Mindgames dont exist: The Truth

[Brookman]

Mindgames are SSBM own pattented word for strategy. Its like play speed chess. If two people are playing speed chess and one guy has a strategy (mindgame) and the other doesn't the player implementing strategy will win 9/10. I use the example of speed chess because it is fast paced much like Super Smash which makes mindgames hard to learn. But "mindgames" are in everything from sports to Halo 2 or Madden, its just called strategy.

Using strategy in speed chess is a definite no-no. If you implement a strategy you won't be as flexible as someone playing just by experience and wit. Similarly in SSBM, if you have specific strategies against specific characters you may find yourself in hot water when you go up against someone who knows how to cover their characters weaknesses in that particular match up. A major part (in both chess and melee) is being able to notice patterns/set-ups. The one HUGE difference that doesn't make chess a good comparison to melee is the fact that chess is not immediate. Both players do not act continuously and simultaneously, you take turns and are only allowed one move a turn. That does create a very good dynamic for that particular game though, but it makes it a not so reliable comparison to melee.

 

[cradmazy_SKAG]

There is no spoon.

 

[Pikaville]

There is no spoon.

Since when?

 

[Red Exodus]

I expected a more thought out thread, oh well you'll learn mindgames exist in good time.

 

[cradmazy_SKAG]

Since when?

since the robots took over the world sometime in the mid 22nd century and we are all bred for electricity harvesting purposes and our brains and vital organs are hooked up to a 20/21st century simulation program in which we think that we are in charge of the world but the robots have us punkd like ashton kutcher.

know your history!!!!!

 

[tarheeljks]

@mog: i'm late to reply to this, but that is preposterous. psychology is a large part of all fighting games. if you don't use mindgames, you must be psychic.

 

[MaskedMarth]

I expected a more thought out thread, oh well you'll learn mindgames exist in good time.

I've been in the Smash community a long time, longer than most people. I've had plenty of "good time" to dwell on. So you may wonder, what wisdom has my experience fostered, that I may weigh upon the illusion of mindgames?

"Mindgames" is a label. A name. Just like "l-cancel." The word "l-cancel" attaches to a concrete concept - there can be no doubt that l-canceling, or the concept it labels, exists. "Mindgames," however, attaches to nothing but the wind. Surely, there is a psychology to the game of Smash. There is also plenty of guesswork - figuring out what your opponent is likely to do next, and choosing a suitable response. The term "mindgames" tries to reconcile these two discrete concepts, but can only grasp at air. It never exemplifies one, unified idea. Only a confused jumble, a vague thing of the mind that stands apart from tech skill.

The question is not so much "do mindgames exist," but rather whether we should ever use such a cloudy term, when there are clearly better alternatives.

 

[ChopingBoard]

i am mind games (hopefull no one all ready said this)

 

[cowboyardee]

a few pages ago:

i am mindgames

bad luck, mang

 

[ChopingBoard]

**** the dudes name is even mindgames

 

[ChopingBoard]

this topic is mindgames (hopefully no one all ready said this)

 

[FeArTeHsMaSh]

I've been in the Smash community a long time, longer than most people. I've had plenty of "good time" to dwell on. So you may wonder, what wisdom has my experience fostered, that I may weigh upon the illusion of mindgames?

"Mindgames" is a label. A name. Just like "l-cancel." The word "l-cancel" attaches to a concrete concept - there can be no doubt that l-canceling, or the concept it labels, exists. "Mindgames," however, attaches to nothing but the wind. Surely, there is a psychology to the game of Smash. There is also plenty of guesswork - figuring out what your opponent is likely to do next, and choosing a suitable response. The term "mindgames" tries to reconcile these two discrete concepts, but can only grasp at air. It never exemplifies one, unified idea. Only a confused jumble, a vague thing of the mind that stands apart from tech skill.

The question is not so much "do mindgames exist," but rather whether we should ever use such a cloudy term, when there are clearly better alternatives.

I challenge anyone to debate against this argument.

