectAngel]

I think people are exaggerating. He only needs minor changes. He wasn't impossible to beat, he just didn't have a clear counter, so people would just main him and the competitive scene was filled with him.
I'm sure he won't be banned in Smash 4. There's nothing to worry about.

Minor?

Play a good MK player in Brawl, then tell us he needs minor changes.

 

[pupNapoleon]

CUSTOM MOVES!
Great idea; will be added to the OP in discussion topics.

Thanks @ Smashoperatingbuddy123

 

[FlynnCL]

Hmm... I think people are getting to a point where they want everything of him to be heavily nerfed, but if Sakurai does that then it'll be a Melee Kirby situation, and Meta Knight will no longer have any great options.

A huge part of his recovery and mobility hasn't just been nerfed, but outright removed. He no longer has access to glide or the lag-less glide attack, and he no longer has a completely free recovery (because his air speed is one of the worst in the whole game).

He needs to lose the transcendent priority on the majority of his standard attacks, because that was one of the biggest issues fighting Meta Knight; you can never clash with his attacks, he'll always hit you. Tornado doesn't need a huge overhaul, it just needs tweaks to make it more punishable (more landing lag + the move's duration being reduced), because really... if you made it so Tornado did far less shield damage, went virtually no-where, was easily SDI'd and hit out of, and made Meta Knight lag like crazy... that isn't good design, that's just a now useless move.

And mostly, just tweak the speed, knockback and recovery-time on his attacks. I'd say a good deal of his attacks are fine as they are without his transcendent priority + increased ending lag (although I'm expecting down-smash, down-air and up-air to be no-where near as good anymore haha).

 

[Oblivion129]

Minor?

Play a good MK player in Brawl, then tell us he needs minor changes.

He's not invincible, the best MK mains in the world could lose to another character. Lowering the priority and slightly increasing the frames for some attacks and that's it. He wasn't even banned for being broken, he was banned because he had no counters so people mained him instead of other characters and the competitive scene was filled with him. (Also, several rules to limit him, but planking won't be a problem in Smash 4 anyways)
Besides, this is smash 4, not Brawl.

Hmm... I think people are getting to a point where they want everything of him to be heavily nerfed, but if Sakurai does that then it'll be a Melee Kirby situation, and Meta Knight will no longer have any great options.

A huge part of his recovery and mobility hasn't just been nerfed, but outright removed. He no longer has access to glide or the lag-less glide attack, and he no longer has a completely free recovery (because his air speed is one of the worst in the whole game).

He needs to lose the transcendent priority on the majority of his standard attacks, because that was one of the biggest issues fighting Meta Knight; you can never clash with his attacks, he'll always hit you. Tornado doesn't need a huge overhaul, it just needs tweaks to make it more punishable (more landing lag + the move's duration being reduced), because really... if you made it so Tornado did far less shield damage, went virtually no-where, was easily SDI'd and hit out of, and made Meta Knight lag like crazy... that isn't good design, that's just a now useless move.

And mostly, just tweak the speed, knockback and recovery-time on his attacks. I'd say a good deal of his attacks are fine as they are without his transcendent priority + increased ending lag (although I'm expecting down-smash, down-air and up-air to be no-where near as good anymore haha).

Basically this. He could have the exact same attacks, just changed slightly. Besides, other characters are getting buffed like Bowser and Yoshi.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Brawl MK is broken. People who say he isnt don't play competitive. MK is the reason why so many players dropped out of brawl and either quit Smash all together or moved onto Melee or Project M.

If Mk and Ice Climbers were banned Brawl would be a lot more balanced and more enjoyable. Heck even HungryBox himself told me this as well.

Mk being nerfed won't make him the new Melee Kirby. Thats exaggerating right there.

Remove his priority, Tornado is DI-able, D-Smash has more lag(like in PM), Shuttle loop has less knock back and no invincibility and N-air doesn't do over 18% anymore. With all these nerfs mk would be a very balanced character and would require legit skill to play. He wouldn't be auto-pilot like he is in brawl.

 

[ToothiestAura]

His biggest problems were transcendent priority, being capable of canceling all aerial momentum with a single aerial and that all 4 of his specials were fairly competent recoveries.

All that needs to be done is is fix those problems and make a few choice moves slower/laggier/weaker.

 

[Oblivion129]

Brawl MK is broken. People who say he isnt don't play competitive. MK is the reason why so many players dropped out of brawl and either quit Smash all together or moved onto Melee or Project M.

If Mk and Ice Climbers were banned Brawl would be a lot more balanced and more enjoyable. Heck even HungryBox himself told me this as well.

Mk being nerfed won't make him the new Melee Kirby. Thats exaggerating right there.

Remove his priority, Tornado is DI-able, D-Smash has more lag(like in PM), Shuttle loop has less knock back and no invincibility and N-air doesn't do over 18% anymore. With all these nerfs mk would be a very balanced character and would require legit skill to play. He wouldn't be auto-pilot like he is in brawl.

Like you said, if PM balanced MK, I see no reason to think Smash 4 can't/won't.
But let's not assume that people who don't think he's broken don't play competitive.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

If Mk and Ice Climbers were banned Brawl would be a lot more balanced and more enjoyable. Heck even HungryBox himself told me this as well.

