MetaKnight: Official Character Discussion

[KishSquared]

Discussion for the Broken One. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. No changes will be made without three votes.

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:
Less KB resistance (The Cape, Kish2[1.1])

Default Physics:
SH: .85
FH: .90
FF: 1.3
DGrav: 1.1
Grav: .95

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:
Dsmash: More ending lag (shanus, LG386, Kish2)
Tornado: Make heavier (shanus, LG386, Kish2)
UpB: Less KB (Kish2, LG386, TheCape)
UpB: Ratio'd KB (Chibo)
Glide Attack: More landing lag (Kish2, LG386, TheCape)

Anything else:
Fix Infinite Dimensional Cape
Longer for MK to get out of hitstun (LG386)

 

[shanus]

I love MK with the current settings:

SH: 0.85
FH: 0.90
FF: 1.30
DGrav: 1.10
NormGrav: 0.95

His gameplay is still preserved, he can still SH dairs to jumps (tight frame window which is nice) or land, (can't double uair or dair anymore), but i feel thats a good thing.

Also, he dies earlier now, which I thikn is a definite plus. He plays great, moves great, and definitely doesn't feel OP.

I think his whorenado change we implemented is awesome, I think maybe we should add a TAD more weight in the middle of it though.

The added downsmash lag is perfect I think. Can't spam it too much, and does its job well.


Conclusion: I don't think he needs more modifications besides whorenado mod.

 

[The Cape]

Maybe reduce his weight a bit more. Weight, not physics.

Do we need to address Shuttle Loop?

Also, most importantly, what do we do about the infinite dimensional cape?

 

[KishSquared]

Infinite cape should be fixed. It's a TO nightmare to try to enforce that ban.

Shuttle Loop needs less KB. Not a lot, it should still be a kill move for him.

What about adding some landing lag to his glide attack?

 

[leafgreen386]

I can agree with every one of these suggestions so far. A big part of the reason mk is so broken is that not only can he combo, but all of his kill moves are near lagless and are easily spammable.

For the cape, we could probably put a timer on how long you're able to stay invisible.

Oh, and KS, when cape suggested changing his weight, he meant changing mk's launch resistance, not fall speed. While we're at it, we should try to set his division constant to be a little higher so that he takes longer to get out of hitstun, as with less weight and more floatiness, he'll become harder to combo.

 

[Foxy]

I like the fall speed - I've always thought making MK a fastfaller is the way to go.

Stopping IDC sounds like a good idea as well.

 

[shanus]

Hold off on the shuttle loop nerf until we see the effects of our current nerfs

 

[CT Chia]

the way the knockback works for the shuttle loops needs to be changed. not necessarily knockback per say, but how it works. some attakcs if you imagine the knockback they give when the opponent is at a certain percent is the explaination for this. its kinda like, do you wonder why a gdorf in homerun mode will use the warlock punch to finish instead of the bat? at low percents the bat has a higher knockback, but at high percents the warlock punch has more knockback, sort of like:

Ideally, it makes most sense logically for attacks to have little knockback when at low percents, then steadily increase the knockback that is given as % increases like:

Most attacks are like this (except for some such as set knockback attacks or some near set knockback or slow growth attacks like ROB's dthrow). However MK's shuttle loop also barely changes in knockbak, but its original knockback even at 0% is so ridiculously high, it has more knockback than any other attack at 0% by far.

If DI'd wrong, the shuttle loop can definitely kill at 0 or other ridiculously low percents. The other odd thing about it is that DI seems to greatly effect your trajectory when being hit by a shuttle loop, much more so than most attacks. If you DI the shuttle loop attack upwards, you can live it even at fairly high percents, but if you dont DI or DI away, thats when the disastrous attack can kill at nearly any percent.

Normally this isn't too much of a problem, but not only is this some regular attack, it's fast, has some frames of invincibility or super armor if im not mistaken at the beginning, is somewhat tough to counter, can be done out of shield, is also a recovery attack, and can be combo'ed into and is tricky to where its tough to always DI it perfectly.

 

[The Cape]

So we should change the base knockback of Shuttle loop to be much lower. It would still be an excellent move, but not so stupid of a kill move. Still gives him the combo and edgeguard game he has, but it wouldnt have this overpowered move to assist it.

