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MLG 2014 Feedback / Discussion

ERayz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
292
Location
Lachute, QC
1. Modern stages with DSRM. In my opinion, even with the current stage list, we have stages that bring some random factors, I'm thinking of Pokemon Stadium, Yoshi's Story, and to some extent, Fountain of Dreams. But I understand that for Bo5, we need at least 5 stages so the DSRM still makes sense. DSRM is better than DSR for reasons stated earlier in the thread, where some players have auto-win on certain stage, and it's almost unfair to have them Counter-pick the same stage twice, when their opponent outplays them in all other stage

2. Multiple rounds of Round Robin pools

Bracket pools and straight bracket are sure faster, but multiple rounds of RR pools have proven to be viable, time-wise. The main reason why I say RR pools is because it makes sure the best players will get out of pools, as opposed to bracket pools where a pro player could be unlucky and face another top player in their pool's loser bracket, which is unfair in my opinion.

3. I have no experience with wobbling, and most people seem to agree having it legal, and have good arguments for it; I'd say Yes
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
Who are you? Are you even good at melee?


http://gaminrealm.com/2013/10/16/nintendo-interested-bringing-smash-bros-4-mlg/

Whether you like it or not Nintendo makes or breaks our ability to succeed professionally. Unless you have any ideas how to navigate the uncomfortable conversation of asking Nintendo to allow us to stream if smash 4 wont be there, then you should probably reassess your stance. Smash won't succeed at MLG unless we're allowed to stream.

Also keep in mind that when smash 4 comes out, there are people who are likely to play it competitively that are younger than melee. Im willing to bet its extremely rare anyone picks up melee anymore and decides to play it just for the sake of it, its community is till older and its new blood either comes from the FGC (recently) or people who've played other smash games. When brawl came out socal would have two 100+ tournaments a weekend frequently and I know this was common around the country. Many of the players who stuck around play melee, project M, and 64 as well now. Kicking smash 4 to the curve ruins potential community growth in a new generation of gamers

while I'm glad to see melees growth, a lot of its success are bigger events are due to the broader smash community.
 

caLviN-1260

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Messages
132
Location
WA, USA
NNID
caLviN-1260
Although streaming rights ARE a big part of this, I feel that live spectators is huge as well. MLG events like Columbus and Anaheim are enormous, bring in 10s of thousands. The crowds are incredible, especially for LoL. If we could get Melee the live support similar to the other mainstream games, it would be huge for the competitive Smash scene. The people running it AND Nintendo need to see the passion of their fans. If we were to get Melee/Smash 4 on the competitive circuit again, I'd like to see it with its own big stage and screen just like MLG's other live games. Something like that is something we can all get behind I think, along with MLG and Nintendo.

Also note that Smash was/is a game in the childhoods of many, many gamers. Picture the finals between two fantastic players at the main stage at say... MLG Anaheim. The finals take place after the rest of the events are done. Suddenly you're drawing over all of the LoL guys, the CoD guys, the SC2 guys, the DOTA guys... All these people that have probably played a Smash game at one point or another, and suddenly you have 1000 people watching two guys go at it in Smash.

I'm wondering a bit with my thoughts, but I really feel like Smash has the potential to be something huge if Smash 4 is a competitive game.
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
it might be time to go to my first [inter]national
edit-bring back old school stages. some of the hypest matches ever are on corneria and mute city
 

K.Louis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
66
3DS FC
2836-0421-0500
Oh my god the ignorance in this post is ridiculous. The fact that he is a backroomer and you're someone whose joined in the past month can speak volumes. Better yet, I hope you don't attend on anyone taking you seriously when you using a dick sucking joke as an analogy. He is merely stating a very valid opinion. Communities can live or die by first party support. Look at the numbers of League and Starcraft because of their support. We are barely a blip on the radar compared to those numbers. Firsty part support is sure fire success. Stop being ignorant to that. We all want to see melee but he has a valid point when looking at potential growth we can gain from nintendo.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't have Smash 4, I'm saying that Nintendo shouldn't be the reason why we have Smash 4. If we like it we'll have the tournaments anyways and if we don't then all of Nintendo's support will be funneled into Smash 4 anyways and it'll take away from the playerbase of the other games we actually do play how Brawl momentarily killed Melee just for being new.

