• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

MetaKnight Infinite Dimensional Cape - hope you enjoy

Status
Not open for further replies.

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
But, is it unpunishable? No, obviously. Santi did some brilliant prediction that decreased Dojo's ability to approach with the move. I think the biggest flaw with D.I.C.K. is that the camera continues to follow MK while he's cloaked, and once people learn camera mechanics, you'll never be able to lose MK even if you can't see him. Sure, the invuln is still a problem, but I think that video demonstrates very clearly how, if not abused, D.I.C.K. is not the end-all-be-all move, and certainly won't give enough of an advantage to shut out every other character. Of course, we should get more test data. One video is NOT enough to make a final call... but I think that (again, if not abused) D.I.C.K. is a very valid move for MK.
The problem with predicting this move is that it's predicting. Furthermore, it's predicting the motion of a move that turns on a dime. People had enough trouble predicting the motion of a Luigi in Melee, because of the way he moves, and they could see him. Now we have to predict the motion of an invisible character with equal mobility. Oh yeah, and he can kill you once he's corporeal again. At least once in the video I posted, Dojo reversed direction when it was apparent that Santi was attempting to predict him. In fact, that was the time Dojo landed a grab. Interesting coincidence, no?

Again, it's like a weighted game of Blackjack, and MK can see all the cards. You might win once in a while, but MK controls the game.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
It's harder, so we have to ban it? That's a terrible reason. It can be predicted (it is not impossible to do so), so people will learn to do it. Simple as that. Predicting Melee Luigi's movement is hard... but it isn't impossible, and so people learned how to do it. Same basic concept. Besides, like I already said, the camera telegraphs where Meta Knight is at all times. Sure, you can't see see him, but you still know where he is.

Oh, and one failed prediction attempt doesn't invalidate all of the successful prediction attempts in that video, just like one botched prediction attempt didn't prove that the move was beatable. When it comes down to it, the problem is still only in abuse of the technique; the cape, in and of itself, is very beatable.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
It's harder, so we have to ban it? That's a terrible reason. It can be predicted (it is not impossible to do so), so people will learn to do it. Simple as that. Predicting Melee Luigi's movement is hard... but it isn't impossible, and so people learned how to do it. Same basic concept. Besides, like I already said, the camera telegraphs where Meta Knight is at all times. Sure, you can't see see him, but you still know where he is.

Oh, and one failed prediction attempt doesn't invalidate all of the successful prediction attempts in that video, just like one botched prediction attempt didn't prove that the move was beatable. When it comes down to it, the problem is still only in abuse of the technique; the cape, in and of itself, is very beatable.
Alright, I wasn't clear in my argument, and I apologize for that. When I compared this to Luigi's motions in Melee, I forgot to mention that not only was Luigi visible, but he had a hurtbox. A Luigi that was wavedashing back and forth and moonwalking all over the place could still be hit by projectiles.

I realize that the move can be predicted. So could Akuma's air Hadouken. That didn't make the move not ridiculously good. Every move has flaws, even the good ones; even the really really good ones, even the stupid good ones. A flaw that is inherent in a move has to be considered in tandem with its advantages, and frankly the tiny modicum of predictability in the Cape doesn't outweigh the massive advantage of being incorporeal.
 

IrArby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
883
Location
Portsmouth VA
Whats to stop people from abusing it if their not playing in friendlies or stalling a tournament?

Also, the fact that its a friendlies further cheapens what information we might gain from the vid since Santi probably plays Dojo often thus increasing his ability to predict Dojo's actions and vice versa ofcourse. As simple as it sounds, when and how (doing what move) MK leaves his Caping manuever is one of the few legitimate mindgames in Brawl.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
In fact, it does show the godly approach. The first use of this attack, as I describe, shuts down Santi's projectile spam (his best bet against MK), and puts Dojo in control until he messes up the edgeguard.

You all have to remember that I, personally have never argued that this will dominate MK's game. I've only argued that it will make MK dominate the game overall, and the two primary reasons I think so are shown in the video I linked: an approach which completely negates and shuts down brickwall defenses that many characters use to control the match, and an unpunishable way to bypass the respawn invincibility.

