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MK Matchup's 3.6

D

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What's the difference between how PM handles tech rolls vs melee's way of handling tech rolls? Are PM character's tech rolls just kind of ****ty?
So, in melee if you're hit by a move and then tech, your momentum is carried into the tech roll. Look at this example here: https://youtu.be/INAphSex3z4?t=13

Roy was sent back by marths fsmash but tech rolled forward, as a result the momentum carried into the tech roll forward and he didn't roll as far. Currently in PM, the tech roll would not have been affected in the same way, It would have instead went its regular tech roll distance. This is very relevant in tech chasing, because if a throw sends you a far distance away and you tech roll away, your momentum in melee would add onto your tech roll. In Project M, it doesn't so its always a fixed distance to easily punish on reaction.
 

Narelex

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So, in melee if you're hit by a move and then tech, your momentum is carried into the tech roll. Look at this example here: https://youtu.be/INAphSex3z4?t=13

Roy was sent back by marths fsmash but tech rolled forward, as a result the momentum carried into the tech roll forward and he didn't roll as far. Currently in PM, the tech roll would not have been affected in the same way, It would have instead went its regular tech roll distance. This is very relevant in tech chasing, because if a throw sends you a far distance away and you tech roll away, your momentum in melee would add onto your tech roll. In Project M, it doesn't so its always a fixed distance to easily punish on reaction.
There are some fringe cases where it works the other way around but yeah its much easier to punish in PM

Especially if you're Squirtle, Lucas and Bowser I would cry if I had to techroll as them ever
 
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TFerg

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So, in melee if you're hit by a move and then tech, your momentum is carried into the tech roll. Look at this example here: https://youtu.be/INAphSex3z4?t=13

Roy was sent back by marths fsmash but tech rolled forward, as a result the momentum carried into the tech roll forward and he didn't roll as far. Currently in PM, the tech roll would not have been affected in the same way, It would have instead went its regular tech roll distance. This is very relevant in tech chasing, because if a throw sends you a far distance away and you tech roll away, your momentum in melee would add onto your tech roll. In Project M, it doesn't so its always a fixed distance to easily punish on reaction.
I did not know this at all, but always noticed it. Thanks for the info.
 

TFerg

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I don't personally feel that mk has any awful mus to be honest. He has an amazing neutral (Like wtf is that dash dance lol), great setups, tech chasing is ridiculous, kills easily, slight disjoints etc. He is however rather simple to edgeguard despite his multiple options, and punishes on him hurt. If I had to guess Yoshi/Samus would be the most difficult mus, but those are not impossible by any means.
 
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Narelex

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I don't personally feel that mk has any awful mus to be honest. He has an amazing neutral (Like wtf is that dash dance lol), great setups, tech chasing is ridiculous, kills easily, slight disjoints etc. He is however rather simple to edgeguard despite his multiple options, and punishes on him hurt. If I had to guess Yoshi/Samus would be the most difficult mus, but those are not impossible by any means.
:yoshi2:Yoshi was by far the hardest last patch but the giant box of nerfs he received have made it far more reasonable, He could basically kill you with one touch due to the way his grab used to work. (plus our buffs obv)

:samus2:Samus is the hardest (that I know of ATM) but its not crazy hard IMO just slightly her favour since she has tools to deal with us but it's not even close to unwinnable.

MK is very potent but he also still has some very obvious and exploitable weaknesses that prevent him from being the monster he was in 3.02 and that's the way I like it.
 
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Strong Badam

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Hmmm, could be. Haven't really fought any MKs that have used his DD to the fullest, and there's lots of room for stuff to be discovered still
None of 'em do and we may never see one that does. I'll see what I can do, though. Gimme a couple months =D
If Roy didn't have all the tools MK struggles against onstage (barring projectile obv).
I feel MK's weakness to projectiles is often overstated. He has the grounded mobility, and jumps, to dodge them or shield -> WD oos against most of them. Yeah he can't clank them, but all the best projectiles are unclankable/have a fire rate such that clanking them is very risky anyway, or are items like Gyro/Turnips/Tink bombs/Bananas. In that context he's probably somewhere in the top 8ish characters at dealing with them.
 
