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MK Matchup's 3.6

_Chrome

Smash Ace
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Another really good kill set-up is u-throw into down-b at around 80-100% on most characters, it's really solid. If you don't know how to already, I suggest practicing how to Jump Cancel grab. It makes getting grabs so much quicker and safer. Iirc, dash grab only has the slightest bit more range to it than the standing grab, but it has more end lag.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
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ok i'll work on testing stuff out just figured id ask.

which direction would DC toward after the uthrow to get the hit? (obviously different fall speeds are going to effect it but generally speaking). also would i have to use the quick DC attack or the heavy slow one?
 

_Chrome

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ok i'll work on testing stuff out just figured id ask.

which direction would DC toward after the uthrow to get the hit? (obviously different fall speeds are going to effect it but generally speaking). also would i have to use the quick DC attack or the heavy slow one?
All you need to do is follow their DI. If they're close in use the IDC, if they're farther away use the full one. If they don't DI you get a free nair a lot of the time.
 

Taytertot

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ok i'll try that. i cant say that ive found uthrow that useful so far so itd be nice to learn to add it to my potential mixups. i have gotten uair and nair out of it before but it always seems like my opponent (which is sadly a CPU often since i practice at home a lot) simply didnt try to challenge me after being u-thrown when it looked like they could have started an aerial. is the hitstun on uthrow deceptively long because i generally feel like (even at higher percents) im putting myself at a frame disadvantage when i use it.
 

_Chrome

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ok i'll try that. i cant say that ive found uthrow that useful so far so itd be nice to learn to add it to my potential mixups. i have gotten uair and nair out of it before but it always seems like my opponent (which is sadly a CPU often since i practice at home a lot) simply didnt try to challenge me after being u-thrown when it looked like they could have started an aerial. is the hitstun on uthrow deceptively long because i generally feel like (even at higher percents) im putting myself at a frame disadvantage when i use it.
Yeah the CPUs don't do anything when you uthrow them unfortunately. -_____- However, I can link you a video of Holy who uses the uthrow well iirc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLB7oaSZg-I

This is his MK vs a Captain Falcon, so it should be pretty applicable for you. You can look at more of his content at that tournament where he also plays CoffeeBlack's Fox.
 

Taytertot

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Yeah the CPUs don't do anything when you uthrow them unfortunately. -_____- However, I can link you a video of Holy who uses the uthrow well iirc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLB7oaSZg-I

This is his MK vs a Captain Falcon, so it should be pretty applicable for you. You can look at more of his content at that tournament where he also plays CoffeeBlack's Fox.
jesus that game was rough. holy just crapped on that falcon player. thanks for the link i'll definitely go over it a few times to figure out what i need to add to my MK.
 

SoulOfSmash

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So I just posted this all to some of the other Samus players but MK is my secondary so I suppose I can give some incite on the Samus vs MK matchup here.


Pros for Samus:

-MK can't do ANYTHING about projectiles. He isn't like Falcon or Marth that can just Nair/Fair through missiles and beat the pressure on approach. MK is forced to avoid everything you throw at him.

-MK's recovery is very punishable and gimpable. While MK has a very long recovery it isn't necessarily good. All of his recovery moves are very easy to knock him out of, drill (Side-B) can be CC'd and almost impossible to sweetspot so D-Tilt beats it pretty easily. Tornado (Neutra-B) just sucks in PM no real other way of putting it you can get good height off of it and really is the only solid vertical recovery he has (I know sad right), cape (Down-B) is the worst teleports in the game, he gets no intangibility off of it, tons of landing lag and kind of hard to sweetspot with especially from below, shuttle loop (Up-B) if you get knocked out of glide by anything you loose it, it is one of the worst glides in the game as well (probably the worst) they just screwed this move up HARD, I just want them to give him his S4 up-B personally. So basically all Samus needs to do is shoot some missiles off stage (homing are preferred imo) lay a bomb on the edge when they get close and wait for the terrible recovery option. Not the mention MK has no reliable meteor cancel option he's actually kind of like Bowser/DK so if you smack him with a Dair he's usually toast.

-MK is a REALLY bad weight/fall speed for kill options. If their DI is even slightly off D-Throw into any kill option will almost always connect at kill percents (also haven't really impremented it a ton in my playstyle yet but I'm confident Jab>kill option is pretty guaranteed on MK). MK is in such a weird spot on the weight/fall speed chart kind of the opposite of Samus really light but falls fast. Turns out though this is pretty bad for him since he doesn't fall as fast as spacies but is a lot lighter then them so he just kind of gets thrashed by any solid kill move.

