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MK Matchup's 3.6

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
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:bowser2: - Only super good one I've fought is Odds and it seemed heavily in Bowser's favor if he uses armor properly. Then again, Odds was also the superior player. 60/40 Bowser
It was slightly Bowser's favor in 3.5, yes. It's much worse for Bowser in this patch for a long list of reasons - but the tl;dr is that armor (Bowser's main asset against MK) is way less strong, dash attack is way less strong, and MK is much stronger now. Probably 60:40 or more in MK's favor in 3.6b.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
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My opinion on his MU spreads:

40/60
:samus2::roypm::sheik:
45/55
:dedede::diddy::falco::toonlink::zerosuitsamus:
50/50
:fox::lucario::marth::mewtwopm::mario2::peach::yoshi2::wolf::lucas::ivysaur::ness2:
55/45
:ike::kirby2::link2::luigi2::sonic::warioc::snake::falcon::popo::pikachu2::pit::rob::olimar::squirtle::gw:
60/40
:bowser2::dk2::jigglypuff::ganondorf::charizard::zelda:


Let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll elaborate the best that I can. Here are a few things to consider:

A 60:40 match up means that in a Bo5 set, the score would be 3-2. It's not overwhelming, but it is difficult.

Meta Knight's game plan is all about utilizing his amazing ground game and his ground to air game and converting from his grabs and tech chases. Then optimizing punishes and converting into an edge guard. He feels to me like a hybrid of Marth and Sheik, but more Marth, than Sheik.

When playing as Meta Knight, you generally want to stay grounded until you have an opportunity to go into the air. DD back and forth and close space, run in when you have an opportunity and poke with a dtilt. See how your opponent reacts to this and store it as data for your next exchange. Do it again, if they're shielding each time, consider approaching with a boost grab, reading the shield option. Down throw tech chases are great and simple. A missed tech can be covered with a running up smash to put them into the air, where Meta Knight's juggle game comes into play. You can also cover a missed tech with a forward tilt. Up throw and forward throw are great for putting your opponent on a platform where you can harass from underneath, especially if you know they can't shield drop. Up tilts shield stab a lot of characters even with almost full shields.

CC forward tilt is one of the best anti pressure tools in the game and it's the primary reason that Fox goes even with Meta Knight. If Fox approaches with a nair shine, you can CC forward tilt before the shine comes out. You need to DD around drill, however, but what character doesn't? Anyway, pivot forward is good for keeping pressure off of you from approach opponents, especially since the first two hits of tilt cover so much space.

Here is the general thought process behind my placing of most the cast:

Characters that struggle against Meta Knight:

Characters the rely on their ground game: Simply put, Meta Knight has one of the best ground games in the entire cast. He has some of the fastest, most rewarding pokes, amazing dash dance and dash speed, and a fantastic grab game. It's extremely hard to challenge him on the flat ground. Meta Knight is fast enough to punish most characters for even jumping, making it important for them to stay on the ground and deal with his pokes when he is close. There are very few characters who can challenge this. Charizard has a similar archetype, when he has great mobility and pokes, however, his pokes have too much cool down to deal with Meta Knight. Picture you're Charizard, and you get pinned in the corner, Meta Knight is dash dancing around you, what do you do? Maybe jab to try to get pressure off, but if you whiff, Meta Knight will DD right back around and boost grab, dtilt, upsmash, you for even trying. There are some characters that can challenge him on the ground. Specifically Marth and Roy. Roy's dtilt, CC, and dash dance are all amazing. He's good at closing the gap, eating a dtilt of yours and responding with his own dtilt. Also, he has an amazing grab range which can make DDing around him risky. His ground game is very difficult against Meta Knight. If you do get in, you can punish him decently hard, but getting in is very challenging. Marth's dtilt operates differently than Roy's. It hits similarly to Meta Knight's at the tip. It doesn't lead to as many conversions, but it's great for controlling space, especially in conjunction with his grab. Meta Knight and Marth operate almost identically on the ground so it's hard to say that one does it better than the other.

Low Mobility, Defensive Characters: Zelda and Link, for example. Meta Knight's speed in nothing short of amazing. Not only that, but his ability to quickly attack out of a dash makes camping him extremely difficult. Zelda can't safely throw out a Din's Fire because Meta Knight will close the grab in no time and put her up in the air. The same applies to Link. Meta Knight can race almost completely across GHZ by the time Link throws a boomerang. Link and Zelda don't have the greatest mobility to get away from Meta Knight once he puts the pressure on. By throwing a projectile, you're sacrificing your space against him. If you don't have corner escape options like Toon Link does, you're going to eat some damage trying to regain stage control. Snake is the same way. Yes, his grenade is a lot faster, and if he chooses to hold it, he can apply good anti pressure while shielding. But the simple fact is that by sitting in your shield waiting on the grenade to detonate, you're giving Meta Knight ample time to maneuver over to you and start threatening with presence. So you may be asking why Samus is different and I'll get into that in a bit.
Characters with limited disjoint: Characters like Kirby and Falcon have no real way to get into Meta Knight without putting their entire hitbox out there. Because Meta Knight has fast anti pressure and coverage options, more often than not, you'll either trade with these characters or just beat their approaches if spaced properly. It's pretty difficult to circumvent Meta Knight's defenses, so it helps immensely when you have a projectile or some form of disjoint to challenge him with.

