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MK Matchup's 3.6

sneakytako

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You know what I mean lol. CC the latter hits by SDIing into the ground. Do I have to spell it out each time?

The reason why I'm sure that fox can CC ftilt is because it's been done to me, because our meta has already moved past that step.

I mean, if you want to cc ftilt I guess that's fine, you're guaranteed to get some percent. But eventually you're going to play against a fox that will cc you back, and on that day you're going to say 'god damnit I should have practiced cc grab'
 
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Ya Boy GP

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I can tell you I know for a fact you fox can cc ftilt, even if you're hit in the air. You should probably try practicing that. What percent was fox when he was trying to cc? When does mk ftilt break cc?
Fox can't even CC the first hit of ftilt because he's still in landing lag of the nair. Between the second and third hit I don't even know if it's possible to cc ftilt with Fox because you still need to absorb the hits of MKs ftilt, which takes AT LEAST one frame (probably more). Then you'd need to move your control stick from down to the side in 1 frame and hit the A button, which you probably can't do 100% consistently since it's not something you can grind into your muscle memory and it's done on reaction. Then MAYBE ftilt would hit MK. Even if it's theoretically possible, you won't see Foxes do this for a LONG time because it's completely un-intuitive and no one would think of doing this.

SDI down doesn't do anything in this situation since you're already on the floor.
You should. It's useful information.
You know, we're not the only two people in the world with a PM setup with Fox and Metaknight unlocked, you can test it yourself too. Boiko doesn't even main MK and I don't even main Fox so we don't need this information nearly as much as you do.
 

GuruKid

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Super Theory Bros. My favorite smash game.

I'm finding Falco to be more troublesome than Fox nowadays. I play against Jaden (Vanz) and Gallo, who both now have been developing their Falcos, and a pew-pew'ing defensive falco is pretty darn tough.
 

Narelex

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Super Theory Bros. My favorite smash game.

I'm finding Falco to be more troublesome than Fox nowadays. I play against Jaden (Vanz) and Gallo, who both now have been developing their Falcos, and a pew-pew'ing defensive falco is pretty darn tough.
Infinity gave his thoughts on the MU earlier in the thread and I have to agree with him. Its evenish. I'd need to see more footage of Falco vs MK that contradicts that fact before I would change it.
 
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Narelex

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Yeah but Infinity isn't that good.
LOL, Just said I agreed with some of the guy's points not that it was due to him having played at tourneys.

Have also been talking to Boiko about Spacies in general over PM's. I think leaving them where they are atm is a fair place until tourney results/ Other High level players prove otherwise
 
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Boiko

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I think Falco is pretty tough when it comes down to it. I don't think it's far from even, but it is difficult. You really need to close the gap on his and DD just outside of his effective range. If he tried to laser, weave in and punish with upsmash, tilts, or even nair if you can swing it. If he tries to close the gap and approach, use your speed to dash away, then dash back in when he inevitably tries to chase with a laser. I think the going in the air is pretty decent in this MU, especially since Falco can't really threaten from below with anything that isn't up tilt.

Pinning him down in the corner is pretty much the best way to try to approach this match up, but it's obviously easier said than done. I would recommend watching videos of melee Marth vs. Falco. I would play it almost exactly the same.
 

Narelex

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I think Falco is pretty tough when it comes down to it. I don't think it's far from even, but it is difficult. You really need to close the gap on his and DD just outside of his effective range. If he tried to laser, weave in and punish with upsmash, tilts, or even nair if you can swing it. If he tries to close the gap and approach, use your speed to dash away, then dash back in when he inevitably tries to chase with a laser. I think the going in the air is pretty decent in this MU, especially since Falco can't really threaten from below with anything that isn't up tilt.

Pinning him down in the corner is pretty much the best way to try to approach this match up, but it's obviously easier said than done. I would recommend watching videos of melee Marth vs. Falco. I would play it almost exactly the same.

