Metaknight iz zo brokn!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ShadowLink84]

sorry, argument on dk is void thanks b/c without speed included, D3 has the best fsmash.

What stupidity is this?
Again, I said that the only thing that Pit has on them is ONLY speed.
Speed does factor but it is not the major factor when it comes to the smash.
That is why Dk's Fsmash and Dsmasha re considered good. What they don't have in speed, they make up for in terms of range and power.
DDD has alot of power and range, but because the speed to his attack is so very poor, it offsets those two qualities.

Its is a combination of all three not just speed.
Don't strawman my argument again

wario
pros: super armor on start up, slighlty more powerful

cons: very slighlty slower, it has a zillion frames of end lag that can easily be punished.

while Pit has a lack of range which also means that the opponent is close enough to punish you.
And don't say zillion, thats such a silly thing to say.

kirby
pros: longer range
cons: slighlty slower, Very punishable on shield

Kirby's Fsmash is a bit more powerful than pit's I think. It also has better range.

lucario
pros: huge range, extremely hard to punish after execution

cons: huge startup, can easily be rolled around

Your con isfalse. When the Fsmash is used properly if the opponent tries to roll around, they'll eat a jab/tilt to the face.
Lucario's Fsmash is excellent for zoning,

marth
pros: tippers have power, range

cons: slower, punishable on shield, very little power when not a tipper.

Very little?
You must be joking.

pits cant really even be perfect sheilded, since the second hit pushes them back!

perfect shield nullifies the rest of the hits that follows you known.
Also perfect sielding has no lag and cannot be pushed back.
Which mean you are wrong.

and don't pull out the dI bull****. its like saying your going to di out of warios dair or olimars nair. DI isn't some magical acronym you can pull out of your *** to counter any multi hit attack.

Except unlike Olimar's Nair and Wario's Dair, Pit cannot move while using the move. So he can't follow them.
If its Di'able, it will be done and Pit's Fsmash is not hard to DI because the first hit does not suck the opponent into the second attack.

Admittedly, sometimes it doesn't hit twice, but its still enough to stop almost any approach and still place pit in a good position while racking up damage.

Stop any approach?
Are you kidding?
Alot of opponents can stand outside of Fsmash range and just attack.
Fsmash won't stop anything since the first hit does only 8% which means any move will clang with it.

for dsmash: dont forget zelda. and they are punishable to a point, but relatively hard to.

sonics dash attack is like screaming "PUNISH ME" the cooldown time is soooo freakin long, its like begging for a shield grab.and it does crap damage. >_>

l;ol qut?

um it doesn't have much cooldown time.
Cooldown time is when the hitbox no longer exists. The hitbox for the dash attack for Sonic exists for almost the entire time.
As for crap damage, at the last part yes.
As for getting shieldgrabbed, how?
The only time that happens is if someone uses it from far away.
Basically punishing Sonic's dash attack requires the same thing for Diddy.
Grab him as soon as the dash attack ends. Where is no moving more slowly and has not hitbox.

So its not going to happen unless the user does it from a good distance away from the opponent.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Falco's Jab > FalcoN's Jab

Falco's Laser > Pit's arrow easily

Zelda's upair > MK's up air

 

[ShadowLink84]

Falco's Jab > FalcoN's Jab

jab cancels.no jab cancels

Falco's Laser > Pit's arrow easily

I can agree

Zelda's upair > MK's up air

Terribly,terribly wrong.

 

[dantroid225]

I think that Olimar's side + down smash should be up there more: Speed, range, and power
Also Charizard's side B? Crazy damage, power, and hitbox

 

[da K.I.D.]

rock smash is such a stupid **** everything move that is way too good for such a bad character

 

[Skink]

I'd prefer an otherwise bad character have it. Let's give MK rock smash instead of his dumb drill thing. That makes for balance!

 

[da K.I.D.]

i wish MK has rock smash cus tthan that might be the one thing that could break the ban camels back...

 

[ROOOOY!]

