Mewtwo, Lucas, and Balance Patch v1.0.6 Predictions? Hopes? Complaints? Vent here!

[CaptainZer0dew]

all you have to do is out noob the noob. Just keep grabbing and throwing off stage.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

Guys listen.. Their Just gonna nerf again.

In all seriousness though I'm not sure if their should be any nerfs outside of Diddys HOO HAH of course.
If anything their needs to be some major buffs for alot of the underwhelming characters so that they can go up to par with the viable characters in smash 4 like give Falco lagless SHL's(of course this also applies for fox), or make Marths aerials have less lag, or make Samus have better frame data on her moves etc. I also hope Sakurai actually puts in more shield stun in the game so that we could get more offensive options besides shield pokes for smash 4 but one can only dream

Whats SHL?

 

[ReturningFall]

My guess? They cater to the FG crowd (think GameFaqs).

Diddy gets nerfed to high heaven and falls to B or A- tier I don't think hoohah will be a thing after this, but diddy just has too solid a gameplan to fall all the way to last. Yoshi gets a big nerf and falls to B- or C tier and never wins a tourney...like in every other smash game. Shiek gets killmove buffs and takes S tier from diddy. Sonic NEEDs to get nerfed--he's just got too much killpower for someone so fast and is a bit too spammy, but I'm betting the majority of Sonics lose online and he ends up getting buffed making future sm4sh a campy hit-and-run between Sheik and Sonic. PK fire gets even worse, but Ness largely survives. The other A tiers end up largely unchanged but come out ahead as a result to nerfs to the competition.

Newbie characters get generally buffed. I'm betting this means Link gets weaker, DDD, Lucario and Ike gets stronger. Little mac will probably get stronger. I think in a couple years little mac will be near the top even in the current game. This makes them even more prevalent online. Lucario's runs the risk of becoming the salt mill at tourneys.

Falcon gets buffed. Falcon's probably better than people realize. I think he needs to be played in a more zoning style but he outranges a lot of the cast with his tilts and smashes.

Marth and Lucina get slight buffs, but neither one is going to get what they need to make it to top tier. I think Nintendo got skeptical of those two after Marth dominated Melee and came back on top in Brawl. Fox and Falco share a similar fate but move up a tier.

The remaining characters get buffs and nerfs that look random to us but would make sense if we saw the FG win rate results and maybe the Japanese competitive scene.

Honestly not looking forward to this balance patch -_- If the 1.0.4 patch is any indication, a number of changes won't really make sense. I think the dominant question is whether to allow customs and I doubt Nintendo will take that into account.

Of course, what they need to do is just give Diddy's downthrow more knockback so it's not as reliable and add more end lag on a couple more of his aerial attacks (kinda like Yoshi's d-throw to upair in the very early days of 3DS when people thought it was a near-guaranteed setup), maybe get rid of sheik's ultra-safe fair and we'd be pretty balanced as is. There's a couple characters that could use a lift (Charizard being the prime example) but I think the board has covered those.

As for Mewtwo and Lucas, I think mewtwo and lucas end up as an inferior less gimmicky versions of lucario and ness respectively with the originals being more playable and popular in the end. Nintendo doesn't seem like the type to make really powerful DLC to entice people to buy it and I bet they end up overcompensating.

I am kinda hype about the new characters, but I'm not sure I see what they'd add. Honestly, I think the ballot is a semi-scam. They plan to add a character or two, but are really looking for good ideas with some wind behind them rather than very popular choices (so, no Ridley), hence there's nothing in place stopping, say, multiple voting.

 

[Soul.]

Whats SHL?

Short hop laser (also known as short hop Blaster). Fox and Falco had them in previous Smash games.

 

[SmashRacer]

Give Lucario a little more combo ability while in the air (reducing the knockback of his F-air just a tiny bit as well as making his aerial attacks chain/link better), and remove the landing lag of extremespeed (that hurts Lucario very bad and sets up a lot of punishes), I want to have my combo machine from Brawl back a little bit.