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Narelex

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None of 'em do and we may never see one that does. I'll see what I can do, though. Gimme a couple months =D

I feel MK's weakness to projectiles is often overstated. He has the grounded mobility, and jumps, to dodge them or shield -> WD oos against most of them. Yeah he can't clank them, but all the best projectiles are unclankable/have a fire rate such that clanking them is very risky anyway, or are items like Gyro/Turnips/Tink bombs/Bananas. In that context he's probably somewhere in the top 8ish characters at dealing with them.
Probably I just have personal issues against them since My WD OOS game/Perfect shield is not where I want it yet.
 
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TFerg

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MK doesn't have many problems with projectiles imo because of his speed. Get your wd oos down to an easy reactive fluid motion and you will find it much more manageable. Also with things like Falco lasers you gotta take the Marth solution and take the laser> dash dance grab or mk can also dd ftilt.
 

Narelex

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MK doesn't have many problems with projectiles imo because of his speed. Get your wd oos down to an easy reactive fluid motion and you will find it much more manageable. Also with things like Falco lasers you gotta take the Marth solution and take the laser> dash dance grab or mk can also dd ftilt.
He doesn't have too many problems dealing with projectiles but he is a ground centric character and really potent projectiles (namely Samus missiles/charge shot) Require him to take to the air at times which due to MK's airspeed is more problematic for him. Its not so much that the projectiles are the problem its that they can force him into going where his opponents want.

The majority of the time though his raw speed and dash dance help him deal with most projectiles very well and the reason Samus is so difficult is not really due to the projectiles but rather a combination of her traits

(decided to write a little about Samus since she's one of our few unfavourable MU's)

:samus2:Samus is very heavy, with a potent dtilt and dsmash which means her CC is extremely strong something MK can have some issues with. She's got an extremely good WD for baiting/platform movement. ,Her solid fast Nair means you have to approach from below since her leg sticks out far. She like most of the cast has very potent combo's on MK due to his status as a Semi-fastfaller. She also has some tricky movement with bombs, B reverses and super WD and has a good OOS option in her Up-B.

Not to say we have no chance against her. attempts to CC can be grabbed as usual. If we can manage to get her into the air we can lay quite a beating on her with up air strings. Shuttle loop will kill her early due to her floatyness. Our new Dair is alright at breaking CC and sending her at a bad angle for recovery if we hit her while she's bomb jumping.

I need to test if we can Nair her during her Tether recovery. (like Lucas's)
 
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666blaziken

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So, in melee if you're hit by a move and then tech, your momentum is carried into the tech roll. Look at this example here: https://youtu.be/INAphSex3z4?t=13

Roy was sent back by marths fsmash but tech rolled forward, as a result the momentum carried into the tech roll forward and he didn't roll as far. Currently in PM, the tech roll would not have been affected in the same way, It would have instead went its regular tech roll distance. This is very relevant in tech chasing, because if a throw sends you a far distance away and you tech roll away, your momentum in melee would add onto your tech roll. In Project M, it doesn't so its always a fixed distance to easily punish on reaction.
Yo, thanks for the information! I always thought it felt different than melee's tech rolls. Will this ever be changed or fixed, or will it be on the same train that the 1 frame physics delay, the light shielding, and the melee tethers are on, and impossible to fix? I have friends who say this game is easy (given one of them uses ike) and this could be one of the reasons.
 

Narelex

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It's actually very important, he doesn't really have another viable way to convert from neutral. His grab sucks and rang has high startup/gets CC'd/you can just shield it, his other moves are just basic neutral pokes for the most part. As safe as they are, it's not enough and he doesn't have any way to directly threaten DDing with him.

Anyway, that's not the only reason he loses. Even with a bomb out his neutral vs MK isn't very threatening, DD -> smart shield/wd oos usage shuts him down pretty hard and he can't just camp with a bomb in his hand because it blows up eventually. His projectiles have a ton of commitment on them and do very little vs shield, so you can take up enormous amounts of stage against him and keep threatening him constantly with a risk/reward that's pretty skewed in your favour. Every time TL chucks a rang or pull out a bomb he risks getting punished or pushed to the edge of the stage where MK chokes him out super hard, and when he does get one out safely he don't really get much from it unless MK ****s up and don't stay grounded. He's just very limited against DD + shield abuse in general, and MK's DD game is insane.

