MK Matchup's 3.6

[Boiko]

I have my opinion and I'm willing to listen to insight from "more experienced" players, since I don't know all the kinks of this character yet, but MK-Ganon as of today is NOT +2 for MK in MY OPINION. I can see +1 happening, and +0 being unlikely.

Are you saying +2 as 60:40 or 70:30? I think that's it's generally agreed that the MU is 6:4. How that translates to +2/4/whatever is beyond me because everyone has a different definition of it.

 

[Narelex]

Are you saying +2 as 60:40 or 70:30? I think that's it's generally agreed that the MU is 6:4. How that translates to +2/4/whatever is beyond me because everyone has a different definition of it.

Updated front post to reflect this fact, usually not a fan of using 55/45 etc on MU's since we don't know for sure yet and ratios always sound so final. But if it was confusing people then I'm okay putting them at the front.

strictly speaking you're correct, but being a top player and having years worth of experience can certainly help your insight. it can also hurt your insight too, depending how you handle observation bias. after playing sheik vs strongbads MK, its readily apparent that MKs dashdance is insane and will probably be stifling to deal with across the MU spread. MKs DD was already quite good before his weight and dtilt buffs, so this really shouldnt surprise anyone. same for marth, as soon as MK doesnt run into pivot grabs it gets way harder for marth.

Let me know how the MU feels after playing with your fixed throw.

 

[Missile]

Are you saying +2 as 60:40 or 70:30? I think that's it's generally agreed that the MU is 6:4. How that translates to +2/4/whatever is beyond me because everyone has a different definition of it.

That's what this all started as. As I understand, 60:40 is +1 which is what the matchup feels like to me playing against my friend who's been a Ganon main (and is one of the best Ganons on the Island) for years. Obviously MK has the upper hand but it's a very volatile matchup is what I'm trying to say.

 

[Boiko]

That's what this all started as. As I understand, 60:40 is +1 which is what the matchup feels like to me playing against my friend who's been a Ganon main (and is one of the best Ganons on the Island) for years. Obviously MK has the upper hand but it's a very volatile matchup is what I'm trying to say.

What island?
I agree with you, +1 is generally 60:40, but to keep it clear I just write it out as 60:40.

 

[Narelex]

What island?
I agree with you, +1 is generally 60:40, but to keep it clear I just write it out as 60:40.

If that's the case then I messed up. My b.

I did update the front post with my scale. So it should be less confusing.

 

[Missile]

What island?
I agree with you, +1 is generally 60:40, but to keep it clear I just write it out as 60:40.

Puerto Rico.

If that's the case then I messed up. My b.
I did update the front post with my scale. So it should be less confusing.

Awesome!

 

[Jechtire]

What island?
I agree with you, +1 is generally 60:40, but to keep it clear I just write it out as 60:40.

metaknight dittos are dumb

100 dollar ditto at the lab

 

[KarmaMN]

Posting Guide and MU thread for this

 

[Narelex]

Hope to hear some players thoughts after Paragon.

 

[Shokio]

Olimar is 60/40.

 

[Narelex]

Olimar is 60/40.

Edited chart to reflect this. I'll trust your judgement since you have the most relevant exp in it.

 

[~Frozen~]

Here's my thoughts on Mewtwo-MK:

I'll break it up into parts:

Neutral: MK's usual DD -> Dtilt game works, just be careful of misspacing it because CC grab hurts. A solid option Mewtwo has to throw out a long, quick, somwhat, powerful hitbox is Ftilt, which can kinda mess up MK's footsies if he gets too close. Just be aware of the move is all. If the Mewtwo is bad he'll try to UpB approach; stuff it easily with Nair. Shadow Ball should be handled by Shield -> WD OoS as MK can't clank them, Nair OoS if Mewtwo tries to follow up behind it. This part of the MU generally favors MK, IMO.

Punish: Mewtwo can Uthrow -> Followup on MK from ~0-50% (Follow up varies, usually either TeleFair -> followup or only a TeleUair as you approach 50). HC Fair strings are pretty brutal on MK due to his physics, you can get like 3-4 pretty reliably if you land one off a Dtilt at low %'s. Dthrow can tech chase MK past the 0-50 window for Uthrow and can abuse MK's poor tech rolls.
On MK's side, Uair chains are pretty easy on Mewtwo because of his size and low fall speed, and UpB can kill him pretty early. MK can also Uthrow -> IDC Mewtwo from about 30-70% to tack on some solid damage off a throw. Before then, Dthrow tech chases are your only option, but Mewtwo has a very good tech roll so this can be difficult. (@ Narelex brought up that SideB is a pretty useful tech chase tool even against Mewtwo's tech rolls as long as you get a read, and it pops him up nicely for juggles.) Overall, I feel the punish game favors Mewtwo.