Roy and Samus are the only two I'm sure of that belong in unfavourable atm
 
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sneakytako

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Maaaan playing against dp's falco with mk was not fun. Laser's shut down aerial approaches and dash dance, dair stuffs most grounded approaches.

Making the most out of a grab is super important in that mu. You gotta murder that bird with one tech chase.

**** that MU I'm going marth lol.
 

Narelex

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Maaaan playing against dp's falco with mk was not fun. Laser's shut down aerial approaches and dash dance, dair stuffs most grounded approaches.

Making the most out of a grab is super important in that mu. You gotta murder that bird with one tech chase.

**** that MU I'm going marth lol.
Never said it was fun, If I had to rate Mu's on anti-fun I'd put GnW, *Ivysaur* and Falco near the top since they're infuriating to play vs.
 
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Lawn Chair

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I know that you're a good player and decently credible when it comes to how Meta Knight operates but just knowing how a character operates doesn't mean you're qualified to make an assessment on a MU that you may have not played at a significant level. I'm not saying that this is the case, but it's just something for everyone reading to keep in mind.

For example, being "light and very easy for Fox to combo" isn't indicative of a bad match up. Meta Knight has the tools to counter Fox's primary approach of nar>shine by using crouch cancel forward tilt, which even at very low percentages leads to a tech chase situation where MK can cover multiple tech options quickly. Fox has a counter to this with drill, which of course, can't be CC'd. But there is counter play, such as shield, or WD back ftilt/dtilt or even run up up smash. Meta Knight's juggles on Fox and his ability to put him off stage and edge guard him are top notch. However, on the opposite side of the coin, if Fox lands a drill, nair, or shine, he can usually convert into a grab or up smash. Putting MK in the air where he has strong aerial follow ups while MK struggles to come down. It's a very even punish game and a very even neutral game. If MK camps at the proper distance, Fox can't even laser. Being light and easy to combo doesn't mean anything. Match ups are determined almost strictly by the neutral game, and MK is one of the few characters who has the tools to counter Fox in the neutral.

As for Marth, there is no such thing as "easily outspacing" a character with a good dash dance. Marth has to rely on his ground game and grabs here which are both outranged by Meta Knight's down tilt so Marth is the one who has to approach into Meta Knight's zone in order to win the neutral. Meta Knight has superior ground speed, superior pokes, and arguably better ground to air launchers, where Marth has a difficult time coming down. Both characters have extremely similar strengths with trade offs in different areas, such as MK having a better run speed, and Marth having a greater grab range. The punish game feels like it is pretty even. And regarding "death combos that are easy to pull off" uh, lol, no. Just SDI and use your recovery mix ups to get back on stage.

And being one of the best MK's on the board isn't saying much, lol.
Fox's primary approach of nar>shine

Just by saying that just kinda shows me the little experience you've had with foxes or any knowledge of MK's neutral. Fox shooting lasers is not escape-able if you jump high enough to not get hit he goes below you and covers your landing option into a strong punishs, go to ledge you get dtilt everytime you grab ledge and eat more lasers. Fox doesn't have to approach he can just counter approaches with his high priority aerials, his fast dash dance to counter any grab or aerial approach from MK, etc. Saying that their punish game is somewhat even is just ridiculous in itself killing off the top is the strongest option in smash. MK can do it vs Fox but its way more common and way easily obtained by Fox. MK can die as early at 65-70ish percent depending on stage and other factors.

What you said Marth on the other hand is just strictly false
What do mean Marth has approach MK? Marth doesn't approach in any matchup? (Expect for Fox, but not really just baiting things from Fox is really what is Marth's goal) Marth has fairs and downtilts to zone out MK, and MK doesn't outrange Marth?! MK's sword hitboxes are (I forget the T word that describes it) meaning it can't clank with anything, MK isn't outranging Marth's moves MK hits him out of downtilt and other ground moves because Marth poorly timed his move or MK poked his hand. You can't SDI out of Marth's combos, if Marth drops a combo on Fast fallers its because of faulty execution allowed them to escape. Watch all the combos M2K has done with Marth on Fox and Falco. INESCAPABLE not matter what they do its impossible to escape from it. Only certain moves you can escape. For instance, If you don't want to get Ken combo'd you DI away and sometimes down depending on certain factors. Now what? You're off stage vs one of the best edgeguarders and in my opinion one of the best MK edgeguarders.