I agree with you. I miss doing his off-stage Fair combos into Dair and Fair combos in general

 

[SleuthMechanism]

give buffs to characters like samus, zelda, greninja, dr. mario, falco, and marth. don't nerf anyone.(Maybe nerf the knockback on diddy's uair but that's it) That would be my ideal balance patch. I'm hoping it's not a balance patch though since they will most likely follow the idiocy of FG and whiners. So my prediction for a balance patch is that greninja becomes unusable, sheik becomes **** tier, diddy gets a huge nerf, and anybody with good combos doesn't have them anymore. As for the newcomers. Despite being a big mother series fan i don' really care much at all about lucas as a smash bros character to be honest. Mewtwo however i'm definitely maining(or ateast subbing) regardless

 

[Tino]

That was the only nerf I thought Megaman needed. My friends complain that its OP.

I don't get it. How is it "OP"? I don't see nothing wrong with that.

 

[CaptainZer0dew]

his side smash can go like 50% across the stage... that's not OP to you?

 

[Tino]

his side smash can go like 50% across the stage... that's not OP to you?

I thought they were talking about Mega Man's up air.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

@ CaptainZer0dew : Not really. that's like saying any good projectile is op. might as well say Duckhunt's can is OP too since it can potentially go anywhere and can KO

 

[VioletSmashfan]

I agree with you. I miss doing his off-stage Fair combos into Dair and Fair combos in general

Same here, although you can still chain Lucario's f-airs at least 3 times (a little bit harder to do due to his new falling speed which now requires a double jump to pull off the 3 f-air chain) but can't link them into an offstage d-air (unless your oppenent DIs wrong and you can land it), but you can set up his extremespeed if you go too far offstage with the f-airs (assuming you have a lot of Aura).

 

[ReturningFall]

his side smash can go like 50% across the stage... that's not OP to you?

Poe's law strikes again!

Mega's Fsmash doesn't have nearly that kind of range without charge and if you see him charging it, it's about as telegraphed as it gets. Countering it is character specific, but it's not like you can't see it coming.

 

[Narth]

Mewtwo
Some thought he wouldn't get a trailer due to more costs, but he did, thanks to the lack of CGI! Mewtwo's trailer was hype, one of my favourites just because of how beautiful he looked! Mewtwo was shown to be a quick, agile fighter in the trailer, and his colours were fantastic. Side B is now a reflecting move and the Up Smash kills! He looks like my type of fighter. Unfortunately, I'm not very good at Melee, so I cannot really play him well in that game, and I also know that he isn't good competitively in that game either; it'll be great to play him in this very different Smash game, the game that better fits my fingers! (FYI, I love Melee, it's very nostalgic for me, I'm just awful at it. Still one of the best games to watch!) His pricing was very fair, and makes it better for those with both games for the prices. I greatly look forward to playing him on a long train ride the morning of April 15th, assuming they email me the codes before 8am BST!!

Lucas
I did not expect much Smash-wise other than Mewtwo, but I did suspect a surprise from Nintendo, and this was it, fitting his tag line of "Lucas comes out of nowhere!". This made me very happy. Before understanding Smash to the extent I do now, I never liked Lucas in Brawl. At a time when I mained Toon Link because I thought using his Dair to spike was super clever, I always used to think he was a little-known clone that should have been cut. And when I saw only Ness was in Smash 3DS and not Lucas, I was okay with that. After playing plenty hours of Smash 3DS and Wii U, I decided to go back to Brawl, which I had grown a hatred for. I began, surprise surprise, to love playing as Lucas! He's different from Ness in a lot of ways, and playing him is very different. I personally prefer Lucas to Ness in Brawl, and I think I will in Smash 4. He looks so much happier now!!