Offstage: Both characters have a lot of tools to edgeguard the other. MK should generally try to hold ledge and punish Mewtwo's UpB with Nair (hold ledge if you think he'll try to be sneaky and fake you out, use the first few recovery attempts to scout the Mewtwo's habits), while Mewtwo can chase MK pretty much anywhere thanks to MK's poor air speed, and Bair him into the abyss. This part seems about even, but might favor Mewtwo slightly.

Overall while I think Mewtwo edges MK out in punishes and edgeguarding slightly, the neutral is very important and that's where MK shines brightest. A mistake in spacing is costly, choose your engagements wisely!

Ratio: 50-50 (0)

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

So you all have Samus beating MK, I don't understand this, MK should win the neutral for the most part and has a stupidly good punishgame on Samus, if you watch Chevy vs Plup at Paragon, aside from the fact that Plup is way better than Chevy, you can see how easily MK can weave through missiles to start up an absolutely brutal punish game, and MK even edgeguards Samus well.
To me the matchup seems about 55-45 in MK's favour, why do you have otherwise?

 

[Narelex]

So you all have Samus beating MK, I don't understand this, MK should win the neutral for the most part and has a stupidly good punishgame on Samus, if you watch Chevy vs Plup at Paragon, aside from the fact that Plup is way better than Chevy, you can see how easily MK can weave through missiles to start up an absolutely brutal punish game, and MK even edgeguards Samus well.
To me the matchup seems about 55-45 in MK's favour, why do you have otherwise?

Samus is one of the MU's I have yet to talk to the top players for so you'll have to give me some time. List is not fully up to date yet. I'll post when I've talked to someone.

 

[Boiko]

So you all have Samus beating MK, I don't understand this, MK should win the neutral for the most part and has a stupidly good punishgame on Samus, if you watch Chevy vs Plup at Paragon, aside from the fact that Plup is way better than Chevy, you can see how easily MK can weave through missiles to start up an absolutely brutal punish game, and MK even edgeguards Samus well.
To me the matchup seems about 55-45 in MK's favour, why do you have otherwise?

It's not about setting up missile walls. Meta Knight has a really hard time getting anything started on Samus due to the nature of her CC in conjunction with her normals. Setting up a missile wall when MK is in a position to reach Samus and punish the lag is just poor play. I didn't watch the set, btw, so I'm not downplaying Chevy.

Edit: Oops, hit enter early, LOL.

Samus is really good at challenging pokes with her own pokes. That's what she does in the Marth MU. I'll write more about it later.

 

[Tarul]

Anyone got any tips on the Sheik vs. Metaknight matchup? I played EclipseKirby recently (went to game 3, last stock), but lost because I didn't know how to deal entirely well against MK's neutral and optimally edgeguard.

1. To what percentage is CC effective against MK?
2. How do you edgeguard side-b?

 

[Narelex]

Anyone got any tips on the Sheik vs. Metaknight matchup? I played EclipseKirby recently (went to game 3, last stock), but lost because I didn't know how to deal entirely well against MK's neutral and optimally edgeguard.

1. To what percentage is CC effective against MK?
2. How do you edgeguard side-b?

I have yet to test exact %'s that CC works on MK so I'm afraid I can't help you there.

An important thing to note about MK's recovery is that if he is hit out of any special move while Mid-air he will lose all jumps. Side-b can be CCed if he's trying to drill onstage or shielded. It has some decent landing lag so its not too hard to punish afterwards.

If he's trying for the ledge, needles to snipe him or Bairs to stuff his approach tend to be the most effective options against it.

MK is a tricky MU for Sheik. The main things he'll be using in neutral are his Dtilt/Ftilt and grabs. Ftilt can be CCed pretty well but Dtilt will only lose to "true CC" which is where you're in the crouch animation prior to being hit. SDI down tends to lead to you slamming into the ground and eating more Dtilts until you stop holding down or you manage to tech away.

 

[ConeZ]

So haven't been very active on this board, as I have been trying to focus on actually bettering myself at the game as opposed to figuring out MU spreads. xD

BUT I was wondering if there have been any developments in the Lucas matchup? One of the guys I practice with plays him ,and I just don't understand wat do xD
We go about even, but sometimes, I just get bodied and I don't know why I am getting bodied bc I don't understand Lucas. HALP

 

[Narelex]

So haven't been very active on this board, as I have been trying to focus on actually bettering myself at the game as opposed to figuring out MU spreads. xD

BUT I was wondering if there have been any developments in the Lucas matchup? One of the guys I practice with plays him ,and I just don't understand wat do xD
We go about even, but sometimes, I just get bodied and I don't know why I am getting bodied bc I don't understand Lucas. HALP

Tech chase him until he cries. Nair also beats all his recovery options. This is a bit of a vague question though, without footage or more detail we can`t really help.