To be frank. I don't really care about saying I'm the best or anything like that. But for future MK players I rather weed out the false things being said about MUs and overall character play on MK. When I say I'm 100% certain on these two MUs any further MU that I say I'm pretty sure I've got it spot on. I mean it so if you want to continue with this. If anyone who meets me at a tourney. We can find a setup and set the record straight I don't even main these characters in PM but I great knowledge from playing against many good foxes in PM (Zero, M2K, Redd, Larry, etc) and also just transitioning from Marth in Melee (My Main) and just messing around in PM with him. That is what I think on the matter and I'm pretty certain that you couldn't change my mind
 
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Boiko

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Fox's primary approach of nar>shine

Just by saying that just kinda shows me the little experience you've had with foxes or any knowledge of MK's neutral. Fox shooting lasers is not escape-able if you jump high enough to not get hit he goes below you and covers your landing option into a strong punishs, go to ledge you get dtilt everytime you grab ledge and eat more lasers. Fox doesn't have to approach he can just counter approaches with his high priority aerials, his fast dash dance to counter any grab or aerial approach from MK, etc. Saying that their punish game is somewhat even is just ridiculous in itself killing off the top is the strongest option in smash. MK can do it vs Fox but its way more common and way easily obtained by Fox. MK can die as early at 65-70ish percent depending on stage and other factors.

What you said Marth on the other hand is just strictly false
What do mean Marth has approach MK? Marth doesn't approach in any matchup? (Expect for Fox, but not really just baiting things from Fox is really what is Marth's goal) Marth has fairs and downtilts to zone out MK, and MK doesn't outrange Marth?! MK's sword hitboxes are (I forget the T word that describes it) meaning it can't clank with anything, MK isn't outranging Marth's moves MK hits him out of downtilt and other ground moves because Marth poorly timed his move or MK poked his hand. You can't SDI out of Marth's combos, if Marth drops a combo on Fast fallers its because of faulty execution allowed them to escape. Watch all the combos M2K has done with Marth on Fox and Falco. INESCAPABLE not matter what they do its impossible to escape from it. Only certain moves you can escape. For instance, If you don't want to get Ken combo'd you DI away and sometimes down depending on certain factors. Now what? You're off stage vs one of the best edgeguarders and in my opinion one of the best MK edgeguarders.

To be frank. I don't really care about saying I'm the best or anything like that. But for future MK players I rather weed out the false things being said about MUs and overall character play on MK. When I say I'm 100% certain on these two MUs any further MU that I say I'm pretty sure I've got it spot on. I mean it so if you want to continue with this. If anyone who meets me at a tourney. We can find a setup and set the record straight I don't even main these characters in PM but I great knowledge from playing against many good foxes in PM (Zero, M2K, Redd, Larry, etc) and also just transitioning from Marth in Melee (My Main) and just messing around in PM with him. That is what I think on the matter and I'm pretty certain that you couldn't change my mind
It's fine, I don't need to change your mind, just like you won't change mine.

To set the record straight, I never once suggested that you jump up high enough to avoid Fox's lasers. That's probably the dumbest thing that you could actually do, lol. You close the gap so that he can't safely shoot lasers anymore. Same reason lasers are bad in the Fox ditto. And maybe I'm misreading this, but are you saying that Fox dtilts you every time you go to ledge? And seriously, aerial approach from Meta Knight? Come on, I KNOW you know better than that.

