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Mindgames dont exist: The Truth

mog87

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Messages
603
Location
North NJ
They are nothing but lies and fables made up by the Man to oppress the people. But seriously Im sick of hearing it every other sentence, the usage of the word is overly saturated and doesnt even mean anything. In other sports or competive events they have intangibles in smash everything is mindgames this mindgames that.

And I love all the psuedo analysts that can see the "mindgames" or lack off, by watching a couple of videos. Also it seems others use these "mindgames" as a blanket of comfort against their lack of technical(another annoying word) ability.

In short I think anytime the word mindgame(s) is used it should be substitued with some other dummy word(like the gay wii thing). This will not solve anything as the context will still be the same but it would be somewhat amusing.

In closing as the late rick james, parodied by chappelle, would say **** YO' MINDGAMES!!
 

Smooth Criminal

⬅️↙️⬇️ ➕ HS
Premium
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
13,568
Location
Hinckley, Minnesota
NNID
boundless_light
...Mindgames do exist in Smash, believe it or not. I believe there are countless threads within the forum that describe each and every single one that's been developed.

Whether you choose to acknowledge them or not is entirely up to you.

As for "intangibles" in sports...well, I think you need to take a closer look. Football's a really good example of mindgames in action. Those pretty formations on the field aren't part of a ballet, man; they're strategic placements of each player. And the whole "audible" thing that QB's pull? Yeah...that's meant to throw off the defense and confuse them.
 

Brightside6382

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,538
Location
Skokie, IL
The topic creator knows mindgames are real but he is just merely saying he is tired of hearing so many people throwing out the word without knowing what it means. In other fighting games "mindgames" is merely playing smart, but in the smash community it becomes this huge complicated subject that I see many don't really understand.
 

Starzonedge

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
605
Location
Richmond Hill, NY.
Mind games just needs a better word, really. It's too late to change it now, though. However, for the most part, the definition matches what people usually talk about.

"deliberate actions of calculated psychological manipulation intended to intimidate or confuse (usually for competitive advantage); any game designed to exercise the intellect"

Sounds right to me, but when people use it interchangeably with "skill", then that's when a better word is needed.
 

Ronin686

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
800
That first post has got to be the most ignorant thing I've read in a while.
 

Bronze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
271
Location
London/Exeter
He's saying its annoying when this happens:

"Can you watch my video and tell me how to get better?"

"Yeah, your ok. But get more mindgames."
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I agree completely.

Mindgames don't exist, and none of you can provide evidence to prove me wrong.
 

Aiko

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
2,276
Location
Manchester, UK
actually I CAN provide evidence of mindgames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3gitYccuY
here is a video of bombsoldier and jing (obviously bombsoldier is falco)

If you watch at 2:14 you can see fox has a choice of either firefoxing to the ledge or to the stage. With bombsoldier already hogging the ledge, the most obvious choice would be for fox to fly to the stage and that is what bombsoldier thinks. Bombsoldier then proceeds to ledgehop bair only to find that jing flies to the ledge.

mindgames in action.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
actually I CAN provide evidence of mindgames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3gitYccuY
here is a video of bombsoldier and jing (obviously bombsoldier is falco)

If you watch at 2:14 you can see fox has a choice of either firefoxing to the ledge or to the stage. With bombsoldier already hogging the ledge, the most obvious choice would be for fox to fly to the stage and that is what bombsoldier thinks. Bombsoldier then proceeds to ledgehop bair only to find that jing flies to the ledge.

mindgames in action.
You have no idea what there were thinking. That was over a year ago, thousands of miles away. He just made the wrong choice.

You don't know what you're talking about.
 

Aiko

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
2,276
Location
Manchester, UK
just because it was a year ago doesnt mean its not there.

I agree with you that people use the term "mindgames" far too much with little respect and meaning for the word now, but in spite of all that, it still exists. I also agree with you that people are being lazy when they suggest "learn more mindgames" and claim that they can read the mindgames, which 95% of the time they cant due to the blurring from lack of technical skill, but it cannot be denied that mindgames are present and can be witnessed when 2 high level players, with few technical limitations face each other.

When it comes down to it, Smash bros. is merely a medium for the battle of 2 or more minds.
 

alcheato

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
525
Location
Chicago, IL
They are nothing but lies and fables made up by the Man to oppress the people. But seriously Im sick of hearing it every other sentence, the usage of the word is overly saturated and doesnt even mean anything. In other sports or competive events they have intangibles in smash everything is mindgames this mindgames that.

And I love all the psuedo analysts that can see the "mindgames" or lack off, by watching a couple of videos. Also it seems others use these "mindgames" as a blanket of comfort against their lack of technical(another annoying word) ability.

In short I think anytime the word mindgame(s) is used it should be substitued with some other dummy word(like the gay wii thing). This will not solve anything as the context will still be the same but it would be somewhat amusing.