 

[Phubs]

Does Nair really beat pk thunder 2?

 

[ConeZ]

Tech chase him until he cries. Nair also beats all his recovery options. This is a bit of a vague question though, without footage or more detail we can`t really help.

Eh, I don't really care about my personal stuff. I don't have anything to record with atm anyways. I just wanted to know what I was supposed to do xD

 

[Lawn Chair]

Pretty sure that MK has uthrow into ff uair at around 10ish%.

Lucas doesn't have great landing options and if you are patient and bait out a b reverse you should always be able to pop him up with another move or grab his landing.

The goal of fighting Lucas is to force him offstage in a position where he can not tether back to the stage, forcing his up-b. This is most certainly his worst position to be in. The lag from landing on stage or stalling in the air (after the full length of the up-b has played out) he is open to big punishes and long strings and combos that almost always ends in a lost stock.

 

[D e l t a]

Since 3.02, this MU has been pretty much dead even, 50/50. Not much has changed with their neutral game / punish game and recoveries are essentially the same, if not buffed from 3.02. As K9 said from an interview post-tourney, it's a lot of work on metaknight's side. The matchup is stressful at high level (less so in 3.6 due to Lucas magnet nerfs). Patience will be a blessing.

Funny enough this video from one of our locals was recorded recently. It gives a decent representation of how the matchup is played.

- In neutral, MK should be looking to punish PKF by powershields tilts, dash attack, and Nair. I don't believe Fair cuts thru PKF. MK can convert tech chases into some move that forces Lucas offstage such as Nair, Dsmash, DownB (on a read/combo). Dthrow in 3.6 always forcing knockdown is a great buff.
- A lot of Lucas' moves can be CC'd and MK's Dtilt is a perfect punish move. Be aware of his Dair (you want to SDI to the side or up and tech). His other attacks can be SDI'd away and most attacks you want to DI BEHIND Lucas. His down throw, magnet, Uair, and Dair especially should be DI'd slightly behind and up.
- Shielding and being unsafe with defensive maneuvers is a bad idea. Lucas has great burst movement (quick run speed & DACUS) in addition to PKF. His magnet and aerial attacks are amazing pressure tools that convert easily on MK. I've noticed that MK's shield gets shield poked easier than other characters and diminishes quickly.
- Lucas will be looking for grabs and conversions from his aerials and PKF. Do your best to not get juggled as Lucas combos MK better with Uairs compared to Fair strings that send you across the stage (MK is at a weird combo weight IMO).
- If you're patient enough, you can catch Lucas slipping in neutral and beginning to fish for attacks to land. This is how the MU should be played

~~

- MK's punish game relies on tech chasing and getting Uair strings. Lucas is lightweight and can die easily if you get a nice meaty hit. Be extremely patient and wait for your opportunity. PKF is about -12 on shield which is equivalent to someone dash attacking you.
- Respect magnet and Nair on shield but know you can shield grab Fair, Dair and Bair. Shield grabs can change momentum against Lucas instantly.
- Punish tether by rising Nair's long lasting hitbox or force the ledge hop then Dair or Bair when he's vulnerable.
-His UpB has 20 frames of special landing lag. Don't attempt to challenge Lucas off-stage unless you're 100% sure your Fair / Nair will connect before PKT2. PKT1 can't be gimped like Ness' PKT1. PKT2 isn't nearly as deadly and can be SDI'd out of the hitboxes easily. Most Lucas' are terrible at sweet spotting so you can throw a Down / Forward smash out if they're aimed at the ledge / ground or catch them before landing with a Nair. If they do happen to land, go for a grab and throw them off-stage again or wrack up damage by Dthrow tech chasing. Lucas players will attempt to retreat back towards ledge and avoid a punish or they will mix up their landings by drifting back. Just be aware of this.

- Lucas will constantly throw out hitboxes and be the aggressor. If they have safe aggression, there's little MK can do. Just know that your tilts out range Lucas and can keep up with his ground speed if your reactions are fast enough.
- Realize how the Lucas player likes to combo and anticipate which move is coming next so you can DI properly. Bad DI vs Lucas will lead to longer drawn out combos and easier followups that can lead to stocks being lost faster. Dthrow -> Bair will kill 10-30% sooner than an upthrow, Dthrow/Dair -> Upsmash kills around 80-100%, etc.