I've played both chars at a high level and the MU is just much easier to play with MK. MK's neutral and conversions are much more reliable, the only thing TL has is his punish game is easier to execute and his recovery might be better.



I think it is 6:4 in MK's favour. TL's combos work best on semi-FF'ers like MK and it is not uncommon to death combo him as a result, 3.6's up+b change hasn't really changed that either (although the uthrow change has), but MK punishes him hard too (TL's tech roll sucks and dair bodies tethers) and he wins neutral pretty convincingly imo.
We have a new MU in-depth analysis thread and you would be perfect to write the Toon-link vs MK MU if you have the time/or want to.

Link to new thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/know-my-power-a-meta-knight-match-up-thread.409829/
 
D

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Yo, thanks for the information! I always thought it felt different than melee's tech rolls. Will this ever be changed or fixed, or will it be on the same train that the 1 frame physics delay, the light shielding, and the melee tethers are on, and impossible to fix? I have friends who say this game is easy (given one of them uses ike) and this could be one of the reasons.
As far as I know, its not possible to fix at the moment. We always have breakthroughs and can accomplish new things, so it'll likely be fixed in the future. ASL and ingame stock icons are examples of things that were previously thought to be impossible, among many other things.
 

FlamingForce

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I've heard that light shielding is already kinda fixed, as in they know how to do it but it's just too much trouble for them to go through.

I think it was SB who told me this but I could be completely wrong lol.
 
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Narelex

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MK loses to Fox and Marth, DDD doesn't beat MK
Gonna need a lot more then "He loses to a fox/marth". To convince anyone my friend But I can see it in theory.

:dedede:However D3 is debatable this Patch and its important to note that this is still a really early representation of a list so things will be changing. I was posting earlier and have been discussing with other MK players about the D3 MU this patch. So we'll see how it turns out.
 
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steelguttey

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i still think mk beats marth 55-45 because of his faster run speed and bigger sword

yes mk's sword is larger than marth, its just marth has arms and mk doesnt. so the only things that outrange mk that marth has are dtilt, fsmash and fair which you can dash dance away from.
 

Narelex

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i still think mk beats marth 55-45 because of his faster run speed and bigger sword

yes mk's sword is larger than marth, its just marth has arms and mk doesnt. so the only things that outrange mk that marth has are dtilt, fsmash and fair which you can dash dance away from.
Too early for me to tell. The fact that he can stop our dashdance in with a tilt makes this a graceful dance between the two as they weave in and out between each others ranges.

Also not sure how well Marth's combos link on MK atm.

He also doesn't have a good way to get out of our juggles since all his moves begin above his waist.

Hmm I need to hit the lab.
 
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mimgrim

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i still think mk beats marth 55-45 because of his faster run speed and bigger sword

yes mk's sword is larger than marth, its just marth has arms and mk doesnt. so the only things that outrange mk that marth has are dtilt, fsmash and fair which you can dash dance away from.
In my experience MK's dtilt actually out ranges Marth's dtilt. As in the Marth will try to dtilt me and I'm just out of range of it then I dtilt them with MK'so and it hits them, though I suppose this could be a case of me hitting their arm.
 

Narelex

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In my experience MK's dtilt actually out ranges Marth's dtilt. As in the Marth will try to dtilt me and I'm just out of range of it then I dtilt them with MK'so and it hits them, though I suppose this could be a case of me hitting their arm.
Yeah its likely you poking marth's arm cause of the extended hurtboxes and since our sword can't clank with his.
 

Lawn Chair

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Gonna need a lot more then "He loses to a fox/marth". To convince anyone my friend But I can see it in theory.
MK has bad neutral vs any projectile character, MK having a small shield makes him bad vs shield pressure, MK is light and very easy for Fox to combo

Marth easily outspaces MK with better disjoints and death combos that are very easy to pull off, Marth can play the game at his pace since Marth has better disjoints than MK to shutdown his rush down style.

I don't know why I have to explain this, its pretty obvious I'm sure anyone who has been on the board for awhile knows I'm prob of the best MK players on the board.
 

Narelex

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MK has bad neutral vs any projectile character, MK having a small shield makes him bad vs shield pressure, MK is light and very easy for Fox to combo

Marth easily outspaces MK with better disjoints and death combos that are very easy to pull off, Marth can play the game at his pace since Marth has better disjoints than MK to shutdown his rush down style.

