Morehead, Kentucky 1/31/09

[Tyr_03]

lol okay. Xisin and Hilt are going. I'd like to play them in tournament. Who knows there might even be good players I don't know about coming there. I guess I'm not a top level player. I also play low tier so I guess that already excludes me. I want to get better at the game because I enjoy competition and occasionally making money and very slight recognition in a community of gamers. I really don't see how banning an infinite is so detrimental to the competitiveness of the game that it warrants labeling a tournament as "scrubby" and refusing to come and saying that no one else will because of it.

I guess my main difference of opinion with you is that I don't think banning an infinite that Dedede has will damage the livelihood of the game at all. I also sincerely doubt that even if it was bad for the livelihood of the game, that a small tournament in Morehead, Kentucky is going to make everyone else in the region change their rules as well. If anything your approach to the issue has been detrimental to your cause. You came off sounding pretty arrogant and I really doubt the TO is going to listen to you and will instead listen to Xisin and hold the tournament under those rules if for no other reason than his was a suggestion rather than just a threat. If you're goal is to keep the rules the way you want them to be, you would probably get far more done by going to the tournament, most likely getting first place, and suggesting to the TO that in the future the rules would be changed. Not only would you establish that you're an excellent player and very knowledgable in the game through winning the tournament, but you would also come off looking like a much better person and people would probably listen more. You're a really nice guy in person. I don't really understand why this elitism comes through when you get on smash boards but in this case it's extremely counter productive.

I'm going to make efforts to come to this and unless there's something else going on this day, I'd encourage anyone else from Cincinnati to try to make it. Whether you feel like classifying me as a scrub or an up and coming, I can assure you that Overswarm does not speak for every player in Cincinnati. Just GUNPUNCH! You're going to have to come up with a much better reason than disliking the banning of an infinite or two for me to agree with boycotting an entire tournament, top player or not. If your goals really are as you've stated and this isn't just stubborness or elitism, than I suggest you modify your approach.

 

[Chuee]

I would come but i live on the other side of kentucky, and i dont know what day of the week it'll be on.

Banning D3's standing CG may make some D3's not come but the people that main characters that it works on might be more likely to come because the dont have to worry about getting a stock taken off from a grab. Banning his infinite wont help much and will just cause a bunch of protesting, same with banning mk.

 

[Xisin]

I would come but i live on the other side of kentucky, and i dont know what day of the week it'll be on.

its on a saturday. Do you live in Bowling Green? i know a few guys from there and would like to get in touch with west ky brawlers actually.

 

[clowsui]

Can't go to this any more

Music competition johns (Solo and Ensemble)...

Here's hoping that competition is CANCELLED =D

 

[andy122888]

So guys I feel its time to get a basic list of attendants....just PM if you plan, or maybe coming. If you want to wait until your schedules seem clearer plz do.

Besides that do you guys think a Brawl/Melee tourney will do good? I want both professional and personal opinions.

 

[Shadowbot]

So guys I feel its time to get a basic list of attendants....just PM if you plan, or maybe coming. If you want to wait until your schedules seem clearer plz do.

Besides that do you guys think a Brawl/Melee tourney will do good? I want both professional and personal opinions.

Hold off on melee til next tourney, but you should know I'll be there and if for some reason I'm not beat on my rooms door, you know how to contact me.

 

[Mister Eric]

You drive me nuts OS, on the random note thanks for the snickers at the MWC.

I don't remember much from the MWC (due to lack of sleep) but I do remember that snickers!
beeeeepbeep (thank you.)

I would come but i live on the other side of kentucky, and i dont know what day of the week it'll be on.

Banning D3's standing CG may make some D3's not come but the people that main characters that it works on might be more likely to come because the dont have to worry about getting a stock taken off from a grab. Banning his infinite wont help much and will just cause a bunch of protesting, same with banning mk.

If you want, you could try driving to Louisville and then let their crew drive you to Morehead if you're game. It's about a 2 hr drive from Louisville.

 

[CR4SH]

I'm coming, and I'm bringing the mothership with me. Probably it will be full.

I like the rules as they are. I also enjoy the company of everyone in this stupid argument. I think tournaments are first and foremost (and secondmost and thirdmost) about fun. A few people come for the money, and they usually win. Everyone else comes because they enjoy competition. Synopsis: overswarm has a very skewed view of how important he is, but that's not suprising considering his position.