Ice Climbers wouldn't even need to be banned because they have lots of counter characters. Hungrybox isn't really the expert on Brawl so take that as you will.

I don't know why everyone is so stressed about Meta Knight. Just look what happened to Melee Fox. Brawl Fox isn't bad but isn't overpowered.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I think Meta Knight needs a serious look, but I don't think it would take all the nerfs in the world to bring him down to Olimar/Diddy levels. I always found Toon Link to be a pretty effective counter; his awesome projectile game really lets him pile the damage on with minimum risk. If you space it right, you can hit MK with bombs during Tornado by aiming for the ground next to him.

 

[Sensei]

He doesn't have to be nerfed. It would be cool if all the other characters got beefed up and can combo and be decent characters too.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Ice Climbers wouldn't even need to be banned because they have lots of counter characters. Hungrybox isn't really the expert on Brawl so take that as you will.

I don't know why everyone is so stressed about Meta Knight. Just look what happened to Melee Fox. Brawl Fox isn't bad but isn't overpowered.

Ice Climbers single handingly dominate the game on their own along with MK. Heck they can even destroy Mk instantly. Only characters that can count as a small counter to iceys is Peach, Jigglypuff and Toon Link but even then they are still screwed once Iceys close in on them.

Hungrybox played brawl and quit. He seen competitive videos and noticed how broken mk and iceys are. If they didn't exist the brawl meta game would be so much more balanced and wouldn't be a total crap fest like it is now. Probably the reason why more people are quitting brawl. Even Nientno(olimar main) and Ocean(rob main) left brawl for it's bad balancing.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

The only way I can see MK being taken down a notch without compromising too much is a shortened range and some landing lag. Sword priority isn't going anywhere and I think it makes sense to keep his moves fast.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

I'll just leave this here: He needs that Project M down air, you know, since he's had it in EVERY BATTLE WITH HIM EVER!

 

[Nat Goméz]

Come on guys! You don't have to worry about him being OP, see how they nerfed Marth with that ending lag in his moves and he was just #5 in the tier list, see Mac's KO punch, sakurai promised a OHKO move but the balance team just couldn't let it happened, so they make it that Little mac should do at least a minimal of damage to be ko and has a time limit to use it, those are just signs of the good work and compromise the balance team has in these game, they are laughing on how broken he was

See what they did to a #5 tier and you can imagine what is going to happen to him

And with that i'm not saying he's going to be competitive crap, but he is going to be FAIR, and in a battle against him will win the better skilled player, and not the one with the better character

 

[SvartWolf]

we still need to see how the new up b works, but i say is an interesting nerf, mach tornado also neds a nerf IMO. outside of that i think that metaknight may be more balanced on the new meta, It's just speculation, but i think that meta will have trouble against super armor characters, and since there are more and some are pretty beefed, i say that could be the last potential nerf meta needs. (plus more landing lag on some aerials)

In overall i would love meta to end as a more techincal less safe and spammable character, his insane start frames should be kept in most cases, and become his main selling point, isneatd of brawl that was this, plus insane recovery, plus spammable moves, plus excellent chasing offstage, plus... you get the idea

In other words, his main selling point should be his abbility to interrupt other characters moves with faster moves, and thast why i think that super armor would screw him in return.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Ice Climbers single handingly dominate the game on their own along with MK. Heck they can even destroy Mk instantly. Only characters that can count as a small counter to iceys is Peach, Jigglypuff and Toon Link but even then they are still screwed once Iceys close in on them.

Hungrybox played brawl and quit. He seen competitive videos and noticed how broken mk and iceys are. If they didn't exist the brawl meta game would be so much more balanced and wouldn't be a total crap fest like it is now. Probably the reason why more people are quitting brawl. Even Nientno(olimar main) and Ocean(rob main) left brawl for it's bad balancing.

You're forgetting Snake and Diddy Kong. Broken characters don't have five negative match ups. The only reason Ice Climbers are considered so good is because how Meta Knight centric the meta game is. Anyway this isn't the thread to discuss that.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ice Climbers single handingly dominate the game on their own along with MK. Heck they can even destroy Mk instantly. Only characters that can count as a small counter to iceys is Peach, Jigglypuff and Toon Link but even then they are still screwed once Iceys close in on them.

Hungrybox played brawl and quit. He seen competitive videos and noticed how broken mk and iceys are. If they didn't exist the brawl meta game would be so much more balanced and wouldn't be a total crap fest like it is now. Probably the reason why more people are quitting brawl. Even Nientno(olimar main) and Ocean(rob main) left brawl for it's bad balancing.

Ice Climbers are only broken because of Brawl's small stage list. They have a number of stage CPs that were banned because MK was too good on them. Brawl would be much better with MK banned and a liberal stage list.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

What would you people say about him having Sword Beams?

I would have wanted him to shoot Sword Beams for his Standard Special, and Mach Tornado can be his Up Special.

 

[Knight Dude]

What would you people say about him having Sword Beams?

I would have wanted him to shoot Sword Beams for his Standard Special, and Mach Tornado can be his Up Special.

Maybe his Sword Beam can be his Side Special. I don't think his Brawl one references anything in particular.