Squared, I agree with your points for nerfing shuttle loop KB and adding lag to Glair. I thought I had mentioned those points, but I guess that was at the Brawl+ Brigade threads.

Also, Leaf is correct, I wanted to change Metaknight's weight, not his physics. The physics Shanus has are excellent, Metaknight just needs to be easier to KO. Since Meta is so **** hard to hit, each hit should be more of a reward.

 

[leafgreen386]

Chibo, in actuality, the "ideal" attack you listed there reflects the launch speed of every attack in the game - attacks with higher base knockback have a higher y-intercept, while attacks with a higher growth rate have a steeper slope. lol

As far as what the actual knockback looks like, though, it actually would be more of a parabola. I've done some research into knockback before, found here. I never was able to confirm if the x value I listed was in fact a constant or not, but colin did mention to me once that it appears the characters all have the same knockback degradation value, so it probably is a constant of 115, after all. Which would mean that a larger initial launch value would result in a much larger knockback (since it would not only be a large value to start with, but it would also take longer to degrade the launch speed).

You probably didn't care about any of that, but... whatever.

It all comes down to mk's shuttle loop killing stupid early because it has too high of a base launch speed, that we should fix.

 

[The Cape]

What about a bit more winddown on bair and fair? Just enough to make them less stupid?

 

[shanus]

Not yet Cape :-P. Let's wait to see if he still dominates hard. Especially after the shuttle nerf.

 

[The Cape]

I still like the idea of making Metaknight do 300% more damage per hit. Then making him die when he gets hit by anything with knockback.

Serious, the Juggernaut Metaknight. Sounds like the coolest thing ever. You either perfect stock someone, or you die.

 

[KishSquared]

Updated, sorry for the confusion Cape. I agree with reducing his KB resistance. He needs to die easier. I'll toss out 1.1 for KB increase, anyone agree/disagree? Did I do the value right, or should I say .90 for making him easier to kill?

Juggernaut-style MK is absolutely a code that should be developed for fun.

shanus, MK is about the only character I'll say this about, but I'd rather see him TOO nerfed to start with. We can always raise him back up, but one major frustration for vBrawl players is MK dominance. Whacking him with too many nerfs might actually be a good thing, and again we can always buff him later if needed.

 

[shanus]

Alright KS, I say once the knockback code is up, we will reduce the initial knockback on his shuttle loop. However, I think that is the last nerf which should touch MK before release.

 

[Kaotical]

I just found out that I can get in this room!

I like the way MK is right now. He feels like he normally does in vBrawl, but he's got some little things which make him not as ****-tastic. Awesome.

I know everyone's on the bandwagon for nerfing Shuttle Loop (me included), but what about adding more KB to the glide-attack? Not too much, but enough to make it where he can't combo with it. Shuttle Loop > Glide Atk is one of his most famous combo's now. It's not really a great kill move anyway...it just mainly serves as making Shuttle Loop safe.

I haven't played him a whole lot in the brand new codeset yet, but I'm pretty much waiting for the next one to play him again.

 

[kupo15]

Add kb to the glide attack? That makes no sense to me. Nerf the shuttle loop kb but buff the glide attack? Glide attack isn't a kill move, do you want to make it one? There is no reason why mk should get buffs of any kind

 

[shanus]

Add kb to the glide attack? That makes no sense to me. Nerf the shuttle loop kb but buff the glide attack? Glide attack isn't a kill move, do you want to make it one? There is no reason why mk should get buffs of any kind

Glide attack is a kill move.......

 

[The Cape]

Maybe add horizontal knockback to it so it doesnt send roughly straight up?

 

[KishSquared]

What about just adding landing lag to the move? Is that possible

 

[Almas]

Not easily, I don't think.

 

[The Cape]

So after finding out the specifics of the MK flimsy armor code I think we need to fix it.

What it does is increase the KB of each move on MK. This makes it slightly harder to combo him and even though he dies easier, he is harder to rack damage on.

Someone suggested before (I think Leaf) to make him a FFer, then buff his jumps to compliment the new faster falls. This hurts his ridiculous recovery a bit and makes him easier to combo. Make him a lighter weight and about Link's physics for falling. This way we can combo him more off of a hit, and kill him much easier.

If we do that I would then like to see all the nerfs on him taken off except to give the Tornado landing lag (instead of the current nerf). This means that he cannot spam his most broken move and he is the Glass Canon he should be. He will straight up **** anyone, but be comboed to death by any competant player.

