As usual, the vast majority of non-Meta-players want to auto-ban it without discussion, the vast majority of Meta-players don't want it ban.
Meanwhile, out of the few of us who actually analyzed the situation objectively, I believe the majority of us want it banned, so that's something at least.
Pretty much, the tech is completely anti-competitive as a stall, and and defeating it as an approach is equivalent to dodging the Dragoon.
The moral of the story is that people are way too biased. If something like this was discovered for Zelda, I'd call for a ban too. It's called wanting to preserve the Competitive viability of Smash.
Same here, I'm a Zelda secondary by the way, and she sees only a little less use then my Marth. Yet, having a technique that is this utterly broken... now way.
I'm sorry, "It's harder to do"? Wow, horrible.
Yeah, this excuse always cracks me up.
If people can take advantage of a few frames of vulnerability, and get complex ATs like praying into muscle memory, given enough practice, they will be able to do it for 8 minutes certainly.
They'll also certainly be able to use it as an approach, which is only slightly less broken.
Bla bla, difficulty to enforce. (No, seriously, this will be my default response to people who've obviously not bothered with that aspect of the debate from now on)
Actually, this is a bit of an issue because it's a bit difficult to notice when he's extending it for short periods.
Still, complete banning is discrete, and it shouldn't be too hard to find a concrete ban criteria that is enforceable.
Please do. Wear a stamp of approval lettered "Approved by Yuna" while you do it. I want my name involved with this great endeavour.
Do I get a stamp of approval? If this tech remains legal, I'll just use MK as my main and abuse it until somebody finally bans it.
Tsk, tsk, you will be forever branded a Yuna fanboy for that.
Well, actually, it doesn't quite work like that, it's got ending lag. Still, it's great for punishing a wrong guess.
I'm almost regretting that we blew the lid on this now. We should've waited 'til after EVO, allowing an army of Meta-Knights from SWF to swoop in and take the entire Top 20 by using this move. Of course, EVO might have disqualified them all through subjective judgment calls...
I doubt they'll even look at our opinions... plus their rules say nothing about using it as an approach, I see no reason against using it to win evo as an invincible approach, who's with me?
Yah, you'd only have to be standing around doing nothing. If Meta-Knight's close to you, you have four options:
* Shield
* Spotdodge
* Roll
* Do nothing
If Meta-Knight decides to just let the cape, you'll have won the mixup and can now punish him since you're standing around doing nothing. If he does it right next to you, you can also let go of your shield (though you will just have diminished it).
If he attacks you while you're just standing around, you lose. If you spotdodge or roll and he intercepts it, you lose. If you shield and he does nothing, your shield will diminish for no good reason, you lose.
This mixup is more of a "Get less screwed over by Meta-Knight" technique.
Pretty much, whatever you do you have to put it in place BEFORE MK releases his attack. Otherwise, you get hit. But if you don't do it right before he attacks, to the point that he doesn't realize you're doing it, then he'll punish you in ending lag.
Again, it's basically the dragoon all over again. Only shield works as well. MK can attack at any random time, but if you do ANYTHING that isn't perfectly timed with his attack, you're gonna get hit. Realistically, it's probably less then a 1% chance of dodging against a good player, unless you're INSANELY skilled at the Tomi aspect of video games (aka, mindgames).
We have already have one person who can do this after only two days. Another one has been able to do it for 2-3 minutes at a time, but that was yesterday and who knows how far they've come by now? Would you like to wait 10 days and see how many they (or "we" if I feel like mastering this for BS:ing purposes) number by then?
Pretty much... I'm sure, given a few days, people will accomplish 8 minutes. Given a few more, people will be able to do it reliably.
If the US Supreme Court can decide to judge what pornography is/isn't based on judgement, I fail to see why tournament organizers can't use judgement calls on this issue. Tournament organizers should have bylaws in place to protect the decisions they made. It's the competitors choice to compete in that tournament, so they have to play by their rules from the beginning.
Which has always been my caveat with the supreme court... things like that.
I see no reason why we should imitate the court's errors.
Competent gaming organizations such as the United States Chess Federation have no problem making judgement calls concerning rules through their tournament directors, and bylaws exist to protect the tournament director in their decisions. As a rule the competitor will err on the side of caution concerning rule violation, knowing full well that a judgement could nail them if they don't. They can't complain, as tournament director's have the final say - period. I'd say the USCF doesn't exactly struggle, either, even with its 416 page rule book.
Which discourages creativity in strategy, it's actually things like that which made me decide not to take up chess competitively.
Again, why imitate their error?
Irrelevant. The topic here is judgement calls, not different laws within different organizations. The point that different gaming institutions can competently handle judgement calls is significant concerning the game (Brawl) under scrutiny. There is nothing substantial that sets SSBB apart from other games whatsoever concerning the topic of judgement calls and rule enforcement.
Yes, it's just as foolish to use in chess as in Brawl.
Ranking up there with the most horrible supreme court decisions, along with the "we can't define it, but we know it when we see it" obscenity decisions.
I'm sorry but the criteria is so FANTASTICALLY vague that you could argue anything is or isn't pornography.
Here's the real reason why they do things like this, by not defining things precisely, the give the judiciary more power in the long run. I've done an extensive study of the supreme court cases, and their pragmatism generally amounts to them leaving themselves room to exercise control.
If it is a potential issue then define camping and stalling in the bylaws.
The problem is, no definition of either is really discrete. Suddenly, the best tactic becomes one less then the rule. Until you make it so low that it covers strategies that aren't intended to be either.
Ah, ok. I understand; however, there's one more thing I would address.
If this move is proven to be broken -- and Metaknight joins Akuma and Gill in the god tier -- why doesn't MetaKnight just get banned altogether? You relieze that by banning this, you are cherry-picking an obviously broken character, right? You're pretty much saying, "MetaKnight we can not allow you to grow as character because of how good you are". Are you going to ban every advanced tech disovered for Metaknight? But, on the other hand, you're going to allow other characters to grow and use new AT's when they're discovered? I've said it before and I will say again: If this breaks the game, you have to ban MetaKnight. Furthermore, it need to be proven broken in a competive scene before we can deem it as such. A move is not game breaking until it breaks the game.
This technique is so good that if it was discovered on ANY character, Zelda, TL, Gannondorf, whatever, it would be banned.
All it needs are the attributes of being broken.
Without this technique, he's not broken enough to warrant removal AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME. As the metagame matures, it might be obvious that he functions equivalently to Old Sagat, which seems like a distinct possibility.
Still, that's a LONG way off (SF 2 Turbo was being played competitively how many years before the Japanese tournies soft-banned him?), but always, character bans are the last resort.
Realistically speaking, like Yuna said, if Akuma being broken was because of one or more character-specific glitches that were impossible to do by accident, then, they would've been banned. Not the character.
, then sudden death came and she did it again, and then bombs dropped. 