WTF is this crap lol.
Pit's fsmash being in the top 10 in the game, LET ALONE 1ST?!

 

[viparagon]

Pits is good. but I've only responded to this OVER 9000 times.
there are over 100 moves on this list and I'd like comments on more of them.


and I fixed up the chart ALOT

 

[Crystanium]

Falco's Laser > Pit's arrow easily

In what ways? Is Falco's Blaster faster than Palutena's Arrow? Does Falco's Blaster cut through Palutena's Arrow and continue to go in the direction it was fired? Does it do more damage? Palutena's Arrow can be charged, and the trajectory can be altered.

 

[da K.I.D.]

pits arrows have too many techs and mind games

 

[viparagon]

pits arrows have too many techs and mind games

oh yeah! most of the tchs areuseless though

 

[ShadowLink84]

In what ways? Is Falco's Blaster faster than Palutena's Arrow? Does Falco's Blaster cut through Palutena's Arrow and continue to go in the direction it was fired? Does it do more damage? Palutena's Arrow can be charged, and the trajectory can be altered.

It has laser priority so unlike the arrow, it won't be broken.
The laser also allows Falco to follow up with a number of moves grabs/jabs/tilts etc etc.

 

[viparagon]

It has laser priority so unlike the arrow, it won't be broken.
The laser also allows Falco to follow up with a number of moves grabs/jabs/tilts etc etc.

LOL no it doesn't what do you mean by the laser breaking?

 

[Nicole]

zelda's uair and utilt should both be in the top 10. her uair kills at ******** low percentages (around 80 - 110, depending on the character's weight) and there's little the opponent can do to hurt her during uair, because she shoots an explosion above her head, stopping the opponent from hitting her. her utilt is nearly as powerful as snake's (kills around 90 - 120 depending on character's weight) and hits above, behind, and in front of her.

 

[viparagon]

zelda's uair and utilt should both be in the top 10. her uair kills at ******** low percentages (around 80 - 110, depending on the character's weight) and there's little the opponent can do to hurt her during uair, because she shoots an explosion above her head, stopping the opponent from hitting her. her utilt is nearly as powerful as snake's (kills around 90 - 120 depending on character's weight) and hits above, behind, and in front of her.

uair is too hard to land to be squeeze on the top ten. its pretty slow and easy to see coming.
the utilt kills at higher percents than what you listed, plus is quite slow and has a small hitbox that leaves zelda open due to the high ending lag. a good move to b sure, but not top ten IMO

 

[ShadowLink84]

LOL no it doesn't what do you mean by the laser breaking?

You have issues reading yes?
laser=no interaction with other hitboxes=only shield stops it.

understand?

Pit's arrow gets broken by alot of moves.
So if I fire Pit's Arrow and bowser performs and Fsmash on the arrow. The arrow breaks.
I don't believe there are any moves that can't break pit's arrow.

Again you show a lack of common knowledge which irritates me.

 

[viparagon]

You have issues reading yes?
laser=no interaction with other hitboxes=only shield stops it.

understand?

Pit's arrow gets broken by alot of moves.
So if I fire Pit's Arrow and bowser performs and Fsmash on the arrow. The arrow breaks.
I don't believe there are any moves that can't break pit's arrow.

Again you show a lack of common knowledge.

you should have said transended priority. I thought you were talking about something I never herad of before, like lasers blocking out arrows but nothing else. the arrows go faster, have more hitstun, can be angled, do more damage, have a zillion techs, and are more useful in edgegaurding. its close, but I went with pits for that reason.
transended priority isn't always a good thing BTW. falco is screwed if pit jumps up and aim san arrow downward since lasers can block anything. the arrows "breaking" was also misleading.

get your tems right and maybe ill know what the **** your talking about next time

 

[Wizard99]

Ganon placed well in a couple categories. Too bad he still isn't good

 

[viparagon]

yeah, he definitely has some good moves, but it doesn't mean **** if the moves aren't that usefull in general andhe doesnt have a good approach, recovery and suffers from projectile spam

 

[ShadowLink84]

you should have said transended priority.

