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Bowser Sucks this patch.I'm just gonna rank the characters I specifically disagree/ have a place for/on:
I am fairly certain about my other disagreements, but with Samus the matchup is weird. She completely bodies us off stage/ with projectiles, BUT her biggest weakness is getting juggled, which is something Metaknight is very very good at, so I think we might be able to win the matchup if we can just get in, so I don't know.
In any case, I don't know if I would change anything else, as my Mu experience is sort of limited. That said, I find it hard to believe that any of Metaknight's matchups are all too polarizing because although he does get gimped/ bodied by projectiles, Metaknight has a good neutral game and one of the most insane punish games in the game.
Metaknight is a fast character with good mix ups and plenty of options for most situations, and if you don't deal well with projectiles, use platforms and learn how to perfect shield/ apply pressure to force your opponent to stop using them, but that doesn't make the matchup unfavorable.
If a character has chaingrabs on Fox they likely can do it to MK. We have the 6th fastest fallspeed and a similar weight to Falco now. so most chars can get regrabs. Ganon has one for sure (but who doesn't he have one for) Most chars have some form of chainthrow at low percent's. If you can't Nair/DI out of it it's a chaingrab.I haven't played him against the whole cast but most of these I would agree on.
It seems that anyone that has a large reach just blocks all approach options and makes it hard to get in and have to play really patiently to get some hits in.
Metaknight does juggle fast fallers and heavy characters easily like bowser and charzard.
One thing I really like about metaknight that it is easy to be defensive with him and just wait for an opening.
Does anyone know what character if any can chain grab him?
Her vegetables are annoying and she's good at edgeguarding us. However we outpace her in Neutral. I want more data for this MU but it wasn't horrible last patch and it should theoretically be even better with our buffsAs a R.O.B and a MK player I've always had a changing opinion on the R.O.B MK match up from playing both sides of it at a reasonably high skill level. 3.0 he won it, 3.5 he seemed 2 lose it but now its probably evenish. I'll play it again soon enough and be certain but MK edgeguards on R.O.B are pretty good along with tech chasing. Comboing is also pretty easy now a days. The problems that come up are MK's laggy *** item throws and getting out ranged by boost nair, but honestly a MK with a good DD might scare a R.O.B player a lot.
Now for some first glance thoughts:
-I don't see why Peach is so bad, you can play around CC Dsmash
-I think edgeguarding Diddy is really free, but then again our bad item throws
-Others have said MK does good against Ness, seems pretty good but Ness can be spooky in general
-I don't know what made you go back on Snake, but he seems a lot better this patch so I wouldn't know
-Not sure about Ike, very solid character that obviously outranges us
-It really sucks not being able to hit aerial dins fires
- I also play ZSS and have played against her, not a fan playing this as MK
Most people don't play bowser very wellPersonally, I really hate the DK matchup, even though last time I played one was 3.5. He could basically just CC everything I could throw at him, a lot like Bowser. I don't think that the new dair would change this all that much, I'm not a master at the matchup though. Any reason why other people like this MU?
I think my bowser matchup is skewed cause my Local raid boss is Odds Its probably even against a bad bowser IMO, against anyone as good at bowser as Odds is its at best 55/45 his favour. Keep that in mind
I think most Falco players just don't know the MU personally (THERE I SAID IT). The lasers give us a really hard time and I feel most don't abuse it enough, they seem to run at us more then they should. He combo's us pretty well since we fall quickly. His abysmal recovery and the combos/edgeguards we get on him are the reason its only 55/45
I try to take him to a big stage with Platforms (to escape laser pressure/aid combo's). However I feel good falcos are difficult and bad falcos are easy so i'll make a note on my list all spacies are like that actually
OH shoot i didn't mean to put marth in unfavourable whoops yeah i agree its neutral.
I haven't played against tink enough post changes, did they nerf him that much? EDIT looks like they did. well at least in ways that affect our MU with him.
D3 is not favourable in the slightest He edgeguards us extremely well. Has huge range on his moves. Can tech chase to kill cause of our awful tech roll. A single side b can gimp us if he hits us during any special. anyway rant over
You're probably just a better player then the D3's you fought because we can win against bad ones due to his size, The HUGE lack of matchup knowledge most people have for the MK MU and the fact we can actually edgeguard him if we can get him offstage (against a good player keyword is IF). Its probably the only "regular" 60/40 MK still has this patch.