Fighter Ballot
The idea of this was probably the biggest surprise of the Direct for me. Sakurai has always been unsure about doing DLC, and I think we all assumed Mewtwo would be it. But, after Iwata "talked" to Sakurai, we have seen the idea of sull-blown Smash DLC come to fruition. I'm glad to see that Sakurai is listening to what the Smash community want, even if it is against his will. I have personally voted for Dixie Kong, Inkling and after hearing Phil Spencer's comments this morning, Banjo-Kazooie. It will be interesting to see what characters will be made, but I only expect a further 2-3 after Lucas, but I totally want more, and I think Nintendo may again surprise us - stay optimistic my friends!

Balance Patch
I expected this one. Although Sakurai softly denied the idea of more balancing patches, I knew he would have to give in on that one. Now personally I think that...

- Slight nerf. Maybe make some of his aerials take a little longer to come out and attack, and maybe a little landing lag. I really don't want him to become a bad character, I find him super fun to play, but I feel people would still like him with a slight nerf and him not being regarded as OP.

- A little more balance I'd say. I would like to see Sheik's aerials get a tiny bit of landing lag, and I would like to see some of her moves have a little more kill. Not really a buff, not really a nerf, I'd say.

- Little less landing and ending lag on aerials and ground attacks.

- Little less lag on special moves. More DI when falling without recovery, so that he has a better chance of grabbing the ledge.

- Little buff .More kill and less lag.

- Just a little more speed and agility, and less float - you're wearing metal!

- Give her Din's Fire from Brawl, it was a lot better. Again, more speed and agility.

- Much less lag on her tilts please.

Can't think of much else, but a lot of others need tiny little buffs to make them a little more fun to play as. Although I have suggested nerfs, they aren't key here, and they're minor, and I still want to see Diddy Kong a good fighter without being the way he is.

Also, what's up with Tournament Mode at the moment? I've been anticipating that one! Overall, very happy with the announcements. When Smash 3DS was released, I was sad in a way. Smash hype had made me new friends and spiced up my current friendships in a way. I missed it. I thought when Smash 3DS came out, it was all over. Even when Mewtwo was announced late last year, I still had little to hope for. But now, the doors are open, and I'm more hyped than ever.

All aboard!!

 

[Dr.Megaman]

I don't get it. How is it "OP"? I don't see nothing wrong with that.

I didn't say it was OP, My friends said it. They don't like My Megaman. ( I personally love his Up aerial. The Up aerial was the only thing I could think of that possibly needs a nerf)

 

[Narth]

I didn't say it was OP, My friends said it. They don't like My Megaman. ( I personally love his Up aerial. The Up aerial was the only thing I could think of that possibly needs a nerf)

Don't listen to them! Mega Man can be a very difficult fighter to come up against, but it's not because he's high tiered. He has a very spacing sort of play style, but his Uair can scare people because it's a very close-ranged move for a spacing character with a lot of KO power. The side smash is laggy, and his Uair is a difficult move to get right, and it deservedly has a little knockback because of it.

 

[Tino]

As long as I'm kicking ass with Mega Man and Rosalina, I ain't too worried about what anyone says.

 

[Narth]

As long as I'm kicking *** with Mega Man and Rosalina, I ain't too worried about what anyone says.

That's the sort of attitude we need. It doesn't matter if your opponent finds your character "annoying", play whoever you want, regardless of tiers. If you like their moveset and can win with them, play them. Screw everyone else.

 

[CaptainZer0dew]

That's why I play with Ike. Though he's not like my boy Roy, he's one of the most fun characters to play as, and it's always fun to pick him up, even if you lose.

 

[RWB]

I do not believe anybody needs to be nerfed, and that includes Diddy Kong. My opinion on the infamous Hoo-Hah may be separate from the majority of the innocents victimized by Diddy, but I still stand strong when I say that Diddy is not the best character in Smash 4. The aspect of Diddy's nefarious kill setup is quite simple: Grab -> Down Throw -> Up Air... by looking at this, it may be a glaring option for people to simply DI out of his Down Throw to avoid the Up Air. As reiterated as this phrase has been mentioned around Smashboards, it is simply a vital tool we must consider when being attacked by Diddy. A simple DI can literally save you from Diddy's Up Air when executed correctly (and it is not difficult to do to say the least). If anything, Ness' throw is more of a threat than Diddy Kong's is.

