Mewtwo, Lucas, and Balance Patch v1.0.6 Predictions? Hopes? Complaints? Vent here!

[ShadyWolfe]

One general change I'd like them to make is removing the chance of getting doubles of custom specials you already have. Its so goddamn stupid and there is no point. I bet most people won't ever experience all the custom moves due to how much of a pain it is to get them.
Buffs

Give less lag on his jab, preferably how it was in Melee. INSTAPUNCH

Increase sweetspot hitbox for lightning kick, make din's fire overall more useful and give fair less landing lag. And they should change the Din's Blaze custom so Zelda can move around more after its placed, like in Project M.

Make Pikmin unable to be reflected. Its so stupid!

Return 's down smash to its former glory. Give fair less landing lag to compensate for its low power. Give f smash sourspot more power.

Buff recovery immensely. Increase vertical lift and steering ability on all up B variants, increase horizontal distance on all side b variants.

Buff final smash. I don't care what the hell they do to it, just don't make it completely counterproductive!

Give aerials less landing lag.

Make less laggy in general.

Give more range on smashes

Nerfs

Nerf. Hoo. Hah. Give uair more ending lag.

Everything.

More landing lag on aerials.

Nerf lightweight. Its disgusting.

Rosalina doesn't really deserve straight out nerfs but a powershift and an ample amount of time to combat her when her luma is gone is needed. Her luma needs to be able to recover if knocked off the stage and have higher health but a longer downtime when it is dead. Rosalina needs her attacks weakened as she shouldn't be so strong without the luma, her damage and power should mainly relay on Luma.

Not to derail the topic, but honestly the whole ballot thing is a waste of time. I don't see any characters coming out of it. Wolf is basically a lock at this point and if Snake was going to get in he would get in anyway. (Not saying Wolf/Snake fans are wasting votes just to be clear.) All the popular characters are either terribly dull moveset wise (Daisy, Dixie, new FE lord/Roy, ect) or wouldn't translate well at all (less popular choices like Wonder Red or Inkling, ICs too). Seems like the whole thing is just to create some more buzz for Smash.

The Smash Ballot is not entirely pointless but people with these wishful hopes for characters that are already assist trophies(Waluigi), part of a final smash(Chrom), stage bosses(Ridley), and characters that are non-Nintendo that have no history with Nintendo(Meatboy), have not been in a Smash game before, not belonging to a company that helped create Smash 4, property of a direct competitor(Banjo Kazooie), characters from companies that do not have a good relationship with Nintendo(anything from EA, or characters that did not originate from video games(Goku) are wasting their time. At the end of the day, Sakurai will decide if he will add that character in the roster so even if a character is the most voted(Shovel Knight) does not guarantee nothing.

What else does she have? She's already just floating around the lower tiers as-is.

She sits around at around Mid to High tier with customs but people just want to complain because she is annoying to fight like a weaker Sonic.

 

[MapleWooD]

The Smash Ballot is not entirely pointless but people with these wishful hopes for characters that are already assist trophies(Waluigi), part of a final smash(Chrom), stage bosses(Ridley), and characters that are non-Nintendo that have no history with Nintendo(Meatboy), have not been in a Smash game before, not belonging to a company that helped create Smash 4, property of a direct competitor(Banjo Kazooie), characters from companies that do not have a good relationship with Nintendo(anything from EA, or characters that did not originate from video games(Goku) are wasting their time. At the end of the day, Sakurai will decide if he will add that character in the roster so even if a character is the most voted(Shovel Knight) does not guarantee nothing.

Xbox said they were ok with Banjo Kazooie

And that triple post tho

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Have you ever played a Palutena using lightweight? Its ridiculous. I think its impossible to escape D-throw -> Uair when lightweight is activated.

Darn, you mean she has a true combo? This game is garbage!

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Xbox said they were ok with Banjo Kazooie

And that triple post tho

Xbox being ok with it does not mean Nintendo is going to be okay with it and that graphic is terrible looking those white flashes are annoying.

 

[chuckthesmashlover]

I think the only third party who has any shot at being a DLC character is Snake. He has the advantage of being a veteran. No other third arty character has this advantage.

 

[Balgorxz]

1)make top10 characters shields weaker
2)reduce diddy's fair and monkey flip damage by 20%
3)remove gnw dtilt endlagg
4)increase Ike's eruption AoE
5)make puffs aerials do higher shield damage
5)give mac his old sideb

There is more stuff but I rather see some slow balancing than changing the game too much

 

[MapleWooD]

1)make top10 characters shields weaker
2)reduce diddy's fair and monkey flip damage by 20%
3)remove gnw dtilt endlagg
4)increase Ike's eruption AoE
5)make puffs aerials do higher shield damage
5)give mac his old sideb

There is more stuff but I rather see some slow balancing than changing the game too much

This post. Precisely the reason I hate game patches.