 

[D e l t a]

ConeZ I hope I was able to solve most of your uncertainty about the character. If you have any specific questions, feel free to post them in the Lucas forums here and myself or someone else will be happy to help you out. Many other threads there have discussed Lucas in detail and my guide on the character gives an idea of how the character is played. If you're unsure where to start, shoot me a message and I can do my best to point you in the correct direction

This applies to anybody. I know the most about Lucas and a lot about smash so don't hesitate to ask me anything.

 

[Jolteon]

Anyone got any tips on the Sheik vs. Metaknight matchup? I played EclipseKirby recently (went to game 3, last stock), but lost because I didn't know how to deal entirely well against MK's neutral and optimally edgeguard.

1. To what percentage is CC effective against MK?
2. How do you edgeguard side-b?

I played this MU a lot over the course of a month while I stayed in Socal since I don't like MK dittos at all, MK wins but not nearly as bad as I first thought. It's probably still her worst MU but it feels like a 4:6 at worst to me (go figure, Sheik's MU spread is pretty good lol). MK wins neutral and has insane punishes on Sheik (she should ideally be dead when she is either above MK or off-stage), but Sheik also punishes him HARD and that's the advantage you really need to push against him to win.

Neutral:

MK has one of the best DDs in the game and Sheik has to respect that a lot since, while her run speed is good her actual DD is meh, so you'll have to contend it by cornering him via basic movement, safe pressure via her ac+shfll fair/spaced shffl bair/fading ac nairs, sh needles and ftilt, and passive threatening of his movement with her Needles. Good MKs will just shield Needles mid-DD and WD oos to reset back to neutral, but with her cancel options she can still use them to threaten MK and his space. When he's at the corner his DD options are far worse and you just limit his options in general, makes it a lot easier to space outside of his stuff and force a bad option from him to punish.

If you can get away with being greedy at boost grabbing MK (e.g. they approach with shield, don't respect her boost grab, or shield in the corner too much) then just do it, she gets so much off of a grab on him and having a burst movement option that potent is something that they'll have to learn to respect and/or fear. WD back ftilt is good if MK over commits, but that's pretty standard for Sheik. The neutral game is pretty similar to Sheik vs Marth, except MK gets more reward from his dtilt in most scenarios and he can also use late Nair to hit Sheik while she's in the corner (which beats both shield/CC).

Punishing MK:

His tech roll sucks, his fall speed is high enough so that bthrowing at the edge will force a tech situation on DI away or regrab on DI in, and his get-up options aren't anything to write home about, so tech chasing him is really strong. At higher %s you can either convert a tech chase into DA -> slap -> edge guard, which works on his weight class (semi-FF'er), or fthrow him off stage for a free edge guard. Dash attack, dairs, tilts, uairs etc. etc. all work extremely well, as they do on other faster falling characters. Spaced bairs are really good if you have to drop a combo and MK is still above you, beats out basically anything he can do to land and puts him off stage.

Sheik's edge guards are phenomenal on MK, it's really easy to burn his jumps and secure kills because Sheik's bair is huge and if you intercept him mid recovery move he loses them all. If he goes high, wall him out with bair, if he recovers at stage height then ledge hop bair or hover slightly below the edge -> DJ bair -> grab ledge, if he uses a recovery move then follow him and challenge it with Bair (ledge invinc makes this easier but it works anyway). If he recovers low or tries to carefully approach the ledge with his jumps to sweetspot with a multi jump, you can jump out -> RNC -> wait -> Bair. The icing is that all of his recovery moves have a good amount of landing lag on them so you can just land and bthrow him back off stage if you screw up a Bair edge guard since you should be actively threatening the edge at all times if he can reach it. Obviously, at any point you can secure an off-stage slap instead of Bair, then do so, but Bairing is edge guarding 101 vs him.

The only time you really have to do something except for Bair is against his reverse shuttle loop, you can beat that with ledge hop Nair (providing you don't do it too late so it sends him on stage) or just CC it and put him off stage again.

Also make sure to shoot a **** ton of Needles at him if he recovers either below the stage or at stage height, MK's recovery is so heavily dependent on his jumps that sniping him out of each one means a lot. tl;dr bair and needles>recovering MK.

 

[D e l t a]

Comparing MK to Marth, the only difference I see is better speed (faster aerials and dash speed with slightly easier time converting into kills via UpB, Nair, and Dsmash). How does MK trump Sheik while Marth v Sheik is even at best?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

For one thing, MK punishes Shiek way harder than Marth does.

