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MetaKnight Infinite Dimensional Cape - hope you enjoy

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xXZeroXx

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Thanks, Mr Moo.
Well, IT works on Metaknight too, If your opponent has 2% more than you, you can stall him too, wether he uses it or not xD. So, please, you knew what was he saying.
 

Yuna

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metaknight...
"If a character/technique/strategy is so good it makes the only viable character in the game that same character or 1-2 characters who can stand up to said characters (as in "not get horribly destroyed"), it gets banned." (Paraphrasal)
 

NESSBOUNDER

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K, so...I changed my controller settings so that L was set to special. It makes doing this a lot easier, activating down B with your left hand and strumming the c stick with your thumb. My record's 8 seconds.

But I don't think it's physically possible to do it for 8 minutes. The lactic acid build up in your thumb and arm will slow down your movements.
 

Magus420

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K, so...I changed my controller settings so that L was set to special. It makes doing this a lot easier, activating down B with your left hand and strumming the c stick with your thumb. My record's 8 seconds.

But I don't think it's physically possible to do it for 8 minutes. The lactic acid build up in your thumb and arm will slow down your movements.
That's why you use both thumbs/arms to flick the c-stick so you only need to move each thumb at half the normal speed and is far less tiring.
 

Omni

You can't break those cuffs.
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Last time I checked, I'd already addresed that point. You can, with the naked eye, tell when someone is using it to stall since they're chainthrowing them past the threshhold beyond which they have to KO their opponent.

With this, you cannot (with the naked eye).
You're silly.

The naked eye can see that only one character is on the screen. Not to mention, people can look, see, and hear when anyone is slamming their c-stick up in one direction for long periods of time.

Beyond the threshold of KO'ing your opponent? What measures this threshold? Is there a certain % for each character? Is it stage dependent? Trust me; it's not common sense. I'd feel safer cg'ing someone to 300% before throwing them while others may feel 150% - 200% is fine.

Last time I checked, pausing a match isn't illegal. If a person feels that they are being stalled, couldn't they pause and request a spectator?
 

En.Ee.Oh

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btw i don't think this should be banned



i just wanna see metaknight players use this and still lose


ROFL
 

Pierce7d

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You're silly.

The naked eye can see that only one character is on the screen. Not to mention, people can look, see, and hear when anyone is slamming their c-stick up in one direction for long periods of time.

Beyond the threshold of KO'ing your opponent? What measures this threshold? Is there a certain % for each character? Is it stage dependent? Trust me; it's not common sense. I'd feel safer cg'ing someone to 300% before throwing them while others may feel 150% - 200% is fine.

Last time I checked, pausing a match isn't illegal. If a person feels that they are being stalled, couldn't they pause and request a spectator?
Uh, generally there is a set limit determined by the TO on whether or not continue to infinitely grab and jab exceeds threshold of reasonableness. This doesn't require any type of heavy debate, only the TOs call on the first stock, and doesn't require extensive consequences. TO says you've gone too far, KO the foe, and then he sets a limit on it for the next stock. This can be used at anytime, and for other subjective purposes.

And of course we can tell if the technique is being used. The point most of us are trying to make is that it's far too open-ended and subjective to tell whether it's being used to STALL, which is illegal in tourney play.

I also don't believe pausing is completely illegal if a TO's involvement is necessary.
 

Taiki

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So over the past 2 days I've been reading this read, I've commented once and been promptly ignored, This move is ridiculous. Anything I could say, and would have, has been mentioned before so basically I'm here to offer one tiny nugget of insight.

This technique is unstoppable in teams.
Also this technique requires no pre-existing condition.
In my opinion these two reasons alone should constitute an instant ban.


All chaingrabs/infinites/combos/whateverhaveyou have had pre-existing conditions before they can be executed. Whether it be a wall, getting a grab off, missing a tech, or connecting with a certain move. But metaknights DC tech (does this have a name I skipped about 20 pages because it got repetitive, I vote for ghosting, good job whoever came up with that.) requires no pre-existing conditions besides he starts on the ground (or can teleport there, I don't play metaknight I've only seen the tech used.) , problem with that is its unstoppable. Metaknight can dimension cape from the get-go cape around score one hit and stall the rest of the game (to those who say its impossible, try using a wii-mote and nunchuck as Pierce pointed out)

Most other techniques in brawl to my knowledge can be stopped in teams while both teammates are alive (If you get stuck in one it's your teammate fault....get a new one) Since this is unstoppable it needs to meet with the banhammer. No testing no waiting to see its impact in a tourny before issuing a widespread ban. It needs to stop now.

