Mind Uploading

[Hive]

Ok, so I'm interested in what you guys think of this ^^
As a scifi geek it interests me a lot, and i think it would very applicable to post here for debate and such^^
Also, read Diaspora, it rocks ^^

If you don't know, mind uploading is the process of transfering a human mind from its biological state to one inside of a computer, usually the bilogical brain is destroyed (on purpose) in the process to prevent any questions of which identity is really "you" if you know what i mean... There are many proposed ways to do this, though obviously it is not currently possible, the hope is that it will be in the future though... (also, as a side note, its more likely that it WILL happen over time than not.. unless people intervene)
The reason it can't be done right now is that we simply don't have the technology, and also the human brain has more synapses per minute than even the largest supercomputer in existence right now can possibly handle...
my favorite way imo opinion is to make nanomachines that would attach to each synapse and transmit the info to a computer ^^

There are many reasons to do this:
-the average age of a human can be prolonged pretty much to infinity
-intelligence can be enhanced easily by "upgrading" your mind
-people's moods can be altered at will (sort of like in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep
-people can create vitual settings, or simulations of basically anything...
-you can change how you look anytime :D
-no need to eat or sleep to get energy...

however what I want to ask is these questions to you guys...

Would your identity carry over or would you just create a clone?
Would people gradually fall into solipsism and into their own little worlds given the chance to do anything and make any reality?
Is existence in a real world better than a virtual one?
Should specific laws in a virtual world be enacted?
Will creating androids in the future that can outperform humans make humans feel inadequate and push them towards this? (like in bladerunner sort of...)
will the upper class be overrepresented in it at first bc of price?
And finally will vanity and intelligence matter as much? Will empathy?


I find this topic VERY interesting, for awhile I was even trying to get into the field, I probably still would be if cost was not an issue... so I'm very interested in what you guys think ^^ although now i'm not so sure if it would work...

edit also current estimates say this will probably be possible even by 2030/2050 @.@

edit2: also as a second edit, concerning if you think identity will be lost during the process...
do you think it still would be if they could
1. Make the transition from your biological brain to a computer just as quick and the process just as similar to the changing of thoughts you do on a regular basis?
2. Make the change gradual enough that you are basically only replacing one synapse at a time into the computer, and while inside these "synapses" can still communicate with your brain in the same fashion??
The idea is that your brain changes its composition all the time when you learn new things and such (neurons have to respond differently etc), and that this wouldn't be any different since the process is just as gradual and with only one synapse at a time... The idea is that if you don't lose consciousness from learning new things, you wouldn't while you are switching over...

edit3: Also, one more question for ya guys- should discrimination against androids/machines be tolerated? (like in chobits/A.I. lol)

sorry for such a long post! XP

 

[illinialex24]

Insanely scary.......

 

[Mith_]

Seems like one of those things that scientists would spend billions on each year and not make any progress.
This is just....too much.

 

[aeghrur]

I think...
Ross from friends talked about this, lmao.

It's pretty interesting.
Although infinity is annoying because, ugh, you get bored after a while.

 

[Overload]

It's interesting to say the least, but I don't think I'd want that to happen to humanity.

 

[Black_Heretic]

The first thought to arise after reading that was this, "Which humans get to have their minds placed into these computers?" The ones who were amazing thinkers and scientists, amazingly creative and innovative artists and writers, or just people who can afford it?

Sounds very matrix like to me, and potentially taking the humanity away from the human race is too unappealing a risk to take IMO

 

[Hive]

i seriously do think though that over time people will do this whether i believe in it or not though... [*...*]

for many people the idea that you can have ANYTHING and live forever and as smart as you want the appeal is too great...
Its scary bc it really takes the point home on "what exactly is humanity?" i really do think though that it will happen in time... the steps for doing it are already in progress....

 

[Black_Heretic]

Man fears death, so any means of self preservation will be explored whether or not it risks putting our very humanity on the line. Hive, you're right, it will be looked into and possibly have tons of money spent on it, but it seems very fictitious. I mean, just think, "we can preserve your thoughts, memory, your very self on a computer potentially at the risk of your humanity"

How would somebody respond to that?