I don't know why I have to explain this, its pretty obvious I'm sure anyone who has been on the board for awhile knows I'm prob of the best MK players on the board.
Saying I'm one of the Best players doesn't make something correct (see M2K on Fox nerfs) Not to dismiss your time and effort though.

However the points you're arguing are valid and I'll ensure I take them into consideration. All I want/need is facts and hard data I could see reasons that the Marth MU be his favour. If you could get some footage of you vs a Marth in 3.6 that would help a ton for this MU. I'm leaving it off the list until we have a definitive answer. Talking to the other guys about this as well.

CC ftilt does beat Fox's nair shine however. (So this MU could change in the future as we play it more)
 
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Lawn Chair

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Saying I'm one of the Best players doesn't make something correct (see M2K on Fox nerfs) Not to dismiss your time and effort though.

However the points you're arguing are valid and I'll ensure I take them into consideration. All I want/need is facts and hard data I could see reasons that the Marth MU be his favour. If you could get some footage of you vs a Marth in 3.6 that would help a ton for this MU. I'm leaving it off the list until we have a definitive answer. Talking to the other guys about this as well.

I agree with you on Fox after playing more and I'll update the post to reflect this. Upair strings are extremely potent on us. CC ftilt does beat his nair shine however.
The Difference between of how credible M2k and I am on PM is pretty big, I don't think anyone on this board would say I led them the wrong way if. I'm pretty sure a lot of people including top personas of PM that I've met would agree I'm pretty credible when it comes on how MK works or his matchups.
 

Narelex

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The Difference between of how credible M2k and I am on PM is pretty big, I don't think anyone on this board would say I led them the wrong way if. I'm pretty sure a lot of people including top personas of PM that I've met would agree I'm pretty credible when it comes on how MK works or his matchups.
I understand completely, But you need to understand where I'm coming from.

You do have the time put into the game, short blunt answers never rest easy with me I want "the works" if someone is explaining why its bad.

I invited you to the Slack so you can give your thoughts on things.

Thanks for your input though.
 
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Boiko

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MK has bad neutral vs any projectile character, MK having a small shield makes him bad vs shield pressure, MK is light and very easy for Fox to combo

Marth easily outspaces MK with better disjoints and death combos that are very easy to pull off, Marth can play the game at his pace since Marth has better disjoints than MK to shutdown his rush down style.

I don't know why I have to explain this, its pretty obvious I'm sure anyone who has been on the board for awhile knows I'm prob of the best MK players on the board.
I know that you're a good player and decently credible when it comes to how Meta Knight operates but just knowing how a character operates doesn't mean you're qualified to make an assessment on a MU that you may have not played at a significant level. I'm not saying that this is the case, but it's just something for everyone reading to keep in mind.

For example, being "light and very easy for Fox to combo" isn't indicative of a bad match up. Meta Knight has the tools to counter Fox's primary approach of nar>shine by using crouch cancel forward tilt, which even at very low percentages leads to a tech chase situation where MK can cover multiple tech options quickly. Fox has a counter to this with drill, which of course, can't be CC'd. But there is counter play, such as shield, or WD back ftilt/dtilt or even run up up smash. Meta Knight's juggles on Fox and his ability to put him off stage and edge guard him are top notch. However, on the opposite side of the coin, if Fox lands a drill, nair, or shine, he can usually convert into a grab or up smash. Putting MK in the air where he has strong aerial follow ups while MK struggles to come down. It's a very even punish game and a very even neutral game. If MK camps at the proper distance, Fox can't even laser. Being light and easy to combo doesn't mean anything. Match ups are determined almost strictly by the neutral game, and MK is one of the few characters who has the tools to counter Fox in the neutral.

As for Marth, there is no such thing as "easily outspacing" a character with a good dash dance. Marth has to rely on his ground game and grabs here which are both outranged by Meta Knight's down tilt so Marth is the one who has to approach into Meta Knight's zone in order to win the neutral. Meta Knight has superior ground speed, superior pokes, and arguably better ground to air launchers, where Marth has a difficult time coming down. Both characters have extremely similar strengths with trade offs in different areas, such as MK having a better run speed, and Marth having a greater grab range. The punish game feels like it is pretty even. And regarding "death combos that are easy to pull off" uh, lol, no. Just SDI and use your recovery mix ups to get back on stage.