Characters that Meta Knight struggles against

Characters than can keep him pinned and restrict his movement or force him into the air: This is basically every losing match up he has. Let's look at Falco for example. Falco's stage control with lasers is arduous to deal with. It forces Meta Knight to either shield or jump, often, neither of which he wants to be doing. Your dash dancing becomes limited and your ground control options are limited. You're forced to close the gap on him and deal with him head on. This isn't always the way that you want to do things. Going into the air is almost always a bad option considering Meta Knight's mediocre aerial mobility. What makes these match ups even harder is when a character has good options out of CC, and even harder if they have good options out of shield. This pretty much defines Samus. She controls space with her missiles. When you close the gap, her tilts are just as threatening as yours, she can upb OoS, and she can CC all of your tilts and respond with strong CC options such as down smash. It comes down to trying to grab her, which, if you do, you don't get much off of since she's not forced to tech. Overall, that's just a very difficult MU.

What to Never do as Meta Knight
Approach a grounded opponent with aerials. Meta Knight does not have strong aerial approach options. He has slow aerial mobility so he won't be able to approach as quickly in the air as he will in the ground. His aerials should be reserved specifically for juggling, edge guarding and reading jump options. They should NOT BE USED TO APPROACH. I can't stress this enough. If your opponent is in the air, it's almost always more beneficial to get underneath them and harass from below with up tilts and up airs than it would be to try and nair them off stage. This doesn't mean you should never use aerials. They're all amazing and have great uses. But when it comes down to neutral exchanges, grounded Meta Knight>aerial Meta Knight.

I didn't proofread this, and I wrote it kind of quickly, so sorry if it's tough to read. Maybe I'll edit it later. If you have any questions let me know.
 
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Dandizzle

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I'm pretty down with this, but Yoshi, even as not the spookiest character has historically bodied meta knight and probably still would be a 55-45, not that it matters to me. There's little changes like Diddy being even and maybe moving around 2 55-45s up or down but I ain't gonna write a memoir on my phone. Probably being a bit harsh on Falco too. Regardless **** Dedede lmaoooooooo
 
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Boiko

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I'm pretty down with this, but Yoshi, even as not the spooked character has historically bodied meta knight and probably still would be a 55-45, not that it matters to me. There's little changes like Diddy being even and maybe moving around 2 55-45s up or down but I ain't gonna write a memoir on my phone. Probably being a bit harsh on Falco too. Regardless **** Dedede lmaoooooooo
I'll play it out with Zubat a bunch next time I see him to see how I feel. I can definitely see agreeing with you though. I can picture it being tough.
 

Dandizzle

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It was commonly held opinion that it was his worst match up last patch, numbers like 70-30 being thrown around. Not saying I agree with that but it's still somewhat relevant. EDIT: Wait a sec m8 I really like playing the Sheik match up, I already know what you gonna say but as the guy that coined the term Honor, Strength, Sheik to make fun of every other guy trying to hustle some fight money by playing Sheik at HSS I don't think I'm biased in the other direction.
 
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Boiko

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Weird. I'm trying to understand how. What can Yoshi really do against MK on the ground?
 

Mumbo

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Well I've stumbled upon this thread and found questions relevant to me so I hope I can provide some insight. In 3.5, Yoshi destroyed Meta Knight. When I heard several people complain about Yoshi being Meta Knights worst matchup, I wasn't surprised at all. Now, Meta Knight wins the matchup, though I'm not sure how badly. Here are several ways in which the matchup improved for Meta Knight:

  • Yoshi can no longer grab airborne characters (except for a 2 frame grabbox on Yoshi's mouth at the start of the grab, but that's irrelevant in the case of Meta Knight) which means Yoshi's lost his total option coverage on downthrow. Before, downthrow meant a uair on inward DI, Fair or Nair on no DI, and regrab on outward DI, however, now DIing out of downthrow is relatively safe for Meta Knight because Yoshi can not possibly hit the regrab. This also makes getting grabs on MK in neutral or from frame traps much more difficult, especially since MK likes to SHFFL a lot and because he has a quick jumpsquat. Grabbing MK was really (and still is) core in the matchup.
  • Yoshi's Pivot grab got IASA increased from 35 to 40, which effectively adds 5 frames of endlag to pivot grab, making getting grabs on MK harder.
  • MK's weight buff, as well as nerfs to Yoshi's two most reliable upward kill moves (Uair knockback was nerfed slightly, Down B was gutted) make MK much harder to kill off the top. I'm not sure about other Yoshis, but when I played the matchup I find myself killing MK off the top more than anything.
  • Eggroll was nerfed MAJORLY in one way that wasn't even mentioned in the patch notes: Aerial Eggroll's horizontal momentum was significantly reduced, even on the first airborne use. This has several consequences, especially in the case of Meta Knight.
    • Yoshi has to be much more protective of his jump while on stage. MK often times had trouble dealing with armor, so DJC was a really strong option in 3.5. Even if I did get caught without a jump offstage, Eggroll could take me back to the stage at those low-mid%s that would have been considered "unfortunate gimps". In 3.6, eggroll just sucks as a recovery move.
    • Yoshi can get edgegaurded more easily by Meta Knight. In 3.5 Meta Knights only really options to edgegaurd Yoshi were to footstool (which is gone, a buff for Yoshi in the matchup) or to chase the double jump and break armor. In 3.5, armor was broken by MK's Nair and Bair at 65% and 54%, respectively. With Yoshi's weight nerf, those numbers are probably more like 63% and 53% in 3.6, which is not a huge difference really. From what I understand, MK's new dair also breaks armor pretty early. Anyways, now in 3.6, MK has the option to wait for the eggroll recovery to punish, as well as the armor breaking options.
    • Juggling Yoshi and carrying him to the top is much more effective, even if you don't secure the kill, with Eggroll horizontal momentum nerfed, its a lot easier to chase Yoshi's landing, whereas before you may have needed to go for a read.
  • Yoshi's dair got changed in a really weird way. Damage was reduced from 49 to 38 which is whatever. It used to be an insane way to punish Meta Knight's super slow tech rolls, especially on platforms. The other change is that it no longer has a landing hitbox, which means Yoshi's dair is punishable on hit at low %s (til around 30-40), but it gets guaranteed downsmashes and such at higher %s (around 80). I don't really know how I feel about this change yet.