 

[Firus]

Would your identity carry over or would you just create a clone?

If I did this, I'd want to create a clone...I don't want to become a computer.

Would people gradually fall into solipsism and into their own little worlds given the chance to do anything and make any reality?

Yes, I believe so. I think I would end up doing it myself. If you could create anything you want by just imagining it...isn't that something everyone's dreamed of since they were a little kid? People would reject reality and substitute their own, virtual one.

Is existence in a non real world better than a virtual one?

I'm not entirely clear on this question...isn't a virtual world a non-real world?

Should specific laws in a virtual world be enacted?

If it's your virtual world, created by yourself, I think laws are as essential to be enacted as in a video game. At your own leisure. If you want to go all GTA-style, go ahead. It may be unethical when you think about it, but it wouldn't do any harm really, except to yourself and your virtual world.

Will creating androids in the future that can outperform humans make humans feel inadequate and push them towards this? (like in bladerunner sort of...)

I imagine it would push some to it.

will the upper class be overrepresented in it at first bc of price?

Um...yeah, definitely. This is either going to be one of those things where, after it gains popularity, it becomes the norm (like color TVs) and cheap, or one of those things that remain a luxury for the wealthy. Like, insanely wealthy.

And finally will vanity and intelligence matter as much? Will empathy?

Intelligence won't, but vanity will. You'll be able to change your body at will but there will still be "styles". And if we're all wrapped up in a virtual world, I don't see empathy playing much of a role.

But off the specific questions, I'll reply to the concept in general.

Honestly, it scares the crap out of me. The idea that it could be ready in my lifetime is even worse. It's an idea that I think is great to dream about but when it's tangible, you realize how bad the effects could be. We'd all become robots. There would be no use for...anything anymore. Upload the knowledge you need for a job and you eliminate any need of training or anything. Going to a topic closer to home, competitive things would disappear. You could give yourself the knowledge and skills to play a video game; the knowledge and skills to play a sport.
But worst of all, if someone managed to send out a virus or something...you could destroy the entire human population. It seems like the positive ramifications aren't even positive in the scheme of things, and that any good that could come out of them would greatly be outweighed by the negative effects of this.

Living forever might be ideal, but I wouldn't want it like this. It would be bittersweet.

 

[Hive]

sorry about that firusthehedgehog i actually miss said the third question there ^^
i meant is there any difference between the real world or a virtual one... not physically, i meant... idk meaningfully i guess? ^^

edit: also i'm actually kind of surprised so many people are against it though ^^ actually i was really for it at first... though now i'm so of neutral on the issue i suppose...
i can see how it could be a good thing if it was controlled in a lot of ways... but i still do have a few problems wondering whether or not your identity would be lost and also if it would be good overall to have people get everything they want... but its hard to say...
there is a lot of discussion about it on the web concerning identity in mind uploading ^^(i think it mainly boils down to what you believe in though... functionalism, materialism, or dualism lol)
anyways I think if people could be prevented from harming one another and spacing out happy moments with boring ones so they don't completely cut themselves off or skew their idea of happiness... it could be ok....
or it could be horrible lol
what is humanity though? is it our acitons? our flaws? or what? its very confusing to me... even knowing a lot about this subject i still don't really have any solid answers though....
on one end you could say you are helping ppl to live longer, prevent disease, be happier etc... and how would you argue against this? like i said its difficult @.@

 

[DonQuixote]

This kind of sounds like the Pendragon book series. In one of the books a society has completely been lost because people have been put into these things called jumps where their mind is capable of creating their own fantasy. Eventually everyone just lives to be in the jumps and the society dies. This doesnt seem like a good idea to me.

 

[Hive]

donquixote- that actually sound like a kwl book! ok quick question though, why is interaction with other humans meaningful and what is the difference between meeting with a human and meeting with a program designed to act exactly like human?
also if people could be forced to associate with other people in a virtual setting would that make it ok then?