Everyone like that idea?

 

[shanus]

to make him feel like a fast faller and get combo'd you'd have to effectively bring him up to falcons level, which would increase survivability by a bunch off the top bringing him back to the weight he was before practically. But it lets him string more.

 

[Ulevo]

I hate the idea.

On a logical note, I don't think it is a good idea.

It is understood that Brawl Plus does not have a tier list in effect, nor is one currently in production. However, it is to be understood that characters under the general consensus of being in the High Tier or Top Tier classifications are not to be discussed for alterations of modifications (excluding extreme circumstances, e.g. Pikachu's down throw) until an effective tier list is produced. Should a member motion for an alteration upon a character that is on a majority accepted to be higher than Mid Tier, they must justify reasons for why this change is acceptable, as well as reasons to suggest that the character in question isn't above Mid Tier. This is to ensure that characters are not neglected within specific areas of the assumed tier list, and that characters presumably lower on the echelon can receive the appropriate balancing modifications to become competitively viable.

I am starting to find holes in Meta Knights game currently in comparison to the other characters in Brawl Plus, and currently aside from Ice Climbers (infinites), he is the only character anyone is even concerned about nerfing, despite the fact that he has received three nerfs already.

This to me screams as bias, and I really suggest more of you actually pick up and use him effectively against someone who knows these problems associated with him.

If you feel the need for me to elaborate on the problems associated with him at this time I will, however as posted in the sticky, we shouldn't even be considering tampering with Meta Knight any more. What is the point in doing so? He's proven to be a solid character, and there is no data to suggest he is over powered in Brawl Plus. Leave him.

 

[The Cape]

By changing his weight, could we also affect his ability to be KOed off the top?

Also, consider that in Melee (lulz) Fox and Falco were relatively hard to kill off the top but got REAMED off the side. We could make MK into something like that.

I want to see him **** face on the stage, and then get ***** back super hard.

Glass cannon all or nothing character.

Edit:
Ulevo, I am basically saying to take him back to standard MK from Brawl+
Then putting the grav and weight changes on him.
This will make him MORE beastly on the stage, but also relatively easier to kill.

I like the idea alot personally.

 

[Ulevo]

Why? Exactly what issue is there with the way he is currently? The problems associated with his character have already been rectified to very reasonable extents. And not only are you suggestion we give him more shackles to his character, but you're also promoting to give him added changes that will make him in to a different style of character, for no reason.

He isn't a difficult character to combo, and combos are not a necessity on Meta Knight in order to kill him because of how early he dies. Increasing the gravity would likely serve to kill him sooner, and this is to be counteracted by your assumption he will combo easier. With what? He can't effectively combo with anything aerial, all of his combo moves are strictly ground based except for Drill Rush and Glide Attack, which take no accountability in to the gravity change at all.

Justify why this change should be made, or leave him.

 

[The Cape]

Ok. Metaknight is officially a broken character. Plain and simple.

I have video evidence to prove it that I should be able to upload tomorrow.

I think a good fix for him would be the following:
Take him back to no changes when we got to Brawl+
From there do this:
- Make him do 3/4 damage on all attacks
- Give tornado landing lag
- Less KB on Shuttle Loop

Makes him play exactly the same and be a combo beast, but he wont dominate all day.

 

[Ulevo]

Ok. Metaknight is officially a broken character. Plain and simple.

I have video evidence to prove it that I should be able to upload tomorrow.

I think a good fix for him would be the following:
Take him back to no changes when we got to Brawl+
From there do this:
- Make him do 3/4 damage on all attacks
- Give tornado landing lag
- Less KB on Shuttle Loop

Makes him play exactly the same and be a combo beast, but he wont dominate all day.

Exactly what is this supposed to accomplish? I've already outlined it for you. And your changes are terrible.

1: Flimsy Armor is an infinitely more useful code to adapt to Meta Knight than 3/4 damage.

2: Tornado lag? Why? So he can rise with it and mess up match ups again? The heavy weight it currently has is a better option.

3: Less knock back on Shuttle Loop? Do I need to give you more examples on why this move isn't in need of a knock back reduction? DI severely damages this move. Learn to DI Cape.

 

[The Cape]

You need to post videos of you playing Metaknight.

