Metaknight iz zo brokn!!!!!!!!!!!!

[viparagon]

Zelda/Shiek's downB should be #1.

I said no tranformations. It gets too complecated (and I disagree with u)

 

[Oh Snap]

Why not?

I don't think Z/S's Downb should be #1 anymore, but it should be somewhere in top 10.

 

[XienZo]

Why not?

I don't think Z/S's Downb should be #1 anymore, but it should be somewhere in top 10.

All the transformations are terrible. Use against DDD or Ike or ICs means -1 stock.

 

[Azzizaz]

Pit for #1 F Smash. Lol. Good job ignoring valid arguments that actually make sense in your Pit F Smashmania.

Oh, and want at least one F Smash that is better than Pit's?

DK.

It is slightly slower, but ridiculously fast compared to its range and power. The range has to at least be over 2x maybe even 3x larger than Pit's F Smash. Obviously, it has great killing power and damage. It doesn't have that bad punishable lag. It cannot be DIed out of. You can easily land it due to its range and speed. You can do things like double bairs into immediate F Smash, bair into F Smash, dtilt trip into F Smash, Side B into F Smash, pivot F Smashes which work great with DK's F Smash, D Air them and then chase their get up if they don't tech it, etc.

Pit's may have more speed, but its lack of range severely limits its usefulness. You pretty much have to get into shield grab-able range before you can really use it. It can be DIed out of. It has less knockback, damage, and is more difficult to land.

There are a few more I could think of off the top of my head that are better than Pit's F Smash but if this doesn't change your mind, then there's no point.

 

[XienZo]

Pit for #1 F Smash. Lol. Good job ignoring valid arguments that actually make sense in your Pit F Smashmania.

Oh, and want at least one F Smash that is better than Pit's?

DK.

It is slightly slower, but ridiculously fast compared to its range and power. The range has to at least be over 2x maybe even 3x larger than Pit's F Smash. Obviously, it has great killing power and damage. It doesn't have that bad punishable lag. It cannot be DIed out of. You can easily land it due to its range and speed. You can do things like double bairs into immediate F Smash, bair into F Smash, dtilt trip into F Smash, Side B into F Smash, pivot F Smashes which work great with DK's F Smash, D Air them and then chase their get up if they don't tech it, etc.

Pit's may have more speed, but its lack of range severely limits its usefulness. You pretty much have to get into shield grab-able range before you can really use it. It can be DIed out of. It has less knockback, damage, and is more difficult to land.

There are a few more I could think of off the top of my head that are better than Pit's F Smash but if this doesn't change your mind, then there's no point.

That just means DK's Fsmash is spaced differently than Pit's. DK's might be more useful from afar, but Pit's is MUCH more useful up close.

The thing is, DK should never be close up and Pit shouldn't be that far away, so neither are actually going into positions where their Fsmash sucks.

Thats also why its pretty hard to compare the two.

 

[viparagon]

Pit for #1 F Smash. Lol. Good job ignoring valid arguments that actually make sense in your Pit F Smashmania.

Oh, and want at least one F Smash that is better than Pit's?

DK.

It is slightly slower, but ridiculously fast compared to its range and power. The range has to at least be over 2x maybe even 3x larger than Pit's F Smash. Obviously, it has great killing power and damage. It doesn't have that bad punishable lag. It cannot be DIed out of. You can easily land it due to its range and speed. You can do things like double bairs into immediate F Smash, bair into F Smash, dtilt trip into F Smash, Side B into F Smash, pivot F Smashes which work great with DK's F Smash, D Air them and then chase their get up if they don't tech it, etc.

Pit's may have more speed, but its lack of range severely limits its usefulness. You pretty much have to get into shield grab-able range before you can really use it. It can be DIed out of. It has less knockback, damage, and is more difficult to land.

There are a few more I could think of off the top of my head that are better than Pit's F Smash but if this doesn't change your mind, then there's no point.

your still being a total *******, but at least your participating! Fine, I'm game.
First off "slightly slower"????? WTF man, pit's comes out on frame 8. thats like saying d3's fsmash is better than snakes Ftilt b/c it goes farther and is more powerful. pits attack is virtually unpunishable. even if you PERFECT SHIELD the second hit, the second is fast enough and has enough sheiildstun to push you out of range. BTW, were also looking at the move itself and not what you can follow into it. on the same token, pit can simply arrow spam >fsmash. And seriously stop with the DI. Its about as easy to di out of as warios dair. you can easily Spotdodge and punish dks with minimal practice, which is more punishable and much much easier than successfully diing out of pits smash.

