MK Matchup's 3.6

[_Chrome]

Does anyone have any tips on how to play against Luigi? It's the obscure characters that always get me lol. I kept frickin losing to him last night haha.

Also, as for playing against Sheik, the MK has to be really guarded. Sure, we have a great advantage in that that we have a quick, fast disjoint, but we have to be super careful because her punishes are better than ours, unfortunately. We want to use our dash dance to invade your space and get you hiding in shield so we can bait out poor options or grab you and try and get a punish. Edgeguarding Sheik makes life a lot easier for MK, but most of the time I end up killing at higher percentage with nair or dsmash.

My training partner in Melee is a Sheik main, so I have decent experience in the matchup.

 

[Taytertot]

Does anyone have any tips on how to play against Luigi? It's the obscure characters that always get me lol. I kept frickin losing to him last night haha.

Also, as for playing against Sheik, the MK has to be really guarded. Sure, we have a great advantage in that that we have a quick, fast disjoint, but we have to be super careful because her punishes are better than ours, unfortunately. We want to use our dash dance to invade your space and get you hiding in shield so we can bait out poor options or grab you and try and get a punish. Edgeguarding Sheik makes life a lot easier for MK, but most of the time I end up killing at higher percentage with nair or dsmash.

My training partner in Melee is a Sheik main, so I have decent experience in the matchup.

well id imagine luigi is tough for mk but i think just trying to wall luigi out and poke at him is best because if hes allowed in then he can get trades that are heavily in his favor. i think getting stocks off with edgeguards will be good since nair will destroy all his recovery options. im not sure what else as im unfamiliar with this mu

 

[bassoon titanium]

Ideas for the marth matchup? Edgeguarding and punish game in this match-up is a breeze for me but neutral's a struggle for me because of the superior range marth has over us.

 

[Ogopogo]

Does anyone have any tips on how to play against Luigi? It's the obscure characters that always get me lol. I kept frickin losing to him last night haha

Get him in the air and never let him down, ever.

MK's uair is amazing at juggling. Characters that struggle to get down (like samus and luigi) should get badly hurt every time they're above MK. Also interrupt Luigi's recovery once and he's probably dead if he doesn't have a jump.

 

[_Chrome]

Thank you, but that's kind of obvious. I've definitely tried doing that it but that's not enough. I'm more looking for things to do in the neutral game that are strong tactics against Luigi. How can I bait him out? I understand Luigi's weak on platforms, but how can I actively apply pressure on him? Also what stages should I be choosing?

 

[Tealz]

This matchup is quite a bit in MKs favor imo. Forward tilt completely destroys luigi. The only thing that makes this matchup manageable for Luigi is fireballs. Luigi literally cannot approach you if you time your ftilts and dtilts correctly.

 

[_Chrome]

Thanks! I figured spacing with ftilts and dtilts was really good spacing him out since he can only approach on the ground, it comes out quickly and has good range, I guess my punishes need to be more on point as well, I was dropping a few of them and Luigi's a killer. I suppose hanging back and playing the spacing game is more to my favour then rather speed and aggression, or should I mix both of the tactics? I came close a few times but I have no experience in the MU and it was difficult for me to get a hang of, but I can definitely see how that works.

MK's ftilt is super-duper good in a lot of MUs and as a general combo starter. I started to do better when I played like that too (now that I've been able to reflect upon it), so thank you again for the input.

 

[Tealz]

Thanks! I figured spacing with ftilts and dtilts was really good spacing him out since he can only approach on the ground, it comes out quickly and has good range, I guess my punishes need to be more on point as well, I was dropping a few of them and Luigi's a killer. I suppose hanging back and playing the spacing game is more to my favour then rather speed and aggression, or should I mix both of the tactics? I came close a few times but I have no experience in the MU and it was difficult for me to get a hang of, but I can definitely see how that works.

MK's ftilt is super-duper good in a lot of MUs and as a general combo starter. I started to do better when I played like that too (now that I've been able to reflect upon it), so thank you again for the input.

The main thing with MK is knowing when to go in and stick to your opponent and when to back off. MK is a really good character to be able to stick to your opponent once you find an opening. With that said, Luigi is not like that. He has the ability to break out of hitstun really quickly. You can only afford to get like 3 hits on him before he can nair or fair to combo break you. MK is really good in both the spacing game and the aggression game, so use both wisely.

 

[Faust the Lich]

Personally, I find the bowser and DK matchup to be less than favorable. It feels like they beat you in neutral with CC, and poking at DK with d-tilt is hard because of his long grab. DK can also use his d-tilt to stop grab approaches, and he can combo you to death easily. Bowser kills MK in a few hits aswell, and the armour on his nair can break through up-air (I'm pretty sure).

