More Metaknight banned tournaments should be run by the community

[M@v]

I was reading Delux's thread about a possible mk banned national, and saw this post by Serris:

Events like this should happen more often. We would see more diversity in play and be able to collect data about how the metagame re-shapes itself when Meta Knight is out of the picture. I wouldn't be able to go, but I fully support the idea and think you should go ahead with it.

I'm a TO in the West/Central Pennsylvania region, and this post made me realize that there are barely any mk banned tournaments being run. If the pro-ban community wants to make a bigger impact, they need to step up and run more mk-banned tournaments. This will accomplish several things:

-It would give everyone(pro and anti ban) valuable data on a non-mk metagame. I wouldn't mind being the one to do this.
-We can get a better picture on how much of the active community really wants mk gone, instead of just all the forum posters who never go to tournaments.
-It could potentially start a ripple effect.
-The community has the power to do this, no one else.

The biggest con I see to this is mk mainers having to switch back and forth between mk banned and mk unbanned tournaments. As an example, the next tournament I plan to run, /Hope4, will likely occur about 3-4 weeks before APEX, which will probably be the biggest smash tournament in history. If mk's banned at mine, a mk player coming to my tournament would have to prep another character, then only have 3-4 weeks to get mk ready.

Another con is some tournaments are established series, and making such a change could really affect turnout, positively or negatively. I feel the best remedy to this would be to have the first tourney only ban mk in doubles, and see how the feedback is. Then move ahead with the full ban.


I want to keep this thread civilized. I would like to hear input from both pro-ban and anti-ban sides here. I think this is an experiment that needs to be done.

 

[Serris]

I was reading Delux's thread about a possible mk banned national, and saw this post by Serris:

D'aww. <3

I want to keep this thread civilized. I would like to hear input from both pro-ban and anti-ban sides here. I think this is an experiment that needs to be done.

The basis for this thread (Meta Knight's legality) is highly controversial and has proven to bring out the worst in the community on several occasions. Don't be surprised if it winds up locked without much input.

For anyone who is reading this thread, we're keeping a very close eye on this right now. Word your replies carefully.

That being said, I really can't see how this can be perceived as a bad idea by either side. As a research initiative, it will give the back room plenty of insight into a Meta Knight-less Brawl scene and may warrant a re-examination of the current ruleset if there's a large enough shift. It could go in favor of either side's argument.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I agree.

EDIT: Spread the word to Allisbrawl and their online tournaments, maybe?

 

[M@v]

I agree.

EDIT: Spread the word to Allisbrawl and their online tournaments, maybe?

Already made a blog there about it.

 

[Ishiey]

I think it's a good idea, but why would you only ban MK from doubles the first time? Like, I read your explanation but I guess I don't feel like it would make that big of a difference, although it certainly doesn't make the transition more difficult.

 

[Serris]

Like you said, it's meant to ease the transition. Banning him outright would be a huge shift from one series event to the next. Banning him in part of it isn't as jarring. That way, the tournament organizer can get feedback from players on whether they want to see Meta Knight completely banned, restricted to singles, or brought back into play.

 

[Savon]

I totally support it. I am pro ban personally, but for the sake of taking a look at how different the brawl metagame would be I see no significant downside. The road to deciding the legitimacy of MK has to start somewhere, and I think this is the perfect place to start

 

[John12346]

It's a good idea, I'll see if I can contact Vinnie about it here in NYC and persuade him into it. Other big TOs or associates with big TOs should try to do the same, y'know?

Personally speaking, though, I think it would be a better idea to just start off by banning MK in Singles simply due to the fact that I would actually be able to cover it in my data, and more than enough people already agree that MK is a broken piece of work in Doubles. People practice this game enough outside of tournaments, so one phase of not using MK shouldn't really screw up any MK mains for Apex.

Decision's up to you, but there are my two cents.

 

[M@v]

Tournament experience is much more valuable than practicing outside of tournaments. There are a lot of x-factors tournament play adds in, the main one being the extra pressure/stress. It affects everyone's gameplay. Its just that some are barely affected at all and other change completely under the pressure.

 

[Scatz]

I think I might try to get TOs to do side tourneys that have MK banned for just a few bucks. I don't want to just see him banned in doubles cause mostly everyone agrees he's broken there. Singles is where we need to get the data from.