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

In my opinion, the concept of changing the foundation of human life and extinction of the garunteed destiny called 'death' will be FREAKY! Furthermore, I think technology will become just overboard if we keep finding new solutions to cover all our daily struggles. If this was the case, then society wouldn't even have to lift a finger to live! what a horribly lazy world we live in, even the definition of nature will be completely obliterated too scary Hive! SCCAAAAAAARRRYYYY!!! *Runs away*

 

[Darxmarth23]

Yay! Bioethics! My favorite subject!

I say that this is unethical. yet insanly cool.

Its hard to express what im trying to say in words at the time and im having troubles with life.

Ill edit this post later and state what i think. srry guys.

EDIT: My post is on page two.

 

[aeghrur]

Ethics, in the most basic form, is simply the question of: Does this minimize the damage and maximize the benefits?
I think it definitely maximizes the benefits, now I ask though, does this minimize or maximize the damage?

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

Yay! Bioethics! My favorite subject!

I say that this is unethical. yet insanly cool.

Its hard to express what im trying to say in words at the time and im having troubles with life.

Ill edit this post later and state what i think. srry guys.

Be A MAN! don't be afraid to take life up the backside! who knows? in the future you yourself might be even stronger than the 'cyber-humans', I'm up for the challenge though.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Hive (and everyone else really), if you haven't already, I highly suggest reading "Neuromancer" by William Gibson, and watching both seasons of the anime Ghost in the Shell: Stand Along Complex. Both of them deal with a lot of the issues that things like this bring up.

I'm most interested in the question of whether your consciousness actually gets transferred over or if it's just a "clone." Sadly I don't really see how it's possible. I mean, if it WERE possible, you would expect that if both you and the 'clone' are alive at the same time, wouldn't your consciousness be some kind of weird amalgam of both of them? It doesn't seem right that just because you assemble a neural network in a specific manner that your consciousness would all of a sudden appear on it. I think at best, you could be some kind of "brain in a jar" inside of a prosthetic body, which could just emulate reality for you if you so chose. And even then you'd still be susceptible to things like multiple sclerosis and brain cancer.

 

[DonQuixote]

Hive- the book is in the "Pendragon" series. the first one is called "the Merchant of Death" and the one with the thing that this discussion is about is the third one in the series i think. so yeah just thought id let you know lol

 

[Hive]

@hyugaricdeau-
the reason why its argued that consciousness CAN transfere over does seem to make a little sense though...
If done correctly they can say make the transition as quick and as harmless as when you change memories/thinking in your own mind, obviously the assumption being that if you don't lose your consciousness when thinking about other stuff this shouldn't as well...
also there are certain processes that transfer your consciousness over a prolonged period of time, a couple neurons maybe at a time, and while they are in the compy they can still transmit the info. they'd usually transmit to your biological brain... again the assumption would be that since your brain changes atoms here and there alll the time and you don't lose consciousness, only changing one neuron at a time wouldn't cause you to lose it either...
I think it basically comes down to how you think your identity is defined though... (by your body's function, by a soul, by the material... etc...)
I'm not disagreeing with you, its just messy I think, and hard to imagine which side is right ^^

Neuromancer sounds kwl too o.o what's it about??

edit:
I am robot and proud! [*...*]

 

[pockyD]

i've been slowly reading neuromancer

sheridan gave it to me in like may, and i'm about 100 pages in lol

edit: just to make this topically relevant, i don't buy this ever really happening, and especially not with your actual consciousness being transferred

 

[Hive]

i really think this will happen though... people are CURRENLTY developing the technology, and their is currently ALREADY a long line of people who want to do it...
all they really need is more storage space in computers and it should only be a matter of time...
Most of the top automobile/computer companies (honda, microsoft, etc...)RIGHT now are focusing on android technology, and science has already discovered intelligence mods and how to implement machine tech with the human mind.... a few years ago for example they successfully implanted a small computer into someone's brain would work in tangent with that person's brain, sort of part of it...
I really think though that mind uploading is the next step...
at first people will be skeptical I think you are right, but over time as more and more people are "Successfully" implanted and they see the benefits these people seem to obtain (looks, mind, mood, etc..) jealousy as well as the human desire for life and success will push people towards it...
afterall no one wants to be part of a "primitive/underdeveloped" race, or part of something that is just completely outclassed...
(people afterall judge their own happiness on the happiness of others...)