OS, however, you make a somewhat interesting point. But I fail to follow your agrument. How, exactly, do infinite grabs keep the game healthy. Not that I specifically disagree, at this point I just don't understand where you're coming from. In case your read this, that is.

 

[Exceladon City]

Well you guys can count me in for this little shindig. I've nothing better to do and I love the competition so yeah. Cr4sh, I call shotgun.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

calling shotgun this far in advance? Is that allowed?

lol you gotta deal with the directions if you do oreo and it's a two hour drive. You sure you wanna deal with that? lol

anyways, there should be a semi-large group coming from louisville. I'll give you more information when i figure out how many

 

[Exceladon City]

calling shotgun this far in advance? Is that allowed?

lol you gotta deal with the directions if you do oreo and it's a two hour drive. You sure you wanna deal with that? lol

anyways, there should be a semi-large group coming from louisville. I'll give you more information when i figure out how many

Hey I'm a responsible person. I can be trusted with the directions.

 

[Mister Eric]

Psst, Excel, it's a 2 hour straight drive, one Exit turn right off of it and make one left. Easy peezy.
Btw, I'm not even riding in the mothership and I call Cobain.

@ Cr4sh -- lol at wi-fi'ing last night.

 

[Exceladon City]

Psst, Excel, it's a 2 hour straight drive, one Exit turn right off of it and make one left. Easy peezy.
Btw, I'm not even riding in the mothership and I call Cobain.

@ Cr4sh -- lol at wi-fi'ing last night.

Gotcha. But I'm sure he's still gonna print out Mapquest directions.

 

[Mister Eric]

Gotcha. But I'm sure he's still gonna print out Mapquest directions.

Knowing Hilt...he'll print-screen it.
=P

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Knowing Hilt...he'll print-screen it.
=P

:D

probably wasnt the best idea I've had lol

(cobain!)

 

[Exceladon City]

:D

probably wasnt the best idea I've had lol

(cobain!)

What did you do Hilt?

 

[Overswarm]

I like the rules as they are. I also enjoy the company of everyone in this stupid argument. I think tournaments are first and foremost (and secondmost and thirdmost) about fun. A few people come for the money, and they usually win. Everyone else comes because they enjoy competition. Synopsis: overswarm has a very skewed view of how important he is, but that's not suprising considering his position.

I'm the greatest.

OS, however, you make a somewhat interesting point. But I fail to follow your agrument. How, exactly, do infinite grabs keep the game healthy. Not that I specifically disagree, at this point I just don't understand where you're coming from. In case your read this, that is.

It isn't that infinite grabs themselves keep the game healthy, it is that the game is created with the infinite grabs and you can't take away things from the game without damaging the core. It's true that SOMETHING will always be the best, and that SOMETHING might be infinite grabs. This itself does not make a game poor; MvC2 is very much about infinites and that game turned out fine. When someone says the game would be better without infinites, what they REALLY are saying is "I can't beat it, and I think the game would be more fun". Unfortunately, this creates a game with less options that is more shallow. MK is awsome, but maybe someone beats him with IC infinites.

We can't just alter the game as we choose; we have to see at least evidence first that what we want to remove is shortening the game's lifespan. IC infinites have not. I two stocked Lain twice at the last tournament with my MK in a money match... andh e's the best IC in the midwest. ICs aren't the unstoppable thing people mean them to be. D3's infinites are even LESS important. They only affect a few matchups! DK, Luigi, whoever, they just have to find a secondary. That's the way the game goes.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

edit again: okay... here's my opinion on things. I do believe that the banning of DDD's infinite grab DOES make certain characters more viable, as those characters are basically useless if the opponent knows how to perform the grab. however, I do not feel that the grabs should be banned officially, in highly competitive tournaments. First of all, doing so because it causes an impossible matchup would force you to ban ALL instances that would cause an impossible matchup. Pikachu's chaingrab on fox, ZSS's DSmash chain on fox, Marth grab releasel on ness/lucas, anything that makes the matchup unfair. Mind you, this DOES make more characters viable... but wouldnt banning meta knight do the same? Altering the game to make certain characters viable is just... altering the game. I do feel that it fits well in this tournament though, with it not being an entirely competitive event, but i DO understand the points overswarm is trying to get through. Saying "choose another character" isnt the best choice of words, as true as it is. However, saying "a DK player should know the matchup and have a secondary to deal with it" is a little easier to understand. Saying that it isnt his fault is denying the truth....

overswarm, if you would quit all the elitism talk, alot more people would listen to you.