Edit: i claim this second page in the name of the banhammer.
 

Demon-oni

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o.k., I'm getting sick of this kind of talk. Let's think logically for a second here. I'm going to pinpoint every bad spot of this tech, right now. First of all, it's actually hard to do. No noob at a tourney will win because of this because he probably won't have the reflexes. You need to be good to use it, and even better not to use it wrong. 2. Even if you can do it, there's no possible way to keep it going forever, possibly not even very long, without customizing your controller someway, and I'm pretty sure that's banned, right? 3. This tech is only really good stage situational. Final is the only great stage for this tech. Any stage with a platform you can hop on and punish when they're arm lets out. 4. It's hard to be accurate with it. Sure, you can't see him, but neither can he, so he sometimes has to approximate where he's gonna pop. A good mk won't kill himself off the edge, but if he pops to close or the pop attack misses, he's punished by a smash. 5. There's no way he can edge hog with this in a match, it's too risky and easy to over shoot with the extended teleport. I'll admit, this is a good tech. It makes his down-b better to use, and can help him indefinately, but let's face it people, it's no ice climber's chain throw. It won't upset the match.
 

Demon-oni

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So over the past 2 days I've been reading this read, I've commented once and been promptly ignored, This move is ridiculous. Anything I could say, and would have, has been mentioned before so basically I'm here to offer one tiny nugget of insight.

Also this technique requires no pre-existing condition.


Edit: i claim this second page in the name of the banhammer.
Yeah, other than having a prosthetic arm. This tech causes so much stress on your arm it isn't funny. No one could keep this going for a minute, not even straight, without some special controller (BANNED). Then you can punish them. Also, no pre-existing condition. Some what true. To use it, not so much. To use it with the pop attack, yeah there is. It requires you to be on the same ground as them. So any place other than Final D is safe from the pop attack. If your worried about them stalling the match for time out, don't worry, their arm will let out and you can punish with a smash then, it won't take too long. And if you gonna say something to the extent that Final D is an instant win for meta-knight, then the same goes for D3 and Delfino for counter picks.
 

Taiki

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Demon-oni to adress your first post

1: Any technique can be done by anyone given enough effort time and practice.

2: This technique requires timing not spamming. Spamming upsmash with the c-stick can get the timing right but it's easier to just hit the c-stick with the right timing effectively lengthening the time you can do this technique.
Off topic: By the way what tournaments do you go to where they don't let you customize controls, its incredibly strange and gimps certain players because they play with tap jump off. (If its common practice outside the east coast then wtf?)

3: This tech isn't stage situational, so far the only safe place is the top of battlefield and they just makes it a game of patience. You can use it anywhere and they can use it forever (technically).

4: You don't have to be accurate with it. It's a stall or a mindgame, and point is your invisible and invincible you can't wait around until you think they won't shield and stab them. There is no tell indicating how much more time there is left until Metaknight throws the attack. He could throw it immediately or 3 minutes from now when you turn around to talk to somebody out of boredom.

5: Practice with a technique makes it perfect.

This technique is worse then the IC throws because IC needs to grab you and they both need to be present to constitute a 0-death combo. This can be done anytime anyplace for any amount of time and sets the game clock against you.

Edit: If you meant special controller in your first post then yea thats banned Everywhere, wiimote-nunchuck makes this easy though.
 

The Slayer

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Taiki took the words right out of my mouth. I was going to post that, but at least the point is across. This move is dangerous when some one perfects it. As much as I would want to see how far this move will take people forward, it'll most likely get banned anyways.
 