-MK is weak to crouch cancelling. This is not a surprise, he got a new tool with Dair recently but basically everything else can be CC punished. His most common approach tools (fair, nair, ftilt, dtilt, upair) can all be CC'd (except initial hits of Nair but for that they literally have to be directly on top of you and why aren't you shielding) He is also pretty weak to OoS options since a lot of his aerials have a decent amount of endlag and little shield stun so Screwattack is a go to almost all the time. Up-Smash (especially Ice) can work as well but since they're a little slower you need to make sure your on point with your timing.

So yeah wrap up of all that: Projectiles screw him, punish his recovery, get your kill options thanks to his weight/fall speed, CC screws him even harder.

Pro's for MK:

-MK beats anything Samus has in the air. That's just the style of his character, his aerials can just ignore anything you got going on since Samus really has no disjoints (Fair a little I guess?)

-MK can kill very early. If your DI isn't on point and the MK is good at sweetspotting his Up-Airs (which is not hard to do) you can easily find yourself being juggled into an Up-B and depending on the stage you may die absurdly early. Yoshi's and Wario Land (especially Wario) don't be surprised to die at like 40% if you got bad DI. PS2 a Samus staple also has a super low ceiling so again watch out there.

-MK has amazing edguearding especially vs Samus' tether. Don't need to really touch to much on this since I'm sure you all know. Nair is amazing vs tethers, Bair can go out and challenge your bomb jumps without fear, and he has plenty of options to punish a forced getup off ledge like Nair Dair or even normal getup Dsmash or Fsmash if they're fast with it.

-MK has an amazing grab and dash dance. While MK's DD game is hurt by the projectiles he can still use it exceptionally well when he gets the chance. His grab is also amazing, it has surprising range especially boost and pivot grab (pivot grab is enormous PMDT please don't touch I like it) and while he cant get a lot out of his grabs anymore they still can rack up good damage fast if you got bad DI and get chain grabbed for a bit. His bthrow can kind of be used for a mixup but its not as strong anymore since the iasa frames were nerfed so he cant act out of it fast anymore. Upthrow is really stong and at mid percents on samus can lead into a kill option with bad DI (just go up and away or strait away always) no DI or up can lead into an shuttleloop or cape, back di can lead into a bair. At high percents though you don't need to worry about his throws that much anymore thanks to Samus being awesome.

-MK has a pretty good CC aswell. His Dsmash comes out on frame 4 and can kill and his dtilt is just like Roys which can pop you up for juggles so be careful with your pressure you don't wana be killed because your not respecting his CC like he should be respecting yours.

-MK really has no bad stage. This is just in my opinion but I never feel disadvantaged on any stage. MK can pretty much fight anywhere and I guess that's why I like him as my secondary. I personally don't like stages like Yoshi's Story, Wario Land and GHZ with Samus but for MK those stages are my favorites (especially GHZ :)

anyway so wrapup from this part: Beats Samus in the air, solid edgeguarding, amazing DD and grabs, good CC, and no bad stages.

I can see why people think MK looses to Samus and vice-versa but to me its almost even but with a slight advantage to Samus because of all her solid anti-MK tools.
 

Taytertot

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hows the MK vs DDD and MK vs zard MU's? the mu character chart suggests that they are both slightly in MK's favor but i know that the chart can sometimes be wrong. also if anyone understands these MU's then any details as to how it should be played and what to watch out for/ stages to pick or ban would be incredibly useful.

both of these MU's are bad for roy and since theres a good player in my scene who plays pretty much all the heavies i need an answer for DDD and zard. i imagine that MK could be that answer but if i dont understand the MU then im bound to get bodied regardless.
 

GuruKid

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I don't know the Zard MU well enough to comment on that but against DDD it's fairly important to stay grounded as MK since he's better than you in the air but you're fairly better on the ground. A big mistake I often see with MK's is to carelessly jump and use aerial approaches rather than stay grounded; this is normally not very optimal but you especially want to avoid that against someone like Dedede. He has great anti-airs, can juggle MK well and it's incredibly tough to recover against him, so keep close to the ground and play it marth-style with dash-dancing to get in a dtilt or grab.

Although we normally can't swat projectiles away we can do so against his waddle dees because they have a hurtbox so you don't have to respect that projectile as much as other normal ones.

Hope this helps.
 