 

[Nabbitnator]

1)make top10 characters shields weaker
2)reduce diddy's fair and monkey flip damage by 20%
3)remove gnw dtilt endlagg
4)increase Ike's eruption AoE
5)make puffs aerials do higher shield damage
5)give mac his old sideb

There is more stuff but I rather see some slow balancing than changing the game too much

So if we nerf monkey flip...wouldn't that give the players health back. I think at most it does 17%.

 

[X1Type1]

He's also annoying as ****, seriously is there anybody who actually likes fighting Sonic?

I don't mind him since I can just uair him out of spin dash as diddy or fire ball with luigi. Sonic isn't really broken nor is diddy or yoshi if u ask me. maybe hoo hah and sonic's back throw cud get a slight nerf but i dnt want to see what happen to poor greninja happen to diddy and sonic. i mean besides the only real sonic is 6wx all the others are just average.

 

[kirby3021]

I don't want to see Diddy destroyed in the patch. I enjoy playing against him because it brings out my best game. A frame or two more startup and ending lag on his aerials would be nice, but I don't want any drastic changes.

 

[CaptainZer0dew]

I know this might get shot down but, a lot of people want Luigi to be nerfed... and I can agree with them. His combo game is so stupid, his down throw to anything is unbelievable.

 

[The Puffer]

Well, for me:


-Nerf his aerial game (it's a monkey, c´mon!!)
-Make him a little bit lighter
-Buff his up B.


-Buff her, don't know how, just, do it, pls.


-Buff sing so it has more priority and can't be shielded.
-It would be nice if they made her drill a semi-meteor just like Kirby's.


-Make her more unique


-Buff her, nerf Luma
-Nerf her jab combo
-Buff her recovery
- Make Gravitational pull have x1.5 just in case the projectile hits the enemy.


-Same as Lucina


-Buff his aerials a little bit
-Nerf his out of b combo ability (just a tiny bit)


-Are the invicibility frames in his neutral b necessary???
-Nerf his up b
-Buff his jabs (idk)


-Buff his side B
-Nerf aura effect (just a little bit)

/
-Landing lag

 

[CaptainZer0dew]

surprised nobodys talking about luigi... a lot of people dont like his true combos... as well as yoshi, he is really strong, fast and has high smash power...

 

[Putuk]

Make Lucas a fun-to-play character in For Glory situations and matches against friends.

That is all.

 

[Balgorxz]

surprised nobodys talking about luigi... a lot of people dont like his true combos... as well as yoshi, he is really strong, fast and has high smash power...

nerfing all good characters is a bad approach to balance, nerfing top 1 maybe top2 is fine but if not you are just making the game even slower and dull, it's better to have some good characters than none.
luigi is a good character because has good options, benefits from reads(upb,downb) and has solid followups.
also is able to edgeguard with downb

I mean it has multiple options, all characters should be like this.

 

[CaptainZer0dew]

nerfing all good characters is a bad approach to balance, nerfing top 1 maybe top2 is fine but if not you are just making the game even slower and dull, it's better to have some good characters than none.

can they at least nerf his down throw to anything combo? like make it so that the downthrow can't lead to the combos, but like up tilt or something weaker can

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Honestly i think more characters need true combos like luigi's.Like, it'd be kimd of cool if every character had their on uniqe BnB combos and setups like that. The think about down throw is that itAlso nerfing downthrow and buffing utilts combo poential would essentially give him the same gameplan as mario.

 

[Curse Hollows]

As for Lucas and Mewtwo. I think that either Lucas will be top tier considering hes a half way clone character to ness and hes top 10. I found lucas better than ness in brawl even though he was a tier lower and well.. in PM hes god tier as were ness was again top 15. So it seems that ness and Lucas always stick together in tier so i wouldnt be surprised if he camed in real buffed in smash 4.

Mewtwo can be a hit or miss. We all know he wasnt the best in Melee even though he still managed a spot in B tier, but in PM hes also god tier. I think if they litterally SUCKED Melee Mew2 into Smash4 the physics would fit perfectly and He wouldnt turn out as a a bad character at all. If it was PM Mew, hed be over powered. Although Im afraid that if they put Him in with out any of those 2 physics (Melee, PM) hes either going to suk completely or have some wierd Armor/Super Armor frames that will just make me sick.