unless people can define what being "human" even means, if anything... imo this will pass

Also, one more question for ya guys- should discrimination against androids/machines be tolerated?

ps can i borrow that book after you are done with it pocky/hyuga??? ^^

 

[Darxmarth23]

Be A MAN! don't be afraid to take life up the backside! who knows? in the future you yourself might be even stronger than the 'cyber-humans', I'm up for the challenge though.

lulz. just havin some girl troubles; couldn't think straight.

Hmm...man vs. machine.

The fact that this is too far in time to do makes it a very broad subject.
I say that this is unethical because of many reasons.

1) prolonged death.(everything under the sky should "have its time")

2) The ability to do things that we wern't granted with in the first place may ruin some things that keep the society together. A working society needs certain things to function and we would take some of those things out.

3) Religious principles.

4) The ability to clone a cybercopy.

and 5) I believe a machine would have no soul.

and besides, this sounds like something that could lead to corruption faster.

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

lulz. just havin some girl troubles; couldn't think straight.

Hmm...man vs. machine.

The fact that this is too far in time to do makes it a very broad subject.
I say that this is unethical because of many reasons.

1) prolonged death.(everything under the sky should "have its time")

2) The ability to do things that we wern't granted with in the first place may ruin some things that keep the society together. A working society needs certain things to function and we would take some of those things out.

3) Religious principles.

4) The ability to clone a cybercopy.

and 5) I believe a machine would have no soul.

and besides, this sounds like something that could lead to corruption faster.

Very vauge isn't it? and seems like were going to expect our world to be more to the artificial basis and start to observe a completely new phenomena, think about it... Imagine a social life of an average well I'll call it "cyber-human" for now. You could just have so much capacity to think and talk others into subjects that are just ridiculouslly mind-boggling. (But still, Captain Falcon is the strongest human ever!)

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

Hive (and everyone else really), if you haven't already, I highly suggest reading "Neuromancer" by William Gibson, and watching both seasons of the anime Ghost in the Shell: Stand Along Complex. Both of them deal with a lot of the issues that things like this bring up.

I'm most interested in the question of whether your consciousness actually gets transferred over or if it's just a "clone." Sadly I don't really see how it's possible. I mean, if it WERE possible, you would expect that if both you and the 'clone' are alive at the same time, wouldn't your consciousness be some kind of weird amalgam of both of them? It doesn't seem right that just because you assemble a neural network in a specific manner that your consciousness would all of a sudden appear on it. I think at best, you could be some kind of "brain in a jar" inside of a prosthetic body, which could just emulate reality for you if you so chose. And even then you'd still be susceptible to things like multiple sclerosis and brain cancer.

Yes I've seen Ghost In The Shell, very good movie... but the funny thing was the film was based in around the 2000's I think? Not too sure, our world hasn't developed that kind of technology yet. Do you think society would be a better place if they had the memory manipulating gizmos that they did in the anime? Because this concept of technology = God, in my opinion is too overboard. But your right, it would be just the appropriate limit of human modification if you were a "brain in a jar" person, just simply that . But I wouldn't know anyone who would volunteer for such. Would you?

 

[Hive]

But I wouldn't know anyone who would volunteer for such. Would you?

i think i would actually lol ^^ probably not when i'm young though because the risk of my identity being lost I actually thought about doing it for awhile, but alas the waiting lines are already too long lol ^^ (and will probably be way expensive )
but when i'm older... i think the benefits that could be received would outweigh the negatives ^^ I know that's weird... but just the idea that you could live as long as you wanted, and be as smart as you want, to experience any virtual reality or to look however you want.... lol i'll probably change my mind later though I think it will become a very hard thing to argue in the future though....the idea that you could save a terminally ill patient, or save someone from dying from age, or reverse disfiguring accidents... will make this a very emotional issue for some people in the future i expect... in some of the same ways stem cell research is today (i'm not saying they are similar issues lol)
i'm surprised though that so many people would be against it though ^^

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Hmm...man vs. machine.