And being one of the best MK's on the board isn't saying much, lol.
 
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sneakytako

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whaaaaat, you can't cc nair shine with ftilt. Besides he's just going to cc your ftilt anyway lol. You should cc grab if anything.

EDIT: you probably mean you can cc poorly spaced nairs, but my point still stands that cc grab is a better option.
 
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Boiko

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whaaaaat, you can't cc nair shine with ftilt. Besides he's just going to cc your ftilt anyway lol. You should cc grab if anything.

EDIT: you probably mean you can cc poorly spaced nairs, but my point still stands that cc grab is a better option.
CC grab will not beat the shine. CC ftilt comes out before the shine but after the nair hits. Go test it, it's very easy.

Edit: It's comparable to Falco using CC shine against Fox approaching with nair, only MK's ftilt comes out two(?) frames later than Falco's shine.
 
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sneakytako

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The fact that you say it's easy tells me you don't know what you're talking about.

You have to consider the following things when you consider CC a nair shine.

a.) How early did fox nair? Am I going to get hit by the strong hitbox or weak hitbox?
b.) At what height is fox hitting me with nair? How much time does he need to ff lcancel and shine?
c.) Will I be able to grab armor through shine or nair?
d.) What percent am I sitting at?

All of these things are case by case; you have to know the scenario and get a feel for whether you should cc or not.

Also I generally disagree with using ftilt against fast fallers; it leads to unhappy scenarios where even if you land the first hit ftilt while they are in the air, they ff after the first hit and cc the rest. You can try to mix up not doing 2nd hit ftilt and dtilt or grabbing instead, but it pans out less against fast fallers like fox.
 
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Boiko

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The fact that you say it's easy tells me you don't know what you're talking about.
Easy to test.

You have to consider the following things when you consider CC a nair shine.

a.) How early did fox nair? Am I going to get hit by the strong hitbox or weak hitbox?
That shouldn't matter, because your option would cover both. We're talking about a short hop nair approach here.

b.) At what height is fox hitting me with nair? How much time does he need to ff lcancel and shine?
What does this even mean? When Fox hits you, you react with Ftilt. That's it. If he's coming straight above you for some inexplicable reason, that's the only time this won't work (but what Fox would actually just fall on you with nair?), but chances are he'll be approaching on the same plane.. His running short hop plane or his short hop in place plane, which, CC ftilt covers both. It doesn't matter what point he hits you at because even at the lowest possible point of nair, 3 frame ftilt still beats shine.

c.) Will I be able to grab armor through shine if he hits me with shine?
No. But that has nothing to do with anything.

d.) What percent am I sitting at?
This is very relevant however. Obviously being at too high of a percent means your CC won't work anymore, or that you'll slide too far to follow up. At that point you need to play the ground game and threaten with your pokes, etc.

Also I generally disagree with using ftilt against fast fallers; it leads to unhappy scenarios where even if you land the first hit ftilt when they are in the air they ff after the first hit and cc the rest. You can try to mix up not doing 2nd hit ftilt and dtilt or grabbing instead, but it pans out less against fast fallers like fox.
If by FF you mean SDI down into shield, then yes, that CAN work, but it probably won't. Do you want me to record a video for you?
 

sneakytako

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Easy to test.
no it isn't easy to test, there's a ton a variables that need to be considered.

That shouldn't matter, because your option would cover both. We're talking about a short hop nair approach here.
Yes it does matter. Weak hit nair is much easier to cc that strong hit nair; both in a skill sense and a feasibility sense. Fox nair has weaker kb in the latter part of its duration, which makes cc a better option for when this happens.



What does this even mean? When Fox hits you, you react with Ftilt. That's it. If he's coming straight above you for some inexplicable reason, that's the only time this won't work (but what Fox would actually just fall on you with nair?), but chances are he'll be approaching on the same plane.. His running short hop plane or his short hop in place plane, which, CC ftilt covers both. It doesn't matter what point he hits you at because even at the lowest possible point of nair, 3 frame ftilt still beats shine.
The height of where nair hits you makes all the difference in how fast shine comes out relative to your reaction.

Let me give you a similar example.