All in all, as much as the matchup has gotten better for MK, it was still an absolutely terrible matchup for him in 3.5, and the net result is that its now a slightly positive matchup for MK, probably around 55/45.
 

Dandizzle

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Well I think his pivot grab was pretty useful before the nerf, grab range still pretty good. Gameplan probably consisted of those low to the ground djc aerials but they are a bit riskier now. His cc game obviously still works, dtilt setting up distanced tech chase with the set knockback and downsmash just being a strong move. I haven't played the matchup this patch and in a serious setting I'd probably play another character due to my own experience and personal preference, but it would take a lot for a pretty much counter to MK to shift to the other end of the spectrum in one patch. If you really wanted to go 20XX Yoshi could parry all the grabs that would consistently beat his CC. Character probably could be played better in general, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over whatever it's ranked, just whoever does it should actual play against Yoshi and a tournament or the like and try to be unbaised. Maybe I'll do it cuz I always was good at beating Yoshi players anyway.
 

Mumbo

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Well I think his pivot grab was pretty useful before the nerf, grab range still pretty good. Gameplan probably consisted of those low to the ground djc aerials but they are a bit riskier now. His cc game obviously still works, dtilt setting up distanced tech chase with the set knockback and downsmash just being a strong move. I haven't played the matchup this patch and in a serious setting I'd probably play another character due to my own experience and personal preference, but it would take a lot for a pretty much counter to MK to shift to the other end of the spectrum in one patch. If you really wanted to go 20XX Yoshi could parry all the grabs that would consistently beat his CC. Character probably could be played better in general, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over whatever it's ranked, just whoever does it should actual play against Yoshi and a tournament or the like and try to be unbaised. Maybe I'll do it cuz I always was good at beating Yoshi players anyway.
Oh I forgot to mention, Rip in peace grab parry. CC is still really strong, though it did get nerfed a little bit with the weight nerf.
 

Dandizzle

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If my formatting, grammar or info isn't that great I'm on my phone with an iffy 4g connection for probably the rest of the day, not gonna write novels here, just happy I'm playing a character with an active mu thread.

@ Boiko Boiko glad you put Ivy as even, because when me and the op look at the ivy MU on paper seems like we'd win 55-45 but I played Quaff on netplay late last night and I felt more in the game then I have in awhile, beat like 10 maybe 15 his characters he played including all of fire emblem and the space animals, not like he'd play em in tourney but he's a sound player overall. His ivy did beat my MK every time irrc. Not really surprising he'd beat my MK, but I think I'd fare a bit better considering various different reasons if MK won it. My R.O.B still gets that EZ MONEY from his Ivy but I haven't touched that character expect maybe that 1 HSS and testing some changes (still playing him just needed a fresh head). Even my ****ty suit samus almost beat em. I should have the recordings in high quality on my PC and I'll probably share some of em. Not like I'm going to base thr MU just off that, but I've played other good Ivysaurs and talked to other meta knight players and none of em are giddy to play the MU. I mean I even like Ivysaur I just think even though edgeguarding is free as usual against Ivy she might have a slight edge in the neutral and they both punish the **** out of one another. Any thoughts going into why you put it as even because I think some may disagree, but I think it's right currently.

But to anyone else, how do you feels about MK vs. Ivy?
 
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Narelex

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Weird. I'm trying to understand how. What can Yoshi really do against MK on the ground?
My opinion on his MU spreads:

60/40
:samus2::roypm::sheik:
55/45
:dedede::diddy::falco::toonlink::zerosuitsamus:
50/50
:fox::lucario::marth::mewtwopm::mario2::peach::yoshi2::wolf::lucas::ivysaur::ness2:
55/45
:ike::kirby2::link2::luigi2::sonic::warioc::snake::falcon::popo::pikachu2::pit::rob::olimar::squirtle::gw:
60/40
:bowser2::dk2::jigglypuff::ganondorf::charizard::zelda:


Let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll elaborate the best that I can. Here are a few things to consider:

A 60:40 match up means that in a Bo5 set, the score would be 3-2. It's not overwhelming, but it is difficult.