_Chrome

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I used to be a Charizard main, so I can give you some pointers on the MU, even though I've never played it myself. Charizard isn't as fast as you are, if only marginally so, but you need to abuse that. You're a lot smaller than him and you have an inherent disjoint in you sword. Against fat characters with MK you're gonna win the neutral game, but you have to be guarded and you have to work hard. Don't get caught!!! Like against Dedede, DK, and Ganondorf you're gonna want to keep dash-dancing a la Marth and play super cautious because if you get caught you're done-zo, though less so in this case since Zard's punishes aren't as devastating as the former three heavies.

Charizard will want to play the MU a la Marth as well; dash-dancing with well-spaced dtilts and ftilts which have good range and come out quickly, but he'll also probably throw out some rar nairs and rar bairs too. Heavy-weights can challenge you. The nature of MK's moves are that you're saying "you'll be within the range of my sword on this specific frame", since almost all of his moves have 1-frame hitboxes save the multi-hits and his nair. Don't play braindead because you'll die (like I already said).

Each character wants to be below the other theoretically, with MK's never-ending uair juggles and Charaizard's "you're probably gonna die" uair elevator combos. If anyone has any other advice post it here or correct me where I'm wrong.
 

Kulty

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Hi guys,

I'm interested in learning:metaknight:and:ganondorf:in PM. I just wonder that as MK, what are some MUs that I should mainly be careful of or that MK mains have a hard time dealing with? I'm new to MK, so I'm trying to learn him. Thanks.
 

DawnClutch

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Hi guys,

I'm interested in learning:metaknight:and:ganondorf:in PM. I just wonder that as MK, what are some MUs that I should mainly be careful of or that MK mains have a hard time dealing with? I'm new to MK, so I'm trying to learn him. Thanks.
I'd say heavy floaties. He doesn't have particularly losing matchups. Personally, I don't think he loses to any single fast faller except maybe fox, and he might go even with falco. Characters like Mewtwo, Charizard, Samus—those characters are the ones to watch out for. If you're thinking about picking up Ganon he actually might cover some of Meta Knight's harder matchups pretty well.
 
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Kulty

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I'd say heavy floaties. He doesn't have particularly losing matchups. Personally, I don't think he loses to any single fast faller except maybe fox, and he might go even with falco. Characters like Mewtwo, Charizard, Samus—those characters are the ones to watch out for. If you're thinking about picking up Ganon he actually might cover some of Meta Knight's harder matchups pretty well.
Oh really? I didn't think that Ganondorf would help some MK's harder MUs. Who can you think of characters that Ganon can help?
 

_Chrome

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If you're looking to learn how to Meta Knight, check out the video thread Lawn Chair Lawn Chair made a while back. It teaches you everything you'll need to know in order to learn the character asap if you have no idea what to do. It helped me, so it'll help you!!
 

DawnClutch

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Oh really? I didn't think that Ganondorf would help some MK's harder MUs. Who can you think of characters that Ganon can help?
Particularly the heavier floaties, like Samus, maybe Charizard? Not sure. I heard Ganon gets a lot of free stuff/has good matchups on floaties. I could be wrong though.
 
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_Chrome

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Charizard wins the neutral game pretty hard against Ganon, but is pretty much guaranteed death if he's caught. Also, I've been meaning to ask what are we supposed to do against Wario?
 

DawnClutch

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Charizard wins the neutral game pretty hard against Ganon, but is pretty much guaranteed death if he's caught. Also, I've been meaning to ask what are we supposed to do against Wario?
From the good Wario's I've played, the only thing that really seemed annoying was the side-b off of tech reads. Wario's side-b kills MK super early off the side. Especially when you're off stage and the Wario decides to chase after you with it. I think both characters can punish each other super hard. However, I think Meta Knight might have a stronger punish game. Especially off stage. Wario's recovery isn't the greatest, so maybe in neutral focus more on just trying to get the Wario off stage and maximize your punish game off stage. Grab ledge and just use invincible nair. Maybe let the Wario even recover on stage and punish it with an instant reverse down-b (this just takes practice). In neutral, Meta Knight also has range advantage. Utilize Meta Knight's dash dance to go for grabs and just poke at him until you can find an opening to start a combo, and just extend on that as far as you can, if not get them off stage and finish off with edge-guards.
 

DawnClutch

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What kind of stages should we go for?
Against Wario, I would say longer sides with maybe shorter ceilings. PS2 might be a good neutral. Maybe even delfino to give you room to run around and dash dance. Stages also depend a lot on play style. For me personally, I'm very aggressive and like to put a lot of pressure, so I go for smaller stages. Against a character I know that has an advantage with narrow sides however, I'll consider PS2 or delfino.
 