When you nair shine ON SHIELD, making sure the nair hits the lower half of their shield is important. Why? Because the you have to consider how much shield stun nair does VS how many frames it takes for Fox to land, Lcancel, and do the next action (in this case is shine). You cannot simply ignore the amount of time it takes for Fox to land; this is important and can be the difference between getting shield grabbed vs being completely safe on shield.

Thus in the scenario of cc nair shine, how low the nair hits you can depend on the angle/distace that fox is jumping from, and how late the nair is pressed/what height was nair started.

Smash practice with zhu and cactus explained it pretty well, I'm going to try and find a link.

MK is a pretty short character, so you might not think this matters but it's not something you should overlook.

I come with the experience of CC grabbing nair shine with marth (which is way easier cause his grab range is huge), but I know CC grab works with mk... sometimes. Now you've got to consider how you can prevent sliding, how much distance you need to cover with dash grab, how much earlier boost grabbing will help, etc. It's really quite complicated, and I'm not convinced ftilt is that much simpler.

This is very relevant however. Obviously being at too high of a percent means your CC won't work anymore, or that you'll slide too far to follow up. At that point you need to play the ground game and threaten with your pokes, etc.
This is a 'duh' part of the cc.

My other point still stands that ftilt is a poor CC option based on the fact that fox can simply cc you back. (or ff then cc if you hit him in the air)

Edit: Making a vid doesn't really help, because unless you're running a setup similar to Kadano's stuff you're not going to convince me the fox isn't being frame perfect.
 
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Boiko

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Yes it does matter. Weak hit nair is much easier to cc that strong hit nair; both in a skill sense and a feasibility sense. Fox nair has weaker kb in the latter part of its duration, which makes cc a better option for when this happens.


The height of where nair hits you makes all the difference in how fast shine comes out relative to your reaction.

Let me give you a similar example.

When you nair shine ON SHIELD, making sure the nair hits the lower half of their shield is important. Why? Because the you have to consider how much shield stun nair does VS how many frames it takes for Fox to land, Lcancel, and do the next action (in this case is shine). You cannot simply ignore the amount of time it takes for Fox to land; this is important and can be the difference between getting shield grabbed vs being completely safe on shield.

MK is a pretty short character, so you might not think this matters but it's not something you should overlook.
You're missing the point that low nair, high nair, soft hit, hard hit, or any combination of them, still require more frames to shine that what's required in a CC ftilt. No matter how high or low or early or late, CC ftilt comes out before the shine. Don't forget that landing advantages generally assume that you hit at the latest point possible, which would be the most advantageous. Even at that point, it still loses to CC f tilt. I don't know how I can make this more clear.

Once again, it's easy to test. Just test the most optimal situation: strong hit nair on the latest possible frame into shine on the earliest possible frame. You have frame advance.

We're on the same page regarding damage, of course.

My other point still stands that ftilt is a poor CC option based on the fact that fox can simply cc you back. (or ff then cc if you hit him in the air)
IIRC each ftilt comes out five frames from the previous hitbox termination. Don't forget that Fox's empty landing is four frames, so if he's somehow out of hitstun from one hit, he needs to hit the ground in less than one frames before he can CC... And even if he reaches the ground and absorbs hitstun from the second attack to CC on the earliest possible frame the third hit has a very high BKB and KBG (50 and 113) relative to its speed. It breaks CC very early. This is an extremely precise input from Fox and isn't as simple as just hold down and shine.
 

sneakytako

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IIRC each ftilt comes out five frames from the previous hitbox termination. Don't forget that Fox's empty landing is four frames, so if he's somehow out of hitstun from one hit, he needs to hit the ground in less than one frames before he can CC... And even if he reaches the ground and absorbs hitstun from the second attack to CC on the earliest possible frame the third hit has a very high BKB and KBG (50 and 113) relative to its speed. It breaks CC very early. This is an extremely precise input from Fox and isn't as simple as just hold down and shine.
You also need to account for SDI; fox can get closer to the ground with each hit of ftilt, usually he's touching the ground by the 1st or 2nd ftilt if the fox has good SDI.

Idk, I don't see 3rd hit ftilt beat fox cc that early. Maybe 50-60ish? (The other day I cc grabbed a wario grounded side-b at 41% after the hit laaawwwwl) Even then I'm thinking he didn't CC well enough. Not that favorable for mk imo.
 