 

[dark_sasuke89]

this topic is mindgames (hopefully no one all ready said this)

lol yeah it is

 

[XZalla]

In our community, it's getting whored to the point where it doesn't make sense at all..

"Use mind game, use mind games!!!"

And what about that voice impersonation vid? Ken vs Wes? I swear, no one was really mentioning the word until that video was made. **** ;/

 

[tarheeljks]

@fear: You can claim that the word "mindgames" is an amorphous term; I have no problem with that. The term is often used to reference the psychology of smash, but whether we should call it something else is of little more than semantic value. This thread is about whether they exist, not whether you approve of their name.

 

[Seanson]

Here's what I think:

Mindgames are the game of ssbm that cannot be played with technical skill. There is the present, and the future. The present consists of all technical skills such as performing your l-cancels or techs and DI. I would say the mindgames of smash are seeing/thinking ahead of the present, and what you will need to do. A player with poor mindgames will often be predictable, as they may not predict far into the future and don't think about it as much.

Pretty much, I think tech skill is what you do, and mind games are what you need to do. Since mindgames come first, at higher levels it is more often a battle of thinking ahead than of tech skill.

 

[cradmazy_SKAG]

You were mindgamesified by my professional mindgameseration. resistance is futile. superiority is me.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I believe that a lot of people get sidetracked on the argument of whether mindgames exist or not, because the term is misused and abused so often. Sometimes it is misused jokingly (when my friend Phantasms off the stage, I can't help but shout "Mindgames!"), and other times it is simply ignorance. Not ignorance meaning stupidity, but ignorance meaning a lack of knowledge on the subject. Also, some people label "tricky" or "smart" gameplay as mindgames. I don't completely believe that's true, but it's just an example of the many ways that people define mindgames.

I do believe that it is difficult to determine whether mindgames exist or not because to me, mindgames is a concept. It is an intangible, not a concrete visible strategy like wavedashing or L-Canceling. It is a combination of many things including strategy, predictability, trickery, and analyzing. It is very broad because of this conceptual property.

Since mindgames is conceptual, and mostly within the mind, nobody can completely state whether mindgames exist or not. "Mindgames do/don't exist" is a statement of opinion, not fact, unless the Smash community has an exact definition of mindgames. If mindgames does indeed have a true definition, then one can truthfully state that mindgames do or don't exist.

The question "Do mindgames exist?" is very debatable, but it is safe to say that the idea of mindgames, or the concept of mindgames, exists.

 

[MaskedMarth]

@fear: You can claim that the word "mindgames" is an amorphous term; I have no problem with that. The term is often used to reference the psychology of smash, but whether we should call it something else is of little more than semantic value. This thread is about whether they exist, not whether you approve of their name.

And my point is, you can't even begin to ask whether "mindgames" exists if they don't refer to any specific thing. We see mindgames used in entirely different ways. Some examples:

- "You've got to use mindgames, or you'll become predictable."

So mindgames is antonymous with predictable - and it basically means "changing it up."

- "When I wavedash back when my opponent is attacking, avoiding his attack and countering with my own, that is mindgames."

In this instance, "mindgames" is the act of predicting your enemy. Notice that in this instance, you're predicting the opponent, and in the previous example the opponent is doing the predicting.

- "I always taunt after a kill - you know, mindgames."

And here, we are talking about some mental factor - Fox's jeering "come out!" might send the opponent into a careless frenzy. This has little to do with prediction by either player.

Each of these instances - and you've surely seen them all, in some form - uses "mindgames" to mean a different thing. Each of these things exists - so when mindgames is standing in for any one of these concepts, "mindgames" exists. Happy? But nobody clearly realizes (or states) that "mindgames" is an umbrella term used for three, specific concepts (or more - I've seen it used in other, more ridiculous ways). Thus we are lost when the meaning is not made clear by context. Let's see what happens when the meaning is more ambiguous:

- "GERM is the more technical Fox, but Aniki has better mindgames."