The word you're looking for is transcendent. The big different with Marth and MK's down tilt is that Marth extends his hurtbox notably farther than MK does, and because the sword property is transcendent, you go right through his sword and hit his hand. You shouldn't be putting yourself in the position to be above Marth in the first place. Understandably, you WILL be put in that position when Marth inevitably has a read on your movement and grabs you, but his punish games on spacies and Meta Knight are entirely different and difficult to compare. You can SDI anything that puts you in hitlag, lol. And when Marth goes into the air, you're already winning. Aerial based Marths are significantly worse than ground based Marths, especially against a character like MK who can quickly get under you and juggle. Edit: And I also never said that Marth has to approach Meta Knight, in fact, I inferred quite the opposite about how they have similar strengths on the ground. What I said is that Marth needs to go into Meta Knight's zone, which is, where they can both hit each other.

I get what you're saying about weeding out misinformation. But stating something as an undeniable fact simply because you're under the assumption that you're the best Meta Knight player (which, very well may be true, I'm not saying the opposite), doesn't make it correct.
 
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Narelex

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Marth Seems to be one of our most controversial MU's so far, I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on the matter.

Leaving it off the list until we can crack this.
 
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Boiko

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Oh, and Fox can die as early as 20% with back throw>read on recovery>dair. Punish game doesn't dictate a match up.
 

Lawn Chair

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Tell that Yoshi and Bowser from Melee, they would love to talk about how Shiek's best punishs doesn't dictate anything
 

Narelex

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Tell that Yoshi and Bowser from Melee, they would love to talk about how Shiek's best punishs doesn't dictate anything
That's a fundamentally flawed argument. Bowser gets destroyed because sheik's kit is better then his in every conceivable way in Melee. She has a vastly superior neutral and neutral is how you convert to punishes so she ripped apart Bowser in Melee.
 
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Boiko

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That is an extension of the neutral game. If Sheik could never win the neutral, it wouldn't matter how strong her punish game is. Because she can easily win the neutral against these characters, it's important to then consider how far she can take each "win" in the neutral.

Citing a punish game alone as the reason why a character wins a match up is fallacious.
 

sneakytako

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Lawn chair, how do you beat a good peach? I can't get close to beating hanky panky with mk, I've been going marth in the MU and doing way better but how would you play in that mu?
 

Strong Badam

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random opinions that I don't plan to elaborate on so if you don't take them to heart I'm not offended.
I currently think Fox beats MK right now, but if I play it more i could see an even MU (like in the distant future). For now I think it's -1.
I think Falco is also even, not +1.
I think Luigi and Falcon are both +2.
I think Sonic is +1.

I don't feel particularly strongly on any other matchup. The main one I could see is Diddy being +0 instead of +1. I plan to play Junebug in that MU a bit since he'll be staying at my apartment for LTC3 this weekend, I'll report back with my findings.
 

DiZZ

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dk mk is super bad for dk mk can reaction tech chase dk to death no matter di or tech
 

Lawn Chair

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Lawn chair, how do you beat a good peach? I can't get close to beating hanky panky with mk, I've been going marth in the MU and doing way better but how would you play in that mu?
Sharking is your best option. You have so many kill options on her, and she does not have a strong punish game on you. Uair into up-b is an insanely strong kill option. Only thing you have to worrying about trading and our turnips

If you have any other specific questions just ask me
 

Missile

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In 3.6b, I don't think our Ganon matchup is +2...

We're combo food, he can chain grab us just like he can Sheik and although our moves are transcendent hitboxes he outranges us with all of his moves, and all of them are faster than most of ours (jab, ftilt, uair, bair for the most part)
 

Narelex

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In 3.6b, I don't think our Ganon matchup is +2...

We're combo food, he can chain grab us just like he can Sheik and although our moves are transcendent hitboxes he outranges us with all of his moves, and all of them are faster than most of ours (jab, ftilt, uair, bair for the most part)
He's incredibly slow on the ground, we outpace and outpoke him in neutral, it's very easy to combo and edgeguard him.