Also, how do people do the sheik matchup? I'm struggling a lot in it.

 

[Taytertot]

Personally, I find the bowser and DK matchup to be less than favorable. It feels like they beat you in neutral with CC, and poking at DK with d-tilt is hard because of his long grab. DK can also use his d-tilt to stop grab approaches, and he can combo you to death easily. Bowser kills MK in a few hits aswell, and the armour on his nair can break through up-air (I'm pretty sure).

Also, how do people do the sheik matchup? I'm struggling a lot in it.

if they are CCing a lot of your options then you should try to grab more and force tech situations where you can get in tilts etc. on a tech chase.

 

[Faust the Lich]

if they are CCing a lot of your options then you should try to grab more and force tech situations where you can get in tilts etc. on a tech chase.

Naturally, but DK's reach in the neutral makes it feel overwhelming. If I go for a grab, it can be snuffed out by a d-tilt. If I d-tilt, I need to space it well or I can get grabbed. If I nair, a shield or CC can beat it. And its pretty much 1-touch. It's definetly doable and winnable, but I'm suggesting its 60:40 DK. I know some other MKs agree with this

 

[Taytertot]

Naturally, but DK's reach in the neutral makes it feel overwhelming. If I go for a grab, it can be snuffed out by a d-tilt. If I d-tilt, I need to space it well or I can get grabbed. If I nair, a shield or CC can beat it. And its pretty much 1-touch. It's definetly doable and winnable, but I'm suggesting its 60:40 DK. I know some other MKs agree with this

i definitely see what youre saying but i feel that MK's DD should be able to scare DK into throwing out tilts or grabs too early because you can rush into his range and then dash out just long enough to dash in and start dthrow tech chasing or if the DK is being to passive then you could just rush in with a grab, tilt or aerial. idk for sure but id guess that MK's bair would be difficult to CC so as a mixup you could DD into RAR bair. if youre feeling kinda risky you could DD around and then randoming throw out a quick DC attack (using the A attack cause holding B would give them too much time to react.). another great mixup might be DD into a DACUS since multihit attacks cant be true CC'd and i dont think DK can even ASDI MK's usmash, which would lead into juggles and then an edgeguard ideally.

I understand that DK is kinda a touch of death character in this MU but MK should be too since getting DK offstage isnt too hard and getting an edgeguard from there should, in theory, never be dropped.

 

[Kneato]

Format- Character: Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has MK winning)

:-1

:0

:+2

:0

:0

:0

:+1

:+2

:-1

:+1

:-1

:+1

:0

:+1

:+1

:+1

:+2

:0

:+2

:+2

:+1

:0

:0

:+1

:+1

:+1

:+2

:+2

:+1

:+1

:+2

:0

:+1

:+2

:+1

:+2

:+1

:+2

:+3

:+2

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

 

[_Chrome]

I don't think DK vs MK is +3 (maybe +2), I think ZSS beats MK very slightly, and Sonic vs MK is even (the tech will come out soon, those guys are labbing the **** out of the character). I'd like to discuss the possibility of Falco losing slightly to MK and any of those matchups at all, just provide a little perspective on the matchups I've listed that you want to discuss if any. A pretty good list overall, good work.

 

[eideeiit]

Phresh thinks ICs beat MK or at least go even. Idk tho.

 

[_Chrome]

I really can't see that. I can see the ICs having lots of trouble grabbing him, plus MK has very easy ways of separating them with dsmash, nair and other tools. I don't want to get too into it right now but I can't see that being a thing unless he gives some kind of explanation. Is there any chance he can shed some light on that?

 

[eideeiit]

He's played Gurukid a lot afaik. You can probably find some sets on yt.

I think the main things are how MK's weight is very good for grab combos, he's light enough to die easily, he has more trouble with desynchs than most.

 

[Faust the Lich]

He's played Gurukid a lot afaik. You can probably find some sets on yt.

I think the main things are how MK's weight is very good for grab combos, he's light enough to die easily, he has more trouble with desynchs than most.

He can also be footstool infinite'd

 

[Tobb99]

Can MK be Sopo chaingrabbed??

 

[Tealz]

Format- Character: Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has MK winning)

:-1

:0

:+2

:0

:0

:0

:+1

:+2

:-1

:+1

:-1

:+1

:0

:+1

:+1

:+1

:+2

:0

:+2

:+2

:+1

:0

:0

:+1

:+1

:+1

:+2

:+2

:+1

:+1

:+2

:0

:+1

:+2

:+1

:+2

:+1

:+2

:+3

:+2

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

Kirby is not +2. He is +1 at best, and I play against Yador a lot so that gives me a bit insight on how the matchup actually goes. Wario is about even, Ivy is about even i say (i play with Machiavelli, so that might be why i think this), and no way in hell is link +2. A character with that much item play and a chain grab until death is not that much in MKs favor. I could see people seeing that as +1, but i think it's 50/50. Tink +1, Mewtwo +1 (dont feel too strongly about this), Zelda either even or +1 (floaties in general blow), DK +1, Snake +1, and Sonic even.