 

[CR4SH]

We can't just alter the game as we choose; we have to see at least evidence first that what we want to remove is shortening the game's lifespan. IC infinites have not. I two stocked Lain twice at the last tournament with my MK in a money match... andh e's the best IC in the midwest. ICs aren't the unstoppable thing people mean them to be. D3's infinites are even LESS important. They only affect a few matchups! DK, Luigi, whoever, they just have to find a secondary. That's the way the game goes.

OK, how do you respond to no items, 3 stock, 8 minutes? Or, maybe the better point, rules the game does not know, Banned stages, Neutrals only first round, counterpicks. Even more imposed rules like, no sudden death, no stalling, gannoncide wins a match? If you can dismiss "thats ****ing gay" as an argument to form a rule, how can you defend these things?

(reasonable debate is the quickest and surest way to an informed opinion)

 

[Overswarm]

overswarm, if you would quit all the elitism talk, alot more people would listen to you.

I'm well aware. That's why I don't do it. If all it takes is someone being a jerk while telling the truth to make someone shut down, they aren't someone I feel like explaining things to. People on the internet are stupid. They're not as stupid in real life. I treat them accordingly :D

OK, how do you respond to no items, 3 stock, 8 minutes? Or, maybe the better point, rules the game does not know, Banned stages, Neutrals only first round, counterpicks. Even more imposed rules like, no sudden death, no stalling, gannoncide wins a match? If you can dismiss "thats ****ing gay" as an argument to form a rule, how can you defend these things?

(reasonable debate is the quickest and surest way to an informed opinion)

I'm just going to dismiss counterpicks, 3 stock, and 8 minutes because that's an arbitrary way to play the game that people before us simply chose. We chose to do stocks over time because it was more competitive; time matches often revolved around "stealing" kills and was more random. Same reason we use 1v1s rather than FFAs. We put a time limit on so tournaments can finish on time.

Counterpicks were realized when we found certain characters did much better on certain stages. Banned stages came up to circumvent issues along the lines of overcentralization. If you just have to pick counterpick X with character Y or Z to win 100% of the time, why even have counteripcks? Stages are only banned, or should only be banned, when they completely break the game or test a completely different skill set than desired by the community.

Items are in that same boat. Items were originally used in Melee, believe it or not. They weren't removed because, well, they were part of the game. Why remove them if they don't HURT the game? The more you add, the deeper it gets. The deeper the game is, the more layers it has, the longer it lasts. Don't trim a game down, right? Well, Eddie, a GDorf player, was one of the players that ended up getting items banned for good. During a large tournament Eddie used his down+b, the warlock kick, and a capsule spawned in front of him and exploded to kill him. He was knocked out of the tournament. This had no place in competition as it was incredibly random and was not part of a reliable "risk/reward" situation.

Nevertheless, we tried items in Brawl. Almost immediately we found smashballs to be idiotic, but we assumed as much. We attempted to look at other items for a long period of time and watched Jack's competitive item list with great eagerness... but it still wasn't really what we wanted. Chu Dat, while playing Sonic vs. AZ's diddy, did a forward air and accidentally picked up a maxim tomato that spawned right before he did his fair. Randomization not associated with risk/reward (thus separating it from peach's down+b or D3's over-b) detracts heavily from competitive play by its nature. It's just as competitive as someone randomly walking over and pausing your controller during a match or if you, well, tripped. If we could remove tripping reliably, we would.

"Neutral stage" was a misnomer and I had no part in them. The idea was that counterpicks could affect the match heavily while neutrals did not. This was not the case, as many melee stages, just like brawl stages, had unique aspects. FD had no platforms, battlefield had three, etc., etc.... just becuase they were flat and had platforms didn't make them special or less obtrusive. This foolish thought process still exists today and is a pretty easy way of picking out someone that doesn't know what they're doing.

