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Most Nerfed & Most Buffed

B-Mon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
321
Location
New York City
Again, G&W has priority over many aerials.
That little ****face is like unfair.
His smashes = Very little lag + Dangerous Knockback at ****ing 70-80 for Falco. WTF?!
 

SmashBro99

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,199
Location
CT.
3DS FC
4957-2747-2945
Fox and Falcon are most nerfed, hello? Also Sheik

They made them light and weak. (Fox/Falcon)

DK/Pika/G&W/Zelda all got great buffs, oh and Luigi too.
 

OrlanduEX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
1,029
Nerfed:
Peach
Link
Ganondorf
Sheik
Samus
Fox
Falco
C. Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers
Marth

Buffed:
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Zelda
Ness
Game and Watch
Pikachu

About the same:
Donkey Kong
Yoshi
Kirby
 

Jibbles

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
169
Location
...
I wouldn't say Falco & Marth are "nerfed". They may not be as insane as their old Melee counterparts, but they're doing extremely well in the new Brawl physics. The only way they're nerfed is if you directly compare them to the Melee version without any regards to the new Brawl engine.
 

Foxy_Marth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
168
Location
Toronto
3DS FC
5129-1951-3128
Nerfed:
Peach
Link
Ganondorf
Sheik
Samus
Fox
Falco
C. Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers
Marth

Buffed:
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Zelda
Ness
Game and Watch
Pikachu

About the same:
Donkey Kong
Yoshi
Kirby
Donkey Kong and Kirby are much better.

Marth and Falco have not been nerfed at all. There 2 of the best characters in the game and have been called buffed by some.

IC werent nerfed.... Nana survives much easier, and they have the best grab game in the game. Probably about the same.

Mario was nerfed IMO

Ness definitely had a big buff until the reality of the infinite grab, so idk about this one.
 

Someone7

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
151
Location
Florida
I think there are a few things to consider here. One is absolute positioning on the tier list. It's kinda hard to argue some characters got nerfed if their tier list position stays relatively the same. For instance, Falco changed a whole lot, but I wouldn't say he was definitely nerfed or buffed, given his tier position remained basically the same (I think he is third best, behind Snake and MK, and now #1 out of the returing Melee cast). The things he lost that made him great are also things everyone lost, which should also be taken into consideration. I would say Brawl has been mostly neutral to him. He dropped in the overall tier, but he finally outshines all the old Melee cast.

I mained Doc and Falcon in melee, and I have to definitely agree Captain Falcon has been nerfed horribly. It's like Sakurai had a grudge against him or something. It's like they wanted to make all his moves so bad that they want to make you try Falcon Punches in desperation. Like someone else said though, the physics changes seem to have hurt him the most of any character, as he otherwise remains almost unchanged. Nothing works right anymore, and he seems to have nothing going for him now. To quote someone else in this thread: “Falcon got a line drive straight to the nuts with the nerf bat.” They should just rename him Craptain Falcon.

Samus, I don't agree with as being a major nerf. Granted, I wasn't a Samus main, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt, but Samus seems about as good as she was in Melee to me. Yeah, lack of wavedashing hurts her spacing a lot, and he nair is worse, but I've played some decent Brawlers who main Samus and her zair game is really good. She also can still missile cancel. I would say a nerf, but not a drastic one.

Fox, on the other hand, is hard to say. Definitely a nerf, no matter how you look at it. But Fox is still one of the better characters. All the amazing waveshining and flashy stuff are gone for the two Space Animals, and in exchange, Fox basically got nothing at all (unlike Falco, who got chaingrabbing, laser-locking, decent smash boost/DLX cancel, and a kept a modified SHL spam game). Given the level Fox has fallen, I would say this is a pretty hard nerf, though not on par with the Captain Falcon nerf.

Luigi, minus his amazing Melee wavedash, has got an all around buff, as far as I can tell. Literally everything about this character seems better to me, and he is my new Doc replacement. Luigi definitely got a buff, while Mario got a nerf. The cape no longer is the amazing move it was in Melee, as people can grab the edge backwards now. The FLUDD just seems really stupid to me, even if you can edgeguard (some) with it, as the cape was a much better edge guard in Melee. Lack of L-canceling the fair makes it a really terrible move now. In my opinion, a worse nerf than Samus, but not as bad as Fox, or anywhere close to Captain Falcon.