 

[eideeiit]

Kirby is not +2. He is +1 at best, and I play against Yador a lot so that gives me a bit insight on how the matchup actually goes. Wario is about even, Ivy is about even i say (i play with Machiavelli, so that might be why i think this), and no way in hell is link +2. A character with that much item play and a chain grab until death is not that much in MKs favor. I could see people seeing that as +1, but i think it's 50/50. Tink +1, Mewtwo +1 (dont feel too strongly about this), Zelda either even or +1 (floaties in general blow), DK +1, Snake +1, and Sonic even.

Why? Esp. Sonic I'd love to hear your reasoning for.

 

[_Chrome]

Avro-Arrow @Star ☆ GabPR Do you Sonic boys wanna talk about MK vs Sonic here? Afaik we all think it's neutral or very slight MK. I think only Windex thinks Sonic wins it right now.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

That MU is super fun. I can talk quite a bit about it, but I'll come back later when I have more time to do a proper write-up. They're definitely more qualified than me to talk about stuff though. @Karma! has good MK experience too.

BTW I agree with everything Tealz said, lol. Zelda would be +1 IMO with proper counterplay by MK, and I also think Roy would be like -1.5 or -2 although I wouldn't argue -1; it's just his punish game is so dang easy on MK.

 

[GabPR]

Avro-Arrow @Star ☆ GabPR Do you Sonic boys wanna talk about MK vs Sonic here? Afaik we all think it's neutral or very slight MK. I think only Windex thinks Sonic wins it right now.

I dont have any top level experience vs a MK so I wont really go too in depth, but one of my practice partners uses him so I will provide some of my thoughts as of now:

MK, like most sword characters, outprioritizes Sonic on most of his moves, the exceptions being well spaced bairs and possibly fairs, though that alone does not dictate the matchup due to Sonic's numerous movement options he can use to out position him and facilitate an approach. That being said, MK's neutral game revolves around cornering Sonic and taking away his movement options to limit or negate his attempts at approaching. For these reasons MK should opt for smaller stages and Sonic should opt for larger ones (There are some exceptions depending on game plan but I dont got time to go into detail). Punish game wise they both hit pretty hard, Should MK get grabbed and upthrow he will get punish no matter what, so you gotta chose your di accordingly, if you are in mid high to high percents, do not di out unless you want to get dair spiked, if you di in Sonic can still kill you, but its not as guarenteed as dair spiked and The followups are less obvious (unless you are above 100, in which case he can kill you with up air) so yeah there is that. I am not too familiar with mk's grab followups aside from dthrow tech chases, so if a MK could tell me I could give a better opinion on it. Thats all for now

 

[Tealz]

With MKs throws on Sonic, f-throw on bad di (no DI or DI in) will lead to IDC at mid percents, fair at lower percents, and basically nothing at high percent. Down throw forces tech chase at low to mid percent, but at high percent i think sonic can wiggle out of hitstun before he hits the ground. back throw is mainly used to get him off stage. up throw will lead to IDC at around 80%-110% (rough estimates) with DI away, DI in leads to bair, no DI leads to nair. Main reason I think it is even is because Sonic has the speed needed to get in inbetween your zoning aerials/tilts. His punish game on you can be pretty brutal (but who doesn't have one on MK). If you try to zone with down tilts and forward tilts, he can short hop fair you. Keep in mind that most of these windows are really tight, but like i said, sonic has the speed to fit into these windows.

 

[_Chrome]

To clarify, unlike against most characters IDC from uthrow on Sonic does not work past anything around 80% since Sonic is such a floaty character and can upb, double jump, or just full DI away from MK and you won't be able to get him. IDC from uthrow starts working at around mid-late 50% and always works in the standard 60% and 70% range. Dthrow is predictably great against Sonic since Sonic's tech roll is garbage, and at later percents it can set up into into a nair or an IDC on non-optimal DI.

All in all, grabbing Sonic is very difficult as is and it won't really net you anything great in my experience unless it's dthrow at low percents or uthrow at mid percents. Sonic can somewhat consistently kill you at 50% if you full DI away his uthrow since he'll dair spike you. If you don't full DI away you'll eat uairs or fairs for days.

 

[Narelex]

So Tealz gave me the courtesy of going over MU's with me and I've updated the list at the front to be more current.

Have fun discussing MU's everyone.