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MetaKnight: Official Character Discussion

goodoldganon

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Meh, I still think MK doesn't have any significant poor matchups and I'd argue he still is no worse then 50/50 on some of them. Either way I'm no MK expert but I'd dump these new nerfs in Beta 4 for some fix to the tornado since at least 1/3 of the cast just has to bend over and take it.
 

kupo15

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The only solution I can think of would be nerfing gliding as a whole for all three characters. Put a timer on how long you can glide for like 3 seconds. This way you can still use it as an attack and combo but you can't glide underneath FD to the other side anymore. Recovery for these three characters would still be better than everyone else but not godly compared to them. In addition, we can also speed up the glide animation so you can glide quicker from a jump. Just a thought.

The thing I hate most about mk's up b is that he is the only character whose up b doesn't have a weakness. Yes if you use it at the wrong time your exposed but no one else other than sonic (mk's is better) has such a great asset and an additional tactic to use above everyone else
 

shanus

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That fixes nothing about MK. Absolutely nothing.

One of his most **** edgeguards since noASL is just Shuttle looping directly into their up B. He takes damage, they take huge knockback, he gets to jump again.

I think with the shuttle loop knockback nerf he'll be fine.
 

kupo15

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But your wrong. They don't get a huge kb if they DI correctly. DI nerfs the kb a lot unless the reverse shuttle loop to insta ledge snap doesn't work the same way.
 

shanus

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But how does gliding do anything for him in fixing him? Exactly, it doesn't.

Also, even if they DI effectively, the edgeguard with it still often leads to death. And its not a reverse shuttle loop, its a forwards shuttle loop. Do it directly into an opponent during their upB (great examples are fox, falco, diddy, link, etc) and you get a cancelled shuttle with high KB.

(ledgedrop turning shuttle for edgeguarding lots of chars is sexy)
 

goodoldganon

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Gliding, like swimming, footstooling, amongst things, are Brawl unique and we should do our best to keep them. Charizard and Pit sure aren't breaking the game with gliding. MK might be a little too good with it but we can fix that in other ways.
 

Ulevo

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Below is a comprehensive list on the statistics of Meta Knight:

Attack Damage:

Standard A - 10% per round, 1% per hit

Ftilt - 12% per round, 4% first hit, 3% second hit, 4% third hit

Dtilt - 7% at base, 4% on tip

Utilt - 7% at tip, 6% at base

FSmash - 14% uncharged, 19% fully charged

DSmash - 11% first hit, 13% second hit, 15% fully charged first hit, 18% fully charged second hit

USmash - 9% per round, 3% first hit, 2% second hit, 4% third hit

Nair - 12% sweet spot, 6% on sour spot for sword, 7% if sour spot anywhere else

Fair - 10% per round, 3% on first hit, 3% on second hit, 4% on third hit

Bair - 10% per round, 3% on first hit, 3% on second hit, 4% on third hit

Uair - 6%

Dair - 7%

Mach Tornado - The most damage this can out put is 21%, however this does not happen with the heavier Tornado mod on, and I do not have it currently therefor I can't test for it. The damage I am assuming would be around 9%

Drill Rush - The most damage this can out put that I have managed is 6%.

Shuttle Loop - Grounded sweet spot does 9%, sour spot grounded does 6%. Aerial Shuttle Loop sweet spot does 9%, aerial sour spot does 5%.

Glide Attack - 12%

Dimensional Cape - 14%

Up Throw - 12%

Down Throw - 11%

Forward Throw - 9%

Back Throw - 10%

Grab Jab - 3%


As clearly outlined above, the most damaging tools in Meta Knights arsenal are his throws. Every other move save for a few do average to below average damage.


Combos:

Since the main focus is Meta Knights ability to combo in to Shuttle Loop, I will be outlining the set up moves, and how to avoid a follow up with simple tactics. The following set ups were chosen specifically based on a Mario using no DI; if I could follow up on a lifeless Mario, then it was placed down for testing purposes. For accuracy based on percentage specific combos, I will be using the intervals of 10%, 20%, 40%, and 80%.

Dash Attack: Dash attack shouldn't follow up with Shuttle Loop at all. By DIing towards the oncoming Meta Knight and downward diagonally, you will pop very far past the Meta Knight in the opposite direction, completely away of danger. This works at even lower percents.