I already have trouble playing against Ganondorfs and Bowsers and Little Mac becasue of their stupid armor. I hope they take a few frames off of it in Smash4 because with out unlimited tech skill Armor enables small minded players WAY TOO OFTEN. Oh and in the new update Id LOVE to see normal battlefield a plaable option in forglory. Never gonna happen but a guy can dream yeah?

 

[pikazz]

I found something I forgot to add in Jr Buff hope


Gets a better Super Armour on SideB and its on his whole body instead for the lower part of the Cart.
it should be enough strong to run over Bananas, Peanuts, Gyros, Falcos Laser and weaker projectile, but still does take damage from them and can get launch by more heavier attacks

 

[Spatman]

Here we go again, and this time Sakurai isn't holding back. With two new characters coming and a balance patch, how do you think the meta game will shift? What do you wish to see for Mewtwo and Lucas? Also what are your thoughts on yet another patch? Are you sick of all the Hoo Ha or lagless Shiek combos? Want to see more from neglected characters? Or would you be more content with leaving things as they are in favor of familiarity?


As for me, I have a personal dislike for major balance tweaks in fighting games as I find they reward bad players for complaining about a character or exploit rather than rewarding good players for mastering and utilizing said gameplay elements. The only time I ever found a nerf necessary was in Brawl reguarding Meta-Knight's Mach Tornado since that didn't require you discovering anything like Jtails did with Hoo Ha, Nado was just there for you and it was super hard to deal with. I also personally enjoy the Hoo Ha as it has become quite the funny community joke and all kidding aside it really does require enough skill to execute in that it's not completely broken (I mean you DO have to get a read to get the grab whereas Brawl MK you usually didn't have to do much of anything except mash B excluding a few matchups with some of the other top tiers i.e. Marth, MeraKnight, Ice Climbers. Plus I've noticed that most online llayers who choose Diddy can't even do it correctly so really only the competitive scene utilizes it correctly, which proves there is some skill in its excecution albeit basic. Lastly it's not like Diddy is anywhere near as popular as Brawl MK or Melee Spacies in top 16s of tournies) and besides half the cast has some sort of throw into airial attack combo. Maybe instead of removing Hoo Ha they can just give the up air a little less kill power? That's just my opinion though, especially considering I love to play as my favorite little Chimp from one of my favorite games and I would hate to see him end up like poor Greninja (who was actually my main before switching to Diddy post update v1.0.4).

Also are you going to participate in the Smash U New Fighter Ballot? I voted for Issac from Golden Sun. I would also like to see Vaati, Tails, King K. Rool, Snake, Wolf, Paper Mario, Banjo Kazooi (probably not likely but one can hope!), and Shovel Knight.

Simply, square and fair: I love you. Lol

 

[Wtfwasthat]

can they at least nerf his down throw to anything combo? like make it so that the downthrow can't lead to the combos, but like up tilt or something weaker can

Down throw only does 6% and has lag if you miss the grab, luigi has great combo game but can only secure kills at relatively high percents.

 

[Buddy002]

As for Lucas and Mewtwo. I think that either Lucas will be top tier considering hes a half way clone character to ness and hes top 10. I found lucas better than ness in brawl even though he was a tier lower and well.. in PM hes god tier as were ness was again top 15. So it seems that ness and Lucas always stick together in tier so i wouldnt be surprised if he camed in real buffed in smash 4.

Mewtwo can be a hit or miss. We all know he wasnt the best in Melee even though he still managed a spot in B tier, but in PM hes also god tier. I think if they litterally SUCKED Melee Mew2 into Smash4 the physics would fit perfectly and He wouldnt turn out as a a bad character at all. If it was PM Mew, hed be over powered. Although Im afraid that if they put Him in with out any of those 2 physics (Melee, PM) hes either going to suk completely or have some wierd Armor/Super Armor frames that will just make me sick.

I already have trouble playing against Ganondorfs and Bowsers and Little Mac becasue of their stupid armor. I hope they take a few frames off of it in Smash4 because with out unlimited tech skill Armor enables small minded players WAY TOO OFTEN. Oh and in the new update Id LOVE to see normal battlefield a plaable option in forglory. Never gonna happen but a guy can dream yeah?

You can't really say how good someone will be in Smash 4 based on Project M, because Nintendo didn't make Project M.

Mewtwo won't be a pure copy of melee's mewtwo mechanically. His moves are the same, but you can't give a character melee mechanics in Smash 4. He will be good though, as he can act out of Up B and Down throw looks to combo into lots of moves.