 

[M@v]

and more than enough people already agree that MK is a broken piece of work in Doubles.

I don't want to just see him banned in doubles cause mostly everyone agrees he's broken there.

Precisely why he's already been banned in doubles.....oh, wait.

If anything I'm a bigger advocate of him being banned in doubles than I am singles.

 

[John12346]

Well, why not encourage people to have money matches at your tourney, then? I mean, I know people do that A LOT when they need to practice a specific matchup or something...

Not the cleanest solution, but it's the only one that comes to mind...

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, Metaknight is just too potent in doubles. Metaknight works with every other character in the game in a team, including himself. Every team should at the very least have 1 MK on their team. That's centralization, and imo is too much of it.

But back on the topic, I agree that there should be more MK banned events. Everybody poked fun at Nova Scotia when they banned him, but here we are again. Honestly, imo, we're at a point with Brawl where we have two paths we can go down competitively, and whichever one we choose there's pretty much no going back.

 

[tekkie]

new mexico used to have mk-banned tournaments all the time. we had some good backing for them from the local community and people around smashboards. attendance was not adversely affected at all.

 

[M@v]

It probably depends on region too. I'm in a heavier mk region than most, and my ultimate goal as a TO(as should any TOs) is to do what the community(those that come to my tourneys) want to do.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Finally an opportunity for other mains to cash, don't hate on ally tho when he still dominates your tournies.

 

[DFEAR]

the top players using mk are winning correct? well, if they werent using mk they would still be placing top 3 anyway.
whats the problem?

is it that you do not want the top players using the top character to increase their chances to win the tourney?
or is it
low-mid level players are using a character to receive placings they are not rdy for or even at the level for?

or is it really just centralization issues?

imo its more likely the 3rd question. to fix this. i suggest basically what yall suggested anyway. just wanted to broaden the subject a bit really.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

For a while the scene here after our revival was pretty diverse.

But the inevitable move to Metaknight is starting to happen.

And then some players have the gall to say, after having gone almost straight Metaknight at a tournament, that it's just a pocket MK.

Spoiler

YES I'M CALLING YOU OUT Mr.L

 

[M@v]

^Have been guilty of that, although it was more "I'm scared, going mk". When I didn't "Main" mk, he was never my most used character minus 1 ohio tournament in 09, and I did horrible anyway.

 

[Pikaville]

Dedede's everywhere will rejoice if it happens.

 

[Savon]

Everybody everywhere will rejoice if it happens.

Fixed that for ya broham

 

[Serris]

Dedede's everywhere will rejoice if it happens.

Everyone everywhere will rejoice if it happens.

Fixed that for ya broham

As amusing as this is, I think it would benefit everyone to keep the discussion serious and to-the-point.

the top players using mk are winning correct? well, if they werent using mk they would still be placing top 3 anyway.
whats the problem?

The problem is that the tournament results and all current analyses of his moveset indicate that Meta Knight has a clear advantage over the rest of the cast. This is supplemented by the fact that rules have been specially made to keep him in check.

is it that you do not want the top players using the top character to increase their chances to win the tourney?
or is it
low-mid level players are using a character to receive placings they are not rdy for or even at the level for?

A combination of both. We want people to stop using a crutch to win and give the rest of the roster a better chance at being competitive...

or is it really just centralization issues?

...which is never going to happen because of the over-saturation of Meta Knight players. He is the most-used character and most successful.

He has won 53% of all tournament prizes this year.

imo its more likely the 3rd question. to fix this. i suggest basically what yall suggested anyway. just wanted to broaden the subject a bit really.

It seemed more like you were asking for clarification and even coming across as a bit accusatory, but I understand that it wasn't your intent.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

ban mk for /hope 4 mav.

 

[DeLux]

I am kinda underwhelmed by the responses so far on both threads tbh

 

[Allin]

I am kinda underwhelmed by the responses so far on both threads tbh

This is such a great idea, stinks people aren't pushing it as hard as they should, but honestly I don't know the Upper NE meta, but NJ would be the most interesting place for a MK Ban tournament because were so saturated with MK mains here, but you sir deserve mad props for doing this!

Hope it works out for you!