Meta Knight's game plan is all about utilizing his amazing ground game and his ground to air game and converting from his grabs and tech chases. Then optimizing punishes and converting into an edge guard. He feels to me like a hybrid of Marth and Sheik, but more Marth, than Sheik.

When playing as Meta Knight, you generally want to stay grounded until you have an opportunity to go into the air. DD back and forth and close space, run in when you have an opportunity and poke with a dtilt. See how your opponent reacts to this and store it as data for your next exchange. Do it again, if they're shielding each time, consider approaching with a boost grab, reading the shield option. Down throw tech chases are great and simple. A missed tech can be covered with a running up smash to put them into the air, where Meta Knight's juggle game comes into play. You can also cover a missed tech with a forward tilt. Up throw and forward throw are great for putting your opponent on a platform where you can harass from underneath, especially if you know they can't shield drop. Up tilts shield stab a lot of characters even with almost full shields.

CC forward tilt is one of the best anti pressure tools in the game and it's the primary reason that Fox goes even with Meta Knight. If Fox approaches with a nair shine, you can CC forward tilt before the shine comes out. You need to DD around drill, however, but what character doesn't? Anyway, pivot forward is good for keeping pressure off of you from approach opponents, especially since the first two hits of tilt cover so much space.

Here is the general thought process behind my placing of most the cast:

Characters that struggle against Meta Knight:

Characters the rely on their ground game: Simply put, Meta Knight has one of the best ground games in the entire cast. He has some of the fastest, most rewarding pokes, amazing dash dance and dash speed, and a fantastic grab game. It's extremely hard to challenge him on the flat ground. Meta Knight is fast enough to punish most characters for even jumping, making it important for them to stay on the ground and deal with his pokes when he is close. There are very few characters who can challenge this. Charizard has a similar archetype, when he has great mobility and pokes, however, his pokes have too much cool down to deal with Meta Knight. Picture you're Charizard, and you get pinned in the corner, Meta Knight is dash dancing around you, what do you do? Maybe jab to try to get pressure off, but if you whiff, Meta Knight will DD right back around and boost grab, dtilt, upsmash, you for even trying. There are some characters that can challenge him on the ground. Specifically Marth and Roy. Roy's dtilt, CC, and dash dance are all amazing. He's good at closing the gap, eating a dtilt of yours and responding with his own dtilt. Also, he has an amazing grab range which can make DDing around him risky. His ground game is very difficult against Meta Knight. If you do get in, you can punish him decently hard, but getting in is very challenging. Marth's dtilt operates differently than Roy's. It hits similarly to Meta Knight's at the tip. It doesn't lead to as many conversions, but it's great for controlling space, especially in conjunction with his grab. Meta Knight and Marth operate almost identically on the ground so it's hard to say that one does it better than the other.

Low Mobility, Defensive Characters: Zelda and Link, for example. Meta Knight's speed in nothing short of amazing. Not only that, but his ability to quickly attack out of a dash makes camping him extremely difficult. Zelda can't safely throw out a Din's Fire because Meta Knight will close the grab in no time and put her up in the air. The same applies to Link. Meta Knight can race almost completely across GHZ by the time Link throws a boomerang. Link and Zelda don't have the greatest mobility to get away from Meta Knight once he puts the pressure on. By throwing a projectile, you're sacrificing your space against him. If you don't have corner escape options like Toon Link does, you're going to eat some damage trying to regain stage control. Snake is the same way. Yes, his grenade is a lot faster, and if he chooses to hold it, he can apply good anti pressure while shielding. But the simple fact is that by sitting in your shield waiting on the grenade to detonate, you're giving Meta Knight ample time to maneuver over to you and start threatening with presence. So you may be asking why Samus is different and I'll get into that in a bit.
Characters with limited disjoint: Characters like Kirby and Falcon have no real way to get into Meta Knight without putting their entire hitbox out there. Because Meta Knight has fast anti pressure and coverage options, more often than not, you'll either trade with these characters or just beat their approaches if spaced properly. It's pretty difficult to circumvent Meta Knight's defenses, so it helps immensely when you have a projectile or some form of disjoint to challenge him with.

Characters that Meta Knight struggles against

Characters than can keep him pinned and restrict his movement or force him into the air: This is basically every losing match up he has. Let's look at Falco for example. Falco's stage control with lasers is arduous to deal with. It forces Meta Knight to either shield or jump, often, neither of which he wants to be doing. Your dash dancing becomes limited and your ground control options are limited. You're forced to close the gap on him and deal with him head on. This isn't always the way that you want to do things. Going into the air is almost always a bad option considering Meta Knight's mediocre aerial mobility. What makes these match ups even harder is when a character has good options out of CC, and even harder if they have good options out of shield. This pretty much defines Samus. She controls space with her missiles. When you close the gap, her tilts are just as threatening as yours, she can upb OoS, and she can CC all of your tilts and respond with strong CC options such as down smash. It comes down to trying to grab her, which, if you do, you don't get much off of since she's not forced to tech. Overall, that's just a very difficult MU.