 

[Spatman]

You can't really say how good someone will be in Smash 4 based on Project M, because Nintendo didn't make Project M.

Mewtwo won't be a pure copy of melee's mewtwo mechanically. His moves are the same, but you can't give a character melee mechanics in Smash 4. He will be good though, as he can act out of Up B and Down throw looks to combo into lots of moves.

How do you know he can act out of upB? In the trailer he doesn't do so. There he made an air dodge and then a move

 

[Buddy002]

How do you know he can act out of upB? In the trailer he doesn't do so. There he made an air dodge and then a move

Personally, I don't know. I have heard however that he can. (somewhere on Smashboards) Sorry if I was wrong.

 

[Curse Hollows]

You can't really say how good someone will be in Smash 4 based on Project M, because Nintendo didn't make Project M.

Mewtwo won't be a pure copy of melee's mewtwo mechanically. His moves are the same, but you can't give a character melee mechanics in Smash 4. He will be good though, as he can act out of Up B and Down throw looks to combo into lots of moves.

You make a good point about the Project M statement, although~ Him bieng able to act out of teleport is indeed a tactic founded in PM if im not mistaken. I dont know much about the skill and style you can work with with mewtwo OR lucas yet but if theres things like that invested into these newer characters then i defenatley look forward to some killer combos

 

[Shinuto]

What I would like to see are necessary buffs (not nerfs).

There are some characters I feel are extremely lacking in some areas (Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena) that need some buffs to better balance the game, which is Nintendo's goal in creating a more fair battle system. For example, extending Wii Fit Trainer's grab range and/or smash attacks would make her much more viable, tournament-wise so to speak, and allow her to be a better combatant all around. Palutena, on the other hand, should be much more agile, and her attacks should not be as slow as they are. Countless times have I seen Wii Fit Trainer miss an easily accessible grab (that potentially could have called the game for them) due to her inferior grab range, and a Palutena being punished to a KO because of her extremely laggy moves. These are just a few examples of characters I can justify, but there certainly are more I feel need to be strengthened to make the game more fun.

I do not believe anybody needs to be nerfed, and that includes Diddy Kong. My opinion on the infamous Hoo-Hah may be separate from the majority of the innocents victimized by Diddy, but I still stand strong when I say that Diddy is not the best character in Smash 4. The aspect of Diddy's nefarious kill setup is quite simple: Grab -> Down Throw -> Up Air... by looking at this, it may be a glaring option for people to simply DI out of his Down Throw to avoid the Up Air. As reiterated as this phrase has been mentioned around Smashboards, it is simply a vital tool we must consider when being attacked by Diddy. A simple DI can literally save you from Diddy's Up Air when executed correctly (and it is not difficult to do to say the least). If anything, Ness' throw is more of a threat than Diddy Kong's is.

Lastly, my one wish for Smash 4 is to have Wolf return. We finally got to see a StarFox villain make the cut, but for some odd reason, he was neglected and didn't make his way into the newest Smash installment. This is unfortunate for me at least, so hopefully he is purchasable by DLC. He was such a unique character that deserved to move on.

Ok I try DI and I keep getting hit, its gotten so bad that I feel some people are just spouting out this info like they just assume it works....so lets say I get grabbed while playing as WFT and Im at 50% when he grabs me....Diddy down throws me at what points do I start DIing and which direction to avoid the Uair? Cause I hold the stick up and away from Diddy and he still hits me with no effort.

 

[Archimedes]

: Stays the same
: NEEDS BUFFS
:Slight Nerfs
: Be good please
Id rather have the lesser characters get buffs to match the better characters but I understand nerfs happen to make it not ridiculous.

Just dont nerf things that dont need to be nerfed please

 

[derpcube]

As long as they don't butcher megman I'll be fine.

 

[kirby3021]

Nerf Greninja, he's op.

JK! I'd like buffs on Charizard, DK, Robin and Ganondorf.

 

[Drogmyre]

Can Marth get a real sword? Making him use his butter knife is really lame.

 

[Duplighost]

Ok I try DI and I keep getting hit, its gotten so bad that I feel some people are just spouting out this info like they just assume it works....so lets say I get grabbed while playing as WFT and Im at 50% when he grabs me....Diddy down throws me at what points do I start DIing and which direction to avoid the Uair? Cause I hold the stick up and away from Diddy and he still hits me with no effort.