I also hope you don't think 1st party support is the thing keeping us from SC2 and LoL numbers. Those games are designed with eSports and eSports/spectator culture as the only thing in mind (in contrast to Nintendo who tries to pretend we don't exist) and internationally there are even television channels dedicated to support those games. Smash and the FGC as a whole functions extremely different from those types of games, SFxT have first party support too but that barely does diddysquat, especially compared to the successes of older Capcom games.

Even if Nintendo's blessing was some secret key to surpassing community sizes of ****ty free to play online MOBAs we wouldn't host any Melee/64 tournaments ever by his argument of Melee being this terrible insult to Nintendo that somehow makes them not want to help us.

Whether you like it or not Nintendo makes or breaks our ability to succeed professionally. Unless you have any ideas how to navigate the uncomfortable conversation of asking Nintendo to allow us to stream if smash 4 wont be there, then you should probably reassess your stance. Smash won't succeed at MLG unless we're allowed to stream.

Also keep in mind that when smash 4 comes out, there are people who are likely to play it competitively that are younger than melee. Im willing to bet its extremely rare anyone picks up melee anymore and decides to play it just for the sake of it, its community is till older and its new blood either comes from the FGC (recently) or people who've played other smash games. When brawl came out socal would have two 100+ tournaments a weekend frequently and I know this was common around the country. Many of the players who stuck around play melee, project M, and 64 as well now. Kicking smash 4 to the curve ruins potential community growth in a new generation of gamers

while I'm glad to see melees growth, a lot of its success are bigger events are due to the broader smash community.

In addition to what I wrote above I just want to point out that

1. One would assume that Nintendo wouldn't neglect MLG streaming rights after the Evo PR nightmare
2. After Evo and the Smash doc the amount of new blood coming into Melee is just as about as the amount of people coming back
3. From the standpoint of an older community new games are a double-edged sword. In the case of almost every single community (including Melee) game sequels come in and almost instantly wipe the scene of the older game out bar a small group a strong enthusiasts. Melee's revival is unique and a mix of a lot of different things coming in place but Brawl is likely to have the same sort of death once Smash 4 comes along.
 

Anth0ny

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
4,061
Location
Toronto, Ontario
nintendo is not going to support competitive smash 4

stop being silly you guys

on-topic: I think we can all agree the Apex ruleset should be used. As fun as some of the old legal stages are, the game has evolved and so has the stage list.

Touney format should depend on how many setups/time/entrants you expect. If the schedule is tight, go with bracket pools. If not, round robin would be awesome. I think bracket pools would probably make more sense for a tournament of this scale.

Wobbling legal. duh.
 

thetones

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
18
Location
Central PA, USA
  • Stage list (modern stage list, or thowback? Pokefloats?) Modern Stage List
  • Tournament format (pools, bracket pools, straight bracket) Pools
  • Wobbling Up to 300%

    Solid Jake, please don't just be teasing us.
 

-ShadowPhoenix-

Smash Bash
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
2,295
Location
El Paso, Texas
NNID
ShdwPhnx
3DS FC
2595-1989-8575
Part of me thinks bringing back old stages is stupid, but most players won't counterpick to them anyways so it's fine I guess.
Wobbling should be allowed since it really only benefits 1-2 people in the bracket and it'll diversify the top end of the bracket anyway.

Pretty funny how everyone wants the modified DSR that disables double FD. All thanks to M2K haha.
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
Given that there's no charitable cause and as it'll be on the heels of Nintendo releasing smash 4, I wouldn't bet on them turning the other cheek again.