Lawn Chair

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Don't have time to get into right now, my MU experience is pretty top tier. Practice partner that I doubled with was a Wario main and I was able to beat Jreed bad in my prime. MK tech chases wario bad and can chaingrab (Not sure about the chaingrab anymore since they changed the downthrow) Edgeguarding is easy and very linear. Juggled like ****. MU is heavily in MKs favor
 

DawnClutch

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Don't have time to get into right now, my MU experience is pretty top tier. Practice partner that I doubled with was a Wario main and I was able to beat Jreed bad in my prime. MK tech chases wario bad and can chaingrab (Not sure about the chaingrab anymore since they changed the downthrow) Edgeguarding is easy and very linear. Juggled like ****. MU is heavily in MKs favor
Whoops, I read that completely wrong. I thought you were saying MK loses to Wario, I was confused for a sec. Haha, yea. I agree.
 

Taytertot

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so i did ask about the zard and D3 mu's before and got a lot of useful info but im wondering if anyone knows so good videos that showcase the mu well on both ends so i can get a feel for the pacing etc. Also curious about the DK mu in terms of theorycraft as well as good videos if any.

i might use link for these mu's if i feel uncomfortable or if link has a more favorable mu against them.
 

_Chrome

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For DK a really good video is Holy vs Fire at Summit 2015. From a theorycrafting perspective most people think MK should destroy DK but in reality, DK's tilts are super good against MK if he doesn't space optimally... when MK's game becomes optimized it should become much better against DK but for the time being I can't recall seeing a MK beat a DK besides myself (I'm not trying to sound self-inflated). If you're one of the MKs that fishes for a bunch of uairs (like Holy and many, many others) I don't think that's the optimal way to play against a character with such good range like DK. (Nor in general, but keep in mind I'm no expert with the character: I picked him up during August of this year and have improved drastically with him, and as a player over this time period despite being semi-retired, LOL). I would stick to normal MK stuff but please, please, please, play guarded and cautious against DK. I don't wanna see another MK get rekt by DK.

It's a hard MU, but a winning one nonetheless.

MK vs DK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYrOQCDvMpQ

MK vs D3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lLZVqpEHF0
 
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Taytertot

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For DK a really good video is Holy vs Fire at Summit 2015. From a theorycrafting perspective most people think MK should destroy DK but in reality, DK's tilts are super good against MK if he doesn't space optimally... when MK's game becomes optimized it should become much better against DK but for the time being I can't recall seeing a MK beat a DK besides myself (I'm not trying to sound self-inflated). If you're one of the MKs that fishes for a bunch of uairs (like Holy and many, many others) I don't think that's the optimal way to play against a character with such good range like DK. (Nor in general, but keep in mind I'm no expert with the character: I picked him up during August of this year and have improved drastically with him, and as a player over this time period despite being semi-retired, LOL). I would stick to normal MK stuff but please, please, please, play guarded and cautious against DK. I don't wanna see another MK get rekt by DK.

It's a hard MU, but a winning one nonetheless.

MK vs DK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYrOQCDvMpQ

MK vs D3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lLZVqpEHF0
thanks, id say that MK is a secondary for me that i usually play in doubles but i dont find myself fishing for uairs, i only use uair when i already have my opponent above me. otherwise id say my game plan is pretty grounded focusing on DD, dtilt, ftilt and SH nair/platform drop nair and i guess a little bit of fair. the rest of his moveset is use as mixups and guaranteed punishes or edgeguards.

i'll check these videos out soon.
 

Zarkdion

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Complete MK Newb here. My skimming over this thread has told me that Meta Knight can't counter projectiles for ****. With that in mind, what should I be doing against Ness in neutral? I know my training buddy likes to throw out mid-range grounded PKF and follow up with a full-hop (setting up either for fair, nair, or another PKF). And in the past I have felt shut down by this setup. What do?
 

Taytertot

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Complete MK Newb here. My skimming over this thread has told me that Meta Knight can't counter projectiles for ****. With that in mind, what should I be doing against Ness in neutral? I know my training buddy likes to throw out mid-range grounded PKF and follow up with a full-hop (setting up either for fair, nair, or another PKF). And in the past I have felt shut down by this setup. What do?
glad youre likin MK. so PKF is only semi safe for ness to throw out when at max range if hes on the ground because MK can just jump over it and punish with aerials otherwise. so first i think itd be important to have a strong understanding of the range that PKF hits at so that you are aware of when you are entering a zone where your practice partner is going to start looking to use it.