Don't get me wrong; Diddy's Up Air is extreeemely difficult to DI away from (and it works primarily at high percentages). I'm sure you could find some videos or other sites that could explain it better than I could, but to give a generalization, the window is very percise in which you need to avoid it, and it works differently between all characters. It's not a certainty that DI will free you from Diddy's Hoo-Hah.

I believe holding up doesn't DI efficiently. Left or right (depending on the situation) would be better choices.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Reading misconceptions about Marth is amusing.

Also reading people misuse the word lag never gets old.

On topic:

Everyone getting buffed to actually be good and no nerfs is a dream that will never occur. oh well.

 

[☆Jazz☆]

They need to buff. I'll be fine with that.

 

[Raijinken]

Sheik and Diddy down, everyone else up.

Games are always better if balance is aimed at high tiers instead of low tiers.

 

[CaptainZer0dew]

I really want ROBs down air to be nerfed. It has such a large hitbox for something that spikes and it can clip through the stage.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

What I want is a retry option in the WiiU's challenge mode but I can't think of any problems in the 3DS version.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

Zelda's side+B to no longer blow her backwards off a ledge into air paralysis. What a terrible idea that was.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

DK, Zelda, Sheik and Ness no longer get helpless by Non-Recovery Attacks.
Little Mac has Warlock Punch Super Armor (powerful with restrictions)
Dr. Mario's Up-B becomes really good.
You can Fastfall with Falcon / Warlock Punch.
Rest Hitbox is bigger! How I am touching my opponent and he doesn't dies?!
ROLLS HAVE MORE VULNERABLE STARTUP AND BIGGER ENDING LAG!!!!

 

[PCHU]

Sheik and Diddy down, everyone else up.

Games are always better if balance is aimed at high tiers instead of low tiers.

What do you mean?

I think they should keep Sheik and Diddy as great characters and just buff everyone else.
I mean, PM ain't perfect, but it feels awesome playing DK/Ganon/GnW and being mostly able to go on equal footing with Fox/Falco/Marth (aside from general matchup knowledge) without toning them down very much (of course, Fox can't do infinites anymore, which is perfectly fine); I think it'd be fantastic if every character in Smash 4 felt like a really good character, and the changes wouldn't be very difficult to make.

 

[Raijinken]

What do you mean?

I think they should keep Sheik and Diddy as great characters and just buff everyone else.
I mean, PM ain't perfect, but it feels awesome playing DK/Ganon/GnW and being mostly able to go on equal footing with Fox/Falco/Marth (aside from general matchup knowledge) without toning them down very much (of course, Fox can't do infinites anymore, which is perfectly fine); I think it'd be fantastic if every character in Smash 4 felt like a really good character, and the changes wouldn't be very difficult to make.

I mean, opinionatively (but an opinion shared by many, I believe), that games live longer in a competitive environment if balance tweaks are made such that average character strength rises, rather than falls. In Smash 4, that would basically mean leave Sheik/Diddy more or less where they are, and to gradually aim to bring everyone else up to their level, rather than nerf them down.

Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, design paradigms make it hard for that to result in balance. Discussed elsewhere, I've mentioned how it's rather difficult for slow or large characters to hold their own (with comparable if not equal levels of effort and practice) against light and quick characters, in a game where, by design, most attacks will eventually reach killing power, and weight is double-edged by increasing combo-susceptibility as it also increases survivability. In cases like that, I feel it's appropriate to nerf those top-level characters to a lower (perhaps more reasonable, perhaps not) standard of balance.

I really liked what Balanced Brawl aimed for (or at least how I interpreted their project goals on their site). They set Marth (mid-high A tier, I believe, when the project was begun) as their target of balance, and adjusted characters in ways that they felt catered to that high, but not Metaknight-level, state of balance.

Compared to the rest of the roster, I feel like Diddy and Sheik have TOO many strengths, with too few (and largely insignificant) weaknesses. I don't like for any move to be useless, but I feel some may have to be pushed towards uselessness if Sakurai and his team aren't willing to entirely change how some moves function. From a design standpoint, it matters little how significant a weakness is (such as killing power for Sheik, or weight for Diddy) if the weakness can be nearly fully covered by the character's other abilities. Mac's super-powerful ground game doesn't do a thing to cover his poor air game. But Sheik's ability to rack damage (and extremely safe moveset in general) makes up for otherwise poor killing power, while Diddy's stage control options and agility make it very hard to capitalize on his average recovery and low weight.

Balancing any game is a nightmare, and that's why I hope they keep tweaking it bit by bit for at least the rest of this year. I just hope they make everyone as good as, say, ZSS or Captain Falcon, instead of going out of their way to make Sheik and Diddy as bad as Swordfighter.