 

[D e l t a]

Is it primarily having a slightly better combo game and being able to convert into kills better? The only hindering side of Marth I see is that he either kills at 70 or 170.

 

[Jolteon]

Comparing MK to Marth, the only difference I see is better speed (faster aerials and dash speed with slightly easier time converting into kills via UpB, Nair, and Dsmash). How does MK trump Sheik while Marth v Sheik is even at best?

Sheik gets very favourable rewards from trading with Marth in the air and/or punishing his aerial lag+hangtime with boost grabs/dash attacks, both of which don't really apply to MK because of his Nair and his low cooldown+physics respectively, he also converts way harder off of dtilt (either a tech chase vs CC or dtilt -> grab/uair on launcher dtilt) than Marth does. And yeah, while it's not as important as the other reasons, MK just punishes her harder. Easier juggles, much better edge guard options, better tech chasing and more options to put Sheik off stage. He lacks Marth uthrow but still edges out overall imo.

 

[D e l t a]

Hm, interesting. Thanks for the knowledge drop!

 

[_Chrome]

Hey everyone! I would like to know how the MK-Roy, -Pit, and -Snake match-ups go. I have near zero experience with them and have had to play against those characters in my region. Does anyone have any tips or tricks worth sharing?

 

[Narelex]

Hey everyone! I would like to know how the MK-Roy, -Pit, and -Snake match-ups go. I have near zero experience with them and have had to play against those characters in my region. Does anyone have any tips or tricks worth sharing?

Tends to play similarly to fighting a Marth. However the crucial difference is that he has an extremely solid combo starter out of CC through his Dtilt. it's going to be a dashdance war with both sides poking with tilts and fishing for grabs. Lot of Dtilts are going to be occurring, he has more range on most of his moves but we have more speed.

Due to their semi-fastfaller nature and light weight. The combo's are fairly disgusting between the two. Getting Roy into Upair strings is going to be your primary goal. Off a solid one it can convert to an edgeguard fairly easily. Since Roy's very vulnerable compared to a lot of characters when recovering, you can clip him with just a fair and that will usually finish him. Don't try to challenge the up-b since it has a very meaty hitbox, try to go out and reach him while he's boosting with side-b's.

For your own recovery make sure to mix it up as often as possible, long ranging Ftilt can pop you out and eat your jumps if you're not careful. Fsmash is a very scary option to have to worry about. Most Roy's try not to go too far out since their own recovery is very fragile, they tend to stand onstage or grab the ledge.

Instant Dimensional Cape is a solid whiff punish the strong KB can easily put him offstage at mid%'s. Upsmash is another that will lead to combo's, hefty endlag can make it risky if whiffed. Always opt to toss Roy offstage instead of continuing a tech chase if possible. You can end some stocks incredibly early if you catch him with an aerial.

If Roy grabs you he will likely get a solid techchase started with Fthrow/Bthrow or start a combo at lower %'s with an upthrow. Be wary of His fsmash while being tech chased since our techroll isn't the best.

TLDR
Don't get grabbed, Juggle him, Gimp him, Dashdance/Dtilt wars.

 

[Taytertot]

how do you guys feel about MK as a doubles character? ive been picking him up for doubles because i dont feel like roy is very good in doubles and ganon is my only true secondary and hes a questionable doubles character whos only good if he has a partner who has a solid approach game. all my other characters arent nearly as flushed out but ive been dabbling more and more with MK especially in doubles.

i feel like MK could potential be really good in doubles since hes got great edgeguards, aerials, tech chases, dash speed, quick pokes and some solid kill moves that are much easier to land in doubles. ive been doing doubles with a friend whos been going falcon and it seems to be working out but i feel my lack of experience as an MK player has been an issue for our doubles game so im curious what advice i can get on using him in doubles (and if anyone has thoughts on how to be optimally synergistic with falcon that would also be greatly appreciated)

 

[_Chrome]

how do you guys feel about MK as a doubles character? ive been picking him up for doubles because i dont feel like roy is very good in doubles and ganon is my only true secondary and hes a questionable doubles character whos only good if he has a partner who has a solid approach game. all my other characters arent nearly as flushed out but ive been dabbling more and more with MK especially in doubles.

i feel like MK could potential be really good in doubles since hes got great edgeguards, aerials, tech chases, dash speed, quick pokes and some solid kill moves that are much easier to land in doubles. ive been doing doubles with a friend whos been going falcon and it seems to be working out but i feel my lack of experience as an MK player has been an issue for our doubles game so im curious what advice i can get on using him in doubles (and if anyone has thoughts on how to be optimally synergistic with falcon that would also be greatly appreciated)

I've found Meta Knight in doubles is really solid, about as effective as he in singles. The thing about Meta Knight is that he has the move-set and movement to allow him to play a variety of different styles (for example, aggressive or passive, offensive or defensive) depending on the match-up as well as giving the player the powerful ability to switch styles mid-match/mid-game.