What to Never do as Meta Knight
Approach a grounded opponent with aerials. Meta Knight does not have strong aerial approach options. He has slow aerial mobility so he won't be able to approach as quickly in the air as he will in the ground. His aerials should be reserved specifically for juggling, edge guarding and reading jump options. They should NOT BE USED TO APPROACH. I can't stress this enough. If your opponent is in the air, it's almost always more beneficial to get underneath them and harass from below with up tilts and up airs than it would be to try and nair them off stage. This doesn't mean you should never use aerials. They're all amazing and have great uses. But when it comes down to neutral exchanges, grounded Meta Knight>aerial Meta Knight.

I didn't proofread this, and I wrote it kind of quickly, so sorry if it's tough to read. Maybe I'll edit it later. If you have any questions let me know.


This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for thanks a ton.



:fox: Its not crazy polarized one way or the other. Slight Fox edge though.

:falco:Falco is a case of a bad MU on paper when you look at his toolset but its actually even for similar reasons Falcon is easy. Despite how annoying lasers can be. Laser spam is basically his only option since we stuff his approaches and are faster then him. Not to mention how notoriously awful Falco's survivability is and how easy of a time we get him offstage and then cover all his recovery options with a Nair. He can combo hard against us if he can make an opening but punish game is a bad way to talk about a MU

:ness2:I'll take your Ness placement into account.

:zerosuitsamus: Talked to Jason Waterfalls about this MU and we both agree its close to even.

:charizard: The Charizard needs to be really good and I feel most people are bad with the character. If he couldn't tech chase us for what feels like decades I'd probably make it more our favour.

Odds played some Charizard at a Saskatoon tourney and I feel his is quite strong.

:ganondorf:If we didn't have such a god awful tech roll and he didn't have such meaty hitboxes I'd put this at +3 for us.If our sideb gets stuck on the edge (like it can, if you do it too close), he can Dair us for free. He can jab to cover our tech in place after his side b and still make it in time to punish if we roll since our tech roll is bad. Dthrow can do some damage to us due to our fallingspeed.

Most Ganons are not great IMO and don't know anything about the MK MU.

:diddy:Diddy is evenish IMO barring our bad glidetoss. His recovery is mediocre vs us. However you do have to know how to deal with items though.

:sheik: Is the MU you place that I disagree with the most. It was Sheik's favour last patch. We only got better and she lost her throw mixup which was one of her most potent tools against us. We have a very easy time edgeguarding her due to the way her recovery works, you grab the ledge then quickly get up after her teleport, If she went for the ledge she dies, If she lands on stage you punish her hard. She still gimps us but she does that to everyone. Not to mention our Neutral game is awesome in general this patch.

:roypm:I asked Sethlon about this MU and he said he'd give his opinion soon. (He's working on his next episode of S3 atm i believe) My personal opinion is 55/45 Roy's favour due to our buffs and Roy's recovery nerfs. (felt 60/40 last patch) Could be wrong. I really need to find a good Roy to practice on.

:toonlink:Poor Tink has issues dealing with MK.
 
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Boiko

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Just a quick PSA, Roy's recovery is more difficult to edge guard now than it was before, specifically for MK.
 

Narelex

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Just a quick PSA, Roy's recovery is more difficult to edge guard now than it was before, specifically for MK.
TBF he's never been too hard to gimp for us as long as you didn't challenge the Up-B so that's not too big of a loss Roy dies so easily offstage. Since with multi-jumps we just fly next to him when he's using side b to recover then kill him.

Roy is a character MU that I feel is very volatile due to the way our kits clash so the MU is interesting.

Hopefully Sethlon will be able to give his opinion on it soon.
 
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Narelex

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Gonna start posting some videos of some MK tournament play. Looks like Strong Bad has picked up MK as a secondary as well. (Most of these are Infinity)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeYunSk15wU Infinity(MK) vs KA (Fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40mV7iaDi6w Infinity(MK) vs Captain Birdman (D3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr6bCaEYxo Infinity(MK vs Sethlon (Roy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeNFallM8gE Infinity(MK) vs Zeus (Ganondorf/Sonic)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAGJML1DZQw Strongbad (MK/Wario) vs Sethlon (Roy)

(Keep in mind Strongbads MK is new)

If you find any good MK 3.6 Tourney footage post it here as well.
 
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Strong Badam

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haven't decided on a conclusive list yet but definitely toon link and spacies (all 3). there are a few other matchups I'm sure MK does better in than Wario does, but those MUs are close enough to even with Wario that I don't plan on switching regardless.

I like MK a lot, I liked 3.5 MK but didn't have much reason to use him over my other characters. now I do so I'm putting some serious time into him
 

Jolteon

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Toon Link loses to MK for sure btw, he's very reliant on using bombs for hit-confirms and as a result high mobility DD characters who don't give him much room to pull out bombs safely do make him struggle a lot, particularly because said DD gives them all the tools they need to avoid bomb hitconfirms in the first place (just dash away from them or dash -> shield -> wd oos). I think he won even in 3.5.
 