You don't have to be forced to like it, just respect that its the new game in the series for now and that it will have a large competitive scene that should have its time to shine. Much as melee complained about Brawl, it was fine competitively and it'd be hard to believe if smash 4 isn't either. Respect or support smash 4 because in the end it'll only help the entire smash community, including melee. There wasn't any point where Brawl killed Melee and its existence has only helped melee expand. It brought it a younger generation of players, expanded the community, and reignited interest in smash.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
So can teams please have a large place in this just like in the 2006 days? Armada is interested in coming, but only if doubles is a large part. He only likes competing in doubles. I just spoke with him.
Not to scare you, but are you even going to be allowed to enter after the splitting debrawlcle? Hopefully you are, but idk the specifics of what MLG said.
 

AllyKnight

Banned via Administration
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
10,881
Location
*'~-East Coast/Quebec/Michigan-~'*
Good job Melee.

I had the idea that EVO was part of MLG and they were satisfy by last summer's performance for some minute but this is completly different! Can't wait to watch the streamz
 

♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡

Anti-Illuminati
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,863
My reaction as far as Melee isn't confirmed:




1. Traditional ruleset (DSR) and stages (NO Brinstar, KJ64 etc.)
2. RR Pools and DE Bracket
3. Wobbling legal
 

Pizzaman

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
70
Location
The Mitten
1.Modern stagelist. And also don't we have that players choice clause where you can go to any stage if you both agree to it?
2. Wobbling legal. Wobbles himself is retired, so I doubt anyone else will get as far as he did with it on.
3. RR brackets. Gives more time for warmups and such.
 

Sixth-Sense

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Messages
689
Location
San Francisco, Venezuela (not the famous one)
How is it a beta? It's got all the characters expected to return, it's the game. It'll get updates, balance patches, additional characters, but those are the same for any game.

Just bc its got all the characters returning doesn't mean its gone gold, unless they have somehow fixed every major bug or mechanical issue in the game, its still in beta form, its probably why the next build is called Project M 3.0 and not just Project M

when it was 1.0 that was basically alpha
2.5->3.0 beta
3.0->? would finally be gold
 

Acryte

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
986
Transportation to this tourney may be difficult. Expect major layovers due to flying pigs.
 

Ezzee

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
187
Let's just start banning everything that's "lame." Let's ban all chaingrabs, Armada's Young Link, Falcon's who don't knee every chance they get. Hell let's just start banning characters that are considered "lame". Sheik, Jiggs, IC's, Samus, Young Link and anyone who has a defensive/campy play style
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

PhD; Smash Community Studies
Premium
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
3,263
Location
Ontario, Canada
3DS FC
2191-7691-7941
Let's just start banning everything that's "lame." Let's ban all chaingrabs, Armada's Young Link, Falcon's who don't knee every chance they get. Hell let's just start banning characters that are considered "lame". Sheik, Jiggs, IC's, Samus, Young Link and anyone who has a defensive/campy play style
We should ban people who only have 1 leg.

LAMENESS MUST BE ERADICATED!
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Really excited for this. Dunno how it's gonna turn out, but ideally we'd get all 4 (yes even Smash 64, though I can see why that's unrealistic) official smash games in (I have no problem with PM but I don't imagine that'd happen. But if it does, that's hype!)

I don't want to exclude any of the smash games, they're all getting my support for this! So excited!
 

CaptinMoses

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
55
Location
Manchester, UK
Let's just start banning everything that's "lame." Let's ban all chaingrabs, Armada's Young Link, Falcon's who don't knee every chance they get. Hell let's just start banning characters that are considered "lame". Sheik, Jiggs, IC's, Samus, Young Link and anyone who has a defensive/campy play style
Yes. It should be Fox only FD no Items
 

goateeguy

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
795
Location
right behind you
It's looking like everyone prefers the modern stagelist. If you want any other stages, they should be KJ64, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Mute City, Poke Floats (those are in order of jank, add them in order and cut off wherever you see fit). But I don't think many people would object to the standard six (FD FoD YS DL BF with PS as a counterpick only stage).