We currently use starter stages, and the idea is to have an odd numbered group of stages that, after alternating the removal of one at a time, will ultimately lead to a fair and agreeable match to both parties. No one wants to start on Delfino against DK, but that's exactly what happened in Melee. The SBR fixed that immediately in Brawl.

"No stalling" is not telling someone they cannot run away or anything of the sort. Stalling is the act of putting yourself in a position where you cannot be harmed nor harm your opponent. The reason this is banned is to keep the game in line with our current restraints. The stock / timer is there so we can have actual competition and not just be playing a game. Adding a stock shows you reliabily who a "winner" is; adding a timer gives you incentive to hide. This is a fault from our own doing, and saying "no stalling" fixes that.

Sudden death is a differnet game entirely. To say it is testing a different skillset is an understatement, and allowing sudden death into play does not help to determine a reliable victor. That said, this is actually still debated today. Some believe we win by stock, not by %, and therefore sudden death should be played.

Ganon does not win during a suicide attack. Bowser does, but this is only due to port advantage. To have one port be a better port than another to an extent that it actually can determine a victor is an arbitrary and pointless addition to the game. Seeing as how Bowser's options are "win" and "tie", we just give him the win 100% of the time.

You could bring forth the argument that infinites are a separate skill set that we don't want in our game, and several have brought this up. However, this would be incorrect. Infinites have been around for a long time and have never hurt the game, but merely changed it. The issue lies in those that are unaware of the infinites and finally stumble upon them only to discover that the game they THOUGHT they were playing isn't the game they were playing at all. It's like playing soccer all through elementary school then coming back in college and wondering how anyone could allow slide tackling. It just wasn't part of your experience and therefore you want it gone. In reality, DK isn't tippity top tier, Luigi doesn't have a good matchup against D3, and Samus is worse than you imagined. You have to deal with this the same way Luigi has to deal with Metaknight being a bad matchup.

While some have argued we should balance the game ourselves, thus leading to Brawl+ and the idea of adding handicaps based on tiers, this mindset is in the minority by a large margin for multiple reasons.


Any other questions?

 

[CR4SH]

Well said.

Edit: Oh wait! Gannoncide doesn't win a match? WTF?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'm well aware. That's why I don't do it. If all it takes is someone being a jerk while telling the truth to make someone shut down, they aren't someone I feel like explaining things to. People on the internet are stupid. They're not as stupid in real life. I treat them accordingly :D

i wanna be just like you when i grow up os

:D

 

[Xisin]

Ganon does not win during a suicide attack. Bowser does, but this is only due to port advantage. To have one port be a better port than another to an extent that it actually can determine a victor is an arbitrary and pointless addition to the game.

Snake. oh well not alot you can do about besides rock paper scissors though.

mmm I'm actually in the middle on all of this. I can see both views you see, just not 100% into each view.. I guess you can say I like both worlds but not all the way. what you are actually seeing with my opinions is just that, a result of playing in various regions for extended periods of time.

For instance i nearly got disqualified at a Rhode Island tournament once for wall infiniting KevinM's Snake. some guy named Dave called me on it and told me if i did it again i was limited to 5 hits and an up smash. (he was the TO)

Moving on the the Midwest region, its a different competitvie scene where you are allowed to do mroe things on alot more stages... again a its different and infiniting is actually encouraged. While talking and playing with Neo today on wi-fi he brought up that our (our as in the midwest) neutral stages encourages a different kind of playstyle than that of his region.

So heres the question i guess. IF the SBR chooses rules then why cant you guys be more unified about such stances? Why does traveling from one region to the next (in kentucky's case we are actually bordering two other regions.) Mean that was have to follow different rules? Saying only scrubs follow an anti-infinite rule set is not the correct answer as such TO's as chibo, nealdt and the mages run an anti-infinite ruleset... and those guys are SBR.

 

[Overswarm]

Snake. oh well not alot you can do about besides rock paper scissors though.

This is unchangeable. First port also has a slight advantage in that if they grab on the same frame, the first port beats those below it.

So heres the question i guess. IF the SBR chooses rules then why cant you guys be more unified about such stances? Why does traveling from one region to the next (in kentucky's case we are actually bordering two other regions.) Mean that was have to follow different rules? Saying only scrubs follow an anti-infinite rule set is not the correct answer as such TO's as chibo, nealdt and the mages run an anti-infinite ruleset... and those guys are SBR.