I grow tired of repeating stuff. I think i'm going to right a topic at the start explaining why I put it first.

 

[Azzizaz]

On the contrary, shouldn't Pit be camping until the enemy approaches?

But the thing is, DK can use his F Smash long ranged, and short ranged. Where as Pit must get very close to use his. DK's get grabs all the time, and that means they are close enough to do things like dtilt to F Smash, Headbutt to F Smash, etc. Pivot F Smash is amazing for baiting/mindgaming. And you can do double bairs into an immediate F Smash with basically no lag. So then, if we compare both F Smashes used in their "comfort zones" DK has better damage, and speed, and has the ability to reach the enemy easier, while sacrificing a little bit of speed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Lucas's is amazing. Have u seen wave jump? its HAX. it also useful for magnet slide, can be canceled free of lag, comes out fast, reverses directions, stalls, has a powerful attack that can work against legdeguarders, he's twice the damage thrown at him and comes out lightning fast... I could go on and on.

the implications of the bucket is that it inhibits projectile spamming? falco givin yah problems? bucket two lasers and you wont see another for a lloooonnng time. Kirbys sux.

ok, ill give you lucas cus i forgot most of the applications
but the thing about GaW is that in tourneys the vast majority of characters (and ALL of top tier minus 2) dont even have energy projectiles. and in those numerous occasions, they render bucket completely useless.

p.s. see what i mean? kirbys is underrated...
EDIT what the hell?
who the hell in their right mind does headbutt to forward smash?
thats stupid...
everyone knows that you cant even activate side b with out having a fully charged punch...
lololoololololol
but seriously DKs forward smash isnt that great...
its good, but its too slow to be reliable
pits on the other hand can be a kill move, and damage racker and an 'unpunishable' punisher

 

[viparagon]

Why not?

I don't think Z/S's Downb should be #1 anymore, but it should be somewhere in top 10.

its not an attack but it has a use (as opposed to a tuant), so its hard to compare it with actual attacks

On the contrary, shouldn't Pit be camping until the enemy approaches?

But the thing is, DK can use his F Smash long ranged, and short ranged. Where as Pit must get very close to use his. DK's get grabs all the time, and that means they are close enough to do things like dtilt to F Smash, Headbutt to F Smash, etc. Pivot F Smash is amazing for baiting/mindgaming. And you can do double bairs into an immediate F Smash with basically no lag. So then, if we compare both F Smashes used in their "comfort zones" DK has better damage, and speed, and has the ability to reach the enemy easier, while sacrificing a little bit of speed.

yes, thats exactly what I was saying. pit spams arrows, opponent approaches and eats fsmash. DKs fsmash is worthless close range. it comes out after like, 30 frames (waaay to long), and we are not discussing other moves such as dtilt or ftilt. we are discussing the better smash attack. Mind gaming is reaaalllly hard when your opponent can see u coming from 30 frames away>spotdodge, punish.

EDIT:

just some commenting about the DIing of pits fsmash.
1.you have about 6 frames between the first and second hit, because before your not sure if your attack is going to hit or not. (after you know you've been hit) from which to act. thats 1/10 of a second. not much time, and chances are people are going to have a VERY difficult time diing the attack

2.DIing can be disasterous! if you try to DI the first hit and you are too close to pit, the second attack will automatically collide. sure you can judge whether or not your close enoguh to pit to DI or not, but keep in mind u have 1/10th of a second, and alot of this time is registering the fact that u got hit, and your momentum will probably be towards pit prior the smash(SH aerial, perhaps?) if you use standard DI (away and above pit), you'll be DIing towards where pit is trying to send you, resulting in deaths much quicker. See the problem?

seriosly, this is getting ********

 

[Azzizaz]

your still being a total *******, but at least your participating! Fine, I'm game.
First off "slightly slower"????? WTF man, pit's comes out on frame 8. thats like saying d3's fsmash is better than snakes Ftilt b/c it goes farther and is more powerful. pits attack is virtually unpunishable. even if you PERFECT SHIELD the second hit, the second is fast enough and has enough sheiildstun to push you out of range. BTW, were also looking at the move itself and not what you can follow into it. on the same token, pit can simply arrow spam >fsmash. And seriously stop with the DI. Its about as easy to di out of as warios dair. you can easily Spotdodge and punish dks with minimal practice, which is more punishable and much much easier than successfully diing out of pits smash.

I grow tired of repeating stuff. I think i'm going to right a topic at the start explaining why I put it first.

That comparison fails because Snake's ftilt rivals DDD's F Smash range. Then seeing how Snake's ftilt does great damage, knockback, and has good speed it's obviously better than DDD's F Smash.

I'm not in the mood to look up frame data, but it seems like you think that DK's FSmash is like DDD's, or Ike's.

If you perfect shield, you have no shieldstun/lag.

If we're not looking at what you can follow into it, then aren't we ignoring part of how useful certain moves are? If you couldn't pivot F Smash or double bair into immediate F Smash well with DK, then it'd be much less useful because you'd otherwise have to get a specific situation like Headbutt/dtilt, or get your enemy to make a mistake. But because you can do those things, and all the other things that lead into F Smash, it makes DK's F Smash quite viable and useful as a kill move.

Well couldn't someone technically just powershield all the arrows and then hit Pit with a move that outranges his F Smash?

You can also spotdodge Pit's F Smash and punish with a grab, jab, etc. Heck, you can even shieldgrab it with ease. While you'll have a big problem shieldgrabbing DK's F Smash if spaced well. Heck, even if you do shield a well spaced DK F Smash, it's still pretty hard to punish it because the cooldown lag isn't bad and DK's F Smash pushes the shielder quite far.

 

[Azzizaz]

Oh, and getting kills below 100% is a nice bonus.

Oh, and it's actually pretty easy to DI Pit's F Smash unless they get you smack dab in the middle of it. If they hit you with the tip of it, you can DI outward from the second hit. If you're really close to Pit, you can DI towards him and avoid the second hit. All I know is that I wouldn't want to rely on a kill move/damage racker that requires the enemy to be that close.

 

[OmegaXF]

marth's fsmash wtf lol

IF it hits and IF it tips, it's good

It's godly because it strikes constant fear in peoples hearts
Feel the power~Lucario can't touch rofl

 

[viparagon]

That comparison fails because Snake's ftilt rivals DDD's F Smash range. Then seeing how Snake's ftilt does great damage, knockback, and has good speed it's obviously better than DDD's F Smash.

I'm not in the mood to look up frame data, but it seems like you think that DK's FSmash is like DDD's, or Ike's.

If you perfect shield, you have no shieldstun/lag.

If we're not looking at what you can follow into it, then aren't we ignoring part of how useful certain moves are? If you couldn't pivot F Smash or double bair into immediate F Smash well with DK, then it'd be much less useful because you'd otherwise have to get a specific situation like Headbutt/dtilt, or get your enemy to make a mistake. But because you can do those things, and all the other things that lead into F Smash, it makes DK's F Smash quite viable and useful as a kill move.

Well couldn't someone technically just powershield all the arrows and then hit Pit with a move that outranges his F Smash?

You can also spotdodge Pit's F Smash and punish with a grab, jab, etc. Heck, you can even shieldgrab it with ease. While you'll have a big problem shieldgrabbing DK's F Smash if spaced well. Heck, even if you do shield a well spaced DK F Smash, it's still pretty hard to punish it because the cooldown lag isn't bad and DK's F Smash pushes the shielder quite far.

OMG I AM SO TIRED OF REPEATING MYSELF!!!! look at my last post edit concerning DI. I have already provide counter arguments to all the points you have listed, just look back on my previous posts arguing with you and shadowlink (page 13-14) Duh. you can spotdodge any smash attack cept lucarios, but pit makes it difficult because of

A. lingering hitbox.
b.speed

neither of which DK has. plus dk has more ending lag, causing it to be more punishabel.
otherwise, ive answered all your other questions...

 

[MRTW113]

How is Marth that low in the f-smash list? IMO, its range, speed, damage and priority warrants it a higher position...

 

[viparagon]

Oh, and getting kills below 100% is a nice bonus.

Oh, and it's actually pretty easy to DI Pit's F Smash unless they get you smack dab in the middle of it. If they hit you with the tip of it, you can DI outward from the second hit. If you're really close to Pit, you can DI towards him and avoid the second hit. All I know is that I wouldn't want to rely on a kill move/damage racker that requires the enemy to be that close.

gl finding your exact location relative to pit after your failed approach and 6 frames to work with in a move that doesn't allow much di

How is Marth that low in the f-smash list? IMO, its range, speed, damage and priority warrants it a higher position...

sorry, but a bunch of other marth mains including steel2nd and megavitamins told me to put it lower. sorry, I originally had it as 3rd

 

[da K.I.D.]

i suggest you ignore any more arguments on this point for a while...

 

[XienZo]

Oh, and getting kills below 100% is a nice bonus.

Oh, and it's actually pretty easy to DI Pit's F Smash unless they get you smack dab in the middle of it. If they hit you with the tip of it, you can DI outward from the second hit. If you're really close to Pit, you can DI towards him and avoid the second hit.

You forget that Pit is much more comfortable in mid-range anyway. Chances are, you will be caught in where you can't DI if the Pit is any good.

All I know is that I wouldn't want to rely on a kill move/damage racker that requires the enemy to be that close.

Thats DK main's preference. That doesn't hold true for all characters. Some want to be close in so they have no breathing room. A Pit might say, "All I know is that I wouldn't want to rely on a kill move/damage racker that requires the enemy to be far away.", because DK's fsmash isn't good for close range either.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think it should be
wolf
marth
zelda
GaW
as far as f-smashes are concerned with that particular part in the list

 

[viparagon]

i think it should be
wolf
marth
zelda
GaW
as far as f-smashes are concerned with that particular part in the list

wait, so thats

1.
2.
3.
4.?

where is kirby, lucario, wario and pit ?

and yes this is getting annoying. what do you think?

 

[Azzizaz]

Lingering hitbox. Lol.

If you're not going to actually counter my points, no need to try and convince you. This is list is basically the opinion of one person which may be swayed if you make a major mistake.

All I'm going to say is this. If you miss, DK has a better chance to get punished. If you get shielded, Pit has a better chance to get punished.

 

[XienZo]

Lingering hitbox. Lol.

If you're not going to actually counter my points, no need to try and convince you. This is list is basically the opinion of one person which may be swayed if you make a major mistake.
All I'm going to say is this. If you miss, DK has a better chance to get punished. If you get shielded, Pit has a better chance to get punished.

The character matchup thread is in the other direction.

Also, what if they jump over the Fsmash?

 

[viparagon]

Lingering hitbox. Lol.

If you're not going to actually counter my points, no need to try and convince you. This is list is basically the opinion of one person which may be swayed if you make a major mistake.

All I'm going to say is this. If you miss, DK has a better chance to get punished. If you get shielded, Pit has a better chance to get punished.

Pits fsmash sends sheilding opponents REALLY far away partly because of the two swings. How isn't it a lingering hitbox? no matter how short, it still has a duration of more than one hit. what do you consider a lingering hitbox exactly? WHat exactly is dk using to punish pit? PLZ DONT SAY sheildgrab, b/c it dosn't work.


whatever, Dakid is right. I've already said all I need to say on the matter. look it up. Either talk about something else or GTFO

 

[Judge Judy]

Ok, I'm probally the only one on SWF who would ever even think this but what about Mario's FLUDD for down B? It could actually be better than Link's bombs. I know I'm going to get a lot of lols from this post but FLUDD actually has a lot of potential.

 

[XienZo]

Ok, I'm probally the only one on SWF who would ever even think this but what about Mario's FLUDD for down B? It could actually be better than Link's bombs. I know I'm going to get a lot of lols from this post but FLUDD actually has a lot of potential.

Its OK, but it gets most of is viablity because Mario also comes with good aerials and the cape , so its easy to both lead into and finish up after the FLUDD. However, by itself, its not too impressive.

 

[Judge Judy]

Its OK, but it gets most of is viablity because Mario also comes with good aerials and the cape , so its easy to both lead into and finish up after the FLUDD. However, by itself, its not too impressive.

Yah, it's more of a setup move. Even FIHL is really just to setup other moves. The FLUDD can completely stop the momentum of some moves and FLUDD break is an instant KO, but it's extremely situational outside its setups.

 

[Azzizaz]

Shieldgrab. Why wait for both hits before attempting? Or, just shield and then use a move right after. Pit's F Smash may push shielders away (just like all moves) but due to its lack of range they're still in prime position to punish. DK? They're could half the stage distance away from you due to the range of his F Smash and then even greater push. Anyways, have fun compiling this list. I'm going to bed.

 

[XienZo]

Shieldgrab. Why wait for both hits before attempting? Or, just shield and then use a move right after. Pit's F Smash may push shielders away (just like all moves) but due to its lack of range they're still in prime position to punish. DK? They're could half the stage distance away from you due to the range of his F Smash and then even greater push. Anyways, have fun compiling this list. I'm going to bed.

Pit's Fmash pushes them pretty far, so you can't really shieldgrab. Even after the first hit, you'll need DDD's range to grab.


DK's is also slightly easier to PS since it has noticable start up lag.

 

[Affinity]

DK should be placed in the "B-throw" list.

 

[Ripple]

DK should also be above bowser in the up b section

 

[da K.I.D.]

my f-smash list was supposed to take place after thetop four, sorry if i wasnt clear on that...
still think lucarios is better than kirbys but im tired of talking about f-smashes... lol

anyway bowsers up b is better than DKs because it rediculously good and can KO out of shield at moderate damage

 

[Minwu]

Pimping for my characters:

top ten jabs

1.ike
2.snake
3.captain falcon
4. falco
5.lucario
6.kirby
7.squirtle
8.bowser
9.link
10.yoshi

Lucas' Jab comes out on frame 2, he has a jab lock, and can jab cancel pretty fluidly too. Auto jabbing is also nice.

top ten upsmashes

1. fox
2.olimar
3.snake
4.zelda
5.G&W
6.peach
7.link
8.charizard
9.marth
10.yoshi

Lucas' Usmash has GREAT vertical disjointed range, and kills Mario straight up(harder to DI) at 70% on FD. The time spent in the star KO animation is more than enough to compensate for any cooldown. This is also pretty useful for punishing D3's upb, if you're familiar with it's trajectory. His hyphen dash doesn't make him slide too far, so you rarely have to worry about missing.


top ten dsmashes

1.metaknight
2. G&W
3.zss
4.rob
5.wolf
6.donkey kong
7.pikachu
8.ICs
9.tlink
10.zelda

Link's Dsmash is his best defensive move, and you can hit with both hits of the Dsmash with help from the wind effect of the Gale Boomerang for huge damage.

dash attack

1. diddy
2.snake
3.ganon
4.zss
5.kirby
6.ness
7.falco
8.peach
9.mk
10.zelda

TL's dash attack is one of the few to send you forward, and can also trip. Zelda's is rather laggy and gives little boost.


ftilt

1.snake
2.shiek
3. d3
4.mk
5.rob
6.bowser
7.DK
8.lucas
9.squirtle
10.ike

Link's ftilt is the only one that's a sufficient killer, and also one of Link's many defensive options due to the disjointedness.


dtilt

1.MK
2.donkey kong
3. marth
4.G&W
5.rob
6.samus
7.charizard
8.zelda
9.d3
10.ivysaur

Lucas' Dtilt can hit certain characters like Marth out of a grab release, and you're guaranteed an fsmash if it trips.


uair

1.MK
2.olimar
3.G&W
4. marth
5.d3
6.wario
7.Captain Falcon
8.mario
9. luigi
10.lucario


ZSS' uair has good range, comes out quick, and can kill pretty well. Lucario's seems to have a bit of cooldown although I don't know much about Lucario.

bair

1.G&W
2.DK
3. tlink
4.rob
5.d3
6.mk
7.luigi
8.peach
9.yoshi
10.wolf

Marth's Bair is the only Bair in the game to turn the character around in the air, and is a bit more disjointed than even his Fair. It is easy to use off the edge. Wolf's is only useful as an above ground approach.

dair

1.MK
2.lucario
3.wario
4.peach
5.d3
6.falco
7.G&W
8.Fox
9.Ganon
10.Jiggs

Tlink's dair eats away shields, has a decent spike, and the wind effect can push Ike off the ledge after a sideb, putting him in the falling animation. It also attains odd properties on a slope.

nair

1.ROB
2.MK
3.luigi
4.marth
5.tlink
6.G&W
7.ike
8.snake
9.ness
10.yoshi

Lucas' full nair can deal 20% damage when fresh, and has great manueverability(for punishing dodges).


Upb

1.MK
2.Pikachu
3.rob
4.G&W
5.marth
6.luigi
7.bowser
8.sonic
9.pit
10.mario

DK's upb has SA frames, and can deal 30% damage at once. It gets more vertical AND horizontal range than Bowser's, I don't see why his is there.

b

1.snake
2.MK
3.pit
4.falco
5.lucario
6.rob
7.sheik
8.wolf
9. tlink
10.wario

Link's Arrows are buffed in comparison to TL's. It's way easier to time your Arrow cancels.

I see you don't have grab attacks. Wolf's, Lucario's, and Ness' are all very quick, and Lucas' deals a ton of damage.

 

[Killer Napalm]

uh...


SNACK'S SNAKE'S NUETRAL B BETTER THAN NADO, YOU IS A DUMB.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I think wolf's down b should be on that list cause its a great counter move and it gives you invincibility.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this is going to be tiredsome but im going to answer all of minwus points one by one.
jab: having a two frame jab isnt that great for the range it has. and having a jab lock doesnt matter unless there a really good set up for it

up smash:
lucas's is really slow on start up as well and i really think that it can be punished witha falcon punch, no top 10 move can be punished by a falcon punch. lol as a matter of fact, that should be a prerequisite to be on this list... but yea, its WAYYYY too punishable even for the amazing payoff

d-smash
moves that hit one side than hit the other (minus wolf and MK) are highly punishable and link is no different. it also doesnt help that he has such stringent requirements to get the best of his move.

dash attack,
honestly, the unpunishability and spammablity of sonics dash attack makes it better than both of the ones you mentioned, and i KNOW that if i thought long enough i could come up with something better than all 3

f-tilt
are you serious!? snakes f-tilt doesnt kill? ikes f-tilt doesnt kill? and ikes is stronger while having about the same speed as links.

d-tilt
i dont think the reasons you gave over shadow any other move on the list.

u-air
you may have a point...

b-air
youre right marth should be on the list but wolf shouldnt be knocked off.
its my personal opinon that ROBs while good, isnt in the same class as the other back airs

i dont feel like talking about tinks down air anoymore idid it like all day yesterday

n-air
lucas has no way of garanteeing good damage and it doesnt beat any already there.

up b
bowsers is ahead of DK because of its onstage uses...

b
my knowledge on the links is not the best so I will concede this.

and @napalm
I KNOW RIGHT I TOLD HIM THAT LIKE 3 TIMES

 

[da K.I.D.]

hes right, at the ver least wolf should be above link

 

[PillowPants]

Snakes dash attack is ****, Pikas d-smash is ****, Marths f-smash ****s on Pits idk wut ur smokin, ROBs u-smash is ****, and omg Links N-air is **** for no reason!

 

[Gindler]

Has anyone even seen yoshi's Ftilt? High priority, extremely fast, good range, sure it only does like 9-10% and has no kill potential but it makes a great "get off me" move...hmmm then again the one's listed all have great Ftilts as well.

 

[Minwu]

up smash:
lucas's is really slow on start up as well and i really think that it can be punished witha falcon punch, no top 10 move can be punished by a falcon punch. lol as a matter of fact, that should be a prerequisite to be on this list... but yea, its WAYYYY too punishable even for the amazing payoff

It takes about the same time to start up as MK's fsmash, maybe a little less. You have to hit with it.

dash attack,
honestly, the unpunishability and spammablity of sonics dash attack makes it better than both of the ones you mentioned, and i KNOW that if i thought long enough i could come up with something better than all 3

Sonic's dash attack does not extend from his hurtbox. Like, at all.

f-tilt
are you serious!? snakes f-tilt doesnt kill? ikes f-tilt doesnt kill? and ikes is stronger while having about the same speed as links.

Missed those. Link's has more range than both of them.


n-air
lucas has no way of garanteeing good damage and it doesnt beat any already there.

He does, though. You have HUGE control of where you go compared to any other aerial attack. And it autocancels.

I'm going to bed, sorry.

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda does have the strongest utilt in the game.........just saying.

 

[brinboy789]

d-smash
moves that hit one side than hit the other (minus wolf and MK) are highly punishable and link is no different. it also doesnt help that he has such stringent requirements to get the best of his move.

dash attack,
honestly, the unpunishability and spammablity of sonics dash attack makes it better than both of the ones you mentioned, and i KNOW that if i thought long enough i could come up with something better than all 3

for dsmash: dont forget zelda. and they are punishable to a point, but relatively hard to.

sonics dash attack is like screaming "PUNISH ME" the cooldown time is soooo freakin long, its like begging for a shield grab.and it does crap damage. >_>