If you are near the max range and you see him throw it out then dash dance back to reset neutral (look for the animation where ness pulls back slightly to throw the PKF and react as fast as possible).
you could also short hop over it, FF and then immediately do a very short dash and SHFFL nair to try to stuff out any attempts on ness' part to aggressively pressure you as you approach.

If you short hop over PKF and then FF and ness full hops for one of those three options try to dash slightly behind ness and go for a short hop bair or dash dance below and and slightly behind him to try and bait something out and punish.

Although if any other MK mains have better strategies or point out something ive missed in a situation then listen to them because MK is only a secondary for me and i am by no means as well versed in how to play MK as most of the others in the MK boards. But i hope that this helps and let me know if you have any questions or i wrote something in a confusing manner (im a terrible writer).
 
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Zarkdion

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But i hope that this helps and let me know if you have any questions or i wrote something in a confusing manner (im a terrible writer).
You are fine, dude. It was easy to visualize the counterplay. In fact, this helps a lot. I think this calls for a wee(gee) bit of Ness lab time. To the Great Blue Mammal!
 

_Chrome

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If you know the Ness is going to consistently try and PKF you, use MK's supreme dash dance to bait it out and you can react to it by jumping over it and nairing him or by even rolling towards Ness and avoiding the PKF. Ness' grounded PKF is very punishable if it doesn't hit so keep that in mind. Also, MK does struggle against projectiles but if you play smartly you shouldn't have too many problems with them except against a missile camping Samus, a blaster camping and whip zoning Zero Suit Samus, or perhaps Wolf's blaster, but I think his weakness to projectiles is slightly overstated outside of those examples. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. :)
 

DawnClutch

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One other thing: Edgeguarding a recovering Ness. What do?
Go after him. I'm pretty aggressive and if I can get to him faster than he can hit himself with PK thunder I always take the chance. I pretty much just Nair or fair him out of it. If you want to play more safe, you can grab ledge and force him to recover on stage, then from ledge do a reverse dimensional cape attack on to the stage and send him flying back off the stage again.

Example:
 
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Zarkdion

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Is that just a B-reverse or is that something special?
edit: The above statement kinda proves why I want that guide of yours so badly :p
 
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DawnClutch

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Mar 12, 2015
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Is that just a B-reverse or is that something special?
edit: The above statement kinda proves why I want that guide of yours so badly :p
Just attacking out of IDC a little differently. Yea, I explain it a lot better in my guide.
 

_Chrome

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I played against Ness a lot tonight. Nairing him is generally a really good option for edgeguarding in general, and it's pretty dang safe.
 

Tarul

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Jan 31, 2015
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My smash circle has a Ness and 2 MKs, so I see this matchup a lot.

If you're going out to aggressively to hit Ness before he up-bs, make sure that you can ACTUALLY reach him and hit him. His recovery has invincibility frames on frames 1-7, which means he's going to win the trade and give you a solid 25%. Also, since you're MK and super light, there's a reasonable chance that you might die from it. That said, if you can reach him, do it, because it's a pretty free edgeguard if you can. You can chain fairs, to pseudo-wall-of-pain him off the side to a bad position, bair to keep launching him away, or just nair if you think it'll kill/you believe you can make it back to stage before he gets another chance to up-b.

If you can't reach him before he up-b's, then it really depends on if he's above or below the stage.

If he's below the stage, just nair onto stage. His up-b is negatively disjointed, so you'll beat it even if you lose your invincibility (try and keep it though lol)

If he's above the stage, try and position yourself to somewhere around the end of his up-b. This way, you can punish him with a smash attack (down-smash to continue the edgeguard is probably best) if he goes for the long option, and you can react to his other angles with an aerial or d-smash from run. Remember, Ness has 20 frames of endlag, so you can punish him right when he's about to land.

Just avoid charging a smash attack preemptively while he's falling. Ness has some pretty crazy aerial drift, so it's unlikely you'll be able to get too much of a charge.
 
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Tarul

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Does anyone have any thoughts on the Sheik v Metaknight matchup?

I used to think that it was kinda bad (-2) for Sheik because of her lack of ways to deal with d-tilt, but now I'm starting to lean towards (-1) because of how badly MK gets punished and the fact that his attacks are transcendent (trades generally go in favor of Sheik).

Aerial needles and standing needles seem to be great ways to to get grabs and force approaches, and shielding can lead to grabs off d-tilt if spaced properly, or nairs (have to be near frame-perfect, though).

Bair seems to beat MK's recovery options if it's out there early. MK's safest recovery seems to be reverse up-b onto stage (?), but the rest of his recoveries seem punishable.

Could you guys give me your thoughts from the MK side?
 
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