This move on its own isn't entirely broken. However, MK with this in his arsenal is looking more and more broken to me. We still haven't seen it in a tourney, up against Snakes and the like, but based on that video, I don't predict I'm going to like what I see when that happens.
it shows "a good approach", but not the godly approach that we have previously been discussing.

He never used the attack out of cape, and more importantly, he never attempted to force the guessing game that has been dominating the discussion here.


Granted, this use of the tech presented, given the rest of his game MIGHT be enough to warrant a ban, but it's a very fine line here, and this will require a great deal more testing then the other items that have been pointed out.


Which reminds me, I need to practice this technique more and get to some tournies.


But, is it unpunishable? No, obviously. Santi did some brilliant prediction that decreased Dojo's ability to approach with the move. I think the biggest flaw with D.I.C.K. is that the camera continues to follow MK while he's cloaked, and once people learn camera mechanics, you'll never be able to lose MK even if you can't see him. Sure, the invuln is still a problem, but I think that video demonstrates very clearly how, if not abused, D.I.C.K. is not the end-all-be-all move, and certainly won't give enough of an advantage to shut out every other character. Of course, we should get more test data. One video is NOT enough to make a final call... but I think that (again, if not abused) D.I.C.K. is a very valid move for MK.
Actually, the invincibility is the issue. The invisibility doesn't matter all that much.


Unpunishable, that's because Dojo didn't try out the biggest application of this move. The completely unpredictable attack out of cloak.
 

ftl

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
498
Location
Champaign, IL
What kind of effects would the cape and the fludd have on this technique? Just wondering.
I think none. For the duration of his D.I.C.K, MK does not exist, as far as interaction with anything is concerned. Though it would be really nice if that weren't the case.
 

Judge Judy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
1,638
The cape reverses DI now, remember? The cape kind of tags people now and it takes a certain amount of time for the tag to wear off. So would the cape reverse the controls of this technique?
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
it shows "a good approach", but not the godly approach that we have previously been discussing.

He never used the attack out of cape, and more importantly, he never attempted to force the guessing game that has been dominating the discussion here.
I don't think the attack is really the thing you're going to be looking to use, and that aspect isn't really Godly in itself. The Godly thing is that Santi couldn't use his projectiles to frustrate Dojo's approach. Maybe some wouldn't call it Godly, but Dojo showed how good it can be when properly applied.
 

Judge Judy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
1,638
Anyway, it'll be funny caping a Meta Knight trying to use this.

Watch as I become invincible! Nah, I don't think so. *Capes him* ****!
 

IrArby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
883
Location
Portsmouth VA
The vid is NOT a very good example of how useful this tech is or isn't. It shows us very little since Dojo rarely used it and fudged good oppurtunities when he did use it. Lets not set too much stock by this vid.

No offense to Dojo or anything btw. I just feel that the many shameless MKs of the world can abuse this much more.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,977
Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
I think this is more useful than I first thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0alFXJK5og

I made this video to demonstrate just how easy it is with the mote+chuk combo. Mashing up on the d-pad (set to smash, of course) is much easier and more reliable.

Watch how long I stay "shifted" (Or d.i.c.k.ed, whatever).
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
I don't think the attack is really the thing you're going to be looking to use, and that aspect isn't really Godly in itself. The Godly thing is that Santi couldn't use his projectiles to frustrate Dojo's approach. Maybe some wouldn't call it Godly, but Dojo showed how good it can be when properly applied.
I disagree, and the reason is, the attack is so close to risk-free and can be repeated endlessly, eventually allowing for a KO, and definitely allowing for an insertion.
Not attacking allows for possible countering with a reasonable percentage of accuracy, it's difficult to punish but impossible.

The attack on the other hand, covers itself, and it WILL hit in such high rates that getting punished for it is beyond unlikely.

Why go for an inferior version when you can use a superior one?