The fact that this is too far in time to do makes it a very broad subject.
I say that this is unethical because of many reasons.

1) prolonged death.(everything under the sky should "have its time")

2) The ability to do things that we wern't granted with in the first place may ruin some things that keep the society together. A working society needs certain things to function and we would take some of those things out.

3) Religious principles.

4) The ability to clone a cybercopy.

and 5) I believe a machine would have no soul.

and besides, this sounds like something that could lead to corruption faster.

1: Death is unavoidable, everything will die eventually, so I wouldn't be too worried about that.

2: "Society" has been changing since the beginning of time. There's no reason to assume the one we have today is the "right" one and that we should be actively interested in maintaining the status quo. We weren't "granted" the ability to do almost anything we do today, like for example, communicate on virtual message boards using an enormously complicated network of wires, integrated circuits, and magnetic hard disks, powered by the manipulation of subatomic particles.

3: Fine, as long as you don't expect other people to abide by them.

4: I don't understand why that makes cyberization itself unethical.

5: What's a "soul" in this context? If it's a religious thing, then see my response to 3.

Fakeman,

I'm talking about the anime not the movie. It's a 2 season show with 26 eps/season. What do you mean by "technology = God"?
Anyway, I'm not really sold on the idea of 'mind uploading' ever coming to pass, but I'm pretty sure I would do it if it ever became reliable and practical, I dunno I don't really see any reason NOT to, assuming you can have a prosthetic body that can emulate your senses well enough.

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

Fakeman,

I'm talking about the anime not the movie. It's a 2 season show with 26 eps/season. What do you mean by "technology = God"?
Anyway, I'm not really sold on the idea of 'mind uploading' ever coming to pass, but I'm pretty sure I would do it if it ever became reliable and practical, I dunno I don't really see any reason NOT to, assuming you can have a prosthetic body that can emulate your senses well enough.

Woops, sorry I didn't make it clear. What I'm trying to imply by saying "Technology = God" would be that technology will become so complex that it will force us to recieve a higher standard of what we expect in our life, so for instance I have a machine gun that can fire 2,000 bullets per minute. Then we find a better way and new resources/materials due to advancing technology to increase the capacity of that gun and fire power to let's say 10,000 bullets per min (keeping in mind that this is just an example). I shouldn't have said "Technology = God" it should be more like "Technology + Future = Dominant". And wasn't there a movie of Ghost In The Shell?

 

[Darxmarth23]

Very vauge isn't it? and seems like were going to expect our world to be more to the artificial basis and start to observe a completely new phenomena, think about it... Imagine a social life of an average well I'll call it "cyber-human" for now. You could just have so much capacity to think and talk others into subjects that are just ridiculouslly mind-boggling. (But still, Captain Falcon is the strongest human ever!)

It is very vague. Captain falcon will be crushing cyber humans left and right.

1: Death is unavoidable, everything will die eventually, so I wouldn't be too worried about that.

2: "Society" has been changing since the beginning of time. There's no reason to assume the one we have today is the "right" one and that we should be actively interested in maintaining the status quo. We weren't "granted" the ability to do almost anything we do today, like for example, communicate on virtual message boards using an enormously complicated network of wires, integrated circuits, and magnetic hard disks, powered by the manipulation of subatomic particles.

3: Fine, as long as you don't expect other people to abide by them.

4: I don't understand why that makes cyberization itself unethical.

5: What's a "soul" in this context? If it's a religious thing, then see my response to 3.

