Metaknight should be banned

[cutter]

MK should not be banned right now. He is not dominating tournaments (by dominating I mean consistently winning left and right, and consistent 6-7 MKs in top 8) at the moment, but if that becomes the case, then he'll be banned.

@thumbswayup, and all other advocates of banning MK: I would start running tournies that ban MK, and see what the response is from that. If you want MK to be banned, you can run a tournament with that rule. Hell you could use any rules you wanted; it all depends on the response of the people that are willing to come to those kinds of tournaments.

 

[Taiki]

Yes Mk is a pain in the ***, yes he is top tier, but he shouldn't and won't be banned. I'd like to take a second to point out a built in flaw in every character in the game. The human controlling the character. All any fighting game boils down to the ability to read the opponent and act accordingly. After that comes the specific characters and the options every second of the game. Great characters have a multitude of options at any given second for any given situation. It's up to the player to pick the best option at the moment and run with it, but every character has limitations.

While MK has a large number of options at any given point people still make mistakes. Knowing how to put your opponent in an unfavorable position and keep them there is what brawl is about. Know how your opponent likes to kill with MK; does he go for gimps? recover in obscure ways. Does he love the down smash a bit too much? Jump and punish with the dair, or sheild roll dodge backwards and act accordingly. In any match people tend to fall into certain habits if they believe it'll win the match for them. Watching your opponent's habbits and using that aganist them can still turn around a game and even flip matchups.

So For those too lazy to read a couple paragraphs, humans limit the ability of the character and knowing your opponent's limitations and advatages are half the battle.

Also let me take a moment to say good **** Baky. Your comments really prove that this immature discrimination aganist 08s is misplaced.

 

[Tbagz]

ok if this is the case then..

kirby should be banned for kirbicides.
D3 should be banned for D3cides
same with bowser.
snake should be banned for being top teir and the dash attack cancle.
falco should be banned for chain grabbing.
ice climbers should be banned for the meteor smash chain grab combo.
peach should be banned because shes peach.
Donkeykong should be banned for his 0 lag time for some of his moves.
sonic should be banned for running fast

and heres a great point?

PIT SHOULD BE BANNED FOR SPAMMING PIT USERS!
arrow-arrow-arrow- "oh my god hes getting close to me!!!" HIYAHIYAHIYAHIYA!!!!! SPAM THE C STICK!

im not asking for pit to be banned? regardless he can be cheap?

u get my point.

YOU CANT BAN CHARACTERS. and if one character gets banned in a tournament, it would start a chain reaction and other characters would get banned untill the smash community has imploded in itself.

anyone see where im coming from?

 

[Baky]

Justifying your opinion with Sirilin is reasonable but linking a reference directly and nothing else shows your crappy abilities in a debate.

 

[boss8]

this is not really true. playing a character who requires precise timing and aim like sheik is totally screwed over with lag.

also, the ability to aim jigglypuff's pound up and down becomes suicidal. sometimes the lag will cause the input of left/right to not actually occur at all; just the up/down portion... which means offstage your jigglypuff will use sing and die. onstage (which is when you'll be pounding downwards), you'll use rest and be victim to fully charged smashes, etc.

however, characters with large hitboxes and hard-hitting attacks do very well. your opponents airdodge could be thrown off by lag and BAM, ike fsmash (and the like).

not that this is relevant at all to the banning of characters, etc.... since wifi has really nothing to do with tourney-play...




as soon as i read that, i scrolled up to see "SEXY MARIO VIDS!!!" :D

hey those vids are sexy specialy the 5th one down and the last one....very sexy....

 

[Boat Mode]

ok if this is the case then..

kirby should be banned for kirbicides.
D3 should be banned for D3cides
same with bowser.
snake should be banned for being top teir and the dash attack cancle.
falco should be banned for chain grabbing.
ice climbers should be banned for the meteor smash chain grab combo.
peach should be banned because shes peach.
Donkeykong should be banned for his 0 lag time for some of his moves.
sonic should be banned for running fast

and heres a great point?

PIT SHOULD BE BANNED FOR SPAMMING PIT USERS!
arrow-arrow-arrow- "oh my god hes getting close to me!!!" HIYAHIYAHIYAHIYA!!!!! SPAM THE C STICK!

im not asking for pit to be banned? regardless he can be cheap?

u get my point.

YOU CANT BAN CHARACTERS. and if one character gets banned in a tournament, it would start a chain reaction and other characters would get banned untill the smash community has imploded in itself.

anyone see where im coming from?

then we'd all have to play melee. lets do it!

 

[QNZ_RAFA]

MK should not be banned right now. He is not dominating tournaments (by dominating I mean consistently winning left and right, and consistent 6-7 MKs in top 8) at the moment, but if that becomes the case, then he'll be banned.
.

do you really believe that? i swear this community would stop from banning MK if a MK player won 99 out of 100 tournaments in a given year. then the community wouldnt allow MK's to get banned for 2 reasons. 1...by that time 75% of the community will have switched to metaknight and will refuse to ban him OR 2 they'll just say HEY you see...a metaknight didnt win THAT ONE TOURNAMENT which proves HEY HE CAN BE BEATEN! SO STOP CRYING AND GET BETTER.

 

[cutter]

Also let me take a moment to say good **** Baky. Your comments really prove that this immature discrimination aganist 08s is misplaced.

Discriminating against join dates and post count is stupid to begin with.

ganon: I am NOT against banning MK. If the game degenerates into MK dittos with the occasional Snakes, G&Ws, Falcos, and maybe DK around, then I'd see to it MK is banned. You can't just ban a character without full, concrete evidence that he is warping the game without a doubt.

 

[thumbswayup]

*High-Fives*

EXTENDEEEEEEEEER!!!!!!!!!!!

*High ***** five*

PLAY A REALLY GOOD METAKNIGHT FOR ABOUT 5 HOURS STRAIGHT......U SHOULD BE SET....

lol why on earth would I want to waste 5 hours of my life?

 

[Iron Thorn]

Since I don't really have any good reasons to give not to ban him other than "he's one of my mains, he's a bad*ss, and I like his voice, but I joined in '08 so my opinion is meaningless", go ahead and do it. My only reason not to is the domino effect, and even that's faulty. It's called the "slippery slope fallacy".

...Can I still use him for friendlies though?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

OH MY GOD!

This thread is reasonable now!

MK shouldn't be banned. Should stalling be banned? Beyond question, yes. But a character itself shouldn't be.

And should this be reviewed again in the future? Of course it should. But not in the form of this horrific thread. In the future we will understand this game much better then we do now.

He's good, **** good. The best character in the game? One could argue that, I'd and see reason to it. But banning is a little too much. The game hasn't even been out for half a year yet, lets give it some time.


Now im gunna go watch some sexy mario vids.

 

[boss8]

*High ***** five*



lol why on earth would I want to waste 5 hours of my life?

why on arth are u complaining about metaknight then???

you are diddykong u have bananas...your just as gay as metaknight so wtf???

 

[gallax]

if anyone has ever played m2k then they will understand why MK is so broken. he is a god in human form that guy in smash.

 

[QNZ_RAFA]

Discriminating against join dates and post count is stupid to begin with.

ganon: I am NOT against banning MK. If the game degenerates into MK dittos with the occasional Snakes, G&Ws, Falcos, and maybe DK around, then I'd see to it MK is banned. You can't just ban a character without full, concrete evidence that he is warping the game without a doubt.

i agree. but I PROMISE YOU that's what it'll come to. its only been about a month since Critical Hit 3, JUST WAIT. YOU WILL SEE METAKNIGHT RUN TOURNAMENTS. till he gets banned, i'll stop playing competitively untill this community comes to their senses.

 

[thumbswayup]

then we'd all have to play melee. lets do it!

Count me in.

 

[cutter]

Since I don't really have any good reasons to give not to ban him other than "he's one of my mains, he's a bad*ss, and I like his voice, but I joined in '08 so my opinion is meaningless", go ahead and do it. My only reason not to is the domino effect, and even that's faulty. It's called the "slippery slope fallacy".

...Can I still use him for friendlies though?

Usually, banning one thing doesn't have to result in banning more things. As an avid MTG player, I've lived through the hell of Combo Winter and Affinity. Once the DCI banned the broken cards that were destroying the game in their respective formats, their job was done. They didn't have to ban anything more because the new tier 1 decks were much less broken.

 

[memphischains]

The next person to directly link Sirlin needs to get punched in the gut and told to learn to craft his own opinion, reputable reference or not.

To make it clear, I pointed David Sirlin's book as just a base on the criteria of a ban. Although I agree, Ankoku, The reference was made mainly for people who are confused about the topic and/or who are at a loss for their own opinion on the topic.

It is a good starting point to create your own opinion from the Smash POV. Playing to Win, although directly is for the mindset of competitive gaming, is not a target or has any references to the Super Smash Brothers series.

Compared to other fighting games, SSB is... different, but none the less, reading the section on the criteria of a ban and then applying it to smash through your own experience is the best way to create a consensus.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Count me in.

Let the banning begin!!

 

[Union of Darkness]

if anyone has ever played m2k then they will understand why MK is so broken. he is a god in human form that guy in smash.

That's because he's some kind of robot.

Also this:

Azen's Lucario beat M2K's metaknight...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1FWMDj_wys

 

[masterspeaks]

No good fighting games ban a character. If said character is so broken, the game probably isn't worth playing anyway. When you start banning characters it starts a slippery slope, next scrubs will be whining about how they can't win against snake, falco, or G&W. What exactly is the point of this thread anyway? If the OP doesn't want to play against MK, he can host a tourney with a MK ban. Same for all the other scrubs in the thread. People who use MK aren't trying to make the game less fun for you, they are playing to win. If you can't handle it, you could try playing a different game. Brawl has disappointed on so many levels, it almost isn't worth playing at all. Much less, in a competitive environment.

 

[Baky]

OH MY GOD!
MK shouldn't be banned. Should stalling be banned? Beyond question, yes. But a character itself shouldn't be.
.

Stalling can't be identified intially. Honestly it may take a good 20+ seconds to identify it and that might be just enough for an MK to win. How would you enforce such a rule?


Also, has anyone noticed MK's higher placement on Ankoku's list than what it was initially, or maybe my eyes decieve me.

MK wins are not a problem now but its a potential problem in the future.

 

[Darkurai]

That's because he's some kind of robot.

Also this:

That second quote is an empty argument. It's freaking Azen.

 

[cutter]

It would be interesting though to run two different types of tournaments; one with MK allowed and the other with MK banned and compare data. I'd really like to see what would happen in an environment that is MK-free.

 

[goodoldganon]

There are two ways to look at Banning MK as it is. As has been stated, now that people are used to Snakes unique fighting system he is becoming more balanced but MK is still on the rise. As a preliminary precaution we should ban MK before the game degenerates into MK v MK.

Or since MK isn't dominating the tournament scene we wait until that happens and evaluate the situation.

Personally, I feel it needs to at least be looked into and discussed but I don't feel he should be banned at this moment in time. Of course I feel that time will come but by that time most people will have dismissed competitive brawl.

 

[thumbswayup]

I agree that if the character himself can't be banned, then at least stalling should.

why on arth are u complaining about metaknight then???

you are diddykong u have bananas...your just as gay as metaknight so wtf???

Diddy is easily gimped, Metaknight is not. Plus G@W's d smash kills Diddy at like 80% wtf

 

[Union of Darkness]

That second quote is an empty argument. It's freaking Azen.

Why exactly is it an empty argument? MK was defeated wasn't he? M2K's MK no less.

 

[bludhoundz]

There are a handful of characters that can take MK, even if they are disadvantaged.

Snake, D3, Falco, Lucario, G&W, Marth and ROB are all good enough that 2 equal players, one being a MK and the other being one of the aforementioned characters, will go toe to toe even if MK has the advantage. There are probably other characters that in the hands of the right player could be used efficiently against MK.

Sure, MK is better than the rest of the cast, and it's moreso than with Fox in melee, but that doesn't mean he's unbeatable or so good that he should be banned. The real issue is that it's easy to abuse MK because he doesn't require a super high level of technical skill to be proficient with. MK is like Melee Sheik x2.

Honestly I don't go to tournaments so it wouldn't really effect me if MK got banned, I just think people should let the metagame evolve before jumping to conclusions of MK being too broken.

 

[Darkurai]

Why exactly is it an empty argument? MK was defeated wasn't he? M2K's MK no less.

Azen
Well honestly, I meant that more as a joke, but still.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Stalling can't be identified intially. Honestly it may take a good 20+ seconds to identify it and that might be just enough for an MK to win. How would you enforce such a rule?

To whoever may read what I say: I don't mean to insult MK or any users, please don't start this thread back up again...

Well of course you couldn't immediately. But if he's stalling at 160%, and its prolonged, you can assume so. It really just depends on circumstances.

Something like that would best be left up to judges.

 

[thumbswayup]

No good fighting games ban a character. If said character is so broken, the game probably isn't worth playing anyway. When you start banning characters it starts a slippery slope, next scrubs will be whining about how they can't win against snake, falco, or G&W. What exactly is the point of this thread anyway? If the OP doesn't want to play against MK, he can host a tourney with a MK ban. Same for all the other scrubs in the thread. People who use MK aren't trying to make the game less fun for you, they are playing to win. If you can't handle it, you could try playing a different game. Brawl has disappointed on so many levels, it almost isn't worth playing at all. Much less, in a competitive environment.

That's just it, I don't want to host a Brawl tourny. I dislike the game enough as it is. I go to tournaments because I get a chance to play people in Melee on the side. I'm pretty sick of seeing the same thing at every Brawl tourny I attend. I want MK being banned to be taken very seriously. I know many high level players have been considering it, now we just have to implement it.

 

[boss8]

metaknight aint **** 10whyarewestillhavingthisdebate??

 

[25%Cotton]

hmm....

right now i think it's too early to ban metaknight. i think "whatever committee" decides this should give him the rest of the year at least before making this decision....

but how about experimenting with banning the tornado... or something... and see how that goes before going to extremes. i mean, i'm not like my cousin who thinks banning is "friggin gay", but i still think banning an entire character in a series meant to represent popular characters is perhaps going a bit far... however, if metaknight keeps giving us hell for the rest of the year and onwards, i'm all for the ban!

 

[Baky]

Something like that would best be left up to judges.

I don't think stalling in general will be banned because its too difficult to justify a decision when stalling occurs.

 

[Plairnkk]

Ganon, you can't ban based on a hypothetical situation. The fact that it "might" come down to metaknight dittos. At this point, aside from m2k (and he's m2k so does he really count? not really) all of the best MK players still don't win the tournaments. Granted it might be because all the best MK players live in md/va and we have azen, but still. Our results in the top 7 are usually VERY varied with different characters.

NYC is NOT good at brawl. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not.

Taken from my AIM convo with wes:

dream thieve: all it is is melee all over again
dream thieve: DA and NY will talk ****, then they will never prove anything and nobody can take them seriously
dream thieve: its fine, the smash community as a whole has come to accept this as truth
dream thieve: so continue talking **** in random threads and never proving anything, it is fine

and ending with this

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

quit being a scrub and play the game. If the character needs banning, it will be banned. I have like 10 characters I play and i play exceedingly gay with all of them.

 

[Union of Darkness]

I dislike the game enough as it is. I go to tournaments because I get a chance to play people in Melee on the side.

If you don't like the game why are you trying to sway the community so?

 

[Zankoku]

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have forgotten about the forum rule that states:
Nobody can share an opinion with anyone else, especially if that someone else has their own website.

I'm sorry, I must've missed the definition of "opinion" that went something like:
The URL of someone else's website.

Plenty of people have been able to reference Sirlin and then give their thoughts from there and on what points they agreed with which justified their linking to Sirlin.

Then there's you, who apparently can live in a world where, if there's anyone that "shares an opinion," why bother typing anything? Just link to the first person who ever said it.

 

[EC_Joey]

****, I love Ankoku.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

At the tournament level, meta will always have the advantage if used competently.

I fully support this ban.

 

[thumbswayup]

If you don't like the game why are you trying to sway the community so?

In order to make the game more likable and less gay. A lot of people are fed up with MK's bs priority and lagless attacks and MASSIVE stalling potential.

 

[Vulcan55]

Then there's you, who apparently can live in a world where, if there's anyone that "shares an opinion," why bother typing anything? Just link to the first person who ever said it.

maybe you need to read this thread.
many reasons have already been listed explaining the same things as Sirlin.
You need to stop being so uptight. Just because ****ing brawl noobs can't take anything anyone here says seriously, outside sources NEED to be used to get simple facts THROUGH THEIR THICK ****ING SKULLS.
These critera are used throughout THE ENTIRE COMPETITIVE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, not just smash.
SIRLIN.NET