GW is a demon now. Like Luigi, nearly everything seems buffed (except the dtilt, and only a slight nerf there), except way more of a buff than Luigi got. GW went from low/bottom tier to a top spot on the high tier. The Key is nearly unpunishable now, as it keeps hitting even after he lands. His bair is an amazing move, also nearly unpunishable. In a game where projectile spam has become a much better tactic, GW can put the fear of God into any would-be spammer that relies on an energy attack. His fsmash hits way harder. His throws allow him to tech chase like crazy. His recovery is awesome with auto sweetspotting. GW definitely got the greatest buff of all the characters.

Ganondorf is a lot like Falco, in that so much has changed about the character, it is hard for me to say exactly how much he was nerfed. As a Falcon main, I did my fair share of playing with Ganon, and the new Ganon is just completely different. The f-air just sucks now, and I still prefer the L-canceled Melee d-air to thunder stomping. His side-B is definitely an improvement though, especially given it's suicidal capabilities. The new jab is vastly inferior in my opinion. One of the ways I punish spot-dodges in Brawl is spamming the AAA combo. With the new, slower jab, people can still spot-dodge and punish you. The only thing Ganon seems to have going for him over his Melee counterpart is a better side-B with suicide capabilities. He now plays like a much slower, inferior Ganon, though somehow the nerf doesn't seem anywhere near as bad to me as Captain Falcon's. Overall I have to say this is a strong nerf.

Donkey Kong definitely got a significant buff, while also remaining basically the same character. His Donkey Punch has super armor frames, his f-smash kills very quickly, his ftilt is amazingly effective against practically everyone, and his aerial game is definitely better with his bair. DK can also apparently easily kill people now with his stage spiking throws. His down-B even seems useful now! The fact that DK still seems overall the same also makes it much easier to pick him up and start immediately playing very well with him. A great overall boost, better than Luigi's, though not as good as GW's.

As for Zelda, I hardly ever played her or against her. But she definitely got a major buff in a few departments. Din's fire is now an incredible move, and I don't know how many times I've cursed her up-smash. It literally sucks you into it, and KOs pretty well. Her u-air is also a lot better now, but overall, her boosts don't seem as nearly as powerful as GW's to me.

Those are the characters I've had the most experience with in Melee and whose changes in Brawl seem the most significant to me. I know I'm leaving out Peach here, as her nerf is nearly comparable to Captain Falcon's in terms of tier list droppage and overall crap she has become, but I didn't play with her much in Melee and not at all in Brawl. Everyone else seems mostly unchanged to me. Pika got an awesome downsmash and QACing. Marth seems overall slower, even taking into account this is a slower game, but he is still a solid character. Ness got a slight boost, but is outshined by the newcomer Lucas anyway. Bowser is much faster now and can suicide, but is still Bowser. Jiggs, Kirby, Yoshi, Ice Climbers and Link basically feel like the same characters to me, minus the Melee physics. Sheik is definitely overall worse for worse, but again, not a lot of experience for me with this character in Melee or Brawl. Sheik also seems to have some interesting new ATs that could potentially help her, so I don't think she got hit as hard as Captain Falcon and Peach, probably not even Ganon.
 

Xebenkeck

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
1,636
Location
My Head
Ness definitely had a big buff until the reality of the infinite grab, so idk about this one.
I don't see how an infinate from two characters would determine a buff or a nerf. Ness like you said got a massive buff, in killing power, and all around usefullness of all his moves. His yo-yo is really useful, pk flash has more than one use now, all his aerials have massive priority, his spike can kill at 0% the only one in the game to my knowledge,pk fire traps ppl better and it comes out faster, his grab range is so much better, especially his dash grab, pkt2 kills at like 60% and its pretty hard to gimp his recovery now, oh and lets not forget his godly bthrow. The only real thing that got nerfed on ness was his bat in both speed and the sound it makes.