In closing as the late rick james, parodied by chappelle, would say **** YO' MINDGAMES *****!!
Mr. T pities the inbred fool who posts this monkey ****. Saying mindgames don't exist is basically saying strategy doesn't exist, which as with any game is simply not true. It's like at my first tourney when people first started using advanced techniques like SHFFL's and wavedashes on me before I knew what they were. I remember being like "wtf is this ****?!" Regardless of their superior technical skill at that point, me and my friend still won quite a few matches simply because of some opponents lack of any strategy whatsoever. Mindgames ftw, son. Lack of them = anal **** by anyone with half a brain.
 

Jack Lavender

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
73
Location
San Diego, CA
My buttons!

Amen to this topic.

Never in my life have i seen the word "mind games" so often until i reached this site.

I hate it. Hate it!

I don't really visit other fighting game sites, but i'm doubting they get crazy over developing better mindgames.

As for the football analogy someone gave earlier, that's strategy! That's planning/thinking ahead.

It just sounds really stupid after a while.

It's like half of this community has given mind games their own personal, yet vauge definition of the word.
 

CWolf20

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
223
Location
Madison, WI
The reality is that in Smash, "mindgames" and "strategy" are basically interchangeable. The way I look at it, a "strategy" is a general gameplan you design either beforehand or in game, and represent a general mix of both a technical combo and the necessary set up for that combo.

A "mindgame" is the first half of that strategy, convincing the opponent that you won't do what you plan on doing by either confusing, frustrating, or misleading them.

Strategy = mindgame ==> technical combo

A more broad definition could be that your strategy represents every mindgame and technical play you can set up based upon your analysis of your opponent. So in that case, a strategy is a series of mindgames and combos that you feel work best against either a broad number of people, or just a specific person.

Either way, for most people now, technical skill has a lot of parity, so the only thing people can really work on is the mindgame half of their strategy. So, given that pretty much everyone can execute most of the second half of the equation fairly equally, the only part of strategy that changes now is the mindgames half. Hence, you can basically remove the second half of the equation, creating an equivalence. Strategy = mindgames

This still doesn't excuse the ridiculousness of people constantly saying "get better mindgames." That is getting really old.
 

CWolf20

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
223
Location
Madison, WI
Most of the people in this thread didn't bother to read the first post.
Umm, no? The first post was one of 2 things:

1) A joke. Then he got us, well done.

2) Serious. In this case, then his post said mindgames don't exist, people simply use the term because they can't come up with anything else that describes playing smart. I'm sure his major issue is more with the people who constantly reiterate the word, but the claim of "mindgames don't exist" needs to be addressed as well.

Many people in this thread are either agreeing with him, or attempting to show that indeed, mindgames do exist, people are just idiots and refuse to actually learn what they really are.

In fact, it would seem that pretty much EVERYONE is in agreement that the term gets thrown around too much, in which case this thread has no relevance whatsoever except for the debate on whether mindgames exist.

Although, the fact that he ended a post with a 3 year old played out joke hurts his credibility a bit.
 

The Dark Lord Ganondorf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2005
Messages
134
I too hate the term mindgames. Its misleading. What most people call "mindgames" I would just call intellegent play, and no their not interchangeable. People also give varying interpretations of what "mindgames" are. I just think its a weak attempt at a technical term.
That guy who linked the video, how could that possibly be described as employing "mindgames" or even skill? The recovering chracter had two choices, the aggressor went the wrong way, its called chance. Luck.

So I suppose that means luck is a "mindgame" as well?!
 

CWolf20

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
223
Location
Madison, WI
Analyzing patterns of play is not a mindgame, it is part of overall strategy. In the case of "luck", as you said, figuring out what the person will do off the edge when he has two options is part of this analysis. No one is random. If the guy has 2 choices, he will do one more than the other based upon his experience with the move. It's the other player's job to figure out which is the most likely, and choose an action that suits it best. So, in a sense, he got "lucky" to get back to the edge, but he may have figured that he had done the other option and gotten away with it before, and figured BS would adjust and try to stop him this time, so he decided to switch it up.

Yes, it's "luck", but there are ways of maximizing your potential from every situation.
 

g-regulate

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Messages
7,628
Location
ashburn, VA
you are ********. all mindgame are, are tricking people into stuff. thats it. there is mindgames in chess. theres mindgames in almost every competitive sport. you are ********.
 

EnigmaticCam

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
688
Location
CA
you are ********. all mindgame are, are tricking people into stuff. thats it. there is mindgames in chess. theres mindgames in almost every competitive sport. you are ********.
lol. I don't know of any mindgames in chess, at least not ones that really make a difference :)
 

mog87

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Messages
603
Location
North NJ
actually I CAN provide evidence of mindgames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3gitYccuY
here is a video of bombsoldier and jing (obviously bombsoldier is falco)

If you watch at 2:14 you can see fox has a choice of either firefoxing to the ledge or to the stage. With bombsoldier already hogging the ledge, the most obvious choice would be for fox to fly to the stage and that is what bombsoldier thinks. Bombsoldier then proceeds to ledgehop bair only to find that jing flies to the ledge.

mindgames in action.
looks like he was playing rock, paper, scissors, and his opponent already threw out rock a couple of times...gee looks more like common sense to me. Either way he had very few options..go to the ledge or go the stage... ill be dam(n)ed if that classifies as some jedi mind trick.


Although, the fact that he ended a post with a 3 year old played out joke hurts his credibility a bit.
I had credibility to start with? At any rate I find it quite interesting that we cant even quite reach a consensus to what these alleged "mindgames" actually are. I.e some trying to isolate an individual "mindgame" while others are somehow using it interchangably with general strategy...seems kinda fishy to me.
 

CWolf20

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
223
Location
Madison, WI
I had credibility to start with? At any rate I find it quite interesting that we cant even quite reach a consensus to what these alleged "mindgames" actually are. I.e some trying to isolate an individual "mindgame" while others are somehow using it interchangably with general strategy...seems kinda fishy to me.
Well, that's the point of the debate. I feel like a large percentage of people are saying they are the tricks used to force an opponent into a situation which is worse for them, allowing the mindgamer (for lack of a better term) to pull off a set of moves.

One thing you have to remember: A lot of people have lost sight of what mindgames actually are due to the absurd overuse of the term on this site. If you ask any competent person, I'm sure they'll give a definition similar to the one above.
 

Vall3y

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Messages
1,619
Location
Israel
theres no need to define the word 'mindgames'
whenever you use it, its the same idea behind it, and everyone understand what you mean
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
They are nothing but lies and fables made up by the Man to oppress the people. But seriously Im sick of hearing it every other sentence, the usage of the word is overly saturated and doesnt even mean anything. In other sports or competive events they have intangibles in smash everything is mindgames this mindgames that.

And I love all the psuedo analysts that can see the "mindgames" or lack off, by watching a couple of videos. Also it seems others use these "mindgames" as a blanket of comfort against their lack of technical(another annoying word) ability.

In short I think anytime the word mindgame(s) is used it should be substitued with some other dummy word(like the gay wii thing). This will not solve anything as the context will still be the same but it would be somewhat amusing.

In closing as the late rick james, parodied by chappelle, would say **** YO' MINDGAMES *****!!

Quoted for utter truth. Every time I see someone post about how good so-and-so's mind games are I just want to vomit -.- Mind games don't really exist, you either play intelligently or vice-versa.

theres no need to define the word 'mindgames'
whenever you use it, its the same idea behind it, and everyone understand what you mean
If the term is going to be used as just a gneeralization it has no meaning at all. In that case everything in the game is a 'Mind Game' when you are recovering and you up-b early, mind game. When you hit their shield and l cancel and side step, mind game, when you roll, mind game, when you SD, mind game. The way the term is thrown about is ridiculous.
 

Edg

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
63
Location
Lapeer. MI
lol. I don't know of any mindgames in chess, at least not ones that really make a difference :)
Well it depends on the way you look at it. (Assuming you know how to play chess) Lets say you have a setup like this

Q
....................R
................R
......................B

Terrible drawing... but whatever. If White moved his rook forward one space so that the red rook could take it.. it would look as if white just made a stupid move, when in reality, it opened up the path to take the red queen with the white bishop. Now if red fell for it, he would lose his queen. Not only would have have to make sure he would analyze the playing field better, but he would think twice about going for bait, so maybe next time when player white does actually make that mistake red will be hesititant to take the piece.

Now lets apply this to SSBM. Lets say a Luigi is playing against a marth. Marth is charging a downsmash a bit away from lui and lui wavedashes in then spot dodges the fsmash then smashes him himself. Now next time Luigi wavedashes in, Marth knows luigi might dodge his fsmash so he anticipates that...

Another application to mindgames would be true mindgames.... IE getting 0...death combo'd by a player, next respawn generally you are going to be a little bit shaken, either playing defensive to retain your remaning lives, or agressive to earn back lost ground. Either way shaken from the balance.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
There are no mind games in chess, you either know what your opponent is doing or you don't. When you don't know what they are doing is when you fall into a trap, or if you don't realize something they are doing is a diversionary tactic you fall into traps. It's all about experience and general wit. Mind games is just a lame term for doing random things and hoping you get lucky, to be cynical about it.
 

Edg

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
63
Location
Lapeer. MI
There are no mind games in chess, you either know what your opponent is doing or you don't. When you don't know what they are doing is when you fall into a trap, or if you don't realize something they are doing is a diversionary tactic you fall into traps. It's all about experience and general wit.
Not understanding what your opponent is doing is the entire basis of mindgames :confused:
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
Not understanding what your opponent is doing is the entire basis of mindgames :confused:
Not understanding what is going on in a match is a result of inexperience.

General wit is a subtle definition of a mindgame.
Mind games is actually a lame term used to describe intelligent play through experience.

What makes PC/Azen/Ken/etc. better than your average smasher? Mind games, for certain.
 
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