Pierce7d

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o.k., I'm getting sick of this kind of talk. Let's think logically for a second here. I'm going to pinpoint every bad spot of this tech, right now. First of all, it's actually hard to do. No noob at a tourney will win because of this because he probably won't have the reflexes. You need to be good to use it, and even better not to use it wrong. 2. Even if you can do it, there's no possible way to keep it going forever, possibly not even very long, without customizing your controller someway, and I'm pretty sure that's banned, right? 3. This tech is only really good stage situational. Final is the only great stage for this tech. Any stage with a platform you can hop on and punish when they're arm lets out. 4. It's hard to be accurate with it. Sure, you can't see him, but neither can he, so he sometimes has to approximate where he's gonna pop. A good mk won't kill himself off the edge, but if he pops to close or the pop attack misses, he's punished by a smash. 5. There's no way he can edge hog with this in a match, it's too risky and easy to over shoot with the extended teleport. I'll admit, this is a good tech. It makes his down-b better to use, and can help him indefinately, but let's face it people, it's no ice climber's chain throw. It won't upset the match.
I'm not even going to respond to this, because I've already addressed EVERY SINGLE ONE of these points.

Your lack of confidence in the accuracy and skill of good competitors is completely inaccurate and foolish, and does not in any way reflect the metagame, and difficultly of performance does not at all make a technique less banable. If it's not impossible to be mastered by a human, it will be.
 

DarkVampire

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Hax!!! I Call Hax!!! Ahahahahahahahahasdfkhasdl; Kfaj;sdl Fkasdl;k Fja

Im Freaking Out. Y Nintendo? Y?????
Asdfa Sdf Asdf Asd Fasd Fasd Fasd Fas D
 

Demon-oni

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tell you what mookie? We'll let this be banned, BUT, you first have to put a a video of you doing this for 7 minutes straight. Yeah...that's not gonna happen, your arm would explode before then. It's not like this tech doesn't have problems too, and if you thinks that's all, i've got a few more if you want to hear them.
 

Quez256

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I'm not even going to respond to this, because I've already addressed EVERY SINGLE ONE of these points.

Your lack of confidence in the accuracy and skill of good competitors is completely inaccurate and foolish, and does not in any way reflect the metagame, and difficultly of performance does not at all make a technique less banable. If it's not impossible to be mastered by a human, it will be.
^^ What he said.
 

Demon-oni

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To address your points Taiki:

1. True

2. Yes, there is a timing, but it's still fast. Still fast enough to make your arm crap with a minute or two
Off topic Re: I meant custom controller, which, yeah it is banned.

3. If you don't think your safe on Lylat, Yoshi's, and Smash, then you obviously don't know how to jump while on the platform. You're safe while you do that, and if he lets go while you do that, fast fall attack him, the warp animation is too slow to do it again that fast, unless your Lucario. And if it's a game of patience, you'll win. The mk user will go insane from his arm cramping before you start to lose interest of where he's gonna pop.

4. If it's a stall, it'll be obvious and you can dq him from the match. I'm not stopping the ban on the stalling part from it. If it's a mind game, well so is most everything in brawl, depends who thinks more ahead.

5. True, but if it's done for this reason, then why complain.

Also, I want you ALL to think of this situation. A match is going on. A meta-knight gets a slight lead and manages to pull off a 7 minute IF cape. Now, wasn't that pretty obvious it was a stall. DQ the opponent obviously. Next one. He does a IF cape but does a pop attack on you followed by an up b for a kill. Was that stalling? No, no DQ. I think it's obvious when mk's use this to stall. IF you guys want to ban it, fine, but i think that it should be an auto DQ for anyone who uses it as the LAST move of the match, to prevent the time out bs effect. That, or obvious stalling. So here'd be how i'd rule it. Anything over 5 seconds or it being the last move of the match is and instant DQ. If he uses it repeatedly for 4 seconds each time, it's stalling, DQ. See, i made it really obvious, didn't I?
 

adumbrodeus

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Unless I am mistaken, both of the people above you believe it should be banned.
Yes, but overswarm is suggesting that it only warrants banning as a stall, which means that if somehow we can decouple the infinite stall from it, it would still be a legal approach.