Narelex

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Toon Link loses to MK for sure btw, he's very reliant on using bombs for hit-confirms and as a result high mobility DD characters who don't give him much room to pull out bombs safely do make him struggle a lot, particularly because said DD gives them all the tools they need to avoid bomb hitconfirms in the first place (just dash away from them or dash -> shield -> wd oos). I think he won even in 3.5.
Good to hear I haven't fought toonlink enough this patch yet.
Do you think its 55/45 MK's Favour or worse for tink this patch?
 
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Boiko

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I'm not convinced that just because Tink has a hard time pulling bombs, he loses the MU. He's good enough at creating space to get a bomb if he needs it. Plus he has a plethora of other tools and still has reasonable enough kill conversions out of the neutral. I should be seeing DVD soon, we'll play it out a bunch and I'll post more about it. Jolteon, if you play any good MKs lemme know what your experiences are/ what you find works or doesn't work.

Regardless of anything, I don't see it exceeding 55:45 in either direction.
 

G13_Flux

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@ Boiko Boiko why do you feel Roy's recovery is harder to guard? I know mks dair got a bit slower, but he's still got plenty of tools to edge guard Roy that are quick enough and can provide him the space coverage he needs to get the gimp.
 

Boiko

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Because the float gave you a silly amount of time to do basically whatever you wanted.
 

Narelex

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The fullycharged Fsmash was real against hangtime Roy last patch (wasn't it optional though?)
 
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G13_Flux

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Not that it matters now, but just for the record, Roy had the option in 3.5 to either float at the apex, or fall more quickly like he does now. That's what really made his recovery kind of busted. If you held down shortly after you chose the angle, it would act like 3.6. I don't think everyone knew about it, but his recovery has only gotten easier to edge guard, and by means of ledge hogging. It received no buffs
 

Jolteon

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I'm not convinced that just because Tink has a hard time pulling bombs, he loses the MU. He's good enough at creating space to get a bomb if he needs it. Plus he has a plethora of other tools and still has reasonable enough kill conversions out of the neutral. I should be seeing DVD soon, we'll play it out a bunch and I'll post more about it. Jolteon, if you play any good MKs lemme know what your experiences are/ what you find works or doesn't work.

Regardless of anything, I don't see it exceeding 55:45 in either direction.
It's actually very important, he doesn't really have another viable way to convert from neutral. His grab sucks and rang has high startup/gets CC'd/you can just shield it, his other moves are just basic neutral pokes for the most part. As safe as they are, it's not enough and he doesn't have any way to directly threaten DDing with him.

Anyway, that's not the only reason he loses. Even with a bomb out his neutral vs MK isn't very threatening, DD -> smart shield/wd oos usage shuts him down pretty hard and he can't just camp with a bomb in his hand because it blows up eventually. His projectiles have a ton of commitment on them and do very little vs shield, so you can take up enormous amounts of stage against him and keep threatening him constantly with a risk/reward that's pretty skewed in your favour. Every time TL chucks a rang or pull out a bomb he risks getting punished or pushed to the edge of the stage where MK chokes him out super hard, and when he does get one out safely he don't really get much from it unless MK ****s up and don't stay grounded. He's just very limited against DD + shield abuse in general, and MK's DD game is insane.

I've played both chars at a high level and the MU is just much easier to play with MK. MK's neutral and conversions are much more reliable, the only thing TL has is his punish game is easier to execute and his recovery might be better.

Good to hear I haven't fought toonlink enough this patch yet. The main reason it used to be bad was the fact we could never escape his up-b combos due to the way the hitbox used to work so it was a free kill like every time he grabbed us or comboed us due to our fallspeed/weight.

I will admit I'm a little biased towards him since I tend to struggle against projectiles cause my Perfect shielding/wavedash OOS game is not where I want it yet. Stupid hard presses ruining my WD OOS grumble johns grumble.

Do you think its 55/45 MK's Favour or worse for tink this patch?
I think it is 6:4 in MK's favour. TL's combos work best on semi-FF'ers like MK and it is not uncommon to death combo him as a result, 3.6's up+b change hasn't really changed that either (although the uthrow change has), but MK punishes him hard too (TL's tech roll sucks and dair bodies tethers) and he wins neutral pretty convincingly imo.
 
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Boiko

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Float was optional though...?
His descent after the apex of his upb feels like it begins a lot sooner. In 3.5, I was able to fall off>jump>nair his recovery so long as my intangibility was intact. Now he grabs ledge almost immediately after reaching the apex of upb. Maybe it just feels different to me.

Alternatively, you can just roll, but everyone knows it's never actually that easy.

@ Jolteon Jolteon Thanks for the input. I'll consider all of it and apply it to some matches.
 

Narelex

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Really curious who everyone thinks Mk's unfavourable Mu's this patch are It feels like he doesn't have many. Samus is his worst that I know off atm IMO. But I'm bad at judging really hard Mu's unless they feel unwinnable. (Yoshi last patch ew)
 
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666blaziken

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Wow, it sems like MK got really good this patch: he was already decent in 3.5, and with his major weaknesses being toned down a bit, he can potentially be a top 10 character now without being as free as he was in 3.02. I'm really happy about this!
 