And are in an incredible minority... infinites aren't even something to be brought up about the ruleset. That's how silly a concept banning them is.

 

[Kyari]

This is unchangeable. First port also has a slight advantage in that if they grab on the same frame, the first port beats those below it.

What me and my friend do is if we play each other in tourney, we give higher controller port number to the opponent during our counterpick, to try to even things out a little... works pretty well IMO.

And the MW not banning the infinite is in the minority, dunno what you're talking about, lol.

 

[Mayling]

I wanted to clear this up before we began to thoroughly practice it.

In doubles, if it's down to 2v1, is it allowed to "pass grabs" between the two characters?
So, X on one side grabs P, hits A so many times and grab releases, then their partner grabs A, hits, releases, then X grabs, etc etc.

Is this considered a standing infinite?

Btw I got around three more peeps coming from Lexington. ^_^ A yoshi, oli, and lucario!

 

[andy122888]

I wanted to clear this up before we began to thoroughly practice it.

In doubles, if it's down to 2v1, is it allowed to "pass grabs" between the two characters?
So, X on one side grabs P, hits A so many times and grab releases, then their partner grabs A, hits, releases, then X grabs, etc etc.

Is this considered a standing infinite?

Btw I got around three more peeps coming from Lexington. ^_^ A yoshi, oli, and lucario!

In a sense yes....but it is an advantage of 2v1. Ness's glitch stance against marth is a game issue not an issue where two players outnumber one. In other words it is allowed.

Thanks for helping with the peeps =]

 

[Mayling]

ok thanks that's what i figured. thank you for the quick response. ;D

 

[Overswarm]

In a sense yes....but it is an advantage of 2v1. Ness's glitch stance against marth is a game issue not an issue where two players outnumber one. In other words it is allowed.

Thanks for helping with the peeps =]

There is no Marth infinite on Ness, just FYI. Might want to turn on a wii and try it, cuz stuff doesn't work. >_>

 

[Tyr_03]

shhh Overswarm don't tell

 

[andy122888]

There is no Marth infinite on Ness, just FYI. Might want to turn on a wii and try it, cuz stuff doesn't work. >_>

Sorry my bad....I forgot that players figured a way out of it. But the point is there are two players against one. The pass grab should be an advantage. Thanks for pointing that out OS

BTW I do not own a wii.....I am about to get one though =].

 

[Overswarm]

Sorry my bad....I forgot that players figured a way out of it. But the point is there are two players against one. The pass grab should be an advantage. Thanks for pointing that out OS

BTW I do not own a wii.....I am about to get one though =].

You can find'em cheeeeeeeeeeap on ebay. Peeps buying them out at stores and expecting to sell them like hotcakes are now panicking because they have 8 wiis they don't want.

 

[Infern Angelis]

Os are u going to this?

 

[Overswarm]

Os are u going to this?

If there is a full car that wants a ride down there, I guess. I didn't plan on driving on my lonesome though.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Okay, just to let you know we'll only be bringing in about 5-7 people from the louisville group. Not much of louisville seems to be able to travel >.>

 

[Mister Eric]

Get down here, cincy!

 

[Overswarm]

Get down here, cincy!

Meh. Tiny tournament, lame rules added on, small pot. I'd just be going either to see my friend at Morehead or to drive the other cincinnati people down.

 

[Xisin]

Well this happens this weekend!

anyway to all those that are coming pizza will be served at the venue, theres also sandwiches drinks and snacks so if you dont want to leave you dont have to. Theres a bunch of other nice restaurants in town if you dont feel like eating at the venue. (ask me for suggestions if you want at the tournament.)

Other things at the venue :
DDR machine, Rockband set up, old school arcades, and of course however many brawl set ups we get.

the venue has a dining area and a gaming area, we're pretty set to use any of it. Anyway have fun if you come.

 

[Shadowbot]

For awhile Marth did have an infinite on Ness just to throw that out there. While we're speaking of infinites Marth does have one on Lucas, Charizard has a grab release infinite on Ness as well. That's just to name a few feel free to add more infinites to this list.

 

[DrakeRowan]

DDR machine.

:O..! I might go now!

Spoiler

lol j/k. Im really not up for traveling again plus I need to watch my money so good luck yall and have fun.