Also if you want to say because marth and charizard can infinate ness, that he should be considered a nerf, then i can safely say everyone got nerfed except for the ice climbers because they can 0-death anyone.
 

Delta Z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
345
Falcon got the worst nerf, by far. G&W probably got the biggest buff, but Kirby also got a huge one...he went from second-worst to probably high tier. And Marth & Falco did get nerfed...a little...
 

JigglyZelda003

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
6,792
Location
Cleveland, OH
As for Zelda, I hardly ever played her or against her. But she definitely got a major buff in a few departments. Din's fire is now an incredible move, and I don't know how many times I've cursed her up-smash. It literally sucks you into it, and KOs pretty well. Her u-air is also a lot better now, but overall, her boosts don't seem as nearly as powerful as GW's to me.

Those are the characters I've had the most experience with in Melee and whose changes in Brawl seem the most significant to me. I know I'm leaving out Peach here, as her nerf is nearly comparable to Captain Falcon's in terms of tier list droppage and overall crap she has become, but I didn't play with her much in Melee and not at all in Brawl. .
Zelda got lighter an lightning Kick is much harder to land now and shes lost a bit in her technical play b/c transforming to sheik takes too long. i feel she was evened out to where she's easier to use.

As for peach her nerfs aren't as bad as CF's i don't think. practically all her attacks except her usmash got weakened but she got a stronger usmash and up tilt. also most of her specials are better, toad can actually kill people and block from behind, peach bomber goes further and is stronger, and the ^b goes higher and you can open and close it to remake the parisol hit people when they touch it.
 

Ori_bro

ignite the fire
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Michigan
Dang thats hard to think off the top of my head but
Nerfed
- CF
Buffed
-Pikachu (slightly)
-Marth
- Olimar (doubles only)
- Game & Watch
- Luigi
 

Kasai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
420
Location
Bellingham, Washington
Dang thats hard to think off the top of my head but
Nerfed
- CF
Buffed
-Pikachu (slightly)
-Marth
- Olimar (doubles only)
- Game & Watch
- Luigi
Olimar can't be buffed because he wasn't in the last game.

Anyway,


The 4 most buffed and most nerfed.


Buffed:
Game & Watch
Kirby
Pikachu
DK

Nerfed:
Peach
Captain Falcon
Samus
Fox

not in any specific order.
 

omfgomfg

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
1,070
Location
Your eyes happened to drift to my location, I see.
Nerfed top 10:
1. Captain Falcon
2. Captain Falcon
3. Captain Falcon
4. Captain Falcon
5. Captain Falcon
6. Captain Falcon
7. Captain Falcon
8. Captain Falcon
9. Captain Falcon
10. Captain Falcon

Buffed top 3:
1. GW
2. Zelda
3. Ike (yeah he was buffed from the beta - in the beta, he had the same strength but twice as slow, literally)
 

chubb-o-wub

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
494
Location
Midwest
Buffed -
Zelda
Ness
G&W
Kirby
DK
Pikachu
Luigi
Bowser

Nerfs -
Peach
Captain Falcon
Samus :(
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Marth - to an extent
Sheik
Falco - have to sweetspot the Dair, hard for me to do
Pichu, Mewtwo, Young Link, Roy, Doctor Mario - They're SOOO nerfed...
 

billywill

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
462
Most nerfed- Sheik, Captain Falcon, Falco

Most buffed- Zelda, G&W, Bowser, Donkey Kong
 

itman1234

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
11
Buffed:
1. Pikachu
2. G&W
3. Kirby

Nerfed:
1. Captain Falcon
2. Marth
3. Jigglypuff
 

DKKountry

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
926
Location
Corneria... Fourth Planet of the Lylat System
A few off the top of my head.
Falco - major nerf; his Short hop laser is now sad, his Dair spike is now sadder, and I'm not a fan of his new DownB.
I think Yoshi was Buffed... even though he still doesn't have a third jump, everything else feels more solid.
Captain Falcon - nerfed for the most part, but on the plus side, he has a different fighting style in this game that makes him much more functional than I initially thought. He's definitely nerfed if you try to play him like Melee Falcon though.