Fakeman,

I'm talking about the anime not the movie. It's a 2 season show with 26 eps/season. What do you mean by "technology = God"?
Anyway, I'm not really sold on the idea of 'mind uploading' ever coming to pass, but I'm pretty sure I would do it if it ever became reliable and practical, I dunno I don't really see any reason NOT to, assuming you can have a prosthetic body that can emulate your senses well enough.

1: I meant living longer than your original human body would.

2: Hmm. Yet we still maintained as a functioning society...okay i see your point.

3: yeah. i meant that MY religion wouldn't like it so much.

4: I meant to make a clone of your self. I think there would be too many loopholes and it would get out of control.

5: I meant...i really can't descibe it in words....augh....

I apologize. i have really bad english and am always at a loss for words, as of, English is not my first language.

Good points. All of them.

 

[Deleted member]

To quote an even more awesome Del (read: funkee Homosapien)

"Upgrade yo' grey matter, 'cause someday it may matter"

 

[IDK]

Just a quick note: If we are going to use this to extend human life infinitely, what body will we use? Is it possible yet? How is this different than cloning other than it doesn't make a new being, identity-wise. When you move the mind, does the person preserve their memory? Whose name do they get? Could they move a dying person's mind into a healthy body('s clone)?

 

[Darxmarth23]

Just a quick note: If we are going to use this to extend human life infinitely, what body will we use? Is it possible yet? How is this different than cloning other than it doesn't make a new being, identity-wise. When you move the mind, does the person preserve their memory? Whose name do they get? Could they move a dying person's mind into a healthy body('s clone)?

A lot of questions id'nt it?

I can't answer. the presented info i way to vague. limitless possiblities.

 

[Hive]

@IDK- at least what I meant in this scenario is that after a human mind is uploaded it as well as its reality will exist in a large computer... or an robot/etc... that has the capacity to store that much information...

The storage system, artificial body then would would be nearly indestructable if kept safe...
If the human mind did exist in this system then it would be more up to them then to determine whenever they wanted to die, rather than outside forces, hence the person could live as long as they wished...

Its not yet possible, due to the large amount of storage space the human brain would need... actually even the largest supercomputer to date doesn't have nearly enough storage space to store all of the synapses that the human mind contains.... however the hope is that storing that amount of info will be possible in the future... and in fact if technology progresses at the rate it has been lately it will be by 2030.
The other obstacle is finding a way to transfer that information reliably, and finding info on the endocrine system as well... for which there are a lot of theories...

The memory then, as well as all other forms of thought would be preserved...
Would it be a clone? is a good question, and one people aren't sure of, and which I'd like to hear people's opinions on... they can make the transition theoretically just as quick and just as harmless as daily activity, etc... (assuming the material of your brain doesn't matter or an outside force doesn't account for identity)(they can transfer one neuron at a time to the computer for example, making it only as much of an identity issue as when one atom changes in your brain due to learning stuff, etc...) The point is that they can make it gradual enough to make it less of a question whether its actually "you" inside of the computer... Usually the biological system will be destroyed in the process as well to make it less of a question of identity as well...

whether its a clone then or you it would probably want the same name since it has all of your memories and would be used to be called as such

Moving a dying person's mind into a healthy body is a different topic though because it involves more of moving a biological mind into another biological system... and no people do not have this technology for humans yet that I'm aware of...
Anyways, hope that answered some questions

 

[IDK]

So if it's not going to happen until at least 2030 why don't we instead discuss the effects this would have on our society, and if we believe it is ethical?

 

[Hive]

So if it's not going to happen until at least 2030 why don't we instead discuss the effects this would have on our society, and if we believe it is ethical?

exactly what I was hoping people would discuss.
as well as other questions that arise because of it...

 

[RDK]

I definetely don't buy this "transferring the mind" garbage. What you guys need to realize is that there's nothing supernatural about our minds; consciousness isn't some floating cloud of sentience hanging above our heads, or in another dimension. Our thoughts and emotions are completely material; chemicals swirling around in our heads.

There's no real way to separate the mind from the body--they're both as material as one another. The idea that the mind is a spiritual thing is an idea purported by religion and is a fairytale at best.

