Meta Knight Q&A Thread

[Kaffei]

IMO doesn't matter
M2K plays with it on
Others play with it off

I play with it on

 

[!!!RM!!!]

I like it just for the ease of Up B-ing out of shield. And its not like MK needs to Utilt enough to turn it off.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, if you've been using it off because you're used to, you can just keep it like that, but you should know you must have a way to Up-B OoS.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

How2Shuttle Loop OoS without tap jump?

 

[BadKarma]

I've been trying mk w/ tap jump and I like it more. I'll just use it for him though probably.

 

[ぱみゅ]

How2Shuttle Loop OoS without tap jump?

Having different imputs for jump (I use L) or Special (I have Y for specials, X for jump), or rapidy sliding the thumb from Y to B, or w/e.
I¡'ve been using it off like forever because it use to screws my DI...

 

[Albert.]

I play with default controls and tap jump on for UpB OoS

If you can't figure out how to Utilt without jumping though in this configuration then you need to work on your techskill.

The thing that F***s me up about tap jump is accidentally jumping while doing multiple uAirs.

 

[Dojo]

Use cstick. Problem solved.

 

[TheTantalus]

The olimar matchup, what am i doing wrong

Here is my thought process

Can't out camp, his pikmin, even if i continue to destroy them, will put on damage slowly but surely. and dimish my moves in the process.

Which means I have to be on offense. So approach options:

dair camp- punished by usmash or uair in between. Even up b sometimes
dodge land to grab- punished by pivot grab
tornado- punished by pivot grab
walking ftilt- punished by block and grab or sh nair apparently wins (just found this out)
walking dtilt- punished by pivot grab off a pshield. Usually i can do this safely, but following up is impossible. they just run or roll away. Otherwise punished.
sh fair- punished by block and usmash, or just grab if not in range.
dash grab- this is a big no no. There is enough time to react to mk dash.
dash attack- see above
dodge in dsmash- block and grab
dodge behind to anything- punished by utilt.

Even if i try to mix up these options, seems like they always have enough time to react to them, ESPECIALLY if they just wait for me under a platform.

Now as for punishing olimar

Dsmash on shield- how do i punish this? he just does another one or pivot grabs. i don't have a move fast enough to get in.
pivot grab- only option is timing a dtilt?

do any of olimars moves lag, ever?


I'm clueless atm. Time to watch some videos

 

[S0L3R]

The olimar matchup, what am i doing wrong

Here is my thought process

Can't out camp, his pikmin, even if i continue to destroy them, will put on damage slowly but surely. and dimish my moves in the process.

Which means I have to be on offense. So approach options:

dair camp- punished by usmash or uair in between. Even up b sometimes
dodge land to grab- punished by pivot grab
tornado- punished by pivot grab
walking ftilt- punished by block and grab or sh nair apparently wins (just found this out)
walking dtilt- punished by pivot grab off a pshield. Usually i can do this safely, but following up is impossible. they just run or roll away. Otherwise punished.
sh fair- punished by block and usmash, or just grab if not in range.
dash grab- this is a big no no. There is enough time to react to mk dash.
dash attack- see above
dodge in dsmash- block and grab
dodge behind to anything- punished by utilt.

Even if i try to mix up these options, seems like they always have enough time to react to them, ESPECIALLY if they just wait for me under a platform.

Now as for punishing olimar

Dsmash on shield- how do i punish this? he just does another one or pivot grabs. i don't have a move fast enough to get in.
pivot grab- only option is timing a dtilt?

do any of olimars moves lag, ever?


I'm clueless atm. Time to watch some videos

I just play smart and focus getting him offstage. Once he's there and you learn to gimp him, he'll more than likely not make it back. This may seem obvious but DON'T GET GRABBED. This is just the best way I can explain how I do it. However watching videos is good, but playing against some good Olimars will really help you learn the match-up. Also Nair ***** pikmin.

 

[Kaffei]

The olimar matchup, what am i doing wrong

Here is my thought process

Can't out camp, his pikmin, even if i continue to destroy them, will put on damage slowly but surely. and dimish my moves in the process.

Which means I have to be on offense. So approach options:

dair camp- punished by usmash or uair in between. Even up b sometimes
dodge land to grab- punished by pivot grab
tornado- punished by pivot grab
walking ftilt- punished by block and grab or sh nair apparently wins (just found this out)
walking dtilt- punished by pivot grab off a pshield. Usually i can do this safely, but following up is impossible. they just run or roll away. Otherwise punished.
sh fair- punished by block and usmash, or just grab if not in range.
dash grab- this is a big no no. There is enough time to react to mk dash.
dash attack- see above
dodge in dsmash- block and grab
dodge behind to anything- punished by utilt.

