Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Jiggs > Peach
Falcon > ICs
Neither are as even as some of the suggested Marth MUs.
I'm not going to pretend to know Samus' MUs though lol
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most even matchup in game?
- Thread starter oliman
- Start date
Falcon > ICs
Neither are as even as some of the suggested Marth MUs.
I'm not going to pretend to know Samus' MUs though lol
I think Peach vs Fox is 65-35. Some stages is a bit better and some stages are way worse ofc but 65-35 is something I would say is correct for that MU.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
What do you think Puff/Peach is?
Archangel
Smash Hero
@ Armada I have a question for you. Do you believe a Human Fox will ever be able to play as technically consistent as it takes to show that match is 65-35? Personally I think it's possible considering how well fox does when there aren't many players seen as a Leader or pioneer in fox's development. If a few people ever get the right combination of mental speed and finger dexterity everyone will be in deep ****. 
@ Grim I think it's 60-40 puff personally. but it can be close if the Puff approaches. Watch Genesis 1 finals then watch Apex 1 finals.
Genesis 1: Aggressive puff = entertaining, Seemingly even and very closely contested.
Apex1: Non aggressive puff = not entertaining, seemingly unwinnable, "gay" ~Armada
@ Grim I think it's 60-40 puff personally. but it can be close if the Puff approaches. Watch Genesis 1 finals then watch Apex 1 finals.
Genesis 1: Aggressive puff = entertaining, Seemingly even and very closely contested.
Apex1: Non aggressive puff = not entertaining, seemingly unwinnable, "gay" ~Armada
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I believe I know how the match-up is played and I have a similar opinion to you, but I was specifically asking Armada cause, y'know, best Peach and all 
Archangel
Smash Hero
no offense taken. Armada is the man.
leffen
Smash Champion
not only will a fox actually have to be at Armadas level overall (Mangos FOX skills aren't that good tbh) and then he has to know the matchup just as well as armada AND play it optimized for you guys to see the full potential (65-35).
you really have to play friendlies with armada when you know how peach works to really realize how amazing he is and how little he gets "free" that all other top players who play fox/falco/marth/sheik/puff don't even have to bother with >_>
you really have to play friendlies with armada when you know how peach works to really realize how amazing he is and how little he gets "free" that all other top players who play fox/falco/marth/sheik/puff don't even have to bother with >_>
I thought of this before and forgot, thanks leffen^^, the level Armada plays his character at is another level from probably all other top players. PPs great but yea it's peach.. Mango is overall amazing with all characters, his fox is cool and all but if someone took fox to the "Armada-level" of consistency and spacing / punishing. Things would get ugly for the other characters.
Obviously we would be biased cuz we're from Sweden but if you play Armada for a longer period of time I'm pretty sure you'd agree.
Mango is overall amazing with all characters, his fox is cool and all but if someone took fox to the "Armada-level" of consistency and spacing / punishing. Things would get ugly for the other characters.Obviously we would be biased cuz we're from Sweden but if you play Armada for a longer period of time I'm pretty sure you'd agree.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Bias detected for sure. Especially considering that Axe is probably the one who's taken his character to the highest level anyway.
Still the obvious difficulty difference between fox and all the others aiming for the top spot makes it seem like it won't happen(anytime soon). 6months to a year is a bold statement. Considering....well the highest level of fox play has already been shown it's just a matter of humans getting there....the finger speed....the consistency.....the consistency while some half drunk smasher screams in your ear......I don't think someone will be able to do it honestly.
I'm not saying it's easy to play peach at that level but it's fair to say characters like Peach, Yoshi, Falco, Ness...etc. While having technical cool stuff...it's just in range of what we would say realistic and doable consistently. Fox....well it's just bound to be some side-b SD's in there too often.
Still the obvious difficulty difference between fox and all the others aiming for the top spot makes it seem like it won't happen(anytime soon). 6months to a year is a bold statement. Considering....well the highest level of fox play has already been shown it's just a matter of humans getting there....the finger speed....the consistency.....the consistency while some half drunk smasher screams in your ear......I don't think someone will be able to do it honestly.