 

[Dotcom]

I am kinda underwhelmed by the responses so far on both threads tbh

At the moment, maybe that's for the better.I would really love to see something like this happen in terms of seeing how results shape themselves without the inclusion of MetaKnight. At this point there's no reason to come bashing people who want to try stuff out seeing as everyone who does play the character has plenty of more tourney options available to them. As a scene we can't progress if we don't at least TRY to push the envelope forward, so rolling this plan into action finally seems like a generally good idea. I know personally I would make it my business to try and make it to one of these tournaments.

 

[Life]

So does this mean no MK at /hope4? Works for me, I'll be trying out my Marth there.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Oh boy here we go (if I wasnt on my phone i'd put a rolls eye smiley here)

 

[tekkie]

the top players using mk are winning correct? well, if they werent using mk they would still be placing top 3 anyway.
whats the problem?

if M2K was using any other character he would have been ***** by ESAM at genesis, even if he had been picking up someone else for a long *** time.

ally and non-MK using high-placers will stay at the top, but MK-only mains will be shuffled around if MK is banned.

 

[-Ran]

Delux, things are happening behind the scenes right now between me and other Tos that I have connections with which would make this significantly larger.

 

[NeoBatou]

I agree. Let's see what happens with this ban.

 

[DeLux]

I kind of don't understand what people mean with "the ban" to be honest

Running an MK Banned Tourney isn't some sort of nationwide mandate. It's more of an elective choice that a TO exercises. There isn't going to be some sort of miracle cure that comes and it's not like "the ban" is going to save the metagame from MK tomorrow.

These results people are waiting for aren't going to come for a long time. "The Ban" is a myth.

What is realistic and possible is determining what a community wants via giving them another option other than what exists currently.

 

[NeoBatou]

Sounds fair.
It does sound better to say that it's more of an experiment if anything....

 

[Angbad]

I don't have much of a problem with top top level players playing metaknight. They could probably beat me with a handful of characters who aren't metaknight. My problem is when i'm at local and regionals and i'm beating someone. They pull out a pocket mk and destroy me.

I've invested so much time into my main and i'm beating them, they pull out mk and can beat me with a character they don't even train all that much with.

For example, I have a pretty good game here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOFSi6eUQBQ I had fun this game. Falco is his main.

Then next game the player goes metaknight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTCXCEuxzVM&feature=related I had no fun this game.

I try to get my friends to start playing brawl and they always check it out and come to the conclusion there is no point in playing if you're not playing as Metaknight.

MK banned tournies would definitely help me to convince some of my friends to come out and give the game a try competitively. They feel like there's actually a chance when metaknight isn't involved.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think MK isn't as broken at the pinnacle of Brawl play, but at a couple steps lower in terms of skill of competitive play he is ridiculously dominate. Plus the best of the best tend to be more original, and their strategy has developed into a mind of it's own. I'm anti-ban (I love the steps the Brawl Backroom has taken), but testing out banning him isn't a bad idea by any means, especially in doubles (I love doubles in Brawl more than singles, but seeing so many bland and unoriginal MK teams makes me snore).

MK ban tournaments not just let TO's see what the game looks like without MK, but it lets us see the characters that get countered by Meta hardcore, and characters that aren't dominate in low, mid, or bottom-tier tournaments. It could really help some players develop and learn new skills, techniques, strategies, and get and promote them to get a "tournament feel" with some of those characters (let's be honest; tournament play is way different from practice games with the added pressure).

 

[NeoBatou]

Who knows? This change just might be the change we need to really get more people into competitive smash and up more character usage across the board.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I love how people seem to think banning MK is a miracle cure for Dedede.

It's not like he has the MUs of a mid-tier character or anything.

 

[Kaptain]

I would like to play at a MK banned tourney myself. I'm a TO, but i run a series, and can't see banning him at this point. There is however about 2 players I play against at tourneys often. If we play are secondaries, its a really close match. However, they don't use their secondaries in tournament play, so I end up loosing everytime. I'm no where NEAR high level play, I'd say I'm a middle pack player. A ban like this can mean the difference in someone like me making it out of pools or not.

 

[Tekk]

I would totally get back into Brawl if there were any MK banned tournies in my region. ^_^

 

[o-Serin-o]

Ban MK, man.

That mother****er has been loose for 3 years, I think it's time for him to retire that muh****in' jersey.


/biasedD3main