Part of the reason he is so good in doubles is that he can land stray hits on opponents much easier: either leading into a combo or edge guard at low percents, or a kill at higher percents. This can be easily done with moves such as his nair or dsmash.

If you're pairing with Falcon, I would recommend that you act as a stock holder: Falcon doesn't live too long in singles or doubles (for obvious reasons) and Meta Knight has the ability to last longer in doubles since people sometimes drop their edge guards: whether it be because your partner can help you out or they lose focus. Falcon and MK would be a very good team because they're both fast and can net kills early. I haven't felt disadvantaged by him yet except when playing against a troublesome Roy and a Fox. If you have any further questions feel free to ask.

 

[Taytertot]

I've found Meta Knight in doubles is really solid, about as effective as he in singles. The thing about Meta Knight is that he has the move-set and movement to allow him to play a variety of different styles (for example, aggressive or passive, offensive or defensive) depending on the match-up as well as giving the player the powerful ability to switch styles mid-match/mid-game.

Part of the reason he is so good in doubles is that he can land stray hits on opponents much easier: either leading into a combo or edge guard at low percents, or a kill at higher percents. This can be easily done with moves such as his nair or dsmash.

If you're pairing with Falcon, I would recommend that you act as a stock holder: Falcon doesn't live too long in singles or doubles (for obvious reasons) and Meta Knight has the ability to last longer in doubles since people sometimes drop their edge guards: whether it be because your partner can help you out or they lose focus. Falcon and MK would be a very good team because they're both fast and can net kills early. I haven't felt disadvantaged by him yet except when playing against a troublesome Roy and a Fox. If you have any further questions feel free to ask.

sweet thank you! do you think that i should be the aggressor or should falcon initiate and MK follow up to keep falcon safe from punishes? there is a local PM doubles tourney coming up next friday and most of the people playing are gonna be melee players who dabble in PM so most of them will be playing melee top tiers, though there is an ivy player, a lucas player and a yoshi/bowser player.

should i be generally playing more passive with falcon on my team or more aggressive?

what kind of doubles team would you imagine would be a problem for MK falcon? im guessing a sheik and someone else could be an issue since sheik can crap on falcon and if the other character teaming with sheik is good vs MK thatd be rough.

 

[_Chrome]

sweet thank you! do you think that i should be the aggressor or should falcon initiate and MK follow up to keep falcon safe from punishes? there is a local PM doubles tourney coming up next friday and most of the people playing are gonna be melee players who dabble in PM so most of them will be playing melee top tiers, though there is an ivy player, a lucas player and a yoshi/bowser player.

should i be generally playing more passive with falcon on my team or more aggressive?

what kind of doubles team would you imagine would be a problem for MK falcon? im guessing a sheik and someone else could be an issue since sheik can crap on falcon and if the other character teaming with sheik is good vs MK thatd be rough.

What I find myself doing in doubles most of the time is I contain one opponent and my partner (who has good chemistry with me) contains the other one. I use Meta Knight to once in a while give my partner unfair advantage by breaking the trend of two 1v1s and by making a quick 2v1 (for about 1-3 seconds).

It depends more on your opponents and your how your partner plays whether you'll want to be aggressive or passive. I mix it up based on this and the grounds that my partner and I understand each very well (which means I can change it up mid game and we'll each be comfortable). Find synergy with your partner. If you know anything about him/her, what do they play like? A Falcon is normally aggressive (even when they play uair and nair heavy) but that doesn't mean you have to be passive. Just make sure you and your partner do not hit each other. Falcon hitting you might mean death, and you hitting him could really be death as well in certain circumstances.

However, if you're comfortable with your partner, I see no reason to be afraid of playing aggressively. I'm really aggressive most of the time [yet somehow I manage to still be the stock holder (maybe my partner is a buster, jk)] and it works really well with my partner who plays a control based style (not necessarily aggressive nor passive: really just incredible patience).

So here's the question then: how are you comfortable playing stylistically, how comfortable are you switching up your play style, and what about you partner? Are you comfortable with him/her, and how do they play?