None of Ganon's moves are faster then ours. his Jab is frame 3 but so is our Ftilt. Every other move that matters in neutral is slower then ours.
His grab range is pathetic so you shouldn't be getting grabbed in the first place. Punish game isn't how you dictate a MU, It has to do with how the characters interact in Neutral typically and MK has a far superior one due to his speed and DD.


This sounds more like you personally have issues with the MU. Me and other knowledgeable MK's agree its heavily in our favour.

If you need tips in the MU feel free to ask.
 
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Missile

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He's incredibly slow on the ground, we outpace and outpoke him in neutral, it's very easy to combo and edgeguard him.

None of Ganon's moves are faster then ours. his Jab is frame 3 but so is our Ftilt. Every other move that matters in neutral is slower then ours.
His grab range is pathetic so you shouldn't be getting grabbed in the first place. Punish game isn't how you dictate a MU, It has to do with how the characters interact in Neutral typically and MK has a far superior one due to his speed and DD.


This sounds more like you personally have issues with the MU. Me and other knowledgeable MK's agree its heavily in our favour.

If you need tips in the MU feel free to ask.
I'm not saying he's positive in the matchup, I just think 70-30 is way too far from reasonable. I only recently started playing MK and I can see where we outclass Ganon but I don't think 70-30 is accurate. It feels like a 60-40 at most playing against a good Ganondorf that knows what he's doing.

Where he's screwed, it seems, is when we're at an advantage (stock or %) and force him to approach. His approach tools are, for the most part, useless against MK.
 

Narelex

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I'm not saying he's positive in the matchup, I just think 70-30 is way too far from reasonable. I only recently started playing MK and I can see where we outclass Ganon but I don't think 70-30 is accurate. It feels like a 60-40 at most playing against a good Ganondorf that knows what he's doing.

Where he's screwed, it seems, is when we're at an advantage (stock or %) and force him to approach. His approach tools are, for the most part, useless against MK.
+2 is a 60/40
 

Missile

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+2 is a 60/40
Then I must have no clue how that works. As I understood, even (50/50) is +0, +1 is 60/40 and +2 is 70/30

If that's not how it is then all of these 8 years of smash have been a lie.
 

Lawn Chair

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I'm not saying he's positive in the matchup, I just think 70-30 is way too far from reasonable. I only recently started playing MK and I can see where we outclass Ganon but I don't think 70-30 is accurate. It feels like a 60-40 at most playing against a good Ganondorf that knows what he's doing.

Where he's screwed, it seems, is when we're at an advantage (stock or %) and force him to approach. His approach tools are, for the most part, useless against MK.
So you're saying your recent pickup of MK is a more suited opinion then seasoned, experienced players
 

eideeiit

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There's nothing wrong in questioning the judgement of better players as long as you listen to their input and try to see things as they do.
 

Tomaster

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So you're saying your recent pickup of MK is a more suited opinion then seasoned, experienced players
You don't need to play a character for years to have an opinion. I hate that mentality. You learn as you go, and your opinions change as you improve. Even people who are considered seasoned and experienced change their opinions a lot.
 
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Lawn Chair

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Lawnchair quit being an a**hole in the forums
lol.

I absolute disagree that MK doesn’t win vs Ganon hard. Ganon is slow, has a poor recovery, easy to juggle, easy to techchase, laggy. Etc. Overall just a really bad character. MK is a waaay better character.

and regarding newer players forming opinions lets take me for example when I started playing MK.

When I started playing against Mario players as MK I thought that the MU is heavily in Mario’s favor since I thought Mario had a chaingrab on MK, also thought there was no way around projectiles, thought he was impossible to edgeguard. But studying the matchup more by playing high level Mario players. (M2K, CruzyCakes, etc.) I realized somethings I was getting beat by were not even true combos or followups, and allowing punishable actions go unpunished. It terms of Ganon I’ve played with Vex who is very invested in that character in PM and I believe I have a firm understanding of the MU since Vex has never ever beaten me in PM in tourney.