Of course, in this instance it would be better just to say "while GERM relies on shffl's, Aniki is more ground-based and uses simple techniques." No mindgames involved - the simple techniques are better. So the use of the word "mindgames" here is just plain wrong.

- "Use mindgames!"

And this sentence just doesn't mean anything at all, so it's infuriating when somebody tells us to "use mindgames" or to "improve our mindgames." What specifically are you talking about?

 

[forward]

It's all Azen's fault >.>

 

[brianmercury]

anyone who does not belive in mindgames is an idiot. The game of smash is about deception. You are trying to attack your opponent when they are not prepared for it. If no one tried to trick their opponent we would just smash across the stage. If you notice it or not you are constantly changing your attacks and stratagies to get at your opponent these are mindgames. dash dancing your opponent into attacking, wavedashing back and forth trying to get your opponent to miss an attack, all mindgames. Some mindgames are more complicated than others, but even a noob who only uses b moves swiches them up and uses them differently to mess their opponent up. Saying there is no such thing as a mindgame just shows us all how much of a noob you are. Advice to implement more mindgames simply means to try and trick your opponent more, swich things up. Sayin there are no mindgames is something noobs do when they don't want to put in the work to understand them , or to admit that pros operate on a deeper level of skill than others.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

btw - forward has nasty mindgames

and... stop arguing that they dont exist.
people who know what they're talking about know what they are
its too late to change the name, unfortunately

edit: was this whole thing a joke or not?

 

[Brookman]

I have tricks, I have tricks in my shoe.



mindgames?

 

[Scintillatedseed]

it means something, however it is over-simplified I do agree with the small point you are trying to make.

- "GERM is the more technical Fox, but Aniki has better mindgames."

Of course, in this instance it would be better just to say "while GERM relies on shffl's, Aniki is more ground-based and uses simple techniques." No mindgames involved - the simple techniques are better. So the use of the word "mindgames" here is just plain wrong.
color]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, he doesn't JUST use simple tactics, that again is over-simplifying it. His air maneuver's and his choice of attack's are part of his mindgames. He can also predict his oponent better because he knows what will work better in what situation. He knows how to control the pace, and knows when to pull back, and when to attack. That's what seperate's the best player's from the rest, they don't just attack when they think they can, but they know also know when they can't. And they prepare themselves for the next attack rather than risking a mistake. It's all very subtle.

But the matter on mindgames is simply this, it means different things to different people because its uses in different contexts are endless(like all things in life. If it weren't, then the game would stagnate, adn there would be no growth. Even dictionary's serve to simply help define, they're there to help unmask some of the boundaries, and to provide guidelines. That's why medical dictionaries have their own definitions and every other book for that matter. We're working with intagible's here.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

And my point is, you can't even begin to ask whether "mindgames" exists if they don't refer to any specific thing. We see mindgames used in entirely different ways. Some examples:

- "You've got to use mindgames, or you'll become predictable."

So mindgames is antonymous with predictable - and it basically means "changing it up."

- "When I wavedash back when my opponent is attacking, avoiding his attack and countering with my own, that is mindgames."

In this instance, "mindgames" is the act of predicting your enemy. Notice that in this instance, you're predicting the opponent, and in the previous example the opponent is doing the predicting.

You are taking everything out of context. Predictions are made in both instances. In instance one, the player is being predicted by his opponent for his lack of mindgames. In instance two, the player is using a mindgame to make his opponent falsely predict what he is going to do. Let's say we used the person from instance one, who we'll say doesn't use any mindgames. He's charging into his opponent, and his opponent can predict that he will do a dash attack or whatever, so his opponent can just sheild grab. Boom. He got predicted. Now let's say the person is using mindgames. He charges into his opponent, and his opponent predicts that he will dash attack. BUT! The player realized that his opponent would think that, and he took advantage of this knowledge by disrupting his opponent's prediction with a wavedash back. That is where a mindgame took place. Actually a mindgame took place in instance one also, it was just very basic.