 

[Hive]

I definetely don't buy this "transferring the mind" garbage. What you guys need to realize is that there's nothing supernatural about our minds; consciousness isn't some floating cloud of sentience hanging above our heads, or in another dimension. Our thoughts and emotions are completely material; chemicals swirling around in our heads.

There's no real way to separate the mind from the body--they're both as material as one another. The idea that the mind is a spiritual thing is an idea purported by religion and is a fairytale at best.

What are you talking about RDK? Or who are you arguing with? I think you may have gotten the wrong idea about this thread
The point of mind uploading is that the brain/endocrine system is just chemicals/neurons/etc... and as such can be copied and that atomic information put into a computer....
i.e. the brain existing as as connections in a computer instead of the neuron connections that exist biologically...
So the transferring your mind thing would be focused around believing the mind exists as a material thing, and would be supported with what you think rather than against it... unless you think there is something special about neural connections being biological instead of in a computer? (however most people assume its the function of the brain rather than the material of the brain that accounts for identity atheistically...) I didn't assume the mind arised from anywhere (material, soul, etc...) and left that up to your guys' opinions...
Realize your line of thinking is why this is possible....

ps also the idea that the identity (i'm assuming this is what you meant by the mind in this case) of a person is caused by an outside factor or in another dimension is fantastical or childlike is a bad approach... in all likelihood you don't have anything to back that up... there are many many ways where it is scientifically and philosophically still possible and even could be probable for it to exist outside of us or in a nonmaterial (or material we can't identify) way, still, we just don't have enough information yet to make a solid statement about the subject... (also if you still doubt me read stephen pinker (neuroscientist) "How the Mind Works" and he will tell you basically the same thing...)
Note also that I usually agree with you that identity probably arises from material things, however we still don't have anything solid enough to back that premise up....
and until then (probably we'll never have enough info) believing something else is still a valid belief scientifically and logically. And as with all science we don't dismiss any ideas until they have concrete evidence against them....

 

[Zero Beat]

What he meant to say is that there's nothing spiritual about the mind or thoughts. The brain is made up of matter, and thinking is energy in motion. Nothing spiritual/supernatural about that.

It is only seen as supernatural when people don't understand it and take a superstitious approach. No such thing as a "non-material" world. Metaphyscists should talk themselves out of existence!

There is nothing to be gained from them.

 

[Hive]

thinking is of course a product of the atomic brain...
however... identity is not necessarily....
and I think this is what he was addressing as well.

regardless though he was wrong in thinking that transferring the mind is a product of believing thinking is supernatural...
In fact mind uploading is mainly possible if the mind is defined by its functioning, a thought that I think he agrees with.... I think he just had the wrong idea of what was being addressed in this thread...
(i.e. i think what he thinks is being addressed is separating a "supernatural" mind from the body like an out of body experience or something... which is not the case...)

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

Ok Hive, in terms of perspective. Do you think a human or animal (any living thing) is still alive if it's mind is still intact but into a computer system? (mind uploaded if you may recall) I mean I'm stilll alive like my pet cat is alive, but what if we were mind uploaded to a machine? would you still count that as alive? I don't even know what to count it as myself.

 

[Hive]

Yes, I would count something in a computer as a living thing...
What I think is "alive" or not to me personally is a matter of the thinking processes of a being (can they retain experiences?, etc..)
and to me even if a mind is in a computer I will treat it with the same respect as if it were biological...

I can't prove that it has an identity if that is what you are asking... however I can't prove that about other people I meet as well... and I think it is safer to treat everyone as if they do since it is the only safe way to be ethical...

To me even if a mind is in a computer it still can experience things, remember things, have senses, think logically and be self aware... and to me then it would still be alive...

Also, there is some debate now whether this world is a simulation as well... however even if we did somehow find out it was wouldn't we still consider ourselves alive?

(as a fun fact I hear that stephen hawking is actually trying to establish computer viruses as living things-
they can reproduce themselves, and have some additional properties that would make them similarly "alive" to bacteria and such... )