I seriously dont understand how you think he isnt broken but the entire rest of the community does. My MK is currently undefeated and ***** people into the ground all day and all night.

I have video evidence to back up all my claims that should be up tomorrow. I want to see you post some match videos to show me why you dont think he is broken.

 

[Ulevo]

You need to post videos of you playing Metaknight.

I seriously dont understand how you think he isnt broken but the entire rest of the community does. My MK is currently undefeated and ***** people into the ground all day and all night.

I have video evidence to back up all my claims that should be up tomorrow. I want to see you post some match videos to show me why you dont think he is broken.

This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

You don't prove a character is broken via a few videos playing against nothing but your friends. You prove a characters worth via tournament results and character data, which clearly are either unavailable at this time, or you're not providing at all. Every point you've made I've shot down with evidence, and all you have to give me is "My Meta Knight *****" or ridiculous remarks like "M2K uses it, it must be good!" You're also the only person that as of late has insisted on making drastic changes to this character repeatedly.

Post your videos, and I will gladly critique you and your opponents.

 

[The Cape]

Fair enough. Have videos of people that were beating my mains getting three stocked by MK.

I want to see your match videos because I believe that the people you play with know how to handle Metaknight extremely well and you cannot compensate to match it. The character is too ridiculously good in every way and you just dont see it which makes no sense to me.

Also, I know how to DI. I know how to DI quite well and the problem with shuttle loop isnt that you can DI it well to avoid it. Its that its nearly impossible to DI in the correct direction (since the **** thing launches in like 5 directions) on reaction to its impossibly fast startup.

 

[Ulevo]

Fair enough. Have videos of people that were beating my mains getting three stocked by MK.

What is your point here? This does not prove Meta Knight is broken.

I want to see your match videos because I believe that the people you play with know how to handle Metaknight extremely well and you cannot compensate to match it. The character is too ridiculously good in every way and you just dont see it which makes no sense to me.

Cape, I play the character significantly more than you do, and have done. I know the character better than you, and have proven so previously. Almost every point you've brought up to outline why Meta Knight is too powerful has been wrong, and I have been the one to correct you.

Also, I know how to DI. I know how to DI quite well and the problem with shuttle loop isnt that you can DI it well to avoid it. Its that its nearly impossible to DI in the correct direction (since the **** thing launches in like 5 directions) on reaction to its impossibly fast startup.

You don't DI to avoid Shuttle Loop. Obviously if you're capable, it is ideal. But the main point that makes Shuttle Loop less effective is DIing the actual move makes its killing power drop drastically. If you don't DI Shuttle Loop itself, or even DI badly, of course you'll die very early. It's no different then Sheik from Melee.

You need to anticipate the move and DI accordingly. You played Melee correct? Shuttle Loops start up shouldn't be hard to deal with for you. An average player with practice can consistently react to something within 3 frames of activation. Shuttle Loops initial hit box comes out on frame 5, and Meta Knight usually connects with the upper hit box to use its vertical space control effectively. This is not hard to do, especially since you know when you'll be hit with it during a string of combos.

And Shuttle Loop does not launch in five different directions. Aerial Shuttle Loop launches in two. Stop exaggerating.

Edit: On the actual note of my videos, even if I had any to post, there would be no actual purpose to doing so. I currently have no opponents to play, I'm on my March break and will be out of opponents to play for at least three weeks.

 

[The Cape]

Thing is. I beat most metaknights I play.

I speak of all this from what I experience while playing the character. He feels way too easy, I dont have to work hard to win at all and I have never been beaten with him. This is what leads me to believe that the character needs fixed. Plain and simple.

You keep saying that you know more about the character than me, and maybe you do. But everyone I have ever spoken to or played on the subject other than you thinks that the character is still way too overpowered.

Funny that the person who objects to making this character more fair is a Metaknight main.

 

[kupo15]

The shuttle loop is tough to react to, but not impossible. Once you learn the matchup, you can predict that move very often. I don't think the shuttle loop needs to be nerfed at all with kb because DI is the kb nerf and reaction practice takes care of that. The part about the shuttle loop that I find borderline broken is how versatile that move is. It can be applied in a lot of situations. I would propose a nerf to gliding as a whole but I have no concrete reasons as why so I'll leave it for now.