I'm not saying it's easy to play peach at that level but it's fair to say characters like Peach, Yoshi, Falco, Ness...etc. While having technical cool stuff...it's just in range of what we would say realistic and doable consistently. Fox....well it's just bound to be some side-b SD's in there too often.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
So how does a perfect (in terms of human ability) Fox play anyway?
Is it the same strategy as current Fox, but with more efficiency due to a smaller technical barrier - or is it a different style that becomes viable due to the smaller technical barrier?
Is it the same strategy as current Fox, but with more efficiency due to a smaller technical barrier - or is it a different style that becomes viable due to the smaller technical barrier?
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Uhh, nearly beating Armada and beating Hungrybox make his Fox skills bad when both of those players normally crush Foxes? Granted, he played stupid in a couple matches against Armada, but that just means he needs tweaking, not that his skills aren't good. Do you perhaps mean strategy instead of skill?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If by "superior" you mean "boring" then sure.
leffen
Smash Champion
ur shallow
so shallow
and KK, not being cg'd for 1 minute for 100% damage when you play a non top tier is SO boring.
bias much
Mew2King
King of the Mews
mango's fox isn't good?
...what?
...what?
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
VA
Smash Hero
I prefer NTSC version, PAL really is inferior, Spain have transitioned to it and the UK would like to.
Also has leffen played against Mango's Fox or is he judging from vids?
Also has leffen played against Mango's Fox or is he judging from vids?
Get what he's saying people... Mango is a great player, but he doesn't play fox the way he's supposed to be played at least vs peach. His fox is also not at the same level as Armadas peach, but since the matchup is actually something like 70-30 fox can get away with not playing to any of his real strengths lol.
Spam_arrows: I don't agree. Axe is really amazing, but since no one actually plays pikachu except Axe, there's no players who knows the matchups vs pika. At least Armada I guess, he hasn't played Axe too much I'd guess. I don't think Axe plays that much with anyone outside AZ except at tournies either right?
Spam_arrows: I don't agree. Axe is really amazing, but since no one actually plays pikachu except Axe, there's no players who knows the matchups vs pika. At least Armada I guess, he hasn't played Axe too much I'd guess. I don't think Axe plays that much with anyone outside AZ except at tournies either right?
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I don't agree that there is only way to play a matchup because everyone plays the game in the way they think is right. And.. how can you say he's not the same level? It's 2 top players, match-ups to me seem to matter a lot less but becomes more about the decision the player makes. If Armada ***** every other Fox, doesn't that tell you enough already?
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
I think Peach/Puff is even, but that's because I play that matchup correctly
What? Why wouldn't matchups matter, do you know what matchups mean? Every character has weaknesses and strengths.
If Armada ***** every other fox except mango (which he beat). It really doesn't tell much, except that Mango is an amazing player and has a very good fox, not that he's good at the fox vs peach matchup or does it the best way possible.
If Armada ***** every other fox except mango (which he beat). It really doesn't tell much, except that Mango is an amazing player and has a very good fox, not that he's good at the fox vs peach matchup or does it the best way possible.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Yeah, LOL. Leffen is smoking crack. Mango would trash him like a Snickers wrapper rofl. Also, nothing new will come out in a few months to a year that will re-revolutionize fox's anti-marth game, lmao. You're lost.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
If there are currently no fox's capable of playing on the level high enough to display the alleged 65-35 fox vs peach advantage, then how can we (read:armada) even be sure that the matchup IS actually 65-35?
Sounds like a lot of speculative bull**** to me. "Oh yea fox wins by a ton but the entire community is doing it wrong"
IDK, I think we should just suck it up and admit peach vs fox isnt so bad instead of holding on to age old beliefs and super-theory conjecture.
Sounds like a lot of speculative bull**** to me. "Oh yea fox wins by a ton but the entire community is doing it wrong"
IDK, I think we should just suck it up and admit peach vs fox isnt so bad instead of holding on to age old beliefs and super-theory conjecture.
dude, wtf?there aren't many players seen as a Leader or pioneer in fox's development. If a few people ever get the right combination of mental speed and finger dexterity everyone will be in deep ****.
mango. jesus.
you think your fox is better than mango's?
wow. rofl talk about a swelled head. you're not even top yoshi and now you think you're top fox? what a joke
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I'd agree that armada might know that matchup better than anyone in the world, but to me it just seems like a roundabout way of johning to beat everyone on earth badly in a matchup and then blatantly claim that absolutely no one is doing it right and if they did, it would be an outrageous disadvantage for peach.
I find that line of reasoning laughable.
but all the top players think their character loses to like, the whole cast, so i guess this is just par for the course.
I find that line of reasoning laughable.
but all the top players think their character loses to like, the whole cast, so i guess this is just par for the course.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
It's not like he's doomed to fail if he continues to play the way he wants to... He had his chances, he just failed/SDed a few things. Of course Armada failed some stuff too but that's the nature of the game... it's ridiculously hard to stay consistent.
Anyways, like I said again everyone has their own way to view a match-up in the way they think it's best for them. You'll never see Mango playing defensive because that goes against his style, match-ups are pretty subjective in that way. Playing with his own style will probably give the best chances to defeat everybody... when you feel uncomfortable trying new things you aren't used to then you'll probably get owned. I mean when I look at him, I'm pretty sure he plays it right because he's trying to abuse the player's and the character's weakness at the same time. That's why I said I didn't exactly understand why match-ups should determine how you play it.. it's really weird to me. Even myself, I always play a match-up in the way I was taught how to play it and in the way I feel the most comfortable.
Edit: JPOBS, I definitely agree with what you said. It makes much more sense.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Oddly enough you proved your lack of knowledge on Axe as a player....interesting considering how obvious the joke was...then again Ironic-ish humor doesn't exist in Sweden yet?...no that can't be right because Leffen gets it....What's wrong with you then?
as for what you say about Fox getting away with not playing on point. That is mostly true. Only high level players who use other characters can really **** them though. Still to I don't think Human foxes will get good enough to play the MU past 60-40.
I'd say fox vs Peach is similar to Sheik vs Marth(NTSC).
It's simply easier for sheik to dthrow people then it is for fox to press 8 buttons for the same effect.
Kage, that's true a specific player may play better using a certain style, that does not make that style better because of that though.
A player that fits the better style would obviously do way better.
spam_arrows: I didn't notice the smiley before and anything posted on smashboards can be serious, doesnt matter how dumb is may seem.
A player that fits the better style would obviously do way better.
spam_arrows: I didn't notice the smiley before and anything posted on smashboards can be serious, doesnt matter how dumb is may seem.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well with that said, I feel like there's too many factors to decide that.. or maybe I'm too much in awe at the things going on when I see 2 top players play. There's only a handful that can adapt perfectly to what the player is using/doing.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
How am I being the shallow one, you didn't even answer my questions. I can't disagree with you or question your reasoning? I even asked you if you meant something other than what I was getting from you in case what I interpreted wasn't what you meant. If you think Mang0's a bad player then you're wrong. If you think maybe Mang0 plays some matchups wrong there's probably some considerable truth to that. Why can't you add to the discussion by clarifying what you meant for us instead of throwing insults out and claiming everyone else is biased?
Archangel
Smash Hero
truthfully if Fox vs Peach was possible to be played past 60-40 Armada would lose alot more often and by alot wider margins. instead he loses to good foxes...less than 7 times a year I'd say. That would be like a Zelda player consistently winning sets against Marth not just any but the best Marth's in the world.
Beat!
Smash Master
Wow, everyone misunderstood leffen.
He's not saying Mango's Fox is bad. >_>
He's not saying Mango's Fox is bad. >_>
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well it would be nice to stop having some ***********.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Well the way he worded it sounded like he did and when I told him that wasn't right and asked if he meant Mang0 plays Fox wrong he called me shallow. Granted I was more abrasive than that but he isn't helping his own case.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Saying his fox skills aren't good? That's pretty direct. I guess I could say **** you and later say lol, you misunderstood me, that really means "top o' the mornin' to ya!"
Archangel
Smash Hero
Everyone should start speaking Swede. That would ****.
I'm sure we would word some things wrong if that was the case.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Probably based on youtube videos.. and that's laughable as well. I watched him play live for a while at RoM 4 and I was like OMG.. what a ridiculous guy.