Kirby - My favorite buff; his movements are top-notch. He attacks, dodges, short-hops, etc. with a fluidity that rivals other speed-junkies like Diddy and Meta-knight.

IMHO
 

Raptor Jesus.

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
30
Location
Pensacola, FL
Captain Falcon was by far the most nerfed character in Brawl. Although Captain Falcon still kicks some butt if you're a good player, he was a helluva lot better in Melee. Falco was a bit nerfed as well.

Kirby, in my opinion, was the most buffed in Brawl. He became quicker and slightly more powerful than in Melee.
 

Rapid_Assassin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,163
Location
RI
Nerfed: Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff. Both of them have the problem of being good in Melee because of Melee's physics only, and then being dropped into a game with physics that hurt them with weakened attacks. I can't decide which is worse, both essentially have half their attacks replaced by taunts (when compared with what the rest of the cast has in each move's slot)

Buffed: Game and Watch. He now has a normal shield, on average his attacks got better (some are a little worse, but still good), and since no one can lcancel anymore, that disadvantage is gone (Melee G+W can't lcancel 3/5 of his moves, when everyone else can lcancel everything).
 

0RLY

A great conversation filler at bars and parties
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
2,681
Location
Temple University, Philadelphia
1) Samus
2) C.Falcon
3) Ganon
4) Jiggs
5) Fox (only since he started out at the top)
shiek and peach follow

1) Pikachu
2) G&W
3) Kirby
4) DK
5) Zelda
(6) Ness - He deserves a mention)
(7) Luigi - He deserves a mention too)
 

Cloud Cleaver

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
349
Location
Central Virginia
Nerfed: Link (he was my main, curse it all), Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Samus, Sheik
Buffed: Pikachu, G&W, Kirby
Changed but stayed the same quality: Falco, Marth (they seriously nerfed his spike, but buffed his forward special and upsmash), Fox

Sorry, Fox was never fair in Melee. Wavedashing made his character what it was, and Smash was never intended to be played that way. They stunted his blaster some, but fixed his fair and made his falling speed a bit less suicidal, so he didn't REALLY change, IMO.
 

Foxy_Marth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
168
Location
Toronto
3DS FC
5129-1951-3128
Ok someone needs to explain Falco.

Falco has not been nerfed at all. He is still amazing as in Melee he is just very different, has a weird play style, and his insane potential hasnt been tapped into too much.

He may have lost his old Down B and Spike but they werent gone to waste. If you know what your doing you can sweetspot the spike easily. And the new down B can be timed well to be work better than his old in certain situations. He can make the opponent trip, it has great range, and is the best at reflecting ROBs Gyro's and Diddys Nanners.

His up b was nerfed a bit but his sideB has insane horizontal distance.

His Fsmash was changed alot but not really nerfed too much. His Usmash has a great buff because you have the Dash cancelled up smash. Which is very effective and awsome. And can do one out of a Dthrow or chain grab and has kill potential. Dsmash is a bit nerfed, but is around the same.

His ariel game is just as good as the last game. The spike was nerfed a bit though, his Nair was not nerfed, it is just different, its a great combo move now, and racks up damage quickly. His Bair is an amazing KO move now, and is one of the best edgeguarding moves in the game. His Fair can be time off the edge to be a great ko/edgeguarder. I dont like his Uair as much though.

He still has the best projectile in the game and can do 2 out of a shorthop.

His Dtilt was nerfed but he got great great tilts in his Ftilt and Utilt which also have great combo potential.

I have to say the best thing about the new Falco that doesnt make him nerfed is the Dthrow chain grab. He can get a very easy 30-50% headstart by doing a few grabs than a dash attack canceled Usmash, or a spike to kill them which is always great.
 

Judge Judy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
1,638
Mario wasn't nerfed. The cape is still an excellent edgeguarder and the F.L.U.D.D. is a buff if anything.
 