The cape reverses DI now, remember? The cape kind of tags people now and it takes a certain amount of time for the tag to wear off. So would the cape reverse the controls of this technique?
Yeah, but the DI is applied independently at each iteration of the tech (which is why you can do this tech endlessly and suddenly switch to a full upwards DI to attack somebody on a platform).


I'm almost positive that the initial DI isn't applied until after MK becomes invincible, but even if it is, the others are applied independantly so the DI switch will last one iteration of the tech.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
I just did it from FD left side to right side to back.

All I have to say:

If you can actually do this long enough to stall without getting tired, your insane :o I got tired after doing this a few times back and forwarth.. am I mashing up-cstick to fast? or what
 

shadowlink3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 12, 2006
Messages
433
Location
San Leandro, CA
I think this is more useful than I first thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0alFXJK5og

I made this video to demonstrate just how easy it is with the mote+chuk combo. Mashing up on the d-pad (set to smash, of course) is much easier and more reliable.

Watch how long I stay "shifted" (Or d.i.c.k.ed, whatever).
IDC, and well some like the GC controller much more than the nunchuck. if your using this to stall, you better have some stamina. if using to aprotch or whatever, then i think the cg would be better.
 

Xanthus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
187
Location
North America (East/Central)
Haha, this technique is beautiful. Should be allowed (to maybe slightly prolong the dimensional cape), just not to an excessive extent. I don't feel like reading 84 pages worth of replies... I might go back and read some though.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
I disagree, and the reason is, the attack is so close to risk-free and can be repeated endlessly, eventually allowing for a KO, and definitely allowing for an insertion.
Not attacking allows for possible countering with a reasonable percentage of accuracy, it's difficult to punish but impossible.

The attack on the other hand, covers itself, and it WILL hit in such high rates that getting punished for it is beyond unlikely.

Why go for an inferior version when you can use a superior one?
The attack itself is difficult to land if your opponent is moving around. Furthermore, heavy characters at low percent will recover fast enough to do something about it. The attack has its uses, but it is just as punishable and and predictable as not attacking. I don't mean to say it's bad, but rather that both aspects have their pros and cons. Use each ending as the situation allows it, and you'll get the added bonus that people won't know whether you're going to attack or pressure them.

At low percent, too, you really want to watch it. This move's base knockback is a mere 1159 mph. It gains power quickly because it has a Knockback Growth Rate of 32.33, but at low percent, you're still talking about rather small knockback, especially against heavier characters, who will take longer to get to KO range. Combine this with it's high trajectory, thus letting gravity counteract it more, and you get a rather poor knockback until well beyond 100%.

It's not a bad move, but it's not much of a KOer, especially if you plan on spamming it. Feel free to find ways to work it in, though. It's a very deadly means of approach, for sure.
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5,817
Location
Tempe, AZ
People said it trips the proxy mines right? >_> Do pitfals trip it and cause him to fall in? I just want to know :3
 

worldjem7

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
981
Location
Canada
if the attack out of the cape is so good then why haven't people been using it before this tech was discovered?

There's a lot you can do with MK's down-B without infiniting it that people haven't bothered to look into because they all wrote off the down-B as useless. In fact, a lot of the things we're talking about here can be implemented without having to use the infinite.

Attack people on platforms.
Edge guard
Attack out of down-B
teleport behind them to get around projectiles

the infinite does improve on these but, not by much.

There's plenty a MK player would rather be doing in a match.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
The attack itself is difficult to land if your opponent is moving around. Furthermore, heavy characters at low percent will recover fast enough to do something about it. The attack has its uses, but it is just as punishable and and predictable as not attacking. I don't mean to say it's bad, but rather that both aspects have their pros and cons. Use each ending as the situation allows it, and you'll get the added bonus that people won't know whether you're going to attack or pressure them.