Every time someone lands a hit on their opponent, and it wasn't due to their opponent screwing up with their hands, then one person read their opponent better than their opponent read them. Maybe Clever Dan over here thinks he's smart because he knows that wavedashing back will disrupt people who think he is going to dash attack. But what if his opponent realizes this and counters? Then Dan got outmindgamed - they were both trying to figure out what the other was going to do (a mindgame), and Dan's opponent was a step ahead.

I'm guessing the confusion for all of this is from the different ways the word "mindgame" is used. Like I said, when two people are trying to figure out what their opponents are going to do, a mind game is taking place. But then I kind of contradicted myself by saying the loser got outmindgamed. Really he just lost the mindgame. And instead of saying people are good at winning mindgames, people will say the person HAS good mindgames.

- "Use mindgames!"

And this sentence just doesn't mean anything at all, so it's infuriating when somebody tells us to "use mindgames" or to "improve our mindgames." What specifically are you talking about?

When someone says "use mindgames" or "improve your mindgames," they mean to get better at reading your opponent. They are saying that when a mindgame occurs, a time when you and your opponent are trying to figure each other out, you need to get more involved - take more steps into thinking about what your opponent might predict about you, and if they'll anticipate that you will consider that, etc. Dive deeper into mindgames.

- "I always taunt after a kill - you know, mindgames."

And here, we are talking about some mental factor - Fox's jeering "come out!" might send the opponent into a careless frenzy. This has little to do with prediction by either player.

Taunting isn't a mindgame in itself, and the word is misused when someone says that. However, doing something like taunting to make your opponent careless is definetely related to mindgames, because it makes them participate less in mindgames - they don't go as deep in predicting the other person, so they're easier to predict.

 

[mog87]

After taking a break from the thread and re reading some stuff...some of you guys sound like religious nuts.

And whats with the random insults again...sheesh. I mean if youre gonna insult me atleast offer a deceint rebutal. Though its kinda nice that someone makes an account just for li'l ol' me.

edit: was this whole thing a joke or not?

Isn't that part of the beauty of the thread..take it as you wish.

 

[Falco1234]

They are nothing but lies and fables made up by the Man to oppress the people. But seriously Im sick of hearing it every other sentence, the usage of the word is overly saturated and doesnt even mean anything. In other sports or competive events they have intangibles in smash everything is mindgames this mindgames that.

And I love all the psuedo analysts that can see the "mindgames" or lack off, by watching a couple of videos. Also it seems others use these "mindgames" as a blanket of comfort against their lack of technical(another annoying word) ability.

In short I think anytime the word mindgame(s) is used it should be substitued with some other dummy word(like the gay wii thing). This will not solve anything as the context will still be the same but it would be somewhat amusing.

In closing as the late rick james, parodied by chappelle, would say **** YO' MINDGAMES!!

mind games are real

if i act like im gonna foward smash and instead i do something else and you try and counter a foward smash that is indeed mindgames

 

[ChopingBoard]

mind games are real

if i act like im gonna foward smash and instead i do something else and you try and counter a foward smash that is indeed mindgames

that's not mind games. you just didn't forward smash. mind games don't exist. It's just playing to my disadvantage.

 

[choknater]

that's not mind games. you just didn't forward smash. mind games don't exist. It's just playing to my disadvantage.

OR PERHAPS IT WAS MINDGAMES?

playing smart = mindgammez'd.
or
playing smart = no mindgammez'd?

this thread has gotten pretty bad to the point where people are actually convinced that there's either "mindgames" or "no mindgames" and actually putting weird arguments about it.

this is called a fallacy of logic through discrepancy in language.... CIRCULAR ARGUMENTS :'C!!!

therefore i think mindgames do and don't exist : )

 

[T-Rex]

Wikipedia respects that mind games are real;
"The term mind games refers to passive aggressive behaviour used specifically to demoralize the subject while making the aggressor look superior."

and so do Dictionaries
"mind games
–noun
psychological manipulation or strategy, used esp. to gain advantage or to intimidate.

mind game
n.