We're pointing out that it's also an insurmountable approach, because it forces you to either take a ledge/platform (ps. only top platform of battlefield or something as high works) or play a guessing game with the MK player that you have a better chance of winning the lottery then winning.

And sometimes, you don't have the option of taking the ledge/platform, even if you do, it's an enormous strategic liability to be forced to do so.


As was said before, how can a technique that forces you to take a ledge/platform or take damage not be broken, the tactical ramifications are just mind-numbing.

o.k., I'm getting sick of this kind of talk. Let's think logically for a second here. I'm going to pinpoint every bad spot of this tech, right now.
Go ahead...

First of all, it's actually hard to do. No noob at a tourney will win because of this because he probably won't have the reflexes. You need to be good to use it, and even better not to use it wrong.
Nobody cares, we're not particularly worried about noobs taking top level competitions. We're worried about a semblance of balance in top level competitive play.

Having good match-ups against the majority of the cast is one thing, having 90-10 match-ups against the entire cast is quite another. Once you're compitent with it, this tech creates an insurmountable advantage.

2. Even if you can do it, there's no possible way to keep it going forever, possibly not even very long, without customizing your controller someway, and I'm pretty sure that's banned, right?
If it took me a day to do it for a minute, I'm sure it won't take long for myself or others to get it up to 8 minutes. And it doesn't need to be held for more then 15 seconds to create an impossible guessing game.
3. This tech is only really good stage situational. Final is the only great stage for this tech. Any stage with a platform you can hop on and punish when they're arm lets out.
Lol... no. Almost every platform in the game is within this tech's sphere of influence. That also means it's quite possible to use this tech to platform jump.

However, if you get to a platform that high... MK just doesn't do the strike, therefore has almost no ending lag, and you're above him. That's a VERY bad position against MK.

4. It's hard to be accurate with it. Sure, you can't see him, but neither can he, so he sometimes has to approximate where he's gonna pop. A good mk won't kill himself off the edge, but if he pops to close or the pop attack misses, he's punished by a smash.
Given enough practice, people will learn, the camera moves with you so, it's relatively easy to keep in mind. All you really have to do is keep in mind how much you've tilted the controller and for how long. I'm already accurate to the point where I can hit a dashing opponent almost every time, except sonic (so far).

5. There's no way he can edge hog with this in a match, it's too risky and easy to over shoot with the extended teleport. I'll admit, this is a good tech. It makes his down-b better to use, and can help him indefinately, but let's face it people, it's no ice climber's chain throw. It won't upset the match.
....

Yes he can, easily.


Yeah, other than having a prosthetic arm. This tech causes so much stress on your arm it isn't funny. No one could keep this going for a minute, not even straight, without some special controller (BANNED). Then you can punish them. Also, no pre-existing condition. Some what true. To use it, not so much. To use it with the pop attack, yeah there is. It requires you to be on the same ground as them. So any place other than Final D is safe from the pop attack. If your worried about them stalling the match for time out, don't worry, their arm will let out and you can punish with a smash then, it won't take too long. And if you gonna say something to the extent that Final D is an instant win for meta-knight, then the same goes for D3 and Delfino for counter picks.
*bolding added

I can keep it going for a minute straight. Others can keep it up for two minutes already. People will find ways to do it for however long they need to, because that's what competitive gamers DO.

And 15 second is more then enough to make an impossible guessing game so it's irrelevant.

And no, plenty of stages other then final destination aren't safe from the pop-out attack, you can DI MK's pop-out, including up. That's actually WHY the tech works. With that, he goes high enough to hit most platforms. Unless it's equal to Battlefield's top platform or higher, he can hit it.

Of course, if you go that high against MK you're in an immensely bad position.

So most places it's quite effective.

tell you what mookie? We'll let this be banned, BUT, you first have to put a a video of you doing this for 7 minutes straight. Yeah...that's not gonna happen, your arm would explode before then. It's not like this tech doesn't have problems too, and if you thinks that's all, i've got a few more if you want to hear them.
As was pointed out before, that IN NO WAY deals with the issue of it being a perfectly viable approach that, no matter what your counter-move you have a better chance of winning the lottery then beating it, because you have to predict the attack, and if you predict wrong, you get punished.