Charizard isn't favourable he's more likely even or slightly his favour. He combos us for days has good poke/CC and an amazing tech chase.
Haven't played against a good wolf to know for sure. It doesn't feel like a hard matchup but I'm not sure. However its likely neutral.
Rob you're probably correct just haven't fought a ROB since 3.6 dropped.
Pit sounds about right.
Sonic I agree with
main reason Samus is hard to deal with is we can't deal with missile spam, Our transcendent priority works against us here. and dash attacking a missile is a good way to get killed. She also can escape shield pressure with Up b out of shield and she's floaty with a frame 3 Nair so can be tricky to combo I might lower her but since I haven't played her post changes much I'll have to wait and see.
I think MK is a great character and you can win any matchup with practice (Cept maybe a D3)
Fair points but I'm not listing everything that a character has in a matchup its mostly just a quick-snap of it, Punish games aren't as huge as I might have been making them seem but its really easy to tell someone to punish better rather then something far more specific only they might know they are doing wrong.. Its also easy to say to gimp due to the fact lots of people miss the opportunity and watch their opponents recovery instead of going offstage for the chance for a kill (MU dependant tho). The neutral game is Incredibly important There's already a ton of threads of how to play it and I felt I didn't have anything to add in particular. MK has a really potent neutral especially against characters that have little disjoint or no projectiles.The biggest problem with your assessments is that you're putting too much weight on the punish games. That's not what dictates a match up. The reason Fox is such a good character, despite getting punished to death by almost the entire cast, is because no one can challenge him in the neutral. It doesn't matter if you can punish me to death if you never get the opportunity to get in. Gimping is an extension of the punish game. You may never get the opportunity to gimp someone if you can never succeed in the neutral game. It's important to consider, of course. Citing it as the sole reason why a character wins the MU is not the correct approach.You can say the punish game is in X character's favor because ABC, they can reach this situation by challenging Y option in the neutral with Z counter option which forces the opponent into a defensive position where you can ZYX.
This is why Meta Knight loses to Samus, for example. Does she have a hard time getting down from juggles, yes. But the question is, how often is Meta Knight going to be able to close the gap, pop her up, and then juggle her? Not very often. She has the necessary tools to keep him out and give him an overall difficult time in the neutral. Characters with fast options out of CC and the ability to spam projectiles and space with long poke tools are going to be MK's hardest match ups. Samus and Tink both give him a hard time.
MK has an extremely strong neutral game. He has great pokes, mobility, CC options, grab/boost grab, and tech chasing. He's one of the few characters who can beat Fox's nair shine pressure (CC ftilt will come out before the shine and lead to your own follow up/tech chase situation depending on DI/percent). He loses very few match ups in the game, and wins quite a bit.
And one more quick FTR, any character can escape Meta Knight's uair juggles with SDI. He has very low air mobility so he's forced to go on the ground and chase you down. At this point, most characters can safely reach a platform and force a new exchange. His up tilt isn't safe on an opponent shielding on a platform due to shield dropping to punish the cool down, so his juggle essentially ends there.
I'll comment more later when I have more time.
Chipgroove one of the best R.O.B players, top ****ing kek. And its pretty undeniable that we lose to Samus that character basically does everything MK does not want in his life, and its very similar with D3. Having even more experience with that MU then honestly anyone here the argument for a solid match up against him is being presented incorrectly for it doesn't account for plenty of factors.
Doing the dash dance neutral game is fine and all but having a projectile does limit it a TINY bit, this isn't what makes it bad, what makes it bad are 3 main factors: We get bodied by his crouch cancel, our techroll is free for down throw, even if you get some combos (you should but lets be real no one in this game actually DI's combos correctly against especially against a somewhat rare character like MK) he will not die, and will punish you just as hard if they play it right. His recovery and weight make you really have to fish for unreliable kill setups for Down B's and Fsmashes for a decent kill percentage, but even then those moves don't amount to anything on the kind of stages a D3 would counterpick to, and it's not like the starter your gonna end up going to should be small either. To beat his CC you obviously should fish for grabs with boost grabs and whatever but if you have one option that works at these low percents it will be easily read and played to counter it. MK isn't going to land Upair Upair knee when he gets a grab either. D3's downthrow is pretty powerful against us though, and his grab range covers the spots MK wants to be in neutral, a dtilt/dsmash away or about to land that grab or shffl. The followups are pretty consistent and that throw at ledge is no bueno for us. To add if you wanted to play around this grab range by staying back more or coming from the air Ftilt and Fair say hello and obviously at most percents coming from the air will be CC'd if he doesn't stuff it anyway. Not a fun time
Anyway I'm not really going to argue for my first impressions for I haven't played them enough this patch but I'll present some other impressions I've got:
honestly should be bad, people have always overrated this character but he is obviously a big threat. I'd play R.O.B vs Wolf any day of the week but I don't think you guys have played a Wolf with a proper waveland laser game because I have no idea how this character would get past that that outside of spamming dash attack which isn't a great option.