1. An act or series of acts of calculated psychological manipulation, especially in order to confuse or intimidate. Often used in the plural.
2. An activity that provides entertainment and challenges the intellect.

mind game

noun
1. any game designed to exercise the intellect
2. deliberate actions of calculated psychological manipulation intended to intimidate or confuse (usually for competitive advantage); "football players try to play mind games with the opposition"; "the jeweler's mind game is to convince lovers that the size of a gemstone reflects the depth of their feelings" "

I love the "The Jeweler's mind game is to convince lovers that the size of a gemstone reflects the depth of thier feelings." A true Mindgame son.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think abusing spammable moves and playing smart makes more of an impact then mindgames. But, yes, they do exists. Mindgames just means tricking someone or messing with thier head.

That's the most basic defintion. I think mog is trying to say that he is sick of the word mindgame being tossed around to label every kind of obscure trick or strat.

 

[ºOblivionº]

I think abusing spammable moves and playing smart makes more of an impact then mindgames. But, yes, they do exists. Mindgames just means tricking someone or messing with thier head.

That's the most basic defintion. I think mog is trying to say that he is sick of the word mindgame being tossed around to label every kind of obscure trick or strat.

Yea thats the ideal i got also... I dont know why everyone taking this so seriously.

 

[ti83pop]

Imho

To me, a mindgame or mindgames, are/is something used to get an advantage. Toying with your opponent to get them where you want them. Yes, it is being over used, but they are real. Dash dancing = mindgame. Wavedash= mindgame. It also depends largly on how you use the things. Dashdance I think is the prime example. Faking out your opponent. Toying with their MIND. Wavedash is a mindgame, but it also gives a technical advantage. But, mindgames are something along with skill. Without skill, you can develop no mindgames. Skill, not quite technical skill, but skill. I think everyone is taking the word a little to literally.

 

[NJzFinest]

Hmmm, too many people taking Mog's first post too seriously.

 

[ti83pop]

My post was directed to everyone, not just mog. Also, nobody knows if he was entirely serious or if he was joking. Or just talking about it being used to much. Eh.

 

[NJzFinest]

My post was directed to everyone, not just ti83pop. Blah blah blah blah

 

[ti83pop]

-.-

But in all seriousness, i said that not because i thought you were saying it to me, but because i was just making it known. Also, i was explaining why so many people where taking it seriously.

But yes, imo, mindgames exist. Just not actually things that you tuely mess with their mind, but things like faking them out and such are mindgames. I know that that is also playing on their disadvantages, but that's what i think mindgames really are. :-\

 

[tshahi10]

people who say no mindgames = noobs = complainer = loser = etc.

 

[Red Exodus]

You obviously don't know what step-thinking is. If you did you would know you can apply it to any competitive scenario.

It's like rock, paper, scissors. If you lose the first one because your opponent chose rock, if your opponent doesn't step-think [you will have to find this out with trial and error] then if you remain as scissors [which was beaten in the first try] you should win or tie that round.

If your opponent is a mutli-step thinker then you would need to be better multi-step thinker than your opponent to win. If you can't think that far ahead then you will have a hell of a fight on your hands against anyone who can even step-think [which just about everyone SHOULD be able to do].


P.S. If this thread is s sarcastic thread I'm sorry I couldn't tell, normally sarcasm requires a voice and a tone to be detected unless of course you make a blatantly obvious. Either way I hate sarcasm, it's for people who like to 'beat around the bush'.

 

[ti83pop]

I think that's exactly what people are categorizing as "mindgames". That is something you have to mentally think about and, though it may just be luck sometimes, it messes with people. They'll think something is going to happen when it doesn't. I think that's why people are so mad about when people say mindgames, they will think of it as just dodging or doing somthing that is luck etc., but when people say mind games, they are talking about parts of the game that play with your mental ability, not just button pressing. Sorry if that sounded odd...