You have one chance, and your opponent has chances equal to the number of quarter seconds he can hold the technique, until he actually uses the attack...

No, just no.



Regardless, have you seen the melee competitive techs? Check out pillaring and praying, and other such techs. This tech's timing is nothing compared to those, and it's only difficultly is it's repetitive.

Repetitive things get easier with additional practice... ask any athlete.


2. Yes, there is a timing, but it's still fast. Still fast enough to make your arm crap with a minute or two
Off topic Re: I meant custom controller, which, yeah it is banned.
Not... really, I've held it for a minute with only minute discomfort.

3. If you don't think your safe on Lylat, Yoshi's, and Smash, then you obviously don't know how to jump while on the platform. You're safe while you do that, and if he lets go while you do that, fast fall attack him, the warp animation is too slow to do it again that fast, unless your Lucario. And if it's a game of patience, you'll win. The mk user will go insane from his arm cramping before you start to lose interest of where he's gonna pop.
You seem to be missing something... you have to predict the attack, because the attack frames come out as soon as he appears and there are no prior indications. And since he's already in warp, it's instant.

So he just catches you one of the times when you're on the ground, he's got plenty of the time, especially since his height for this attack (with both directional influences) is just below the top battlefield platform.

Of course, if he just leaves and chases you in the air he's already at a massive advantage.

4. If it's a stall, it'll be obvious and you can dq him from the match. I'm not stopping the ban on the stalling part from it. If it's a mind game, well so is most everything in brawl, depends who thinks more ahead.
So, he gets to force you into the position that is best in the game for MK, and you think it's just a mindgame?

And even as a mindgame, others have a reasonable shot for both players, this is weighted s much against the opponent it's not even funny.

Also, I want you ALL to think of this situation. A match is going on. A meta-knight gets a slight lead and manages to pull off a 7 minute IF cape. Now, wasn't that pretty obvious it was a stall. DQ the opponent obviously. Next one. He does a IF cape but does a pop attack on you followed by an up b for a kill. Was that stalling? No, no DQ. I think it's obvious when mk's use this to stall. IF you guys want to ban it, fine, but i think that it should be an auto DQ for anyone who uses it as the LAST move of the match, to prevent the time out bs effect. That, or obvious stalling. So here'd be how i'd rule it. Anything over 5 seconds or it being the last move of the match is and instant DQ. If he uses it repeatedly for 4 seconds each time, it's stalling, DQ. See, i made it really obvious, didn't I?
How do you write all these contingencies into the rules? Because if they're not explicitly there, people have every right to use a tactic. People's judgment you say? That's subjective, we're trying for cut and dry criteria, otherwise, how can people know they violated the rules?


And over 5 seconds? You just decided that it can't be used as an approach. What's repeatedly? 3 times? 4? What if you use an attack in between?

Also, if you have a number of seconds, this REQUIRES a judge with a stopwatch at every match.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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But even if this is banned, how will it be enforced? If Yuna is to be believed, it's almost impossible to have someone monitoring the match. What if the MK player denies using said tactic if nobody's watching? If having an adjudicator for Ness/Lucas vs Marth matches is too much effort...then surely it's the same for Metaknight. Let's just ban the use of his down B altogether while we're at it. It's not like anybody uses it. *sarcasm*
 

Demon-oni

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personally, i dont really care anymore. He can already get around spammers and he doesn't need it to edge hog. All it really does in my opinion is pressure the opponent up which can easily be done with a good hyphen smash, so i really see no point to this move anymore.
 

adumbrodeus

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But even if this is banned, how will it be enforced? If Yuna is to be believed, it's almost impossible to have someone monitoring the match. What if the MK player denies using said tactic if nobody's watching? If having an adjudicator for Ness/Lucas vs Marth matches is too much effort...then surely it's the same for Metaknight. Let's just ban the use of his down B altogether while we're at it. It's not like anybody uses it. *sarcasm*
The issue was, for a time limit, you'd need a stopwatch. Because a person would be able to say, "he did it for x seconds" then somebody else could say, "he did it for y seconds", and then the guy could say "I did it for Z seconds", who is to be believed? We need a stop-watch in order to do that.

On the other hand, saying "any extension of the vB's invincibility time is banned" is pretty easy to enforce, just listen to the c-stick, it's pretty difficult to miss, and will be completely obvious to everyone nearbye, so you can call over a judge. That's what happens with most violations.


The moral of the story is, "banning anything up to a time limit requires a judge".


personally, i dont really care anymore. He can already get around spammers and he doesn't need it to edge hog. All it really does in my opinion is pressure the opponent up which can easily be done with a good hyphen smash, so i really see no point to this move anymore.
No point to being able to travel while invincible... lol good one!

Hyphen smash? Get really, that move is way too punishable (it's a follow-up, punisher), try dtilt, you know the safe move that outranges even Marth.


It's evident why you don't realize the applications of this move and don't think it can be pulled off for extended periods, you just don't know the game well enough.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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...besides stalling/running.

@adumbrodius

Fair enough. I'm starting to see the danger that this technique poses due to it's stalling. I mean, imagine a Metaknight who does mach tornado > cloakstall > mach tornado > cloakstall etc.
 

adumbrodeus

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...besides stalling/running.

@adumbrodius

Fair enough. I'm starting to see the danger that this technique poses due to it's stalling. I mean, imagine a Metaknight who does mach tornado > cloakstall > mach tornado > cloakstall etc.
Well, that's PART of it...

It's also an impossible to counter approach, because, as I said before, you better be in shield or invincability frames when he chooses to come out, because the hitboxes appear before any indicator. He can also launch the attack instantly, so any vulnerability frames will be punished. So, he chooses a time to attack, and you better guess what that time is, because if you move too early, he attacks duing post-lag, if you move too late, the hitboxes come out before you can react.

Basically, you'd better have the same second picked out to counter as he does, otherwise you get hit, and what are the odds of that? He has all day to stay in cloak. Even if you limit the number of seconds, he still has at least double the number of seconds, so if it's 30 seconds, you have a 1 out of 60 chance of guessing right, every time he uses it.

And, if you do something punishable he can skip the strike for minimal lag and do something nastier, like shuttle loop.


The stall is bad enough, but even without it, the approach is enough to make him Akuma tier, yeah, it's just THAT good.
 

Clevr

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I don't think I'm doing it correctly...

1) Stand on stage.
2) Down - B.
3) Keep holding the Control stick down.
4) Tap the C stick up repeatedly, as you hold down the Control stick.
5) Run around in the infinite dimensional cape!

Is that right? Whenever I try it, it doesn't work.
 

adumbrodeus

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I don't think I'm doing it correctly...

1) Stand on stage.
2) Down - B.
3) Keep holding the Control stick down.
4) Tap the C stick up repeatedly, as you hold down the Control stick.
5) Run around in the infinite dimensional cape!

Is that right? Whenever I try it, it doesn't work.
Your timing with the c-stick is probably off, it's very delicate.

Also, remember, you have to DI to run around with it.
 

Yuna

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The naked eye can see that only one character is on the screen. Not to mention, people can look, see, and hear when anyone is slamming their c-stick up in one direction for long periods of time.
Ok... deep breath. Can the naked eye tell if I'm doing it for 2.99 seconds or 3.05 seconds when the threshhold is 3.00 seconds?

Beyond the threshold of KO'ing your opponent? What measures this threshold? Is there a certain % for each character? Is it stage dependent? Trust me; it's not common sense. I'd feel safer cg'ing someone to 300% before throwing them while others may feel 150% - 200% is fine.
Depends on which tournament you to go and at which point in time it was. It's universal for all characters and all infinites. It's not stage dependant. Who says it's "common sense"? Most tournament just set the rule up for "Once they hit 999%, you have to kill them" which wasn't really the best way to combat it but was a clear boundary nonetheless.

Last time I checked, pausing a match isn't illegal.
Yes it is. Especially to mess up your opponent's timing.

If a person feels that they are being stalled, couldn't they pause and request a spectator?
How about they just shout for one instead of pausing the game and messing up their opponent's timing?

"Oh, I'm about to combo you into a KO:ing move."
"Whoops, pause!"
 
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