probably even, hurts to say because I always hate fighting good Pikachu's, but my MK took a game or two off a great Pika player. It still surprises me how early Upsmash kills even a fastfaller and thunderjolts are actually pretty useful in this match up. We can edgeguard and DD pretty well, I also don't remember Pika having a good techroll too.
Squritle players suck, probably EZ money
We might win this, Wario has always had a huge problem with range and I think grab followups are decent on him.
Probably even, another character everyone plays like **** but I've played Sonic's better than my MK and have done pretty well.
Also I have vods of a lot of match ups and can get more if anyone wants a reference. My MK shouldn't define MU's but footage is always a good reference point.
My opinion on is that my personal practice partner is Chipgroove, who is probably one of the best Rob players out there, and one of the best players in GA. He beats me a lot because he is better than me, but I can tell it is a player thing. Rob gimps as very hard, but we also gimp him as well because of his 3 boosts in the air. If we can effectively keep him in the air, it is not that hard to take his stocks quickly.
And I think you tend to overvalue the strengths of other characters versus our strengths. MK is very good against heavies in that he comboes pretty much all of them into oblivion, but if you get hit, you will probably take a lot of damges and/or die because they are heavies.You just really have to use Metaknight's speed and mix ups to get in/ recover against them, and you can't be one dimensional because you'll get pooped on.
For specifically, MK gets bodied in that if Bowser hits you a few times, you die, but Bowser has a worse neutral than MK, so you really have to win the neutral to set up your highly abusive punish game. This matchup is just very volatile, and I am heavily convinced that it is neutral at the highest level, but lower than that, it is probably in Bowser's favor bc he hits harder.
Also, I have played with Smur for a while, and although I havent fought his on this patch yet, I have plenty enough matchup experience to feel the matchup is at the very least slightly in our favor. So what if it is easy to edge guard us? He edge guards like the entire cast super easy. I could be wrong, but I honestly think this is at the very least, even. Though this is the one that I concede I may be wrong about.
And with , regardless of anything else, have you noticed how easy it is to juggle him? He has no good way of escaping our up air juggles. I 0 to deathed a charizard this past Monday just on the merit of popping him up once.
As for the spacies, I do agree that is probably the most difficult to deal with, but that doesn't mean the MU isn't neutral. He hurts everyone with lazer pressure because no one can clank them, but with that said, he has a bad tech roll, and is combo food for us just as we are for him., plus we have the sweet gimps on Falco. Awww yeah
As for , I am inclined to agree that Missile pressure is difficult to deal with, and she def has free gimps on us, but her greatest weakness is juggling which we do well, and I urge you to practice perfect shielding and using platforms to dodge projectiles. Just because we can't clank them with attacks does not mean we are going to lose indefinitely. I feel like her missilies put neutral in her favor, but our punish game probably pulls it back to around 55/45 in her favor. I may be biased, but I practiced perfect shielding missiles back in 3.02 bc my friend played Samus, so there is that.
I don't normally post...well, at all really, but I had to play against CalmAnimal in tournament last night. Unfortunately it was off stream so it wasn't recorded.
Calm is a Bowser player who has taken a set off of Sethlon, Oracle, Luck, and has always placed well out here. I two stocked him twice when we played because he was never able to recover past me from the ledge.
I actually think that Metaknight has a strong advantage against Bowser. Bowser is easy to grab, easy to tech chase, very easy to juggle, and suffers very badly from a lack of speed or any ability to get either in on or away from Metaknight, and our Neutral Air from the ledge beats all of his recovery options even without invincibility.
I'd also like to say that I feel that the Falco matchup is favorable as well. I've played many sets against Dakpo's Falco and against Westballz the couple of times he's been in Dallas and it always feels like Falco is struggling against Metaknight (and this was in 3.5 before MK got a slew of buffs).