1. DI-ing to avoid Diddy's Uair gets you hit by Fair if the Diddy has decently fast reactions. If you are at a point where Uair kills, you will end up way off-stage, and Diddy has an insane strong edgeguard game with giant hitboxes(fair- which kills offstage, most likely), and spikes if you decide to recover low or at medium height, or Uair for the kill if you recover high.

2. Up Throw to Uair is a GUARANTEED setup at certain %s, even with DI, and kills a good bunch of characters outright. ZeRo is a master of this one.

"DI-ing" just takes care of one issue while hardly helping anyway.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Don't listen to them! Mega Man can be a very difficult fighter to come up against, but it's not because he's high tiered. He has a very spacing sort of play style, but his Uair can scare people because it's a very close-ranged move for a spacing character with a lot of KO power. The side smash is laggy, and his Uair is a difficult move to get right, and it deservedly has a little knockback because of it.

You're right! Megaman is a really good spacing character, and skill is what matters in these matches not tiers.

 

[16bit]

Ugh, I don't want a patch. The meta needs to develop with Lucas and Mewtwo, we can't throw everything in at once.

 

[pikazz]

the main reason why I want to nerf diddy isnt because of the HOO-HAH. its because of his HAH and other stuff!

Diddys HAH (UAir) is rediciously strong AND fast!
Diddy can easy HOO-HAH and use his HAH 2 times to make the opponent die upwards. for being so strong, he can do it 2 times when someone airdodges! so diddy can easy do one more HAH if the opponent dodged the first HAH.
Bowser Jrs UAir is almost as fast as Diddys, but its not nearly as strong as Diddys! and Jr is using a Hammer and not a wimpy foot so it should be vise versa in reality, but nope.

I dont care that DThrow is a setup to any of his aerials, since many has a combo like that. but a strong and fast killing move that works at any % is just rediciously OP!
he can also run to a opponent, jump and do a Uair the start at the jump, do it again and kill the opponent with ease

if the UAir get nerf, diddy will still be OP thanks that he has strong ground attacks AND all his other Aerial are strong! all of his attacks can kill while his aerial attacks can kill too (not as early as UAir).
together with his speed, he need to either get nerfed so he is either a slower but a powerful character by nerfing his speed (and endlag) or nerfing the power of his attacks and keep his speed!
also, since he has kill options both in air AND ground, nerfing one of these aspect would make him a fair player, that he is a character that is focus on ground play or air play. it doesnt have to be much, but having all those kill options which can be hit with ease with less to little endlag is a tad OP.

His SideB makes him REALLY easy to recover verticaly, I hope they nerf him that either remove his SideB strong side or that he falls into special fall! that kind of recovering is kinda redicious

speaking of diddy, he is too heavy for being a chimp! I hope they will make him lighter since he can stand against many heavy attacks but still survive

thats all the areas I want him to be nerfed/tweaked in. it doesnt have to be much so he falls straight to the bottom of the Tier list, but at least he isnt have easy time at winning

I also hope they will nerf shiek, since she also have easy time winning thanks to:
she is fast, she has alot of combos and a instantly BF for kills.
thanks to that, she can quickly turn the table around and kill a opponent when the opponent had put her to the corner.
she is pretty much a TF2 Pyro (W+M1 = Forward in Controll stick and A = FTilts and Fairs) with some trick shots with either flare gun or axtingisher.

she can have her speed and power, but I want her FTilt to be 2-4 frames slower and her BF slower start up.
I also want her UpB to be nerf so it isnt a killmove and that the start to teleport isnt invisible to damage and knockback

thats pretty much what I want those 2 to be nerfed

 

[Shrokatii]

Just buff Zelda so you can't DI her smash attacks, increase the size of U-smash, make Bair and Fair autocancel, and make her dash a bit faster. Make Palutena a bit less laggy too, and it'll be fine really. Diddy needs a nerf, imo his range, but if they just make some necessary buffs to the weaker characters, hopefully it'll be balanced enough then (even though this game is really balanced already) so that we won't need anymore patches, and the meta can develop.

 

[Shog]

Falco, Charizard and Zelda need more Air Speed. That's a small fix and would help them alot in my opinion
...
Well Zelda needs better Smashes too.

Samus needs a faster Nair

Meta-Knight needs a little bit more range(like the slashes actually suggest) and it would be fine.

 

[DoctorDub]

This is my wishlist:

NERF:

- An obvious choice, I know, blah blah, let meta develop, blah Melee blah. You asked, I'll talk.

For a start, Up-air can hit grounded opponents. That means diddy can approach someone with a short-hop to a Up-air. For a move wit such crazy KO potential, that's just plain stupid. Speaking of Up-air, perhaps it could be tweaked to be a little less powerful. As it stands, I've been killed by Diddy kong's Up-air at 99% while he didn't even have rage yet. Something is really wrong with that. (inb4 "oh, but fox can do the same thing in melee")

His recovery also isn't even nearly as bad as people say it is. Okay, it's not great vertically (It's still pretty okay), but his side-b basically guarantees a safe trip back to the stage horizontally. This is mostly due to the priority of the attacks that come out of this. I've tried to intercept with a few characters and I can't find many moves that hit diddy out of his side-B attacks (Both the grab and the kick)

- Little bit less invincibility on the Down-B. It's really not needed. I say that as someone who plays this character and has done since brawl.

- This character is basically lag-less. Sheik is just not even fun to play against. It's dull, repetitive and outright stupid when you get carried from one end of the stage to the other for one tiny mistake.

EDIT: - SIDE B KILLS AT LIKE, 90%. WHAT THE ****.

- Just to annoy everyone who keeps making the "better nerf Greninja" joke.

- Please don't be as godlike as PM's Mewtwo

BUFF:

- Oh for the love of god. Right, okay:
Din's Fire: Now has capped range, is slow as hell and predictable as ****. Should be faster and maybe it'd be a move I could hit with more than once every 3 matches. It also shouldn't put Zelda into freefall. That's some grade-A bull**** right there.

Phantom: If it could be stored the same way Samus can store her Charge beam, that would make this move way more useful. As it stands, it's not terrible, but it's not exactly great.

F-Smash & Up-Smash: These moves can be DI'd out of. They're not even that strong. Simply unfair. Change it.

A little less landing lag would be nice, too.

Those, or you know. Another 0.7% extra on uptilt. That, alone, would sort all of our problems out. Top tier here we come!

- Little less time to charge up lightning. Increase grab range by a tiny bit.

- Increased range and have the tipper effect actually work at the damn tip of the attack.

- Decreased ending lag on many of her moves and a bit more power behind her attacks.

- Bring back the brawl voice. Make him a bit faster.

- Also bring back his brawl voice.

- Please don't be as awful as Melee's Mewtwo.

- Be like Ness and get your ass up some tiers, son.

That's all I can think of right now.

 

[ToonKake]

Alll imma say is i jus have a Funny Feeling Dat in Dis "Patch" commin next week or so is gonna nerf everyone & All the Miss fighters & sakurais chars are gonna end up being "Top Tier" LOL.

 

[CaptainZer0dew]

Please nerf Sonic, with that speed, kill power and ability to spam the same strategy of just curling into up air, it's annoying and does too much damage.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Please nerf Sonic, with that speed, kill power and ability to spam the same strategy of just curling into up air, it's annoying and does too much damage.

Agreed, In brawl Sonic's weakness was that he couldn't kill, he was fast and could rack up lots of damage but couldn't ever take a stock until the very high percentages. But with the massive increase in kill power he's gained he just feels more unbalanced than anything

 

[Honest]

Hopes:
- Is actually good (B tier atleast).
- Get's nerfed (Way less knockback and damage on UAir and probably more lag in general on all aerial moves).
- Get's nerfed (Less damage overall and more endlag, remove kill throws).
- Get's buffed (Less lag, more kill power).
- Get's buffed (Less lag on pretty much all his moves).
- Get's buffed (Give him a bit more range on his aerial forward special).
- Removed from the game.
- Wins the ballot.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

his side smash can go like 50% across the stage... that's not OP to you?

I still has ending lag and can be reflected, pocketed or absorded by other fighters.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Am I the only one who thinks Hoo-Hah is okay? Like, seriously, the problem lies in Diddy's ridiculous aerials + mobility + safety. There are some matchups that can be won with literally only SH Fairs. That's ridiculous.

But here's the thing. There is no shortage of Diddys. Not gonna lie, I hate Diddy Kong. But matches with Diddys are offensively based, which makes them more entertaining. The conclusion?
Nerf rolls, increase sheild drop frames, and rather than make Diddy's aerials have landing lag, reduce landing lag of lower tiers. That would make this game more fun and entertaining imo. At the moment, you win more by never approaching. I wouldn't mind that changing.

 

[BBC7]

Hopes:
- Gets buffed (Less lag, more kill power).

Actuality:
- Gets nerfed (More lag, less kill power).

 

[CamZ]

Falco definitely needs buffs.
-Less landing lag on ariels
-Faster running speed
-Auto Cancel Lasers (or faster lasers on ground)
-Better voice actor

My vote went to the boy with T3H PH1R3 of course!
(And screw the haters)

 

[(Buddha)]

NERF
Nerf C. Falcon's Raptor boost anf Falcon kick
Nerf Luma's damage
NERF HOO HA
Nerf Link's dash attack
Nerf Sonics Spin dashs
Nerf ZSS up special
BUFF
Buff Duck Hunt in general
Buff Greninja's shadow sneak
Buff ROB's specials
Buff Doc's recovery and let his cape stall in the air
Buff Kirby
Buff Meta Knigt ALOT

 

[NachoOfCheese]

NERF
Nerf C. Falcon's Raptor boost anf Falcon kick
Nerf Luma's damage
NERF HOO HA
Nerf Link's dash attack
Nerf Sonics Spin dashs
Nerf ZSS up special
BUFF
Buff Duck Hunt in general
Buff Greninja's shadow sneak
Buff ROB's specials
Buff Doc's recovery and let his cape stall in the air
Buff Kirby
Buff Meta Knigt ALOT

Balance game

 

[WinterShorts]

And no one here is complaining about my man Yoshi.........good.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

And no one here is complaining about my man Yoshi.........good.

Well that's because Yoshi was one of those "omg OP plz nerf" characters at first, and then he just... disappeared. Actually, I have no idea what happened with Yoshi tbh. I think he's probably the most balanced character in the game.

 

[DoctorDub]

Well that's because Yoshi was one of those "omg OP plz nerf" characters at first, and then he just... disappeared. Actually, I have no idea what happened with Yoshi tbh. I think he's probably the most balanced character in the game.

Yoshi is still easily top 10. It's just that there isn't much to complain about.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

Short hop laser (also known as short hop Blaster). Fox and Falco had them in previous Smash games.

Thanks Pika-man, I want Watch to get a Buff And don't change Sonic, for god sake DONT CHANGE HIM finally he is awesome

 

[ReturningFall]

Well that's because Yoshi was one of those "omg OP plz nerf" characters at first, and then he just... disappeared. Actually, I have no idea what happened with Yoshi tbh. I think he's probably the most balanced character in the game.

I think that's what it is. Yoshi has no cheese he can fall back on. He's just really situational and really solid. You have to know what you're doing to try and make the most of him and he's really easy to slip up with and lose a stock, which can be problematic online. He's also beaten out by someone in every area. A true middle-of-the-road character.

FWIW, Japan think's he's third best and so Yoshi's probably going to get nerfed again. Unfortunately. Mario might be the replacement. I think it's telling M2K chose to 2nd Mario.