EDIT: Characters that could give you double trouble are Roy, Fox, and maybe Falco or Wolf. Sheik could be annoying, but I have no problems in that match-up as Meta Knight. Sheik would only be a problem if she limits your space (which is really easily done in doubles: my partner does it very consistently). I think Roy is the worst, but that may just be personal bias since I'm aggressive and his powerful sword says no. Samus and Zero Suit Samus are negative match-ups for Meta Knight, but in doubles Samus is less of an issue since she is more reliant on space than you and ZSS needs space too. In addition, your partner should be able to take care of any ZSS player. ZSS effs up MK on stage (vice versa off-stage), but if I were you I would ask my partner to cover him/her. Overall, MK-Falcon seems like a good doubles pairing.

 

[Taytertot]

What I find myself doing in doubles most of the time is I contain one opponent and my partner (who has good chemistry with me) contains the other one. I use Meta Knight to once in a while give my partner unfair advantage by breaking the trend of two 1v1s and by making a quick 2v1 (for about 1-3 seconds).

It depends more on your opponents and your how your partner plays whether you'll want to be aggressive or passive. I mix it up based on this and the grounds that my partner and I understand each very well (which means I can change it up mid game and we'll each be comfortable). Find synergy with your partner. If you know anything about him/her, what do they play like? A Falcon is normally aggressive (even when they play uair and nair heavy) but that doesn't mean you have to be passive. Just make sure you and your partner do not hit each other. Falcon hitting you might mean death, and you hitting him could really be death as well in certain circumstances.

However, if you're comfortable with your partner, I see no reason to be afraid of playing aggressively. I'm really aggressive most of the time [yet somehow I manage to still be the stock holder (maybe my partner is a buster, jk)] and it works really well with my partner who plays a control based style (not necessarily aggressive nor passive: really just incredible patience).

So here's the question then: how are you comfortable playing stylistically, how comfortable are you switching up your play style, and what about you partner? Are you comfortable with him/her, and how do they play?

EDIT: Characters that could give you double trouble are Roy, Fox, and maybe Falco or Wolf. Sheik could be annoying, but I have no problems in that match-up as Meta Knight. Sheik would only be a problem if she limits your space (which is really easily done in doubles: my partner does it very consistently). I think Roy is the worst, but that may just be personal bias since I'm aggressive and his powerful sword says no. Samus and Zero Suit Samus are negative match-ups for Meta Knight, but in doubles Samus is less of an issue since she is more reliant on space than you and ZSS needs space too. In addition, your partner should be able to take care of any ZSS player. ZSS effs up MK on stage (vice versa off-stage), but if I were you I would ask my partner to cover him/her. Overall, MK-Falcon seems like a good doubles pairing.

id say my partner plays relatively aggressive and i have a tendency to play either aggressively or poke heavy and generally i dont go outside of those 2 styles. my main is roy so im used to playing kinda aggressive or depending on the MU (like luigi vs roy) swatting my opponent away with pokes. i did come from competitive brawl (i mained marth) before i started obsessing over PM so i am used to having to space things from when i played that a lot but i havent found the poke/defense/spacing heavy style that comes with brawl to be that effective in PM and that may be because effective defense strategies in PM/melee are very different from effective defense strategies in brawl. i think all and all i need to improve my awareness of what my friend is doing so that i can give him kill setups and maybe play a somewhat interrupt heavier style so that he can safely get out those knees.

im curious how samus is bad for MK. she cant missile spam nearly as effectively vs him due to how short he is and MK can DD to bait out ftilt etc. and just punish with grab if shes gonna try and CC him. im probably missing something though.

luckily i dont think anyone will be play ZSS. there will be a roy/marth player there as well as other marths and there could definitely be a bunch of fox and falco players due to how melee heavy the scene is here.

 

[_Chrome]

id say my partner plays relatively aggressive and i have a tendency to play either aggressively or poke heavy and generally i dont go outside of those 2 styles. my main is roy so im used to playing kinda aggressive or depending on the MU (like luigi vs roy) swatting my opponent away with pokes. i did come from competitive brawl (i mained marth) before i started obsessing over PM so i am used to having to space things from when i played that a lot but i havent found the poke/defense/spacing heavy style that comes with brawl to be that effective in PM and that may be because effective defense strategies in PM/melee are very different from effective defense strategies in brawl. i think all and all i need to improve my awareness of what my friend is doing so that i can give him kill setups and maybe play a somewhat interrupt heavier style so that he can safely get out those knees.

im curious how samus is bad for MK. she cant missile spam nearly as effectively vs him due to how short he is and MK can DD to bait out ftilt etc. and just punish with grab if shes gonna try and CC him. im probably missing something though.

luckily i dont think anyone will be play ZSS. there will be a roy/marth player there as well as other marths and there could definitely be a bunch of fox and falco players due to how melee heavy the scene is here.

A good way to give your partner set-ups into knee is use MK's incredible tech chasing ability, which can be netted out of good dash-dancing. If you have a Brawl marth background, you're probably pretty good at spacing, so use his dtilts with the dash dance to bait and punish.

As far as Samus goes, her missiles so cause problems for MK: he doesn't have good air speed and his jumps don't cover much distance at all. She also has good tilts and her tether to keep him at bay or possibly apply a huge punish due to his weight and falling speed. Samus' weakness to lots of characters is the diagonal area above and in front of her; think above the shoulders and in front. She has almost no options when you apply pressure there, yet MK cannot apply pressure there since he is most certainly a ground-based character.

If your partner is aggressive and you are too normally then I see no problem in changing up your style. The fact that you're good at spacing and poking means learning the neutral game with MK shouldn't be a stretch for you. If you need anymore resources you can continue to post replies here and you can check out the Lawn Chair question page, which has a lot of good video resources.

 

[Taytertot]

A good way to give your partner set-ups into knee is use MK's incredible tech chasing ability, which can be netted out of good dash-dancing. If you have a Brawl marth background, you're probably pretty good at spacing, so use his dtilts with the dash dance to bait and punish.

As far as Samus goes, her missiles so cause problems for MK: he doesn't have good air speed and his jumps don't cover much distance at all. She also has good tilts and her tether to keep him at bay or possibly apply a huge punish due to his weight and falling speed. Samus' weakness to lots of characters is the diagonal area above and in front of her; think above the shoulders and in front. She has almost no options when you apply pressure there, yet MK cannot apply pressure there since he is most certainly a ground-based character.

If your partner is aggressive and you are too normally then I see no problem in changing up your style. The fact that you're good at spacing and poking means learning the neutral game with MK shouldn't be a stretch for you. If you need anymore resources you can continue to post replies here and you can check out the Lawn Chair question page, which has a lot of good video resources.

sweet thank you for all the info. hopefully i can get some practice/friendlies games with my friend before the doubles tourney so i can work on this stuff with him. maybe even playing singles as MK against him would help us both to understand each others styles better (though i feel like MK kinda s**** on falcon so that could be rough for him even though hes a more experienced player then i am).
i do notice that ive forgotten to give my friend follow ups sometimes especially with grabs because dthrow is kinda a habit for me now since the tech chases are so good. but i need to remember to throw opponents towards him for knee setups cause he somehow already has the timing and trajectory down for sweetspot knee out of my dthrow (at higher percents) and bthrow.

what moves setup into kills for MK? ive certainly got some to work like dthrow to downB tech chase and dtilt nair at higher percents but i dont know how to setup bair other then getting it raw off bad positioning (i.e. edgeguards etc.) and fsmashes i just kinda get raw cause no one knows the MK MU very well here. then theres dsmash which i dont have any exact setups for but i can still sometimes get it off bad DI but all in all my kill setups arent very good yet. any suggestions?

Edit: i thought i remembered hearing that MK's attacks are transcendent and therefore dont clank, is that right i did i hear wrong?

 

[Narelex]

sweet thank you for all the info. hopefully i can get some practice/friendlies games with my friend before the doubles tourney so i can work on this stuff with him. maybe even playing singles as MK against him would help us both to understand each others styles better (though i feel like MK kinda s**** on falcon so that could be rough for him even though hes a more experienced player then i am).
i do notice that ive forgotten to give my friend follow ups sometimes especially with grabs because dthrow is kinda a habit for me now since the tech chases are so good. but i need to remember to throw opponents towards him for knee setups cause he somehow already has the timing and trajectory down for sweetspot knee out of my dthrow (at higher percents) and bthrow.

what moves setup into kills for MK? ive certainly got some to work like dthrow to downB tech chase and dtilt nair at higher percents but i dont know how to setup bair other then getting it raw off bad positioning (i.e. edgeguards etc.) and fsmashes i just kinda get raw cause no one knows the MK MU very well here. then theres dsmash which i dont have any exact setups for but i can still sometimes get it off bad DI but all in all my kill setups arent very good yet. any suggestions?

Edit: i thought i remembered hearing that MK's attacks are transcendent and therefore dont clank, is that right i did i hear wrong?

MK's attacks barring dash attack and his getup attack animation, are indeed transcendent. MK has a lot of moves that can setup into kills which can make it hard to describe. Up air to shuttleloop/DC/Bair/Dair/Nair depending on DI, percentage and the type of recovery they have. Dtilt can lead to a variety of follow-ups. It's a very broad question.

MK is very flexible so experimenting and finding what works for you would be my advice.