Even if i try to mix up these options, seems like they always have enough time to react to them, ESPECIALLY if they just wait for me under a platform.

Now as for punishing olimar

Dsmash on shield- how do i punish this? he just does another one or pivot grabs. i don't have a move fast enough to get in.
pivot grab- only option is timing a dtilt?

do any of olimars moves lag, ever?


I'm clueless atm. Time to watch some videos

well m2k vs logic
he just spams nado until his shield is tiny
then he does grab stuff and then olimar dies

o.o

 

[!!!RM!!!]

When dair camping react to where he is and try to predict/react to when he's gonna attack and air dodge through it. Is he in his shield waiting to Usmash, waiting in front of you, etc. Dair camping someone who can punish dair on shield isn't that great an idea anyways. >__> Oli's Uair OoS has a two frame advantage on MK's next Dair(and since its on shield he's gonna buffer it too). Dair camping is just a bad idea when your opponent can either break in between Dairs or punish one on shield.

If Olimars are really Pivot grabbing you then just stay off of the ground when approaching him every now and then.

Even perfectly spaced Ftilt is pretty unsafe. Olimar has 8 frames to grab that ****. :/

Dtilt on shield is punishable by grab. Try rolling towards his pivot grab and grabbing/Ftilting him out of his 29 frame grab if he chooses to pivot grab you for some reason.

You're SH Fairing wrong. Autocancelled Fair has a -2 frame advantage on shield(after shield drop, but is -9 otherwise) and Oli's Usmash comes out on frame 8. If he tries to Usmash you OoS then you should get a free Ftilt or grounded shuttle loop. His grab comes out on frame 11 and is Dtilt/Ftilt-able after SH Fair even though his grab comes out 1 frame faster than your tilt(Dtilt and Ftilt will reach him before his pikmin reaches you).

Dash Attack is a bad idea since he can just pivot grab it. Try dashing towards him and see what he does to react to it. If he runs away then he's definitely gonna pivot grab. Just SH over the pikmin and air dodge into buffer dash grab(or Fair if you see fit).

If they're reacting to them then punish their reactions. >__> It can be done with a little research.


"Down Smash
Hits on: 10
Ends on: 38"

Not sure why you're having problems with this. You have around what, 28 frames to grab/Nair/Dair/Fair/Dtilt/Ftilt/Dsmash/shuttle loop/Tornado? The Olimar boards' frame data thread is probably missing IASA frames on it or something... But from what I can tell it's completely punishable by nearly anything MK has.

Oh and Pivot Grab can't beat Tornado when its at least two inches off the ground. Just don't use grounded nado against Oli.

 

[ぱみゅ]

As much as the post is useful and appreciated, I hate talking about frames.
Seriously, it is great for getting ideas of what stuff is safe or not, but talking about it in perfect frame statistic (-2 frame advantage, SRSLY?) is quite annoying.
/whine

Any tips for improving reflects/keep them sharp?

 

[Kaffei]

When dair camping react to where he is and try to predict/react to when he's gonna attack and air dodge through it. Is he in his shield waiting to Usmash, waiting in front of you, etc. Dair camping someone who can punish dair on shield isn't that great an idea anyways. >__> Oli's Uair OoS has a two frame advantage on MK's next Dair(and since its on shield he's gonna buffer it too). Dair camping is just a bad idea when your opponent can either break in between Dairs or punish one on shield.

If Olimars are really Pivot grabbing you then just stay off of the ground when approaching him every now and then.

Even perfectly spaced Ftilt is pretty unsafe. Olimar has 8 frames to grab that ****. :/

Dtilt on shield is punishable by grab. Try rolling towards his pivot grab and grabbing/Ftilting him out of his 29 frame grab if he chooses to pivot grab you for some reason.

You're SH Fairing wrong. Autocancelled Fair has a -2 frame advantage on shield(after shield drop, but is -9 otherwise) and Oli's Usmash comes out on frame 8. If he tries to Usmash you OoS then you should get a free Ftilt or grounded shuttle loop. His grab comes out on frame 11 and is Dtilt/Ftilt-able after SH Fair even though his grab comes out 1 frame faster than your tilt(Dtilt and Ftilt will reach him before his pikmin reaches you).

Dash Attack is a bad idea since he can just pivot grab it. Try dashing towards him and see what he does to react to it. If he runs away then he's definitely gonna pivot grab. Just SH over the pikmin and air dodge into buffer dash grab(or Fair if you see fit).