Dash Attack shouldn't work.

Ftilt: Ftilt has two bases for knock back on the third hit which will determine how Meta Knight can follow up a Shuttle Loop. If you're hit with the hilt of the sword, you will be sent in a trajectory mostly vertical and in perfect range for a Shuttle Loop follow up, assuming no DI of course. If the Ftilt is spaced, and the Ftilt connects to the actual sword on the third hit, the enemy will be sent too far away, regardless of percent or DI.

This can be counteracted by either holding down or away, and no follow up can be ensured afterwords with Shuttle Loop. Since the third Ftilt hit comes out on frame 21, and the average person can react within 3 frames of an action at best, this leaves a huge window to perform this, and is very easy to do.

Ftilt shouldn't work.

Utilt: Utilt can be followed up regardless of DI, however it it is difficult to position this set up, and stops working prior to the 80% mark, and can only reliably follow up at around low to mid percent range.

USmash: USmash works well, however situational. After around 70%, depending on the character of course, it gets difficult to reliably follow up.

Nair: After 36%, the sour spot of this move knocks down the opponents, so all potential for a Shuttle Loop combo is gone. After around 25%, DI will also prevent this from being a possibility.

Fair: Fair can can be completely avoided from not only Shuttle Loop, but any other follow up by holding away and diagonally down. This sends Mario too far away, and he can effectively tech the floor if necessary to either by pass a Meta Knight attempting to pursue, or he can tech away to gain more distance. The third hit box of Fair is the hit box that sends away, and comes out on frame 14, giving plenty of time to properly DI.

Fair shouldn't work.

Bair: Bair is the exact same as Fair, except the third hit box comes out on frame 20, which is even easier to deal with.

Bair shouldn't work.

Uair: Uair works. Plain and simple.

Dair: After 22%, Dair can't be a follow up for anything on the ground. It can be immediately teched because the target will be knocked the ground. To make this occur, simply DI down and away. In the air, Meta Knight can't pursue a Shuttle Loop because of his poor aerial speed, even if you DI upward to prevent gimps. Just DI up and away from Meta Knight.

Dair shouldn't work.

Fthrow: Simply DIing away on the control stick absolutely ruins this as a set up for Shuttle Loop. By the time he reaches the target, he is already able to react, and it shouldn't work at any percent beyond 30%.

Dthrow: There is absolutely no way to follow up on this with DI used. DI down and away, and you're able to tech any follow up from there. It's too low to the ground to even attempt a aerial shuttle loop anyway.

Dthrow shouldn't work.

Glide Attack: Glide attack works very well in this instance, and the only reasonable way to avoid a Shuttle Loop follow up is to DI up and away. At higher percents, depending on the target, Meta Knight may not be able to follow suit. Still works well.

Drill Rush: Drill Rush should never work against an experienced player. All it takes to get out of this move is to SDI straight in to it, and you'll exit on the other side. The move telegraphs itself ahead of time, and the initial hit box comes out rather late. Unfortunately I do not have the frame data for it, but anyone experienced with Meta Knight knows it is a large gap.

Drill Rush shouldn't work.


So what have we learned today? Everyone complains about how easy Meta Knight can combo in to Shuttle Loop. It turns out that he only has four reliable set ups, and only two of them are really useful for competitive play.

Learn to play guys. :ohwell:

Edit: For giggles, I wanted to see what a heavy would do in the event he got hit with Shuttle Loop with good DI. Snake without DI will die at the edge of F.D. at 91%. With good DI, he dies at 157%. :p
 

Ulevo

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Look at Sheik, she dies well at the same percents as MK does now (100% roughly from most characters)
I just thought I would outline how wrong this is.

Ivysaur kills Meta Knight at the center of Final Destination with an Uthrow at 121%.

Sheik dies at 149%.

:ohwell:

Edit: Just for a comparative, I tested this on G&W (since Jiggs on my set is modified, and he is the second lightest character). He dies from the Uthrow at 129%. This means Meta Knight is easier to kill off the top than G&W, and possibly Jiggs too.
 

goodoldganon

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I don't play Meta Knights (at least good ones) but I'd imagine it's the sheer number of ways he can link to Shuttle Loop. I mean you tested this knowing exactly which attack would be coming and the optimal way to DI it. As you have proven it is certainly possible to DI out of most of MKs Shuttle Loop set-ups, but is it feasible for us to expect the opponent to be able to predict what move MK will be using?

That's my two cents. I'd like to know if you think MK is still the best character in the game Ulevo. I surely do, but I'm not sold he needs more nerfs after the D-air and F-air ones he got in Beta 4. He's **** good but he can be beaten. Who would you consider his worst matchup to be? I find that Snake can roll MK. Anyway, I repeat the only thing worth ''fixing' is the Torando since it just ruins at least a 1/3 of the cast.
 

Revven

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I do still think MK is quite ridiculous though. I played with him some today, maybe part of the reason is MORE his SPEED than the actual usage of his moves? What if we remove all the move nerfs (except 'nado nerf) and just reduced his speed back to vBrawl speed and removed momentum for him? Would THAT be acceptable? Or should we just run with these move tweaks and see how he does?
 

Ulevo

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I don't play Meta Knights (at least good ones) but I'd imagine it's the sheer number of ways he can link to Shuttle Loop. I mean you tested this knowing exactly which attack would be coming and the optimal way to DI it. As you have proven it is certainly possible to DI out of most of MKs Shuttle Loop set-ups, but is it feasible for us to expect the opponent to be able to predict what move MK will be using?

That's my two cents. I'd like to know if you think MK is still the best character in the game Ulevo. I surely do, but I'm not sold he needs more nerfs after the D-air and F-air ones he got in Beta 4. He's **** good but he can be beaten. Who would you consider his worst matchup to be? I find that Snake can roll MK. Anyway, I repeat the only thing worth ''fixing' is the Torando since it just ruins at least a 1/3 of the cast.
I can't openly say who I believe is best because that would be an ignorant opinion on my behalf. It would on anyone of us. Do I think Meta Knight is best? He very well could be. I think there are a few others who could be as well. Olimar is one of them. Snake might be another one.

I would like to say though that I don't want Meta Knight to be the character that "can be beaten, even if he is **** hard". That is Meta Knight in vBrawl. I want him balanced. I just see no reason as to why he isn't appropriate where he is now with his current nerfs if you consider the other characters who are acceptable in comparison. If you compare him to say Jiggs or Lucas or Bowser, he's significantly better. But I by no means put the fault on Meta Knight for that, especially when we have the power to improve the whole cast.

And yeah. Tornado needs to be kept nerfed. There are too many characters that have little to no answers to its use, and it distorts match ups severely.

I do still think MK is quite ridiculous though. I played with him some today, maybe part of the reason is MORE his SPEED than the actual usage of his moves? What if we remove all the move nerfs (except 'nado nerf) and just reduced his speed back to vBrawl speed and removed momentum for him? Would THAT be acceptable? Or should we just run with these move tweaks and see how he does?
That is what I would prefer to do. We're not even finished improving the lower end of the echelon yet, so I don't see why we're discussing Meta Knight. I have no issues nerfing Meta Knight further provided he is proven to need the change. But nothing right now can prove this at all.
 

Ulevo

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One recommendation that I suggest we look in to is fixing his Infinite Dimensional Cape. Right now it presents the problem of stalling, and a player isn't allowed to use it as a technique due to the arbitrary bounds of "what is stalling", since there is no actual limit to the moves duration. Two suggestions I have:

1: We put a 2 second time limit on the move.

2: If we cannot place a limit on the IDC, get rid of the IDC entirely.

I would like to see this technique be usable as a non stalling tactic, as currently that is the only premise for assuming the move is broken, or even really good. That said, if we can't place a limit, it has to go.
 

CT Chia

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i personally like MK as he is now with the tornado and flimsy armor nerfs.

he can however chain TONS of attacks into upB, but its not much worse than falcon chaining into strong knee. the kb was already reduced with 4.0 beta so its fine. like mk is still one of the top 5 chars in the game, but hes not the destructive force he was in vB.

the only things i would fix are the IDC (can we just make it so hes invisible for the default amount of time and he can't extend it at all?)
and
maybe make uair have just a little bit of start up lag. not much, just a tad so: he can string like 20 of them together into a upB or something stupid lol
also he wouldnt be able to ledge drop to uair quickly which is a very popular staling technique
 

Revven

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Alright this is what I want to try now since our previous move set nerfs aren't really doing **** to him:

Remove his momentum
Remove his dash speed gain (give him vBrawl dash speed, he did fine with it anyway before)
Aerials/tilts do less damage (lowers priority some and nerfs combo game a bit)
Whorenado startup lag/endlag
Keep Dsmash KB nerf
Keep Shuttle Loop KB nerf

I think with these changes, MK won't be as much of a powerhouse as he is now. Part of his character is pursuing people and comboing, remove momentum and his dash speed gain and he plays like vBrawl MK again with less damaging aerials, whorenado startup lag and endlag, Dsmash KB nerf, and Shuttle Loop KB nerf. This is the best way to handle him as it keeps his playstyle intact from vBrawl while nerfing what made him powerful in vBrawl. MK's power has been speed, if he's reduced to his vBrawl self plus these KB nerfs and etc. I think he won't be as much of a force.

My reasoning: MK's speed boosts in Brawl+ allow him to pursue enemies much better than in vBrawl. He know has the power to run in and jump and Fair/Nair with momentum which can lead into many of his other aerials at low percents. His speed gain helped him exponentially even though we all thought it wouldn't change him too much he really was affected the most by it despite Falcon's and Fox's efforts. Right now, I've been watching some recent MK Brawl+ videos and every time, the greatest difference between his opponent and him are his ability to get inside you with his incredible speed and instantly catch up to you to finish a combo. Take all that away and you have the same MK from BEFORE Brawl+ with some KB nerfs and nerfs to damage and whorenado, the few true problems MK plagued vBrawl with. These nerfs stop his KOs from happening so early and keep him to keep comboing without being able to pursue as easily due to no momentum and gives players a chance to ****ing BREATHE!

No character can combo like MK can now. Getting rid of his speed and putting him back at vBrawl speed is the best method of approach right now IMO.

Thoughts? I know Ulevo that you might have something to say.
 

Dark Sonic

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^^No amount of damage changes will have an effect on MK's real priority (as in, how often his ground moves clank), since MK's attacks all have the "laser" element (like Sheik's needles, the lasers...ect?) and will not clank.

What we could do to remedy this is give all of MK's attacks some different element so that they function like other similarly disjointed attacks. Might I suggest...SLASH!? (it only makes sense right?)
 

Revven

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^^No amount of damage changes will have an effect on MK's real priority (as in, how often his ground moves clank), since MK's attacks all have the "laser" element (like Sheik's needles, the lasers...ect?) and will not clank.

What we could do to remedy this is give all of MK's attacks some different element so that they function like other similarly disjointed attacks. Might I suggest...SLASH!? (it only makes sense right?)
I think Leaf mentioned a method to change MK's priority to work like everyone else's but, it would allow him to clank with projectiles (which would be... too good). It's a double edged sword.
 

Dark Sonic

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^^MK has absolutely no problems dealing with projectiles anyway. And with his moves typically doing like 4 damage per hit, he'll be getting outprioritized and clanking all over the place. It's a very, very good nerf for his entire ground game IMO. Most characters could just tear through his tilts with....their own tilts lol. Jab, f-tilt and d-tilt would get destroyed by other ground moves, limiting their uses to only punishing missed attacks or outspeeding them (as in, if another hitbox is there, MK will lose). Sounds like a good trade to me.

And leave his aerials having laser priority, since aerials don't clank anyway and thus it doesn't help him in any way there.
 

Ulevo

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Thoughts? I know Ulevo that you might have something to say.
Sure.

No character can combo like MK can now.
This is false.

Aerials/tilts do less damage (lowers priority some and nerfs combo game a bit)
This is wrong.

I think Leaf mentioned a method to change MK's priority to work like everyone else's but, it would allow him to clank with projectiles (which would be... too good). It's a double edged sword.
This would do nothing but improve Meta Knight by allowing him to override projectiles. It would not change the way characters can compete with him. His attacks are disjointed. Marths attacks do not have transcended priority, and characters do not effectively nor safely clank with his most of the time because their hurt box is exposed significantly more.


That said, I don't really care. Go about your discussion.
 

Dark Sonic

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^^That last part only applies to Marth's aerials Ulevo. Marth's ground moves clank all the time. It is only the ground attacks that we would change, not the aerials (no point in changing them because aerials don't clank in the first place).

Coupled with MKs very low damage output per hit (on grounded attacks anyway), his attacks would easily clank with or be overriden by the majorty of attacks in the game. So he couldn't jab or f-tilt someone out of their smash (jab wouldn't even work on the majority of tilts), and you could break through his f-tilt with ease. I think it's worth a shot since all that he gains is....the ability to use grounded attacks to clank with projectiles (half the time you'd rather sheild anyway, since the sheildstun is typically shorter than the lag from clanking)
 

shanus

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So i have a very interesting nerf for MK cooked up.

First let me sum up what ive done.

Shuttle Loop sucks till high %s.
MK Downsmash is slower
MK downsmash doesn't kill anymore
MK Whorenado can't change vertical height

And here is the new one to address his priority issue:
The first hitbox of MK's fair does no flinch frames, only damage, no knockback. Thoughts? Its that or I edit like 50 hitboxes to go from attackID Slash to Hit.
 

goodoldganon

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No flinch on F-air could hurt his gimp game. I try to avoid MK discussions since no one in my group is good with him, but this all seems a tad excessive. What percentage is Shuttle Loop KOing at now? What about D-smash?

It seems like we are building MK to be a combo, gimp character but isn't that how Sheik plays? (No one really plays her either.)
 

Ulevo

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No flinch on F-air could hurt his gimp game. I try to avoid MK discussions since no one in my group is good with him, but this all seems a tad excessive. What percentage is Shuttle Loop KOing at now? What about D-smash?

It seems like we are building MK to be a combo, gimp character but isn't that how Sheik plays? (No one really plays her either.)
You can't gimp with Fair.

I was under the impression we were to improve or nerf characters, not make judgement calls on how they should play.

That said, I suggest we make Bowser a fast combo character that dies early, and make Fox a tank. Thoughts?
 

shanus

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It doesn't do it on his whole fair, its on PART of his fair. The edge tip part, not the interior. In effect, its a way to shrink the hitbox size while the move still connects as normal.

In fact, his fair hitbox comes in pairs per swing.

So for 3 swings he has 6 hitboxes, an outer edge and interior. I was making the outer edge of the first and second hit do damage and no flinch. In effect, if we wanted to shrink his fair hitbox, we could make the outer edge do NOTHING at all.
 

goodoldganon

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What type of hit ID is the Tornado? A nerf in power to his D-smash, Shuttle Loop, and an easier to clank Torando are all MK ever really needed. The last set I used the Shuttle Loop was way too weak. From my time playing MK was a combo character that combo'd well into his finisher. We have stripped him of his finishers power in my eyes. *shrug* I'm gonna go get a pizza be back in 30.
 

shanus

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ganon, shuttle loop is weak at low percents. At high percents it still kills no problem.
 

leafgreen386

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If you wanted mk's tornado to clink more... you would make it do more damage. Which I don't think is something we want to do. Currently, it's very easy to override any one particular hitbox it has, but the next one still comes out regardless, and it comes out fast, which is why the tornado outprioritizes so many things; it has speed and repetition.
 

CT Chia

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i dont think the upB is much of a prob. it was already weakened a tad. even though it can kill early, u can also survive it till rly high percents with proper DI
tornado was more of a problem, but the gravity nerf to it helps balance it a lot
 

Ulevo

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i dont think the upB is much of a prob. it was already weakened a tad. even though it can kill early, u can also survive it till rly high percents with proper DI
Actually, it kills earlier now, even with proper DI. It's just scrub free, and won't kill you for all those players out their who like to do absolutely nothing when getting hit by attacks.
 

Revven

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Mmmkay, here's the MK plan.

Ignore people who complain about MK as we already know what he is capable of. Don't nerf him any further until we have everyone we feel needs changing is DONE being changed. When that is done, THEN we can review MK, like have one huge match-up discussion to see how each character stacks up to MK or some type of MK review. After reviewing MK and he is still overpowered, we give him some more nerfs, if he is not overpowered and there are some legit counters to him (which I believe right now there are some we just don't know it yet) then we don't nerf him some more.

The MK review obviously won't happen for awhile, given we don't finish character changes by June.

I just wanted to post this was all. It only makes sense that we should wait to give MK any more nerfs as characters right now are rapidly changing (some are anyway) so who knows what type of a change a character can get that has an edge against MK. (I'm personally of the opinion right now that Kirby VS. MK is 50:50, I swear).

Sounds good to me.
 

Kaotical

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I have a solution that I discussed with Cape to fixing Metaknight. This might sound familiar.

Now I am a Metaknight main and I play constantly with Cape (like last weekend for example). I don't post much cuz I discuss things with Cape, but here I am now.

Metaknight's playstyle is awesome, I love it, and I think it should be unchanged from where it is now. I know people have discussing more possible fixes to his moves and such but I think that's not where the attention should be.

Bowser had a thick skin code and it got removed. I think we should do something that's the reverse of that for MK. Increase the damage he takes but decrease the knockback he receives, but balance it out.

EX: If MK has a knockback and damage ratio of 5(kb):5(dmg), then change the ratio to 4:6.

MK will take more damage but take the same knockback in the end. What this does is MK will reach his own kill percentage faster than other characters and this won't detriment his playstyle really badly. MK will be like Akuma in the Street Fighter series; he has a good array of moves that let him keep up with the rest of the cast but a low, detrimental health bar. People who play SF4 know what I'm talking about...imagine Akuma vs Zangief and have Zangief hit his Ultra on Akuma...GG.

So what I'm trying to say here is leave his moves with the current changes but change his base stats. Make his KB/DMG ratio a 4:6 instead of everyone else's 5:5. I'm all for this change as I play Akuma in SF4, and I know it will work out.
 

shanus

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why do we need to nerf Metaknight again? We have -zero- tournament results with him, and not one ounce of proof he is broken anymore. People need to step back and let things develop a bit more :-\

Just because people have a ******** amount of hatred for him from vBrawl doesn't mean we didn't do our job right. We nerfed a lot of broken aspects about him. His kill moves are all gone save for gimping and first hit nair. His whorenado is far less versatile. Meanwhile, every other character has improved dramatically. Your nerfing him into oblivion without any proof he needs to be worse.
 

kupo15

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His move set is still broken. The way they function is still the best set of moves that have an answer to everything and are extremely versatile. Just nerfing kb means that the pain will endure longer. I think its a good idea =\
 

The Cape

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While I do love Kaotical's idea as its very solid and a great way to handle one of the game's best two characters a better idea may just be to buff Falcon some more.
 

Kaotical

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Cape might have the right idea, and Shanus proves a point. I've only seen results from one tourney, the one that ChuDat won with IC's.

Well, in the future, if people feel that MK should be "messed with", I feel my idea would be a good one. Other than that, yeah, more tourney results needed I guess.
 

Revven

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The reason there aren't any tourney results of MK yet is because nobody uses MK in a tourney because they either feel he is nerfed too much (when he isn't) or don't want to ruin Brawl+ or ruin their MK skill.

MK is still really, really good. I just don't want to touch him until we're done with everyone else... it seems silly to keep focusing on him while leaving everyone else in the dust.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
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Shall we revisit this abysmal character and look at some ways to nerf/buff him like we did Marth for the future?

I think it's worth investing time into, considering we did it to MARTH of all people why can't we do the same to MK?
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
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テキサス、アメリカ
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GHNeko
Because Brawl+ actually has active Marth+ mains that know their character well enough to do something like that.

Not MK- mains.

IIRC, I'm the only one who uses MK as a tourney character. :V

As he's my secondary to cover the shared and main weaknesses of my mains, Marth and Mario. V:

Only other MK- main I can think of is Mr.0 and he's mad inactive and doesnt seem like he's that knowledgeable enough to do something like this.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Meta Knight should be the last character we design cause frankly he is gonna be the hardest. I think we have to come to grips with the fact he is just gonna have to **** unless we knock him down to mid tier. He can't be just 'pretty good'. PSA should give us the power to really work with his moves cause frankly the only nerf he has right now that works exactly like we want it is the nerf to Nado.
 
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