JigglyZelda003

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
6,792
Location
Cleveland, OH
Sorry, Fox was never fair in Melee. Wavedashing made his character what it was, and Smash was never intended to be played that way. They stunted his blaster some, but fixed his fair and made his falling speed a bit less suicidal, so he didn't REALLY change, IMO.
fox can't shine chain people anymore or do certain combo's that involved the shine move in melee his uair, upsmash, and fsmash lost power. because he doesn't fall as fast he's easier to KO cause he doesn't fall like a brick anymore, it does make it less likely to suicide with fox but thats a double edge change. so i think he changed quite a bit (other than graphically)
 

Nestec

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
916
Location
STL
I really don't think Jigglypuff was really nerfed... I think her playstyle is just a bit different and we need to readjust to her a bit more. Her f-air is ridiculously useful now, and her edgeguarding game is still crazy. As far as racking up damage, she was never really powerful nor quick to begin with. Her approach still has decent priority, range, and force (Forward-B, F-air), and can be combined with her swift air speed for even better approach.

So I'm not getting it, what about her got worse?
 

TwinTurbo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
25
i think link has been pretty nerfed, not so much in his power but his laggyness and speed have been incredibly downgraded. (he wasnt very high tier in melee anyway tho)

most buffed is zelda for sure, i never used her and now i find myself turning to her when link cant get the job done.
 

TwinTurbo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
25
I really don't think Jigglypuff was really nerfed... I think her playstyle is just a bit different and we need to readjust to her a bit more. Her f-air is ridiculously useful now, and her edgeguarding game is still crazy. As far as racking up damage, she was never really powerful nor quick to begin with. Her approach still has decent priority, range, and force (Forward-B, F-air), and can be combined with her swift air speed for even better approach.

So I'm not getting it, what about her got worse?
rest(down b) isnt really an instant k.o. like it was in melee
 

Nestec

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
916
Location
STL
But even that's not much of a nerf...

It still KOs early enough, and her killing potential isn't exactly affected. She can still kill with edgeguarding, and even rollout is somewhat more effective (although it too was weakened).
 

TwinTurbo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
25
yeah, but maybe thats what people are referring to when they say that jiggs is nerfed
 

hizzlum

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
451
Location
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8FaV6oizNnQ
Nerf:Captain falcon
Buff:G&W(from the bottom of melee to one of the top in brawl)
As for a character who remained neutral(buffs cancel out the nerfs) I would have to say marth
Range and speed were lost for a lot of power, His recovery is basically the same as it was, Better approach and pressure game seems to all cancel the range and speed nerf.
 

MirrorbladeZen

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
9
Wait...explain to me how Link got uber nerfed? From what I see, he got buffed pretty good this time around...just has some craptacular recovery issues (then again, what else is new?)

Buffs:
+ Arrows fly straight and faster than before, do more damage too. They are far more practical than Melee and also have the quick draw to boot.
+ Bombs are more damaging, smaller, and can K.O. now a person in sudden death. Can also be used after a charged f.smash
+ Zair, while shorter in reach, does more damage as an attack and still auto cancels once landing.
+ Gale Boomerang is one of the most intriguing weapons to use, being both a damager and a tactical tool at the same time. Edgeguards like crazy too.
+ Usmash can now keep the enemy trapped within ALL three hits, and added practicality is the boost smashing.
+ All smashes come out quicker than before
+ Spin attack can be charged
+ B.air can kill...and has good priority! (can quick draw too!)
+ Whole blade can spike during the d.tilt

Nerf
- Boomerang not staying as an all the time hitbox
- Spin Attack isn't as good in terms of raw power AND recovery
- Zair doesn't have the length it had in Melee
- Lack of combos and L-cancel due to Brawl engine
- Falls faster (and is heavier)
- Increased lag for some smashes

Anything else I'm missing here? I think he has better buffs than nerfs IMHO. And to remain on topic:

Nerfed:
- Ganondorf: wow...he just got pummeled when there was no reason for such a thing. Only received a few buffs and they're not really good enough to counteract the nerfs.

Buffed:
- Game and Watch: oh jebus...this guy got it good this time around. Heavy priority over a ton of shiz, better recovery, freak smashes, and wow...too good. XD
 
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