That is a more recent term hence I said laser priority.

I thought you were talking about something I never heard of before, like lasers blocking out arrows but nothing else. the arrows go faster, have more hitstun, can be angled, do more damage, have a zillion techs, and are more useful in edgegaurding. its close, but I went with pits for that reason.

A zillion USELESS techs.
There's no point in having a massive amount of techs if NONE of them are practical.
Arrow loop and arrow rain all you want, doesn't mean crap really.
Not sure about the hitstun bit but the cooldown time on Pit's arrow is much greater so he can't take advantage of hitstun.

Meanwhile, Falco can fire a laser then immediately grab you during hitstun.
Its that quick.
Don't know how you misread my post I thought it rather simple.

As for edge guarding I find them to be even. Falco has incredible height to his jumps so he can just send a volley of lasers at the opponent.

transcendent priority isn't always a good thing BTW. falco is screwed if pit jumps up and aims a arrow downward since lasers can block anything. the arrows "breaking" was also misleading.

in what way is falco screwed?
I fire a laser, you jump and fire a laser. I dodge it.
Falco's laser is faster (not in movement) and so has more time to react.
Laser priority is superior to regular priority in most cases.

 

[viparagon]

That is a more recent term hence I said laser priority.


A zillion USELESS techs.
There's no point in having a massive amount of techs if NONE of them are practical.
Arrow loop and arrow rain all you want, doesn't mean crap really.
Not sure about the hitstun bit but the cooldown time on Pit's arrow is much greater so he can't take advantage of hitstun.

Meanwhile, Falco can fire a laser then immediately grab you during hitstun.
Its that quick.
Don't know how you misread my post I thought it rather simple.

As for edge guarding I find them to be even. Falco has incredible height to his jumps so he can just send a volley of lasers at the opponent.




in what way is falco screwed?
I fire a laser, you jump and fire a laser. I dodge it.
Falco's laser is faster (not in movement) and so has more time to react.
Laser priority is superior to regular priority in most cases.

wow falco isnt SHDLing here. hes standing and firing lasers. if hes SHDLing, pit easily out spams him. Standing on the ground means that falco has too put away his laser every time he wants to stop, making maser> grab impossible. once pit gets in the first arrow, falco wont be able to get in hits at all because of the hitstun plus gun taking out animation.

Pits arrows ARE better than falcos for edgegaurding

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwT33mY2ruw

watch the first death, or the whole thing if you want.

that is all
oh and 2:10 for fsmash ****!

 

[ShadowLink84]

wow falco isnt SHDLing here. hes standing and firing lasers. if hes SHDLing, pit easily out spams him.

Don't straw man.
Falco will always perform an SDl. it is pointless not to do an SDL.

If Falco is SDLing Pit doesn't outspam him at all. he can fire 2 lasers and use a reflector in which Pit would only fire 1!

Standing on the ground means that falco has too put away his laser every time he wants to stop, making maser> grab impossible. once pit gets in the first arrow, falco wont be able to get in hits at all because of the hitstun plus gun taking out animation.

Again Falco will just use his SDL at all points.
Don't strawman.
use common sense.

Again we are comparing them its not a matchup between the two.

Pits arrows ARE better than falcos for edgegaurding

On an opponent at high percent who doesn't use their double jump and air dodge multiple times. <_<
If they are better its not by much.

Thats not Fsmash ****. Thats a DK who made an error o use his Fsmash with an opponent who was too far away.

 

[CQC_SNAKE]

Shut up!