The tournament format really depends on the tournament; bracket pools were best for Evo because it was the biggest Melee tournament of all time and running round robin pools before the bracket would take ages, particularly given the limited number of setups they had. However, people generally like playing in a tournament with pools the best because it gives everyone the most opportunities to play; even the worst player there gets to play a set with 4, 5, or 6 other people instead of going 2 and out. Pools would make the players happiest, but time constraints may necessitate speedier options.

My stance on wobbling (heavily influenced, admittedly, by Wobbles himself) is that it's so difficult to set up that it isn't unfair. It requires maneuvering the Nana skillfully to keep her close enough while simultaneously closing the gap with the opponent and mindgaming a grab somehow. You can't just rush them down to get that grab, and grabbing can't be all you attempt to do. Even with Wobbling legal, ICs spend a lot of time in the neutral game playing defensively, working for an opening, and they get thoroughly disrupted if someone gets onto Nana. Wobbles makes the setups and execution look easy, but he was good enough to get second at Evo; he can make worse characters look unfair.
 

Acryte

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
986
I like the idea of bracket pools but round robin for the top 8 in pools
 

Vino

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
36
Hello all!

If you have not heard we have just started working on some exciting plans for 2014! Right now we don't have a lot of information to share, but we do want to hear your feedback! Please send me any questions, suggestions, or general feedback here so that we can make it the greatest year the community has ever seen! I will post in more detail for what we want to hear soon. For now, let's start with this.
  • Stage list (modern stage list, or thowback? Pokefloats?)
  • Tournament format (pools, bracket pools, straight bracket)
  • Wobbling

I will update this thread when I can. And I will post updates on twitter @SolidJakeGG
Stage List should be the modern stage list (BF, DL, FoD, FD, Yoshi's, and PS as a counterpick), please no throwbacks.
Round robin pools would be the best.
Wobbling should be legal.
 

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Just a couple things to say about the Smash 4 discussion...

People complain about Nintendo not supporting the community, how's it going to look when the community doesnt support their new game? Theyre already super touchy about letting us stream stuff as it is.
If Nintendo wants the Melee community to support their games, then they shouldn't make games where they deliberately do the opposite of what the Melee community wants. That's a step beyond simply "not supporting the community. To some extent, it can be seen as an attempt to destroy the community.

The same could be said of them blocking streams and let's plays. There's a reason why, every time Smash is mentioned in esports cast these days, the casters begin lamenting Nintendo's decisions and commending the communities for continuing to exist in spite of everything. Word has spread: There's a super dedicated group of fans out there, and Nintendo has trampled them. Even people who have never played smash-- SC2 players, League players, SF players-- now know this story, and in this story Nintendo is clearly the villain.

The 180 they pulled with the Evo streams indicates at least one thing, though-- Nintendo doesn't like the prospects of esports villainy. More to this point, Sakurai came forward and said that Smash 4 will be more considerate of the desires of competitive players than Brawl was. Perhaps that will resolve all of this. Maybe Smash 4 will be amazing. Maybe Nintendo won't interfere with the streams and the vods. Maybe the community will like it so much that we'll ask for it on MLG not as a favor to Nintendo, but because we love the game?

Who knows, but one thing should be clear-- the community, not Nintendo, are in a position of power, here. If Nintendo blocked MLG streams, even after all this, they'd be unleashing a mountain of bad press, as you said, right on the heels of releasing smash 4-- a traditional video game on systems that are already struggling to appeal to traditional video gamers.

Should MLG include smash 4 if Nintendo asks for it? Absolutely. Even knowing nothing about the game, who wouldn't love to see it at least for one season? Should it be promoted over Melee because "Nintendo says so," though? Absolutely not. If nothing else, we've learned that although Nintendo can block streams and youtube channels, they can't tell us what game to love.
 

Rob_Gambino

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Messages
1,206
I don't care about any of that, but please have CRT tvs. Don't do what you guys did with brawl.
 