I’m not knocking newer MK players from exploring the character. That’s what I did when I got into him and it was a fun time, but in terms of experience I don’t think a person who openly admits that their new MK says struggles or thinks Ganon is pretty good vs MK should not have any pull in the final decision to play how we think the matchup goes. Unless some top level player gives a strong argument to show there is truth to this statement. I know that sounds like a bandwagon of some sort but if you think about it, top players dictate how the newer players think and act. So taking input from both sides of the spectrum is healthy. Besides that. it does not give me the confidence that this is an accurate portrayal of how the MU looks. So like I said its okay to have opinions but just a friendly reminder that I don’t really have a lot of confidence in a new players opinion in MUs over more seasoned players and I think everyone should be hesitant when someone from the top MK players make a remark. Even though sometimes people make good remarks on some matchups.

We have to remember that these matchups are purely objective and have to be as accurate representation of how this character fairs against others. We have a duty to make sure newer players do not get led away by inaccuracies in theses matchups.

That’s what I think on the matter. Thanks for reading
 

Jechtire

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Been playing metaknight since 3.6 dropped, and after a couple of months playing vs good tristate players like DVD, Envy, and also traveling and playing against people like BaconPancakes, I'd like to report my experience.

Metaknight is da tru yung god this character is insanely good and I honestly think he might have one of the best matchup spreads in the game

Only character that comes to mind when I try to think of meta counters is a character like shiek who can tech chase him to death (but that's just a general weakness of his). Fox almost feels in our favor, falco is tough but manageble, and the rest of the cast besides like shiek feel super even to me.

Also I disagree on marth, either it's even or in our favor.
 
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Boiko

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Been playing metaknight since 3.6 dropped, and after a couple of months playing vs good tristate players like DVD, Envy, and also traveling and playing against people like BaconPancakes, I'd like to report my experience.

Metaknight is da tru yung god this character is insanely good and I honestly think he might have one of the best matchup spreads in the game

Only character that comes to mind when I try to think of meta counters is a character like shiek who can tech chase him to death (but that's just a general weakness of his). Fox almost feels in our favor, falco is tough but manageble, and the rest of the cast besides like shiek feel super even to me.

Also I disagree on marth, either it's even or in our favor.
Ditto MM next time I see you.
 
D

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You don't need to play a character for years to have an opinion. I hate that mentality. You learn as you go, and your opinions change as you improve. Even people who are considered seasoned and experienced change their opinions a lot.

@ Phubs Phubs lets keep it civil in here dude.. No personal attacks
strictly speaking you're correct, but being a top player and having years worth of experience can certainly help your insight. it can also hurt your insight too, depending how you handle observation bias. after playing sheik vs strongbads MK, its readily apparent that MKs dashdance is insane and will probably be stifling to deal with across the MU spread. MKs DD was already quite good before his weight and dtilt buffs, so this really shouldnt surprise anyone. same for marth, as soon as MK doesnt run into pivot grabs it gets way harder for marth.
 

Missile

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I'm sorry. I only recently started playing METAKNIGHT. I've been playing Melee since early 2008 and Project M since v. 2.1 when Ike's dash attack covered all of final destination (lol)

MK isn't that old of a character either, so dismissing my opinion based on the fact that I said that I "recently picked up the character" says something bad about you lol.

I understand that in theory things can be a certain way, and in practice things can go on a whole different tangent. I could maybe suppose you haven't played any Ganondorfs that are at equal or higher skill level as players than you are and that is why your opinion is what it is regarding the matchup. That's OK with me.

I have my opinion and I'm willing to listen to insight from "more experienced" players, since I don't know all the kinks of this character yet, but MK-Ganon as of today is NOT +2 for MK in MY OPINION. I can see +1 happening, and +0 being unlikely.
 

Tomaster

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About the mk-mewtwo matchup, I think it's in mk's favor slightly until you reach like top 50 level, which is where it starts being more even. But in most cases the mk player will have the upper hand.
 
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