You should use the search function. Threads like this have been made over and over and over and over.

you should bring usefull info to the thread insted of saying stupid things like that. also if you have read so many threads like why even click on it,why even reply? get outta town.

forward smash is the thing that u must change for sure.this is how i see it
1/2.ike/d3-its extremely powerful and stuns it can ko around 50 especially on small levels,d d d does not stun but is just raw power
3/4.dk/snake-this 1 is debate,bucause dk's is more powerfull but snake's fsmash has a stun to it
5.toon link-your gone at like 72 under good conditions.
BUT THE MOST MIND BOGGLING thing is that you dont have lucas on the list for up smash! he definatly is in the top five if not the best up smash attack in the game. ive sent ppl at 55% with him,along with the 2-3 second stun if your hit.........BEASTLY! plus if your timing is off the lil sparks still do damage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Smash noob should post less and lurk moar.

 

[Crystanium]

oh yeah! most of the tchs areuseless though

And then viparagon doesn't offer what these techs are, and how they are useless.

It has laser priority so unlike the arrow, it won't be broken.

Please explain.

The laser also allows Falco to follow up with a number of moves grabs/jabs/tilts etc etc.

Please explain why this doesn't work the same for Pit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Please explain.

*sigh* I suppose the newest term is transcendent priority.
They can only interact with hurt box and shields.

Please explain why this doesn't work the same for Pit.

-_-;
I hate having to explain something that I feel is common knowledge.
The amount of time that pit has to wait after firing the arrow is too large to follow up.
by the time he can act the opponent is out of hitstun and can shield or dodge the next attack

Falco on the other hand does nothahve this issue.
For example when Falco fires an SHL. He lands with no lag and the hitstun can be acted upon. much sooner.(silent lasers are a 2-3+frame advantage in comparison to regular lasers).

The laser's ability to cancel the waiting time and allow him to act on hitstun. pit has no such method other than the arrow loop which is not useful.

 

[Judge Judy]

Pit's arrow lopping and arrow rain take a lot of time to set up but it's far from useless; it's not that hard to setup 2 arrows (4 takes forever when your opponent is constantly pressuring you) and it provides good stage control and many setups. I still think Falco's laser > Pit's arrows though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wario has the best fsmash in the game by far. Wtf @ Marth being in best fsmashes -____-

 

[da K.I.D.]

gheb go watch believe the hype, hype's combo vid, he kills mk with f smash at SEVENTEEN

and about arrows, just because only like 4 ppl in the country can use them to max potential doesnt mean they are useless...
and it actually very easy to follow up pits arrows with jab grabs and such.
and since you cant really make a category for best sidesteps, im goiing to go ahead and use angelic step as another reason why pits f-smash is the best. also, if you watch the vid. there is a point where the f-smash has so much pushback that it sets link up for an edgeguard.

@ shadowlink
like you said, we are talking about specific matchups. so even though falcos lasers would be better than arrow in this particular matchup, arrow are a all around better projectile

 

[Judge Judy]

@ shadowlink
like you said, we are talking about specific matchups. so even though falcos lasers would be better than arrow in this particular matchup, arrow are a all around better projectile

Honestly, this reminds me a lot of the argument in Melee over Pills vs Lasers.

 

[viparagon]

i disagree about lasers being better in the matchup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5IgaK9SaiM

go to 1:45, on the section about SHDLs. in order to cancel the lag, the first laser has to be fired so that it is above falcos head. this means that a standing pit will recieve one laser about every 2 seconds. pits arrows fire faster, hitting falco(and with more hitstun). one laser every ttwo seconds isn't enough to subdue pikacu much less pit. if falco desides to fire grounded lasers, pit just jumps up and fires downward.

either way, pit wins

however, both have reflectors so both projectils are kind of useless


wow dakid, so your actually backing me up on pits fsmahs? woo! all my arguing paid off!

 

[Crystanium]

*sigh* I suppose the newest term is transcendent priority.
They can only interact with hurt box and shields.

What are "they"? Arrows or lasers? You weren't specific here.

-_-;
I hate having to explain something that I feel is common knowledge.
The amount of time that pit has to wait after firing the arrow is too large to follow up.
by the time he can act the opponent is out of hitstun and can shield or dodge the next attack

If the world revolved around you, I'm sure everything you were aware of would be common knowledge. In your world. Now, Pit can't move, nor can Falco, when they are using their projectile, unless they short hop or jump forward and fire their projectile. How close would Falco have to be in order to actually use a tilt or grab?