 

[Ulevo]

Thing is. I beat most metaknights I play.

That's nice. For the sake of the argument, they could be scrubs for all I know. Stop making pointless comments.

I speak of all this from what I experience while playing the character. He feels way too easy, I dont have to work hard to win at all and I have never been beaten with him.

Personal experience does not directly reflect a characters potential, nor your opponents characters potential. This is bias. Meta Knight is an easy character to play by nature, he was in vBrawl. The changes in Brawl Plus haven't changed this fact.

This is what leads me to believe that the character needs fixed. Plain and simple.

Why are you focusing on a character that we can't even prove is broken right now when we can just fix him later if he actually does prove to be broken, when we could be improving characters who are clearly lacking in comparison?

You keep saying that you know more about the character than me, and maybe you do. But everyone I have ever spoken to or played on the subject other than you thinks that the character is still way too overpowered.

Yeah, and everyone in the beginning of Brawl thought Ice Climbers who **** tournaments. It didn't happen though. People can and often will be wrong. Especially if you're the one using Meta Knight and are out right ****** them.

Funny that the person who objects to making this character more fair is a Metaknight main.

I'm looking to make the game as balanced as possible, and this includes Meta Knight in its inclusion. I have not only agreed to, but have supported some of the changes already made to him. This is because these changes made sense, and had logical purpose to their inclusion in the set. I am not supporting the changes you are making because you consistently go overboard, as clearly outlined with the majority of alterations for many characters you've posted about, and base your opinion on nothing more than your matches with your friends (who could be scrubs for all I know) and nothing else. This is not the first thing I have out right disagreed with you on, it just happens to be the most persistent set of changes you've suggested. You don't even care how Meta Knight is nerfed, you just want him degraded. Do you realize how thoughtless that is, to not even consider the actions of your changes?

Cut your ad hominem garbage and actually argue my points Cape, or I will simply ignore your posts from now on.

 

[The Cape]

I am not going to argue you anymore as you wont change your mind. I know that.

Sure I go overboard with the nerfs most likely but the community speaks as loud as I do that we need to do something about this character as he is way too overpowered as is.

Also you said this:
Why are you focusing on a character that we can't even prove is broken right now when we can just fix him later if he actually does prove to be broken, when we could be improving characters who are clearly lacking in comparison?

And as I recall I have been on the Lucas, Bowser, Link, and Samus buff train for a long time.

 

[Revven]

The shuttle loop is tough to react to, but not impossible. Once you learn the matchup, you can predict that move very often. I don't think the shuttle loop needs to be nerfed at all with kb because DI is the kb nerf and reaction practice takes care of that. The part about the shuttle loop that I find borderline broken is how versatile that move is. It can be applied in a lot of situations. I would propose a nerf to gliding as a whole but I have no concrete reasons as why so I'll leave it for now.

This. Shuttle Loop can be used in so many situations it's not funny (it really isn't funny guys). I don't know how it could be fixed though so it can't be used as much as it is. Almost all of MK's moves lend themselves to ending with it and it does considerable damage (not sure how much but I know it's a decent amount). I was thinking of having it slowed down before he flips over so the person has a chance to escape the part before he flips, because it IS really fast but this would also probably nerf it as a recovery as well (but his recovery is too good anyway so it needs a decent nerf anyhow). But, I'm not so sure if that's the way to go about it.

I definitely don't like how MK can kill earlier than Sheik and they're pretty comparable to one another. Sheik is like the only character in this game that was purposely built for gimping, it would be so cool to have two gimping characters just like there are two great aerial mobility characters (Jigglypuff and Wario). If MK was made to be a gimping character, a lot of his moves would need to be changed entirely but, you can't deny it would suit him and possibly nerf him at the same time. Look at Sheik, she dies well at the same percents as MK does now (100% roughly from most characters) and she has a comparable style to MK except she doesn't have a powerful Up B that can end combos and she doesn't have a ridiculous recovery. I think the two are quite similar and IMO, this would balance MK and not make him and Kirby so similar.

But, I don't think many people want this so whatever. It's been proposed before, I think it would be nice, all we'd have to do is lower the KB and damage on all his aerials, lower KB on Dsmash, lower KB on Shuttle Loop (or keep the same, whatever), nerf his gliding, and buff something I guess. However, I wouldn't look at changing him to a gimping style character as a nerf, as it REALLY IS what he already excels at, it's just he's... ridiculous with it.