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Narelex

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You're missing the point that low nair, high nair, soft hit, hard hit, or any combination of them, still require more frames to shine that what's required in a CC ftilt. No matter how high or low or early or late, CC ftilt comes out before the shine. Don't forget that landing advantages generally assume that you hit at the latest point possible, which would be the most advantageous. Even at that point, it still loses to CC f tilt. I don't know how I can make this more clear.

Once again, it's easy to test. Just test the most optimal situation: strong hit nair on the latest possible frame into shine on the earliest possible frame. You have frame advance.

We're on the same page regarding damage, of course.



IIRC each ftilt comes out five frames from the previous hitbox termination. Don't forget that Fox's empty landing is four frames, so if he's somehow out of hitstun from one hit, he needs to hit the ground in less than one frames before he can CC... And even if he reaches the ground and absorbs hitstun from the second attack to CC on the earliest possible frame the third hit has a very high BKB and KBG (50 and 113) relative to its speed. It breaks CC very early. This is an extremely precise input from Fox and isn't as simple as just hold down and shine.
If I had any PM Fox's of note in my city I would put this debate to rest. I'll be talking to the other MK's on Slack so I'll let you know our consensus.
 
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Boiko

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You also need to account for SDI; fox can get closer to the ground with each hit of ftilt, usually he's touching the ground by the 1st or 2nd ftilt if the fox has good SDI.

Idk, I don't see 3rd hit ftilt beat fox cc that early. Maybe 50-60ish? Even then I'm thinking he didn't CC well enough. Not that favorable for mk imo.
Right, but if he doesn't get close enough to the ground, which is high probability, he's launched. I can calculate when it will break CC when I get home. But like I said it's pretty difficult for him to get into the position to CC in the first place.

If I had any PM Fox's of note in my city I would put this debate to rest. I'll be talking to the other MK's on Slack so I'll let you know our consensus.
It's a good thing that I do and I literally tested it quite a few times before even posting about it. :drshrug:
 

sneakytako

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Then let me ask you this; how did you test this?

What percent is mk not able to cc fox strong nair? Weak Nair?

What actions did you have fox do after nair (in terms of SDI and CC inputs)?

Have you tested hitting mk with the latest possible nair?

Have you done any testing on slants or platforms?
 

Ya Boy GP

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Then let me ask you this; how did you test this?
We tested it by going into a match and having me repeatedly nair him while he was trying to CC ftilt.
What percent is mk not able to cc fox strong nair? Weak Nair?
We didn't test specific percents, so I can't really answer this.
What actions did you have fox do after nair (in terms of SDI and CC inputs)?
I attempted things such as shining out of it, running out of it, and CCing it, but none of them were effective counters to it.
Have you tested hitting mk with the latest possible nair?
Yes, we tested early nairs and late nairs. And that includes the last possible frame for nair to come out.
Have you done any testing on slants or platforms?
Platforms would have the same result, we didn't test it on slants.
 

Boiko

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And then we took it a step farther and actually played the game, both of us applying the knowledge that we have, and lo and behold, it's a very viable tactic.
 

sneakytako

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I can tell you I know for a fact you fox can cc ftilt, even if you're hit in the air. You should probably try practicing that.

What percent was fox when he was trying to cc? When does mk ftilt break cc?


We didn't test specific percents, so I can't really answer this.

.
You should. It's useful information.
 
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Boiko

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I can tell you I know for a fact you fox can cc ftilt, even if you're hit in the air. You should probably try practicing that.

What percent was fox when he was trying to cc? When does mk ftilt break cc?
You're saying, "I can tell you for a fact" we're saying "We tested it." It's obvious which one of these holds more weight.

Something that you need to think about is that frame data isn't everything. Fox isn't going to perfectly nair shine every time, and Meta Knight isn't going to respond to nair with Ftilt every time either. So the best way to test a techniques viability is to take two people who have experimented with it, and attempt to apply it in real games. Which is exactly what we did, and more often than not, it worked just fine and set up for additional follow ups. I also used it against other Fox players, and believe it or not, it worked. I don't know what else you want me to tell you.

In game application is typically a good measure for determining if something is useful or not.

cc ftilt, even if you're hit in the air.
....
 
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