This is purely conjecture and you can feel free to take it how you want, but thought I might stop in and offer my 2 cents. Good luck with the rest of this project :-)
Every insight you had was just you saying what characters you like and which ones you don't. Seems way to biased I mean 70/30 Ness cmon if razor leaf is easy to deal with with wings a laggy ass PK fire shouldn't be much more of a challenge. Going against the general opinion is fine and all but you gotta have the right evidence and experience to back it up. Playing a good player like Big D should show you all the tools D3 has against MK and even then https://twitter.com/odds_ssbpm/status/593056679605850112 is a commonly held opinion (Sorry Big D <3). A match up number represents how the match up should play out at THE HIGHEST level of play, preferably a point that we are a ways off from. Thanks for the post none the less.A good Bowser beats you pretty easily.
I've had a lot of trouble with Link. If he spaces you out appropriately and uses those filthy tilts you'll probably just get bopped.
Pikachu is really irritating if they have a good knowledge of quick attack and stay under you.
Spacies are pretty much free. Resetting with F-tilt and F-Air is too easy.
- Only super good one I've fought is Odds and it seemed heavily in Bowser's favor if he uses armor properly. Then again, Odds was also the superior player. 60/40 Bowser
- Never had any trouble with Falcon. He's very easy to combo due to his weight. I'm also an old Falcon main so there's not a trick I haven't seen yet so maybe a little biased. 60/40 MK
- I'd say even. I don't feel overwhelmingly powerful or underwhelmingly weak. 50/50
- The only D3 I've had trouble with is Big D but again, he was the superior player. Feels 50/50 to me. Just be patient and space out F-tilt and give him the platform if he's on the edge. 50/50
- Never fought a super good one yet so no idea. I'd say in MK's favor though. Banana shenanigans hard to use on a guy with wings. 55/45 MK
- Really irritating match-up. Due to our surprisingly fat weight we're easily combo'd by ape. The new D-Air in 3.6 is REALLY nice for edge-guarding him though. 55/45 DK
- Really depends. I've fought some good Falco (and very laser heavy ones). I'd say if the MK is playing at the top of his game it's free though. He's very heavy and once you get at about mid-range he really has no option that beats F-tilt. 60/40 MK
- The only really good Fox I've fought is SW and even then I've not even played him in PM. Honestly no idea. 50/50 until further analysis
- Due to our weight we're very easily to combo by the Big Bad himself. However our blinding speed and the lovely F-tilt makes this match-up very nice. If he's on a platform he's meat. If he gets a grab though it doesn't look too good for us. 50/50
- Fairly irritating but not enough data to really know.
- Never really had trouble with any Ikes so far. Our neutral game easily outpaces his and Quickdraw really has never been a problem for me at least. I haven't fought an Ike at the level of say... Just or Ally but I almost always win this match-up. 60/40 MK
- Honestly never had trouble with an Ivysaur. Razor Leaf is really easy to deal with with multiple jumps. Mid-range game is about even I'd say. I personally think MK barely ekes ahead here. 55/45 MK
- Really easy to out-poke. Gimping MK isn't really an option and the only real option she has is Rest. If she misses Rest it's free. 60/40 MK
- Kirby has a ton of stuff that punishes MK quite handily and vice-versa, I have however only fought one decent Kirby. Pending for further analysis.
- The only decent Link I've fought bopped me quite handily. I really had no answer to any of his projectiles and when he spaced out his tilts I couldn't contest with anything. Up-B also VERY deadly against our recovery.
- No data.
- No data.
- Irritating with Misfire's but that's about it. Our ground and air-game is superior and as Luigi always wants to be in the air it's easy pickings. 60/40 MK
- No data.
- Straight fifty fifty, everyone knows Marths tools so not going to elaborate. 50/50
- MK OP, please nerf. 100/0 MK
- I used to have a lot of trouble in this match-up. It seemed anything he threw out just completely bopped me. It still does. HOWEVER after learning a bit of patience this match-up is a breeze. Just dash dance and wait for him to do anything. Anything he does has extreme landing lag even with an L-cancel. Space out F-Air and it''s free. If he goes for key shenanigans just Up-tilt until he learns respect. Up smash is deadly but it's godlike against everyone so... eh. 55/45 MK
- Despise Ness. Everything he does easily combos MK due to our weight. If he hits Side-B expect to eat at least 35%. Back throw and Up throw both lethal against us. No real answer to Side-B. 70/30 Ness
- No data.