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
I don't care about any of that, but please have CRT tvs. Don't do what you guys did with brawl. Poor ICs.
Oh yeah. This x some crazy big number. Like I couldn't repeat it enough because there aren't enough particles in the universe to store the repetitions.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Should MLG include smash 4 if Nintendo asks for it? Absolutely. Even knowing nothing about the game, who wouldn't love to see it at least for one season? Should it be promoted over Melee because "Nintendo says so," though? Absolutely not. If nothing else, we've learned that although Nintendo can block streams and youtube channels, they can't tell us what game to love.
If MLG has to decide between running Smash 4 with Nintendo support and Melee without it, which do you think they will choose?

Personally, I'm banking on Smash 4 being impossible to run at tournaments because of no wired controllers or some other ridiculous oversight. I know people looking forward to Smash 4 will find that statement petty and similar to the usual barlw hate, but as far as I'm concerned, there is not enough room in the FGC for 2 Smash games to coexist. 64 and P:M are great, but they don't have the potential to be mainstream like Melee does. Which game MLG decides to support may very well determine the future of Smash as a whole. We may have (at best) a somewhat decent Smash 4 that lasts for a couple years, or we can continue the legacy of Melee for as long as I can imagine any competitive game can last. Melee will either fall to the wayside as "just another old competitive game that was replaced with an inferior sequel", or it can be the one revolutionary game that is actually able to withstand the test of time and become something that lasts for decades, coming to resemble major sports like basketball and football that people grow up with their entire lives.

Personally, I choose the latter. If that means sacrificing the short-term population boost a mediocre Smash 4 could provide, then too bad for Smash 4 players. If you are dead set on Melee for life, you have to get it into your head that Smash 4 is not going to be another barlw repeat. The game will probably be much more polished and at least slightly more competitive (I don't doubt the general techniques working well, but who really knows how balanced it will be or what kinds of glitches may crop up to wreak havoc). If you combine that with support from MLG and Nintendo, you'll be hard pressed to find people who'd still rather play Melee even if it's obviously the better game. Unfortunately, MLG is, at the end of the day, a business. I'm not sure the staff can truly understand the repercussions their future decisions will have on this community or if they even care enough for it to influence their decisions. It's not even clear where AlphaZealot's loyalties will lie as an old MLG employee. For all we know, the forums could get a massive overall to promote Smash 4 while they try to leave Melee in the dust. The same **** happened with barlw, which was a much easier force to resist because of how blatantly awful it is. I'm not trying to be all pessimistic, but I'd rather this inevitable conflict not sneak up on the community so at least think about what your priorities are concerning the series and what direction the community should go in.

If you think this kind of thing can't happen, then all you need to do is look at the Halo community. Starting with Halo 3 (and some diehard players that competed in the original would argue Halo 2), gameplay began to get watered down and worse and worse for competition. Halo: Reach showed record-breaking inactivity not long after launch, and Halo 4 was even worse. The community lost their spot on MLG, and a much more poorly recognized league had to replace them. Just a couple of weeks ago, the league tried to host a Halo 3 and Halo 4 tournament, and it ended up getting something ridiculous like 8 teams total for the whole event. There is one last hurrah for another Halo tournament (they're begging for donations to use as a prize pool), but so far only 3 teams passes have been sold, and no one's talking about it at all. Bungie/343's ****ty game design the past few games has literally killed competitive Halo, and hope for Halo 5 is at an all time low. If we accept Smash 4 as the new status quo, you are putting Nintendo in full control over the future of competitive Smash. If Smash 4 is decent enough to stick around for even a full year with most of the community's support, players will not decide to gradually switch back because there will be nothing to switch back to. barlw was so bad that people switched back to Melee super quickly after release. If Smash 4 gets MLG+Nintendo+community support, it could be barlw-level awfulness and still last a year. If that's how it plays out, I don't see any way there will ever be a RoM 7.
 
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