Pit's arrow lopping and arrow rain take a lot of time to set up but it's far from useless; it's not that hard to setup 2 arrows (4 takes forever when your opponent is constantly pressuring you) and it provides good stage control and many setups.

Thank you, Judge Judy.

I still think Falco's laser > Pit's arrows though.

I'll let you and ShadowLink84 accept this. I would really prefer an overall look on these two projectiles before accepting which one is better. So, for now, I will agree to disagree.

 

[ShadowLink84]

gheb go watch believe the hype, hype's combo vid, he kills mk with f smash at SEVENTEEN

and about arrows, just because only like 4 ppl in the country can use them to max potential doesnt mean they are useless...

Where did you get such a stupid idea Kid? That was not at all implied in my post.

If you notice, the majority of the time the top Pit players don't use Arrow loops or arrow rains.
1.They are pressured too much to get them set up
2.They are not very practical.

They offer some stage control but its nowhere near that of Snake's.
most of the time they are playing to avoid getting zoned which is one of Pit's largest weaknesses.

They remain useless just like Sonic's Usmash spike.
Yeah when its done right its holy friggin awesome. but otherwise its just there.

and it actually very easy to follow up pits arrows with jab grabs and such.

prove this now.
I use Pit extensively and I ahve not landed my jabs and grabs on an opponent who knew and understood Pit.

and since you cant really make a category for best sidesteps, im goiing to go ahead and use angelic step as another reason why pits f-smash is the best. also, if you watch the vid. there is a point where the f-smash has so much pushback that it sets link up for an edgeguard.

There aren't many cases where performing an angelic sidestep would be more benficial than what other characters can perform.
IN order to use the step with the Fsmash the opponent has to have made an error. otherwise they'll just continue zoning you.

Look at the pit combo video. If the DK had simply zoned with Ftilts and Dtilt the angelic step would not be capable of being used.
in short its the equivalent of Sonic performing a stutterstep.

it does not counter the fact that he gets zoned.

@ shadowlink
like you said, we are talking about specific matchups. so even though falcos lasers would be better than arrow in this particular matchup, arrow are a all around better projectile

I would have to disagree primarily because Falco's lasers while being incapable of changing trajectory, are faster (attack speed not movement) and can be followed up with more.

What are "they"? Arrows or lasers? You weren't specific here.

Read the post where I responded on you asking about laser priority.

It has laser priority unlikePit's arrows

I don't need to be specific.

If the world revolved around you, I'm sure everything you were aware of would be common knowledge.

Oh of that I am quite sure.
but this isn't one of those cases.
This is knowing the difference between super armor and heavy armor.
You can kill the smug attitude as well.

Now, Pit can't move, nor can Falco, when they are using their projectile, unless they short hop or jump forward and fire their projectile. How close would Falco have to be in order to actually use a tilt or grab?

I would have to check once I get home but I believe it is within hypen Usmash range.

Pit's arrow lopping and arrow rain take a lot of time to set up but it's far from useless; it's not that hard to setup 2 arrows (4 takes forever when your opponent is constantly pressuring you) and it provides good stage control and many setups.

How often does Pit get the chance to set up two arrows in a high level match?
He certainly does not have the opportunity unless he has smashes the opponent away at higher percents.

in order to cancel the lag, the first laser has to be fired so that it is above falcos head.

incorrect.

Look up silent laser.
The laser can be fired below Falco's head and still cancel.

this means that a standing pit will recieve one laser about every 2 seconds. pits arrows fire faster, hitting falco(and with more hitstun). one laser every ttwo seconds isn't enough to subdue pikacu much less pit. if falco decides to fire grounded lasers, pit just jumps up and fires downward.

Why do you insist on discussing a matchup of pit and Falco?
I won't debate the matchup since its strawmanning.
Anyways you are actually incorrect.
The video proves you wrong.
At 1:42-1:43 he fires off 4 lasers. (two SDL's)
So no he isn't firing every two seconds.

Pit has more hitstun and movement speed to the arrows bute Falco has a higher firing rate and almost no lag upon landing after firing the laser.

 

[Judge Judy]

Where did you get such a stupid idea Kid? That was not at all implied in my post.

If you notice, the majority of the time the top Pit players don't use Arrow loops or arrow rains.
1.They are pressured too much to get them set up
2.They are not very practical.

They offer some stage control but its nowhere near that of Snake's.
most of the time they are playing to avoid getting zoned which is one of Pit's largest weaknesses.

They remain useless just like Sonic's Usmash spike.
Yeah when its done right its holy friggin awesome. but otherwise its just there.


prove this now.
I use Pit extensively and I ahve not landed my jabs and grabs on an opponent who knew and understood Pit.


There aren't many cases where performing an angelic sidestep would be more benficial than what other characters can perform.
IN order to use the step with the Fsmash the opponent has to have made an error. otherwise they'll just continue zoning you.

Look at the pit combo video. If the DK had simply zoned with Ftilts and Dtilt the angelic step would not be capable of being used.
in short its the equivalent of Sonic performing a stutterstep.

it does not counter the fact that he gets zoned.



I would have to disagree primarily because Falco's lasers while being incapable of changing trajectory, are faster (attack speed not movement) and can be followed up with more.


Read the post where I responded on you asking about laser priority.



I don't need to be specific.

Oh of that I am quite sure.
but this isn't one of those cases.

How often does Pit get the chance to set up two arrows in a high level match?
He certainly does not have the opportunity unless he has smashes the opponent away at higher percents.

These are all valid aguments and these are main reasons why I still think that Falco's lasers > Pit's arrows.

 

[da K.I.D.]

most pits dont really use arrows when the opponent is that close anyway, but ive been able to jab off of arrows before...
either way, pits arrow are just way more versatile than falcos laser
and keepin mind that SHDLs are usually only used for an approach, seeing as its really easy to get inside of falco when he spams those since most characters the first laser goes over their heads
@judge,
you didnt need to repost that whole thing just ot say you agree with it

 

[Judge Judy]

@judge,
you didnt need to repost that whole thing just ot say you agree with it

It was needed for emphasis.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Why is ShadowLink being argued with?
Arrows are trash compared to lazers.

And KID...you just said that the Pit isn't going to be arrowing from close range...when before you were saying that it's not hard to follow-up from arrows. Given Pit's mediocre speed and bad range, I fail to see how.

 

[ShadowLink84]

most pits dont really use arrows when the opponent is that close anyway, but ive been able to jab off of arrows before...
either way, pits arrow are just way more versatile than falcos laser
and keepin mind that SHDLs are usually only used for an approach, seeing as its really easy to get inside of falco when he spams those since most characters the first laser goes over their heads

Wrong dude.
Falco can use his laser close enough to the ground that the only thing it will miss is an opponent who is ducking. At which point I jab, grab or tilt you.
Falco has alot more follows up than Pit and doesn't have as large an issue up close.

@judge,
you didnt need to repost that whole thing just ot say you agree with it

I am just that ****ing righteous!

 

[da K.I.D.]

i was trying to retract my statement in an incomplete way.

it is hard to follow up with lasers but when in the (bad) situation where you (I) use an arrow from a really close range the hit stun is enough to hit them with a jab combo after.

but smart (not mine) pits dont use arrows from that kind of (dumb) range

but i still believe pits arrows are better because even though they have different uses, arrow use is much more varied and has a greater effect on the match

i realise falco cna shoot lasers low enough to hit a ducking kirby but in order to do that AND follow up with the hit, the falco has to short hop the lasers, and no matter who you are playing against that enough of a down time to run up and interrupt the laser spam after the first 2-3 SHDLs