- No data.
D3 where do you fit this patch hmm.Every insight you had was just you saying what characters you like and which ones you don't. Seems way to biased I mean 70/30 Ness cmon if razor leaf is easy to deal with with wings a laggy *** PK fire shouldn't be much more of a challenge. Going against the general opinion is fine and all but you gotta have the right evidence and experience to back it up. Playing a good player like Big D should show you all the tools D3 has against MK and even then https://twitter.com/odds_ssbpm/status/593056679605850112 is a commonly held opinion (Sorry Big D <3). A match up number represents how the match up should play out at THE HIGHEST level of play, preferably a point that we are a ways off from. Thanks for the post none the less.
Not sure about Jeff but with David I haven't seen his Wolf in awhile. I see mostly Falcon, Fox Marth it feels like from our scene. (Its like we're mostly a melee scene or something)Hm, do David and Jeff not play Wolf anymore, or are you just not counting them? : P
That's a special case the free wins section is only for characters that struggle heavily against us with no MK MU knowledge. Would never put any character in a free win tier without something like MU knowledge attached."Bowser: Free Win"
really? I don't really feel like this is accurate at all
I definently agree the nerfs shifted the matchup but I feel like MKs without Bowser knowledge would also struggle very hard. When both players know the MU i'm not sure if it's even or not though but it's a lot closerThat's a special case the free wins section is only for characters that struggle heavily against us with no MK MU knowledge. Would never put any character in a free win tier without something like MU knowledge attached.
(barring Jiggs cause she's really bad vs MK)
He's a favourable MU on the actual list. With the removal of a lot of his armour and a far worse dash attack this MU has shifted since 3.5. I do have Odds to practice against, so I find other Bowsers very easy to beat so I could very well be biased. But I feel like MK has a lot of the tools that Bowser struggles against.
Infinity made a post talking about his experiences against calm animal higher up the thread as well if you'd take the time to read it.
Sorry the way I worded it might come off as confusing. What I meant by the lack of MU knowledge is that the MK knows the MU the other character does not.I definently agree the nerfs shifted the matchup but I feel like MKs without Bowser knowledge would also struggle very hard. When both players know the MU i'm not sure if it's even or not though but it's a lot closer
I feel like I need to gather more data on the D3 MU in 3.6. Might be overblowing his difficulty since the last time I fought a good one was 3.5MK's tech chase/neutral/combo game vs big chars in general is extremely good. Even in 3.5 the only time I've taken a set from the best Ddd in our state was using MK. Now his setups are consistent again, and his tech chasing is even better thanks to the new dair and a stronger d cape.
Obviously ddd can edgeguard well, that's what he does. Try mixing it up and recovering with down b. Ddd loves to "aerial dash dance" with his different tools but mk is one of the characters that can contest this consistently because up air is just so good. Invincible nair/dair/bair is great for edgeguarding if you get your timing down.
As for Rob, I feel the MU is quite even in this patch. I played DF in a few games at my place(mostly played Roy cuz I had to get that comparison after his recent win over sethlon lol) and I personally feel it's fine. It's really important to control the mario kart powerup. Run up > sh > wave land back is good. Also, robs tech options are terrible, and it makes for easy d cape tech chases. You can't clank laser anyways, so this isn't a disadvantage for mk projectile wise.
Vods aren't released just yet. It will be under the LSU smash channel. I'll pm it when it's upI feel like I need to gather more data on the D3 MU in 3.6. Might be overblowing his difficulty since the last time I fought a good one was 3.5
From the little I've played this MU this patch it feels much better, I might move it down to even. but I want more data before doing that.
ROB is even on the list for a reason. So much of his dumb stuff from 3.5 is gone.
Also I can't find the VOD for DF vs sethlon could you PM me it?
Fine, from now on I'll specifically say "that thing he does where he kinda camps the top platform but kinda jumps a lot and baits you into his fall through dair"Did someone really use the term aerial dash dance seriously, even referring to Dedede? Sorry kinda on edge now lmao
Its okay I understood you meant that weird thing that you just said. The only really good D3 I've played against (in 3.5) did that quite a bit actually.Fine, from now on I'll specifically say "that thing he does where he kinda camps the top platform but kinda jumps a lot and baits you into his fall through dair"
Really though, I can't think of a reason as to why it matters lol.