At low percent, too, you really want to watch it. This move's base knockback is a mere 1159 mph. It gains power quickly because it has a Knockback Growth Rate of 32.33, but at low percent, you're still talking about rather small knockback, especially against heavier characters, who will take longer to get to KO range. Combine this with it's high trajectory, thus letting gravity counteract it more, and you get a rather poor knockback until well beyond 100%.
You have 2 DI tools to use and an attackable area slightly less then the top platform of battlefield. It also has almost no start-up lag, so it's really not hard to hit with IF you're practiced in the technique, regardless of whether your opponent is moving or not.

Sure, it's no less predictable (it is more predictable actually), but it's only punishable if you whiff or the opponent gets insanely lucky because you can hold it as long as you want without issue, oh yeah, really low percents too for the heavier characters.


Both exits cannot be reasonably predicted if the mk chooses a reasonable time pool to draw random exits, and DIs when going out. However, without the attack you get a couple of vulnerability frames that a really good opponent can potentially exploit, which means the best option is go right into safe Dtilt range.



It's not a bad move, but it's not much of a KOer, especially if you plan on spamming it. Feel free to find ways to work it in, though. It's a very deadly means of approach, for sure.
It's not INTENDED to Ko. Ever read this thread? Each point of damage ultimately contributes to that KO attack.


Ultimately, it's a damage builder and only an inferior option at really low percents. That's why it's so dangerous that spamming it WILL force people to take a ledge or a high platform, which MK can exploit so well it's not even funny.


if the attack out of the cape is so good then why haven't people been using it before this tech was discovered?
Because without the infinite it had tons of start-up lag, so it was predictable and could be easily punished. Granted, you were invincible during that start-up lag, but when the attack would come out was easy to predict, and it was rare a smart opponent would fall into these.

There's a lot you can do with MK's down-B without infiniting it that people haven't bothered to look into because they all wrote off the down-B as useless. In fact, a lot of the things we're talking about here can be implemented without having to use the infinite.

Attack people on platforms.
Edge guard
Attack out of down-B
teleport behind them to get around projectiles

the infinite does improve on these but, not by much.

There's plenty a MK player would rather be doing in a match.
He has better options to attack people on the platforms if he's not in infinite. The infinite invulnerability and sheer unpredictability of the move in infinite are why being able to attack people on platforms contributes to the brokeness. Without unpredictability it's useless.

Unless he's in infinite he has better methods to edgehog, with infinite it becomes devastating.

Again, attack out of vB is incredibly predictability without this move. You could use it against a falcon punch... that's it.

The ranges it's useful to teleport around projectiles... MK has better options at that range.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
People said it trips the proxy mines right? >_> Do pitfals trip it and cause him to fall in? I just want to know :3
No effect. To my knowledge, the only two moves that have any noticeable effect on MK while he's in this state are Luigi and Peach's FSes. Luigi's simply does incremental damage, and Peach's is the only move I know of that ends the cloak, causing MK to fall asleep. No, this doesn't work with Sing.

Too bad Peach's FS is worthless.

You have 2 DI tools to use and an attackable area slightly less then the top platform of battlefield. It also has almost no start-up lag, so it's really not hard to hit with IF you're practiced in the technique, regardless of whether your opponent is moving or not.

Sure, it's no less predictable (it is more predictable actually), but it's only punishable if you whiff or the opponent gets insanely lucky because you can hold it as long as you want without issue, oh yeah, really low percents too for the heavier characters.

Both exits cannot be reasonably predicted if the mk chooses a reasonable time pool to draw random exits, and DIs when going out. However, without the attack you get a couple of vulnerability frames that a really good opponent can potentially exploit, which means the best option is go right into safe Dtilt range.
I think I've said this already. Without the attack, you just need to space. With the attack, you need to time it. Both of them require practice to use properly. At low percents, you'll want to use the spacing-oriented non-attack variety to pressure your opponent and start doing damage. At medium to high percent, you can start mixing it up. This is pretty much what I've been saying the whole time. Just because Dojo didn't use the attack option in that video doesn't mean I think the attack is worthless, it's just not the best of the two in every situation.

It's not INTENDED to Ko. Ever read this thread? Each point of damage ultimately contributes to that KO attack.