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btw, I can back up Jolteons posts. Toon Link loses the direct dash dance mirror vs a lot of characters due to how he confirms out of his DD. A lot of other characters have a solid normal or two that they can whiff/use out of their DD to command space, or they have a reliable normal grab. Tink doesn't really have either of these, so he approaches his matchups with bombs as a way to confirm. The problem with this is that whenever tink is across the screen pulling a bomb, he ends up giving away stage position and putting himself in the open to be punished by characters with the dash speeds to do it, and metaknight is no exception.

Along with this, metaknights punish game on toon link is... a bit absurd. Down throw infinitely tech chases due to PMs poor tech roll mechanics and tinks already bad tech roll, so metaknight does that and forces you into an offstage position where you don't really have any counterplay vs his nair.

Toon Links only real positive in this matchup is his ability to death combo metaknight if given the opportunity to, but you don't have to respect his bomb pulls or grab attempts whatsoever

6-4 or worse MKs favor
 

Narelex

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btw, I can back up Jolteons posts. Toon Link loses the direct dash dance mirror vs a lot of characters due to how he confirms out of his DD. A lot of other characters have a solid normal or two that they can whiff/use out of their DD to command space, or they have a reliable normal grab. Tink doesn't really have either of these, so he approaches his matchups with bombs as a way to confirm. The problem with this is that whenever tink is across the screen pulling a bomb, he ends up giving away stage position and putting himself in the open to be punished by characters with the dash speeds to do it, and metaknight is no exception.

Along with this, metaknights punish game on toon link is... a bit absurd. Down throw infinitely tech chases due to PMs poor tech roll mechanics and tinks already bad tech roll, so metaknight does that and forces you into an offstage position where you don't really have any counterplay vs his nair.

Toon Links only real positive in this matchup is his ability to death combo metaknight if given the opportunity to, but you don't have to respect his bomb pulls or grab attempts whatsoever

6-4 or worse MKs favor
Yeah I feel like I was giving Tinks projectiles more credit then I should have. I didn't lose to any Tinks last patch either but again small region. It feels really easy this patch now that I've played it and MK's combos are disgusting in general. (but that's his shtick)

Wow, it sems like MK got really good this patch: he was already decent in 3.5, and with his major weaknesses being toned down a bit, he can potentially be a top 10 character now without being as free as he was in 3.02. I'm really happy about this!
He does have some very glaring weaknesses though. He has trouble with disjoint and tech chases. He also has more options then normal for recovery but they're laggy if he doesn't grab the ledge and of course his fallspeed is easy to combo and techroll is not great.

He Is quite a strong character but a lot of people aren't used to fighting him yet either. I do feel he's top 10 this patch if only due to his MU spread and tools.
 
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666blaziken

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btw, I can back up Jolteons posts. Toon Link loses the direct dash dance mirror vs a lot of characters due to how he confirms out of his DD. A lot of other characters have a solid normal or two that they can whiff/use out of their DD to command space, or they have a reliable normal grab. Tink doesn't really have either of these, so he approaches his matchups with bombs as a way to confirm. The problem with this is that whenever tink is across the screen pulling a bomb, he ends up giving away stage position and putting himself in the open to be punished by characters with the dash speeds to do it, and metaknight is no exception.

Along with this, metaknights punish game on toon link is... a bit absurd. Down throw infinitely tech chases due to PMs poor tech roll mechanics and tinks already bad tech roll, so metaknight does that and forces you into an offstage position where you don't really have any counterplay vs his nair.

Toon Links only real positive in this matchup is his ability to death combo metaknight if given the opportunity to, but you don't have to respect his bomb pulls or grab attempts whatsoever

6-4 or worse MKs favor
What's the difference between how PM handles tech rolls vs melee's way of handling tech rolls? Are PM character's tech rolls just kind of ****ty?
 

mimgrim

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What's the difference between how PM handles tech rolls vs melee's way of handling tech rolls? Are PM character's tech rolls just kind of ****ty?
Characters have different types of tech-rolls (same applies to Melee). All character have frame 40 tech-rolls but there are differences in distance, how they move, and what their invincibility frames are. As a result some characters have great tech rolls (Sheik, Falco), good/average ones (Fox), bad ones (MK, Tink, Falcon), and the ones with horrible tech rolls (Squirtle).

Bother generally handle the same way, there are just more viable characters with many different types of tech rolls which leads into there being more bad tech rolls in general.
 

Narelex

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Characters have different types of tech-rolls (same applies to Melee). All character have frame 40 tech-rolls but there are differences in distance, how they move, and what their invincibility frames are. As a result some characters have great tech rolls (Sheik, Falco), good/average ones (Fox), bad ones (MK, Tink, Falcon), and the ones with horrible tech rolls (Squirtle).

Bother generally handle the same way, there are just more viable characters with many different types of tech rolls which leads into there being more bad tech rolls in general.
Good Post pretty sure lucas and bowser fall under the horrible tech roll category as well. Someone should really make a Chart showing all the tech rolls.
 
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Sethlon

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My thoughts;

This match up has improved a lot for MK in 3.6. Dthrow tech chases give you a solid option vs Roy's "hold down and mash dtilt vs all your attacks", dair gives you a meaty aerial to drop with and KO Roy offstage, and improved dtilt lead to more launches into uair strings. Roy's overall nerfs give MK some leg up as well, especially the recovery change...being able to hog the ledge consistently to force Roy to land onstage or to set up invulnerable bair/nair/dair is much more realistic. Roy still dies to basically any hit offstage, and MK is pretty good at landing those hits now.

Roy still has a lot of things going for him, though. Upthrow vs MK gets him some guaranteed damage at some percents, and MK's booty tech roll off of Roy's fthrow still gets eaten alive by dtilt. MK is an amazingly good weight/fallspeed for Roy's dtilt combos, and while MK's improved weight will have him survive those a little longer, Roy can still link into kill moves at MK's death percent rather easily.

'45 MK - 55 Roy' sounds about right.
 
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Narelex

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My thoughts;

This match up has improved a lot for MK in 3.6. Dthrow tech chases give you a solid option vs Roy's "hold down and mash dtilt vs all your attacks", dair gives you a meaty aerial to drop with and KO Roy offstage, and improved dtilt lead to more launches into uair strings. Roy's overall nerfs give MK some leg up as well, especially the recovery change...being able to hog the ledge consistently to force Roy to land onstage or to set up invulnerable bair/nair/dair is much more realistic. Roy still dies to basically any hit offstage, and MK is pretty good at landing those hits now.

Roy still has a lot of things going for him, though. Upthrow vs MK gets him some guaranteed damage at some percents, and MK's booty tech roll off of Roy's fthrow still gets eaten alive by dtilt. MK is an amazingly good weight/fallspeed for Roy's dtilt combos, and while MK's improved weight will have him survive those a little longer, Roy can still link into kill moves at MK's death percent rather easily.

'45 MK - 55 Roy' sounds about right.
Great to hear your opinion. I have to concur that it feels like that.

Hopefully Dtilt battles between our two characters don't happen too often, I feel Roy has a better CC but we both have pretty damn solid Dtilts this patch. I do find it interesting when I was trying Roy that his Dtilt can't go into shield like you mentioned in your guide. MK's can any idea what the reason behind this is or is it just a preserved melee quirk?
 
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Sethlon

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Its actually a quirk that been in all the smash games afaik (with Marth and with Roy). My best guess would be Nintendo included that to try to discourage being able to shield safely after long pokes like Marth and Roy's, though that gets tossed out the window pretty quick once you realize you can just hold forward and shield (to IASA into the first frame of walking forward and then transition from that into shielding). Its not really impactful and has a little bit of flavor, so there wasn't really any reason to remove it for PM.
 

Strong Badam

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My thoughts;

This match up has improved a lot for MK in 3.6. Dthrow tech chases give you a solid option vs Roy's "hold down and mash dtilt vs all your attacks", dair gives you a meaty aerial to drop with and KO Roy offstage, and improved dtilt lead to more launches into uair strings. Roy's overall nerfs give MK some leg up as well, especially the recovery change...being able to hog the ledge consistently to force Roy to land onstage or to set up invulnerable bair/nair/dair is much more realistic. Roy still dies to basically any hit offstage, and MK is pretty good at landing those hits now.

Roy still has a lot of things going for him, though. Upthrow vs MK gets him some guaranteed damage at some percents, and MK's booty tech roll off of Roy's fthrow still gets eaten alive by dtilt. MK is an amazingly good weight/fallspeed for Roy's dtilt combos, and while MK's improved weight will have him survive those a little longer, Roy can still link into kill moves at MK's death percent rather easily.

'45 MK - 55 Roy' sounds about right.
You're obviously more qualified on the subject than me, but it feels even from the MK side. It may even be slight advantage to MK after his metagame gets fleshed out in this patch but maybe I'm underestimating how detrimental MK's techrolls are.
MK's dash dance is incredible, maybe top 5 in the game.
 

Sethlon

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Hmmm, could be. Haven't really fought any MKs that have used his DD to the fullest, and there's lots of room for stuff to be discovered still
 

Narelex

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Hmmm, could be. Haven't really fought any MKs that have used his DD to the fullest, and there's lots of room for stuff to be discovered still
If Roy didn't have all the tools MK struggles against onstage I feel MK wouldn't lose. The fast disjoints, amazing grab game and just really good combos into kill moves from Roy, really hurt us in general not to mention MK's recovery was nerfed slightly since he loses jumps when hit out of specials something that a angled roy ftilt or fsmash would be good at stopping if the MK gets predictable.

I do love playing this MU though since its super action packed and the tide can turn at the drop of a hat. Still too early to know for sure but a base idea is never a bad thing. Keep me updated on the your thoughts on the MU since my region is lacking in good Roy's for me to test it myself.

You're obviously more qualified on the subject than me, but it feels even from the MK side. It may even be slight advantage to MK after his metagame gets fleshed out in this patch but maybe I'm underestimating how detrimental MK's techrolls are.
MK's dash dance is incredible, maybe top 5 in the game.
Mk's Techroll is pretty bad and hurts him in a lot of Mu's but he needs weaknesses like that or you just end up with him from 3.02 again. If I ever play a good Roy I'll let you know my thoughts.
 
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