What does everyone else think? Ulevo?

One more thing, on the subject of Shuttle Loop. It's the only Up B in the game that combos so effectively and KOs so well (if you discard all DI). No one else's Up B in the game combos as well (Falcon's isn't that good, don't even mention his, you know HIS is at least avoidable). The problem I have with MK's is that you can't avoid it well at all, some times even with DI, it can't be avoided because it just lends itself to loads of situations.

 

[shanus]

Honestly I think we are going WAY overboard on the MK nerfs and you guys are hyping it up way too much.

Look at what we are doing to him:

Nerf to Dair (one of his main gimping and damage tools)
Nerf to Aerial Shuttle Loop (one of his main kill moves)
Nerf to whorenado (bread and butter damage and punishment tool)
Nerf to downsmash (not too significant, but hurts him a bit)
Nerf to his survivability (VERY noticable)

Honestly any more nerfs to him at this point I think is stupid and overkill. ROB, diddy, g&w and others can all keep up with him already. If you don't think they can, you haven't played a good one yet. Honestly, I truly think we should be more concerned with buffing the terrible characters than overnerfing metaknight because I truly believe the other characters are already on a much more equal playing field than before, and that was before all these knockback adjustments.

 

[Ulevo]

This. Shuttle Loop can be used in so many situations it's not funny (it really isn't funny guys). I don't know how it could be fixed though so it can't be used as much as it is. Almost all of MK's moves lend themselves to ending with it and it does considerable damage (not sure how much but I know it's a decent amount).

It does 9%. See, it's these sort of things that bother me. If we're arguing about things that we're not even aware of, why are we proposing any changes to be made. Nair does 18%. I don't see any damage complaints about that.

And his moves don't lend himself in to them. I'll show you what I mean.

I definitely don't like how MK can kill earlier than Sheik and they're pretty comparable to one another.

That is a problem with Sheik, not a problem with Meta Knight. Meta Knight was previously top tier, and I don't think anyone is going to argue he isn't at least high tier presently. Sheik is therefor the character to be focusing on.

Sheik is like the only character in this game that was purposely built for gimping, it would be so cool to have two gimping characters just like there are two great aerial mobility characters (Jigglypuff and Wario). If MK was made to be a gimping character, a lot of his moves would need to be changed entirely but, you can't deny it would suit him and possibly nerf him at the same time. Look at Sheik, she dies well at the same percents as MK does now (100% roughly from most characters) and she has a comparable style to MK except she doesn't have a powerful Up B that can end combos and she doesn't have a ridiculous recovery. I think the two are quite similar and IMO, this would balance MK and not make him and Kirby so similar.

Meta Knight dies much earlier over the top and on the sides than Sheik unless gimped. I also outlined on why this is a problem with Sheik, not a problem with Meta Knight.

One more thing, on the subject of Shuttle Loop. It's the only Up B in the game that combos so effectively and KOs so well (if you discard all DI).

Um, why would you discard all DI in an example being made? You should be attempting to DI anything you can in competitive play.

And it doesn't combo that effectively. I'll outline why later.

No one else's Up B in the game combos as well (Falcon's isn't that good, don't even mention his, you know HIS is at least avoidable). The problem I have with MK's is that you can't avoid it well at all, some times even with DI, it can't be avoided because it just lends itself to loads of situations.

Luigi begins to kill you at at least 50% from basically anywhere on the stage, and it has reliable combos for it. Marth has combos for Dolphin Slash that not only kill earlier, but are actually reliable regardless of DI. Ivysaur also kills much earlier, and can reliably combos.

I have more examples.


I'm either going to compile a video, or if that isn't possible since I don't have my capture card with me on my time away, I'm going to compile a text wall of examples as to why most of these statements are in fact wrong.

 

[shanus]

Also, I want to stress to people to think of character matchups and not that he completely destroys my falcon or mario, etc etc. He is an excellent character, but we don't want to nerf him to mid tier because thats just stupid. You all said yourself that you want characters to be as perfected as DK, falcon, etc as shining examples. I think this is the case here. MK plays very well, we get rid of whats broken and its fine.

As i said before, ROB, Diddy, G&W, Pika, and more are not trivial (i'd say are 50/50 or worse matchups for MK now).