If they're reacting to them then punish their reactions. >__> It can be done with a little research.


"Down Smash
Hits on: 10
Ends on: 38"

Not sure why you're having problems with this. You have around what, 28 frames to grab/Nair/Dair/Fair/Dtilt/Ftilt/Dsmash/shuttle loop/Tornado? The Olimar boards' frame data thread is probably missing IASA frames on it or something... But from what I can tell it's completely punishable by nearly anything MK has.

Oh and Pivot Grab can't beat Tornado when its at least two inches off the ground. Just don't use grounded nado against Oli.

Really nice frame stuff
please post more

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Just putting stuff out there. >_> Frame data goes a long way until you have to worry about the range on your attacks and spacing(oh wait its meta knight). But I did kinda get carried away with the perfect frame data stuff. I just didn't know how to put it otherwise. And he did say he didn't know how to punish stuff on shield... all that is is frame data. since everything's buffered.

At least Kaffei appreciates it. I think... not sure if he's being sarcastic though. Q-Q

 

[Pitzer]

Frames are amazing, I honestly would like to know more on them, beside's Pit's Frame data since I know all the important stuff already

 

[Kaffei]

Just putting stuff out there. >_> Frame data goes a long way until you have to worry about the range on your attacks and spacing(oh wait its meta knight). But I did kinda get carried away with the perfect frame data stuff. I just didn't know how to put it otherwise. And he did say he didn't know how to punish stuff on shield... all that is is frame data. since everything's buffered.

At least Kaffei appreciates it. I think... not sure if he's being sarcastic though. Q-Q

no i understand it so when you explain it like that it is very clear
idk how to calculate it myself so it's nice to have someone do the work LOLZ

 

[!!!RM!!!]

A very general rule of thumb I've learned with MK is that nearly everything is punishable on shield with either grab, ftilt, dtilt, or Fair OoS. Of course there are exceptions, but some character's entire movesets are punishable on shield. Ex. Snake

That's just from looking at frame data.

But things on shield aren't everything though. But if you can get someone to do nearly anything on shield you get a free grab/tilt.

And thanks for the support Kaffei. :D

 

[Kaffei]

wat about GSL oos

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Invince on frame 5, but hitbox out on frame 8. It comes out 2 frames faster than Ftilt, Dtilt, and Fair OoS.(they all come out on frame 10) But the range on it is around half the range the other three have. So if you need more speed than a tilt but more range than a grab then its a great option OoS.

 

[C.J.]

Wait, what? Snake is stupidly punishable on shield.
Ftilt1 is about -24ish on shield. -17ish after shield drop. (However, it can be canceled into ftilt2 so it's more dangerous to punish)
Ftilt2 is -20ish on shield. -13ish after shield drop
utilt is -30ish. -23ish after shield drop (Yep, Ganon can (maybe almost) fsmash snake's utilt on shield)
fsmash is -35ish. -28ish after shield drop
bair is -33ish. -26ish after shield drop
dash attack is -30ish. -23ish after shield drop
Jab3 is -35ish. -28ish after shield drop

This is assuming roughly 5 frames of combined shield stun/shield hitlag for disadvantage. So, even if you add another almost 10 frames of hitstun/hitlag to the attack, MK still can punish... everything super easily. MK/ZSS/Marth/Wolf are pretty much the only characters that MK has to even think about punishing. (Marth's aerials/dtilt (although those are still super punishable by SL), wolf's bair and FH AC fair (both also super punishable by SL), ZSS dsmash and sideB that aren't on PS as well as her dtilt (almost as "safe" as MK's))

(Smash lab needs to finish their frame maps so we have concrete data instead of me having to estimate shield stun/hitlag)

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Oops. I meant punishable on shield not safe. Didn't notice that...

Random Marth weirdness: The first hit of Marth's SHFF Nair is bizarre. O_o Somehow it has a +14 advantage on shield. I really have no idea how that's possible. I'm guessing its a typo or something.

But all of Marth's moves besides SHFF Fair and first hit of Nair are punishable on shield. Regular Fair on shield though is like -25 or -28. You could actually buffer a dash jump OoS and then Uair marth from below in that time.

 

[C.J.]

Welp, ignore me then.

 

[TheTantalus]

The frame data is perfect, lol at not wanting to talk about it. It's how I know what can punish and what can't. That info is perfect, I will put those techniques into practice and see what I come up with. Thanks much

 

[Nic64]

Why is it that you can't outcamp him? Pikmin toss is fairly slow, you should be able to bat most of them away on reaction and sometimes you can still nair them off before they do anything. If he comes at you with anything else...that means he isn't pivot grabbing, which removes a lot of the difficulty in of itself. Kill any purples that come your way if you can too but don't expose yourself for it, you could possibly use that as a bait as olimar players will always be looking for any holes you present at mid range, do it early in the game then fake it and wait for the dash grab

I think the MU ultimately comes down to getting clutch gimps and keeping him off balance as much as possible, olimar is a monster when he's grounded

 

[!!!RM!!!]

You could also try staying high above him on a platform. Like the middle one on battlefield where you're too high to SH Uair since Oli has a huge blind spot above him if he can't uair. Then he's forced to either go farther to the sides to toss pikmin at you or come up from below you and FH or DJ Uair. If he comes near you on a nearby platform you can just FF air dodge his up B or whatever and Ftilt or grab. You can Dair camp his pikies from that high fairly easily and you can GSL his Uairs OoS. All you have to do is react and make him play even more aggressively than he already has to.

But that's if you want to out-camp him. Aggressive Tornado is better though imo since eventually your shield might get low if you try to GSL 5 Uairs in a row. >_< You could also try Fairing his Pikmin until he has only a few left and try to punish his eventual plucking. If he plucks like 4 at a time it'll take him roughly 2/3 a second. That's when his options are fairly limited and you could break in with a Nado.

 

[MARLX]

What is the match up between meta knight and falco?

 

[Kaffei]

On neutral stages, I think it's even.
On stages like Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, & Norfair, I think Meta Knight has a solid advantage.
Overall, I think Meta Knight has a slight advantage because MK is better on more stages + can trap better.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Falco's kinda forced to play the laser game though since everything he has is punishable on shield besides side B and lasers. Oh and its probably useless, but you can tornado all his tilts and smashes on block. So the next time you're offstage and falco's throwing out angled ftilts... it might be worth a shot lol.

I'd say its about even. Although I think MK's advantages with counterpicks and wealth of onstage and offstage options compared to falco in this MU(grab, bair, B, side B) might make it around 60-40-ish.

 

[Player-4]

Falco vs MK is seriously like 50-50, they both gay each other hard.

And don't underestimate Falco on RC, it's not a bad stage for him.

 

[Nic64]

55:45 IMO, it is slight MK advantage but falco can be very gay and he wins on some stages, obviously everyone should know to ban FD by now

And I don't think RC is that amazing against him either but I'm weird and don't like that stage in general

 

[Kaffei]

55:45 IMO, it is slight MK advantage but falco can be very gay and he wins on some stages, obviously everyone should know to ban FD by now

And I don't think RC isn't that amazing against him either but I'm weird and don't like that stage in general

I don't like Rainbow Cruise either lolz

 

[Player-4]

Lol I never really liked Cruise until recently

 

[ぱみゅ]

I did never really liked RC.... IDK, I'm a stagelist liberal supporter, but I just don't like it lol

 

[Albert.]

Lol I never really liked Cruise until recently

Same here but It's just so **** against certain characters that I started using it.

Some people though practice Rainbow as their "Banning brinstar so I better practice the other one >_<" stage and they can actually be pretty decent "at" the stage. Rainbow can also force MK dittos which may or may not be good for you.

Just remember guys we still have Frigate, Halberd, and Delfino as good stages for MK and they aren't even considered the "super gay" ones.

edit:
RM & CJ Please post more frame data/option analysis.

It's good stuff lol

 

[KassandraNova]

You guys should learn to love cruise!!!

 

[Abel1994]

I dislike Cruis.

 

[C.J.]

Same here but It's just so **** against certain characters that I started using it.

Some people though practice Rainbow as their "Banning brinstar so I better practice the other one >_<" stage and they can actually be pretty decent "at" the stage. Rainbow can also force MK dittos which may or may not be good for you.

Just remember guys we still have Frigate, Halberd, and Delfino as good stages for MK and they aren't even considered the "super gay" ones.

edit:
RM & CJ Please post more frame data/option analysis.

It's good stuff lol

Ask me something specific and maybe later when I'm bored at work or procrastinating on hw. I'm not just going to go make a ton of frame maps though.

 

[KassandraNova]

Halberd is terrible for mk imo,
Ugh. Maybe its just me being terrible on that stage. D:
Delfino isn't bad, but you guys should really practice on rainbow, just learn the stage until your comfortable with it.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

imo the only thing halberd has going for MK is earlier GSL kills. Sharking is kinda gayed by the platform during the second transformation. :/