Ultimately, it's a damage builder and only an inferior option at really low percents. That's why it's so dangerous that spamming it WILL force people to take a ledge or a high platform, which MK can exploit so well it's not even funny.
Well, you recognize that it's not a KOer. I must have misunderstood your previous post. Apologies for that.
 

Kayzee

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
310
Location
Benton Harbor, MI
if the attack out of the cape is so good then why haven't people been using it before this tech was discovered?

There's a lot you can do with MK's down-B without infiniting it that people haven't bothered to look into because they all wrote off the down-B as useless. In fact, a lot of the things we're talking about here can be implemented without having to use the infinite.

Attack people on platforms.
Edge guard
Attack out of down-B
teleport behind them to get around projectiles

the infinite does improve on these but, not by much.

There's plenty a MK player would rather be doing in a match.
The regular cape has too much startup time, not enough invincibility frames, is too short ranged, and has too much ending lag to be able to put effectively into tournament play. We already know the four things you mentioned above, except it's not a good projectile avoiding move unless you're really close to your opponent, and they've just shot their projectile.

Why don't you head back to the Falco forums?
 

worldjem7

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
981
Location
Canada
whoa kayzee I was just asking a question. why do you have to rip my head off?

I've used MK's cape effectively in tournament play before as a way to evade the opponent and mindgame them before this tech was discovered.

I was just pointing out that even without the infinite that it's still possible to do all the things that people keep saying the infinite is capable of doing.

So, in the end, if this does get banned, what will happen if someone tries to use down-B normally? Will everyone cry infinite and have him disqualified? This is what I fear will happen and then eventually people might just ban MK altogether.

P.S. just because I have a Falco icon there doesn't mean I main Falco.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
Edge guard
The normal down b is most often used for this, and edgestalling purposes. It's actually pretty good for that, since the moment your invincibility frames end, you're already grabbing the ledge. Then your drop before ledge invincibility wears off and repeat. There are very few vulnerable frames in that ledgestall.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,977
Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
I can see many uses for this, so long as you practice and learn how far MK is moving while invisible (and I'm quite certain someone could become ridiculously good at this with practice).

You could just keep your foe guessing until you pop out with the attack, then go stealth again and start the guessing game again. Realistically, a player who is dedicated enough could prolong the game for quite some time. I see it as being banned for this reason alone.
 

IrArby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
883
Location
Portsmouth VA
IrArby's latest thought on why this will probably get banned (after testing in tournaments ofcourse):

When wobbling was discovered, the ICs had recently undergone a huge lift in the tiers (thanx Chu!), yet they still didn't make it into the top 5 or anything like that. Still, this being Melee, High Middle Tier is still a good bet especially in particular matchups. Anyone who knows anything about Wobbling or plays ICs knows that Wobbling is pretty particular about its setup. You have a small very punishable grab range and other characters avoid getting grabbed by ICs on general principle anyway.

So ICs a good, not Broken character (high mid tier if I remember correctly) with their one situational infinite got the banhammer on Wobbling in Major Tournaments. I won't go into why Wobbling got banned but my point is compare ICs pwness with Wobbling to MK pwness without Caping in their respective games and theres still a world of differnce. MK pwns without it. Competitive play would degenerate because of this tech, IMO ofcourse.

You may start flaming . . . NOW!
 

gojira345

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
190
Flames.

MK is already amazing. I don't know why people gush when he gets a new tech, or snake does.

I just groan.
 

metaXzero

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
2,586
Location
Under the ground.
IrArby. As already said, D.I.C.K./ghosting/IDC has to actually prove itself broken in tournaments before a legitamate ban takes place.

And Wobbling is no longer banned (hasn't been banned for awhile I think). :)
 

shadowlink3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 12, 2006
Messages
433
Location
San Leandro, CA
well i am sure no1 has a move in the game that can make you never to be hit, if you have, as a person massive stamina in your arms, then i will have to question you.
 

Arikie

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
228
Location
Roseville CA
when people talk about meta knight attacking out of his cape do they mean the attack that happens when you hold a as you come out of the cape or just any other move?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom