Theftz22
Smash Lord
peach and fox were nerfed insanely
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Most Nerfed & Most Buffed
- Thread starter flyingemus
- Start date
gorgon.
Smash Ace
Most nerfed: C Falcon.
Most buffed: G&W.
Most buffed: G&W.
Moosecalibur
Smash Apprentice
Most Buffed: G&W 
Most Nerfed: Jigglypuff (RIP) :'(
Most Nerfed: Jigglypuff (RIP) :'(
massimo009
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2008
- Messages
- 51
link became worthless with the dum gale boomerang and chargeable tornadoe spin attack
Marth is as good as ever, he still is high tier. If he was nerfed, he was nerfed from third to, well, only a few down. One of few High tier Melee characters still awesome.
Edit: Sorry for double posting, my bad!
gorgon.
Smash Ace
Double post! Mods, get him! Just jk.
Yes, Marth is still High/Top. He was just barely nerfed, and retained his (feminine) uberness from Melee. But I wish there was another FE character replacing Marth. Sorry to all the Marth-lovers, but his game was only released in Japan! (Though they're making a North American remake on the DS.) Maybe Lyn from FE7...
Yes, Marth is still High/Top. He was just barely nerfed, and retained his (feminine) uberness from Melee. But I wish there was another FE character replacing Marth. Sorry to all the Marth-lovers, but his game was only released in Japan! (Though they're making a North American remake on the DS.) Maybe Lyn from FE7...
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
@ last poster: I'm pretty sure Lyn wa the most popular FE character in all countries except japan
Falco was #2 in melee. unless he's #1 in brawl, which he definitely is not, he can't have been buffed.
Yoshi is one of Brawl's worst characters, he was bad in melee, but not this bad.
just no.
Falco was #2 in melee. unless he's #1 in brawl, which he definitely is not, he can't have been buffed.
Yoshi is one of Brawl's worst characters, he was bad in melee, but not this bad.
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
I dont know why you all think Yoshi got horribly nerfed, I think hes just as good or better
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
You're forgetting Ike... Who got in of course
And Roy... Who has unfinished character data
And Eliwood (who was actually the most popular lord in that game)...who for some reason still ended up as just a sticker, despite being the most important Lord of that game.
You don't replace the most popular and most important character from a series. The fact that he's even getting an international remake should tell you something.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Eliwood was the least popular lord out of that game actually. Lyn was more popular than hector who was more popular than eliwood.
Eliwwod was the most central to the story, but was the least popular.
Roy is VERY unpopular within the fire emblem crowd actually. The only reason he has the popularity he does is from smash, not on his own.
Ike was popular in both Japan and America.... lucky him
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Among Japan Eliwood was the most popular. Lyn was disliked mostly because of her mediocre stats and little relevance to the story (in comparison to the other two). And didn't people like Hector more than Lyn for his amazing stats and humorous personality?
I'm completely aware that Roy was unpopular within the FE crowd. But should we ignore his popularity from smash completely?
So which do you think would be considered more important (popularity wise) popularity in Japan where the game was made, or popularity everywhere else (assuming Sakurai even took that into consideration when choosing FE characters)? I honestly don't know, but I'm leaning towards the latter, which would explain why Lyn gets to at least be an assist trophy while Eliwood gets stuck as a sticker. Grrr....
If FE got a third rep, who do you think it would be? I would go with either Roy (de-clonified of course), Lyn (being female and the first face you see in the first international FE helps), or Micaiah (who has no real reason to get in other than being unique in comparison to the other lords, but hey I wouldn't mind.)
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Lyn is the obvious choice... because she made next best thing: Assist Trophy.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Hector > Lyn.
ja_schaffer
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 1
How are you making these comparisons? The entire game system; the emphasis that each attack strategy wields with respect to a character, has changed entirely.
I'm trying to say that even though Marth has been unchanged, that doesn't mean he's as good as he was in Melee. It's an entirely different engine.
So you can talk about who was buffed or nerfed, but without a proper in-depth comparison of the differences between the two engines we can't really say for sure.
I'm trying to say that even though Marth has been unchanged, that doesn't mean he's as good as he was in Melee. It's an entirely different engine.
So you can talk about who was buffed or nerfed, but without a proper in-depth comparison of the differences between the two engines we can't really say for sure.
matthewmilad
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2006
- Messages
- 212
Nerfed:
1) Captain Falcon
2) Samus
3) Peach
4) Jiggs/Sheik
Buffed:
1) Game + Watch
2) Pikachu
3) Ness
4) Kirby
1) Captain Falcon
2) Samus
3) Peach
4) Jiggs/Sheik
Buffed:
1) Game + Watch
2) Pikachu
3) Ness
4) Kirby
Dreadlord Santa
Smash Journeyman
On-topic: Falcon and Ganondorf have definitely been hit the hardest in the transition to Brawl. Falcon lost a lot of aerial speed and has no combo ability, and Ganondorf is way too slow without l-cancelling. Game & Watch would be my choice for most buffed, since most of his attacks have way less lag, have more knockback, he's got a bigger shield and much improved recovery, etc. He's really, really frustrating for me to fight, now...
Off-topic: I don't even want to get involved in character popularity for Fire Emblem games <_< I only know how popular they were as units, not as characters, in which case Hector was definitely #1, then Lyn, with Eliwood a distant third. I haven't heard of anyone claiming Lyn as being weak, for the record.
Nobody cares about Roy anywhere, it seems, and I'm convinced that anyone that actually likes Roy because of Smash needs to get their brain checked for being a fan of an empty husk of a character, polygons sheathed around mere nothingness. His game is one of the least popular games in the series, and he wasn't even a particularly stellar character in it, anyway.
As for who I would want in the next Smash the most, I would say Lyn, if only for personal bias. I guess she'd kind of fit the bill for a character design in Smash the best, since she gets a bow instead of another melee weapon for use alongside her sword. I can't see a character with a sword and an axe really fitting in... sorry, Hector. Besides, Ike is already using up the slow, powerful, long reach character slot (however little sense that makes, given that he's based on his Path of Radiance version, which actually had quite good Speed growth - his best non-hp stat, even!)
Off-topic: I don't even want to get involved in character popularity for Fire Emblem games <_< I only know how popular they were as units, not as characters, in which case Hector was definitely #1, then Lyn, with Eliwood a distant third. I haven't heard of anyone claiming Lyn as being weak, for the record.
Nobody cares about Roy anywhere, it seems, and I'm convinced that anyone that actually likes Roy because of Smash needs to get their brain checked for being a fan of an empty husk of a character, polygons sheathed around mere nothingness. His game is one of the least popular games in the series, and he wasn't even a particularly stellar character in it, anyway.
As for who I would want in the next Smash the most, I would say Lyn, if only for personal bias. I guess she'd kind of fit the bill for a character design in Smash the best, since she gets a bow instead of another melee weapon for use alongside her sword. I can't see a character with a sword and an axe really fitting in... sorry, Hector. Besides, Ike is already using up the slow, powerful, long reach character slot (however little sense that makes, given that he's based on his Path of Radiance version, which actually had quite good Speed growth - his best non-hp stat, even!)
Killress
Smash Ace
Hmm. I think Falcon is the most nerfed, and Zelda is the most buffed.
Captain Falcon has probably dropped the most, but Sheik, Ganon, Peach, ICs, Fox, and Falco have all changed for the worse whether it was a change in their moveset or the different physics. Falco and Fox are still pretty high up, and the ICs aren't bad at all, but not quite as abusable as their Melee counterparts.
Pikachu, Ness, Game+Watch, Bowser, Kirby, Zelda, and Luigi are all much better than their appearances in Melee. Luigi is actually better than Mario for a change, as he should be, and Zelda is actually getting more use than Sheik in several different communities. Bowser no longer relies on mindgames and Fortress, Pikachu, Ness, and Kirby are actually worth using, and G+W has too many buffs to list here.
Pikachu, Ness, Game+Watch, Bowser, Kirby, Zelda, and Luigi are all much better than their appearances in Melee. Luigi is actually better than Mario for a change, as he should be, and Zelda is actually getting more use than Sheik in several different communities. Bowser no longer relies on mindgames and Fortress, Pikachu, Ness, and Kirby are actually worth using, and G+W has too many buffs to list here.
RedfishX
Smash Cadet
I honestly do not think that there should be any argument against Captain Falcon being the most nerfed.
However, let me ask you this: Did some people get worse...or did everyone else just get better?
In my opinion, Game and Watch is the most buffed in the game. He is literally insane and is 3rd or 4th on the tier list, easily. 3rd to 4th out of anywhere from 39 to 40...that's a pretty awesome character.
Kirby is pretty buffed, but I think he's about the same. 20ish on the tier list to 20ish on the tier list. Some people got worse, making him look better. Sure, he did get better, but not so much as other characters getting worse. (And yes, I'm not afraid to thrash my own main, but in my opinion that's what happened)
However, let me ask you this: Did some people get worse...or did everyone else just get better?
In my opinion, Game and Watch is the most buffed in the game. He is literally insane and is 3rd or 4th on the tier list, easily. 3rd to 4th out of anywhere from 39 to 40...that's a pretty awesome character.
Kirby is pretty buffed, but I think he's about the same. 20ish on the tier list to 20ish on the tier list. Some people got worse, making him look better. Sure, he did get better, but not so much as other characters getting worse. (And yes, I'm not afraid to thrash my own main, but in my opinion that's what happened)
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Falcon is most nerfed no questions. Ganondorf is still on the lower end of the spectrum, so I wouldn't say he was really nerfed.
G+W, Zelda, and DK got the biggest buffs, but DK was pretty beastly in Melee.
G+W, Zelda, and DK got the biggest buffs, but DK was pretty beastly in Melee.
furyberserk
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2007
- Messages
- 89
Most buffed: Zelda
Why? Din's fire gets bigger, stronger, and a larger hitbox. Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair are too strong and kill from 50% to 80%(stages matter). Forward smash and Down smash were always the most useful, but now have a larger range, including the Up smash, being the best attack I ever use. Final Smash(if was included) would make her cheaper, than she already is. Plus, the old Melee tactics are still somewhat useful(mostly the sit and wait thing).
Most nerf'd: Captain Falcon
Why? Well...he was solely used to prepare for the Knee as a kill, but with less speed, and less jump, it is near impossible to suprise the opponent with the predictable death. Plus the game doesn't allow a fast fall during an attack, meaning landing the knee is useless jumping and falling, unless there is enough hitstun...woops...less hitstun also. He can no longer combo, and his attacks on the ground are still almost as useless. Dair doesn't spike(knocks characters up if it would have spiked in melee) and since you can't fast fall during an attack, it is pretty useless if you want an easy kill. The best thing about him now to me is to spam the Falcon Punch on a stage after the opponent is knocked down for the next easy kill. Down smash is new ground kill, up tilt is best edge guard now(I found how to litterally edgeguard with every character on the stage), down tilt has too much lag now(or just game pace is too slow) only real tactic now is chasing, which may make matters worse.
If now Zelda, then Pikachu with down smash, forward smash, Down B spamming, Up B cancel to Down B spamming, and forward B has a larger range with damage. And lets not forget about his tactics he stole from Pichu, the walljump.
Those are the best and worse. Captain is worse than Ganondorf because of his tilts has more horizontal knock back for less recovery. Only sheiks fair was nerf'd, the rest was pal except the chain recovery and she is basically the only character who can combo after an easy 10% damage(forward tilt and after 80-90% upsmash, it will link and low DI away, only toward and the player could easily turn around to continue).
Why? Din's fire gets bigger, stronger, and a larger hitbox. Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair are too strong and kill from 50% to 80%(stages matter). Forward smash and Down smash were always the most useful, but now have a larger range, including the Up smash, being the best attack I ever use. Final Smash(if was included) would make her cheaper, than she already is. Plus, the old Melee tactics are still somewhat useful(mostly the sit and wait thing).
Most nerf'd: Captain Falcon
Why? Well...he was solely used to prepare for the Knee as a kill, but with less speed, and less jump, it is near impossible to suprise the opponent with the predictable death. Plus the game doesn't allow a fast fall during an attack, meaning landing the knee is useless jumping and falling, unless there is enough hitstun...woops...less hitstun also. He can no longer combo, and his attacks on the ground are still almost as useless. Dair doesn't spike(knocks characters up if it would have spiked in melee) and since you can't fast fall during an attack, it is pretty useless if you want an easy kill. The best thing about him now to me is to spam the Falcon Punch on a stage after the opponent is knocked down for the next easy kill. Down smash is new ground kill, up tilt is best edge guard now(I found how to litterally edgeguard with every character on the stage), down tilt has too much lag now(or just game pace is too slow) only real tactic now is chasing, which may make matters worse.
If now Zelda, then Pikachu with down smash, forward smash, Down B spamming, Up B cancel to Down B spamming, and forward B has a larger range with damage. And lets not forget about his tactics he stole from Pichu, the walljump.
Those are the best and worse. Captain is worse than Ganondorf because of his tilts has more horizontal knock back for less recovery. Only sheiks fair was nerf'd, the rest was pal except the chain recovery and she is basically the only character who can combo after an easy 10% damage(forward tilt and after 80-90% upsmash, it will link and low DI away, only toward and the player could easily turn around to continue).
blazefox
Smash Journeyman
Tech wise... Fox, hands down was gimped the most. Moveset wise, probly Capt. Falcon and or Link. Spin attack was hit by the ugly stick...
Bowser got a major buff. G&W is just.... Do I need to say aything?
And Ice Climbers are just insane.
Bowser got a major buff. G&W is just.... Do I need to say aything?
And Ice Climbers are just insane.
samdaballer
Smash Ace
most nerfed: cfalc, jiggs
buffed: gaw and dk
buffed: gaw and dk
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I think Jiggly and Ganondorf both took bigger hits... but maybe not
Iwan
Smash Ace
biggest nerfs:
1: Shiek
2: Cap'n
3: Peach
Biggest buffs:
1: DK
2: Pika
3: Zelda
1: Shiek
2: Cap'n
3: Peach
Biggest buffs:
1: DK
2: Pika
3: Zelda
Biggest Buff: Zelda (actually it was just Dins Fire that got buffed...and it got some SUPER STEROIDS), G&W, Pikachu (Thunder....only 80 times better then then melee).
Biggest Nerf: Cfalcon (many tears have been shed on this sad sad fact T.T), Shiek (i have personally mourned over this loss), and Marth (this is my personal opinion, but i think his sword was cut in half one half was given to Pit, which he then broke in half again but the power remains, and the other half went to meta knight. and his speed his diminished greatly...but he got some good buffs....being everything else)
Biggest Nerf: Cfalcon (many tears have been shed on this sad sad fact T.T), Shiek (i have personally mourned over this loss), and Marth (this is my personal opinion, but i think his sword was cut in half one half was given to Pit, which he then broke in half again but the power remains, and the other half went to meta knight. and his speed his diminished greatly...but he got some good buffs....being everything else)
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Marth was not nerfed that much, because the buffs he recieved actually counterbalanced his nerfs.
Nerfs:
Less range
Less hitstun (engine nerf)
Less on stage edgeguards (engine nerf)
Buffs:
Faster side B that auto combos
Invincibile startup on his up B (acts as a combo breaker now as well as being dificult to edgeguard)
More knockback on his fair, nair, uair, f-tilt, d-smash (untipped), u-smash (sucks into tip), and shield breaker
Shield Breaker does more base shield damage (better for breaking shields) and has more horizontal range
Counter is now attack dependant rather than set
Shield Breaker aids recovery
So while it's true that his range cut can be considered a big nerf, and the engine changes hurt his old combo oriented style, his buffs did more than enough to not only make his game completely unreliant on combos (with so many kill moves, and reliable auto combos for racking damage, he's got no problems killing this time around) but I dare say that he actually fits brawl better than melee Marth ever could. His shieldbreaker and long range moves allow him to break through the defensive system of brawl, while he still gets to abuse it himself.
Marth did change quite a bit, contrary to popular belief. His changes made him fit the new brawl engine much better, and I really doubt they were even thinking of character balance when they changed him.
Kirby Redux
Smash Journeyman
Most Nerfed: Captain Falcon, Shiek, Link, Peach, and Samus
Most Buffed: Kirby, Pikachu, Zelda, G&W, uh and i think Luigi
Most Buffed: Kirby, Pikachu, Zelda, G&W, uh and i think Luigi
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2008
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- 13,512
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- TripleDash
- 3DS FC
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Nerded: Fox, Captain Falcon, Shiek, Peach, Link, Mario, Jigglypuff, Falco,
Buffed: Mr. Game & Watch, Luigi, Kirby, Pikachu, Zelda, Donkey Kong, Ness,
Buffed: Mr. Game & Watch, Luigi, Kirby, Pikachu, Zelda, Donkey Kong, Ness,
Sheik got nerfed and buffed at the same time. Overall a nerf. They bettered her ground moves, smashes and stuff, but her main killing weapon in Melee, her fair is completely useless now. Bair is her best killing aerial move and IMO it's hard to pull off. Nairs ok.. but bair's better but it doesnt matter cause none of her air moves do enough to kill the enemy. Since Brawl's more aerial based, IMO, because of the floatiness, it makes it hard for Sheik to be as good anymore. Buffed ground moves do nothing for me, I'm always jumping around. Which is why I can't use sheik anymore... sad.
But yeah, Mr. Game & Watch got buffed the most from what I see here, with people saying stuff. I played as him in Melee and in Brawl and I went back and played as him in Melee recently and I really don't see that much of a difference. The only difference are really his nair and up b moves. The up B parachute thing and being able to attack again is a major advantage. That definitely improves him and I think his moves are overall a bit better now so he's definitely boosted a lot. I don't think he plays any differently than in Melee, just he's improved.
I don't see why people are saying Jigglypuff is buffed. It's so hard to play as her now. I don't even know what to say about Jigglypuff now. Sleep's still an ok killing move but it's not as beast. Whatever, I don't care about Jiggs. I think she's too hard to use now to even try.
Ness... I'm very much liking his improvements. So much easier to play as now. I'm not good at identifying specific things but I used to main him in Smash 64 but in Melee he was just too hard to get kills with. He's much better now. I'm thankful they kept him in and didn't replace him with Lucas.
But yeah, Mr. Game & Watch got buffed the most from what I see here, with people saying stuff. I played as him in Melee and in Brawl and I went back and played as him in Melee recently and I really don't see that much of a difference. The only difference are really his nair and up b moves. The up B parachute thing and being able to attack again is a major advantage. That definitely improves him and I think his moves are overall a bit better now so he's definitely boosted a lot. I don't think he plays any differently than in Melee, just he's improved.
I don't see why people are saying Jigglypuff is buffed. It's so hard to play as her now. I don't even know what to say about Jigglypuff now. Sleep's still an ok killing move but it's not as beast. Whatever, I don't care about Jiggs. I think she's too hard to use now to even try.
Ness... I'm very much liking his improvements. So much easier to play as now. I'm not good at identifying specific things but I used to main him in Smash 64 but in Melee he was just too hard to get kills with. He's much better now. I'm thankful they kept him in and didn't replace him with Lucas.
blazefox
Smash Journeyman
Ness got a huge makeover via his yo-yo, but that's it in my opinion. They buffed the power to PK flash, but it's slower and smaller. I think they upped the power to his PK thunder Missile, too. He can kill with hitting himself with that at 70% ><
Demon Kirby
Smash Champion
Most buffed: Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff
Most nerfed: Donkey Kong and Game & Watch
Most nerfed: Donkey Kong and Game & Watch
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
ness hiting himself with that dam pk thunder thing kill at 70 wtff